EPTViper makes a cloud so baneling can go to contact with no damages, with behind the dps of hydra. I think i'm going to try mec. And what about TvT guys? I'm totally lost in this match up, the mine seems too strong, just put them every where in the map.....I think raven have a good future, detecting mines and sniping tanks, but i wonder with what composition : bio or mech ?
The (HotS) Terran Help Me Thread Beta - Page 2
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Sprite825
France57 Posts
Viper makes a cloud so baneling can go to contact with no damages, with behind the dps of hydra. I think i'm going to try mec. And what about TvT guys? I'm totally lost in this match up, the mine seems too strong, just put them every where in the map.....I think raven have a good future, detecting mines and sniping tanks, but i wonder with what composition : bio or mech ? | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
And what about TvT guys? I'm totally lost in this match up, the mine seems too strong, just put them every where in the map.....I think raven have a good future, detecting mines and sniping tanks, but i wonder with what composition : bio or mech ? TvT is almost 90% reaper vs reaper with a coinflip who wins the 1vs1 fight. Blizzard try´s to make reaper viable in every matchup and it is in tvz but it ruins tvt because you need to get 1 rax tech lab. I tried to make reaper work in tvp but with the mothership core you need a second rax for marines and this dealys the CC so much. I have huge problems in tvp right now because Protoss can be incredible greedy because of their death-star-nexus-ability. And Oracle + dt builds are just too cheap and too easy to execute. Is there a hard counter to this? | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On December 10 2012 16:09 DeCoup wrote: Isn't opening with a defensive Marauder or two enough to hold the Reapers? With the range and armor they have i would have thought that was enough. What about with a couple of well positioned bunkers for the range and cuz Reapers cant dent them? The problem with that is if you do defensive marauders and or bunkers you have almost no way of knowing if there is just 1 reaper or more. What means you are far behind if he just builds 1 and expanding directly. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 10 2012 11:53 NKexquisite wrote: Masters Terran here -- Have people had any success with MMM + Hellbat vs Zerg when they go Roach/Hydra/Swarm Host? I've been getting raped every game when trying this out.. Is it a must to get tanks out vs this composition? There have been games when I havent even been able to take a 3rd base b/c Roach/Hydra/SH is so strong, they just contain you... Whats a good opener that people have found to be effective? Reactor Hellions? Just straight bio? Swarm host is actually damn good versus Terran. It buyes Zerg enough time to macro up.. I have found that 4-5 tanks can shut down basically any number of Swarm hosts. Then you need to either break wit via unsiege -> scan -> gogogo... Or you need to go around them and counter-attack. I tried Raven + 2-3 banshees as a "anti-sh" force, but it's shut down by hydras/muts, or even corruptors pretty hard. Very good opener is 1rax expo -> 4 hellions for scout/creepy deny/force lings -> few widow mines. This way, you can go for very fast 3rd + dual upgrades and you don't have to worry about roach or bling busts.. You can play very greedy vs Zerg using widow mines. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
and snipe bases and go home,because you find yourself sieged and it goes to baserace when you usually lose. TvP still almost the same,but worse hehe.In blink maps like CKingdom no way to stop it without marauders,but as we see its usually all in,so if you stop it,you win.Late game is gettinw worse and worse.Mech still so bad to move and hard to expand and keep.Siege tanks dont move,but Protoss siege unit,the Tempes can even fly!!!Lot of vikings+thors+hellbat is he way to go.Tanks totally useless.Widow mines only for early agression.DT drops and zealots in late game still killing too much.You cant defend and move out.Meanwhile the P got 5-6 bases+5-6 cannons and hellions cant harras.IF Protoss goes to mass air,nothing can kill Carriers+TEmpest.Not even ghosts help,because Tempest outranges tanks and they can storm your Vikings.I am watching lot of streams and Terran cant make Mech work. TvZ.Almost same issues here.Bio doesnt work because of Infestor or Viper.MEdivacs help a lot,but still spore+spines+some lings deny drops.The new Ultra helps a lot to kill the BIO.Roach+Hydra+Infestor/Viper is so cost efficient vs BIO..Mech is OK,but Vipers deny tanks and new Roach+Hydra are better and quicker.I dont fear so much the Swarm Host.Its like Siege tank and you can drop on it or go arround