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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On November 19 2011 02:57 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 19:16 NrGmonk wrote:Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though. You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it.
Not to comment on who I agree with in this somewhat heated debate, but I'd like to make a specific point: iEchoic's style was revolutionary TvT and laid the groundwork for the Full Mech play that exists today, a lot of which opens in a similar fashion (viking/hellion). He revolutionized the metagame by demonstrating that the marine is not king, and showing off some spectacular ways to defend early pushes and allins by relying heavily on tech (banshees, hellions etc)
Although his specific build order is no longer used often, the core ideas that were developed in his playstyle underpin modern TvT mech, and if you watch a game of Full Mech vs Full Mech, the opening phases resemble two iEchoic-style players playing each other.
You can say what you want about him, but iEchoic demonstrated the viability of a hellion/viking composition in the early game at the highest level of play, and although I'm sure we'd have full mech TvT without him, it would have taken longer for it to happen.
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On November 19 2011 03:27 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 02:57 RoboBob wrote:On November 18 2011 19:16 NrGmonk wrote:Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though. You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it. 6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG. 2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries. 16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select 3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody 3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select I'm sure there's many more... My criteria are clearly listed at the top of the post. Guides are included solely based on how well they follow those criteria. As I've said before, a guide has to be more exceptional than usual if it's not "standard". The biggest reason I prefer "standard" strategies is that they're easier for me to vet. If a strategy is "out there" and I'm not as familiar with the matchup, it's harder for me to tell if they're viable at the highest level. And honestly the biggest reason I rejected all those guides is that they're not that well-organized, detailed, or well-written. For example, warden's guide isn't standard at all, but it WAS well-organized, detailed, and well-written. There's nothing personal about my decisions and I don't even understand how my decisions could be personal. About iechoic's guide: There's a lot of reasons that guide is there there - It was quite a big deal when it was first posted.
- It's very well written and organized.
- It was in the original thread I copied this from.
- There's honestly no better TvT threads and I didn't want to leave the TvT section blank.
That being said, if I add a "historical" section as people have suggested, I'll probably move that guide over. The TvP mech guide doesn't deserve to be in here though. It was in the original thread and I must have missed it while going through all the old guides. I'll remove that. As you might be able to tell, I was trying to be minimalistic with the thread so people could more easily find good quality guides. If you have an argument that a guide I didn't include is better than a guide I did include, it's more likely that I'll remove the worse guide than add the better one. I also don't understand why you feel like you have to flame me without first asking me why I did what I did. This thread took a deceivingly large amount of time to compile between finding good guides, reading/checking them all, and formatting. I've put a lot of work and thought into it and I don't feel like you've given me the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm doing.
The main reason I'm upset is that the old recommend guide thread actually has more guides for Terran than this one. And this thread doesn't list any of the new guides. Many of the Zerg/Protoss guides currently listed are of equal quality to the ones I posted above. I'd much rather have a wide variety of guides to choose from instead of only 1-2 per Terran matchup. I don't think guides should be excluded just because they're not as perfect or pretty as others.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 19 2011 06:34 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 03:27 NrGmonk wrote:On November 19 2011 02:57 RoboBob wrote:On November 18 2011 19:16 NrGmonk wrote:Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though. You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it. 6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG. 2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries. 16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select 3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody 3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select I'm sure there's many more... My criteria are clearly listed at the top of the post. Guides are included solely based on how well they follow those criteria. As I've said before, a guide has to be more exceptional than usual if it's not "standard". The biggest reason I prefer "standard" strategies is that they're easier for me to vet. If a strategy is "out there" and I'm not as familiar with the matchup, it's harder for me to tell if they're viable at the highest level. And honestly the biggest reason I rejected all those guides is that they're not that well-organized, detailed, or well-written. For example, warden's guide isn't standard at all, but it WAS well-organized, detailed, and well-written. There's nothing personal about my decisions and I don't even understand how my decisions could be personal. About iechoic's guide: There's a lot of reasons that guide is there there - It was quite a big deal when it was first posted.
- It's very well written and organized.
- It was in the original thread I copied this from.
- There's honestly no better TvT threads and I didn't want to leave the TvT section blank.
That being said, if I add a "historical" section as people have suggested, I'll probably move that guide over. The TvP mech guide doesn't deserve to be in here though. It was in the original thread and I must have missed it while going through all the old guides. I'll remove that. As you might be able to tell, I was trying to be minimalistic with the thread so people could more easily find good quality guides. If you have an argument that a guide I didn't include is better than a guide I did include, it's more likely that I'll remove the worse guide than add the better one. I also don't understand why you feel like you have to flame me without first asking me why I did what I did. This thread took a deceivingly large amount of time to compile between finding good guides, reading/checking them all, and formatting. I've put a lot of work and thought into it and I don't feel like you've given me the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm doing. The main reason I'm upset is that the old recommend guide thread actually has more guides for Terran than this one. And this thread doesn't list any of the new guides. Many of the Zerg/Protoss guides currently listed are of equal quality to the ones I posted above. I'd much rather have a wide variety of guides to choose from instead of only 1-2 per Terran matchup. I don't think guides should be excluded just because they're not as perfect or pretty as others.
All the zerg/protoss guides are either of superior quality to the guides you suggested or from the old thread and I'm on the fence about taking them out. I'm not going to put a minimum amount of guides per race. The terran guides are judged on the same level as the other races'. There just happens to be not as many good quality terran threads. And the difference between me and you is that I DO think guides should be excluded because they're not as perfect as others. Guides listed in this thread are the best and it should be pretty exclusive.
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On November 19 2011 20:25 Bad_Habit wrote:
did u just ignore me?
How did he ignore you? I think he explained pretty clearly in this thread why your guide isn't in here. There's a reason why monk is a blue poster and that's because he know what he's doing so instead of being rude you should thank him for the work he's put into remaking this thread.
Maybe if you ask in a nicer manner for some constructive criticism on how to improve your formating and organization of your guide you'd be able to fix the problems(and get added) instead of just arguing for the sake of it.
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thats what i did, mb u read all post befor posting some random bullshit
and i think i didnt ask you to get involved even tho it might be ur hobby
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Thank you so much for creating an updated version of this thread. I used to visit the old one a lot, but it was falling terribly out of date. Much appreciated!!!!
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United States8476 Posts
On November