and kill them and they need a lot of them as well to become a danger for you and we need tanks.The old reactor hellion+banshee still ok,but I see T masters going for lot of marines+hellions trying to deny the 3rd.Widow mines are again for early agression and die too easy in late game. As I see it,we need a different reaper.Make him with bonus vs Armored.So he will be good vs Protoss and Roaches.For now is too good vs T and does nothing vs Z and P.Its fast but too escape from speedlings you need the upgrade and it is in the Factory.Too late.Maybe an ability like the Oracle for killing workers for energy will be the answer and when not used he stays antiarmored??? Tanks and air vs P still an issue.It seems like every P unit is faster then Terrans.Hellions are quick,but too weak and do nothing in their actual state.Dont know how to improve this,the only thing I think is some kind of ability for tanks to shoot and move while sieged???It will be too imba in the other MU,but with some kind of cooldown and limited time maybe??? | ||
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Swish 41
Germany154 Posts
On December 10 2012 07:38 dronescout wrote: With the new buff to medivac healing has anyone experimented on Terran bio coupled with Hellbats since heal effects them too (looking at it like firebat with no stim). And does anyone think it's a viable playstyle? Yes. I think Hellbats are fucking INSANE in TvZ combined with Medivacs. Try dropping hellbats behind the Mineralline and watch them kill 50 Lings. I would say Fire... Hellbats are probably the best new Unit in HotS for Terran, its really good in all Matchups. But I really don't know how to use the WidowMine, expect like 2-4 for a little bit of base/drop defense. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On December 10 2012 19:31 Dvriel wrote: + Show Spoiler + The actual TvT opening is at least one reaper, followed bay Marauder+shells.Two marauders+one reaper scout and stop anything.If he goes for banshee+cloak,go for ebay+turrets as always.The safest BO is the 1-1-1+expand.Anything else is too greedy.BIO still doesnt work in TvT.Medivacs are buffed but they are only for drops.With turret rings and mines defending bases a Mech or BioMEchWoL player win.You just cant engage and maps dont allow you to go arround and snipe bases and go home,because you find yourself sieged and it goes to baserace when you usually lose. TvP still almost the same,but worse hehe.In blink maps like CKingdom no way to stop it without marauders,but as we see its usually all in,so if you stop it,you win.Late game is gettinw worse and worse.Mech still so bad to move and hard to expand and keep.Siege tanks dont move,but Protoss siege unit,the Tempes can even fly!!!Lot of vikings+thors+hellbat is he way to go.Tanks totally useless.Widow mines only for early agression.DT drops and zealots in late game still killing too much.You cant defend and move out.Meanwhile the P got 5-6 bases+5-6 cannons and hellions cant harras.IF Protoss goes to mass air,nothing can kill Carriers+TEmpest.Not even ghosts help,because Tempest outranges tanks and they can storm your Vikings.I am watching lot of streams and Terran cant make Mech work. TvZ.Almost same issues here.Bio doesnt work because of Infestor or Viper.MEdivacs help a lot,but still spore+spines+some lings deny drops.The new Ultra helps a lot to kill the BIO.Roach+Hydra+Infestor/Viper is so cost efficient vs BIO..Mech is OK,but Vipers deny tanks and new Roach+Hydra are better and quicker.I dont fear so much the Swarm Host.Its like Siege tank and you can drop on it or go arround and kill them and they need a lot of them as well to become a danger for you and we need tanks.The old reactor hellion+banshee still ok,but I see T masters going for lot of marines+hellions trying to deny the 3rd.Widow mines are again for early agression and die too easy in late game. As I see it,we need a different reaper.Make him with bonus vs Armored.So he will be good vs Protoss and Roaches.For now is too good vs T and does nothing vs Z and P.Its fast but too escape from speedlings you need the upgrade and it is in the Factory.Too late.Maybe an ability like the Oracle for killing workers for energy will be the answer and when not used he stays antiarmored??? Tanks and air vs P still an issue.It seems like every P unit is faster then Terrans.Hellions are quick,but too weak and do nothing in their actual state.Dont know how to improve this,the only thing I think is some kind of ability for tanks to shoot and move while sieged???It will be too imba in the other MU,but with some kind of cooldown and limited time maybe??? From a zerg point of view in ZvT, uses mines only to delay the third and defend against mutas, no real point to eat up supply and factory time in them past that. Mech is easy to deal with currently, with roach hydra viper. Bio is brutal with bf hellbats though, a drop heavy style butchers ling play, I'm having lot of trouble dealing with delayed tanks bio coupled with a lot of harass and the terran expanding behind. Once he's comfortable on three bases he goes double factory and finally tanks, on some maps at that point mines can be useful again, one or two on some common pathways allow you to detect runbys and clear packs of lings. I've ran into that a couple of times and it's the hardest style I've met so far, hope it gives you some ideas. | ||
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ETisME
12497 Posts
I am a pure bio terran and struggling when I try out Mech. This is a replay that I have went mech and it's a prime example how I lose the game. http://drop.sc/283787 A few things that I don't know well enough: Muta timing. (as you can see in the replay lol) How/when to do bfhellion harass. I feel like if I move out my hellions, my tanks will be completely exposed. When can I grab the 3rd and 4th. Building placement to stop ling runby. Is that map BAD for Mech? I have no idea how to secure my 5th when it is so far away. A lot of bad plays here and there but it was really fun to play. So I am hoping some can give me some advice so I can do more mech games | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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HTOMario
United States439 Posts
On December 10 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote: TvT is almost 90% reaper vs reaper with a coinflip who wins the 1vs1 fight. Blizzard try´s to make reaper viable in every matchup and it is in tvz but it ruins tvt because you need to get 1 rax tech lab. I tried to make reaper work in tvp but with the mothership core you need a second rax for marines and this dealys the CC so much. I have huge problems in tvp right now because Protoss can be incredible greedy because of their death-star-nexus-ability. And Oracle + dt builds are just too cheap and too easy to execute. Is there a hard counter to this? You can counter reaper with reactor hellion, marauder concussive, marine marauder, bunkers, widow mine. | ||
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HTOMario
United States439 Posts
On December 13 2012 00:20 Tenks wrote: What is the "new standard" opener for TvZ these days? It seems porting over the standard CC into Hellion/Banshee has some holes in it now that hydras are much more frequently used since that unit performs well against both. I'm having some issues of Roach/Hydra off 2 bases crashing into my base when I have a handful of Hellions and a Banshee. It seems to hit right around the time my additional barracks are finishing and I'm just starting tank production. Standard bio build order is the 1 rax expand into 3rd command center double upgrades with hellion banshee harass into mass marine marauder medivac micro. Most commonly seen on dragons stream. Something I use is 1-1-1 expo into harass or 1 rax expo into 3 factory harass. | ||
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hiru
United States69 Posts
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
On December 08 2012 17:56 Everlong wrote: I got inspired with the Zerg thread and I think it's time to make one for Terran. As a sterter question: How can I safely open mech play TvP? I just can't get it to work. For me, the biggest problem is msc/blink. You need to always watch out for DT's or Stargate play.. I think the range of aggresive builds Protoss can execute now is too wide for Terran to have safe macro (mech) opening. Widow mines are simply not an option, because Stalkers just run around your base with msc and kill every single one. I'm kinda lost here.. Maybe reactor mines, siege tank + siege tech right away? But then again, you need to watch out for DT's and stuff.. Ideas? I have played A TON of tvp mech games in both hots and wol What i used to do in wol is 1 rax fe and then play reactionary based on what my opponent did. 1 base allin -> go bio with 3 rax stim and +1, delay mech transistion. 2 base tech -> get a reactor on rax, get factory started asap. when factory is done make armory tech lab and starport. then make a thor, since you will be able to defend pressure by mass repairing it. get a third when money allows (you will have 400 a little after factory is done.) 2 base allin -> if you can scout it in time, do 3 rax bio instead of mech, however if you can't: get the thor asap and buy time by making more bunkers/massrepair. In hots its alot harder to open mech, mostly because you need to have enough anti air to deal with msc/oracles, and that kinda removes the viability of doing fast tanks/hellions/banshees. so far i haven't found a solution, so i mostly just do 1 rax fe -> 3 rax starport -> 10 min mmm push -> mech when i do mech builds However i can recommend you to play bio in tvp since mech is straight up underpowered. If you choose to do mech anyway, i can recommend you to do mid-lategame hellion based pushes with tank/thor support, since the new hellions are really really good. I feel like alot of mech tvp players make the common mistake of thinking they don't have to play aggressive since mech needs to get a 200/200 max of gas heavy units in tvt and tvz to function. However this isen't the case since protoss can play costeffecient against terran high tier units. By attacking you force him to use his gateways instead of making additional immortals/carriers/whatever units that counter mech very very well. Also the common respond from protoss is to take a fast greedy third, which you can punish with something like this. about me: + Show Spoiler + i am masters on eu and na, and was gm in hots like 2 months ago.(haven't played it alot recently) | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On December 13 2012 05:05 hiru wrote: Can anyone give me a basic opening to play mech in tvt? The actual metagame in TvZ from WoL:reactor hellion expand into cloak banshee,trying to deny the 3rd of Z and you transition to anything you want,but for mech go for early armory and 2-3 factories+lab to get Thors before 11 minute,when mutas usually come.Mostly Zergs go for muta play to stop banshees and hellions,so you need some turrets and the Thors.LAter you add the factories you can and go full mech. | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On December 10 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote: TvT is almost 90% reaper vs reaper with a coinflip who wins the 1vs1 fight. Blizzard try´s to make reaper viable in every matchup and it is in tvz but it ruins tvt because you need to get 1 rax tech lab. I tried to make reaper work in tvp but with the mothership core you need a second rax for marines and this dealys the CC so much. I have huge problems in tvp right now because Protoss can be incredible greedy because of their death-star-nexus-ability. And Oracle + dt builds are just too cheap and too easy to execute. Is there a hard counter to this? I actually just ran into the same thing TvP yesterday. Best opening vs this imo is reactor barracks + factory for widow mine. It holds off early msc aggression and lets you expand while setting up mine in the back vs ms core fly bys. You can then reposition mine later to defend vs oracle. 1 mine in each line will make toss think twice before using their ships. The next thing is to get a raven out relatively early and just push marine marauder medivac raven. Raven spots for dts and can use ppd. The game I tried this I lost because it was my first time playing vs new oracles and forgot to re-position my mine so i lost 15 scvs before my push, which made it a lot weaker. I guess the thing is if they invest so much in early oracles they wont have colossus out in time and medivac bio should be able to destroy everything else given detection. | ||
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hiru
United States69 Posts
On December 13 2012 05:45 Dvriel wrote: The actual metagame in TvZ from WoL:reactor hellion expand into cloak banshee,trying to deny the 3rd of Z and you transition to anything you want,but for mech go for early armory and 2-3 factories+lab to get Thors before 11 minute,when mutas usually come.Mostly Zergs go for muta play to stop banshees and hellions,so you need some turrets and the Thors.LAter you add the factories you can and go full mech. tvt though | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On December 10 2012 20:03 Swish 41 wrote: Yes. I think Hellbats are fucking INSANE in TvZ combined with Medivacs. Try dropping hellbats behind the Mineralline and watch them kill 50 Lings. I would say Fire... Hellbats are probably the best new Unit in HotS for Terran, its really good in all Matchups. But I really don't know how to use the WidowMine, expect like 2-4 for a little bit of base/drop defense. I've been doing this as well. I go standard 1 rax expand into 1-1-1 with hellion banshee and research caduceus (instead of cloak or just nothing). Then I just add more rax, reactor the starport, and get another factory for blue flame. Still working on the best ordering. You can trade really well with zerg as long as you split well enough. If banes don't kill the hellbats, they're very hard to kill with just lings. I haven't faced roach hydra though. I feel like that comp needs some siege tanks support still. I'm currently trying tankless mech in PvT. Mostly hellbat, thor, banshee and vikings if necessary, maybe a raven and lategame BCs. The combined upgrades actually make this is a kickass combo. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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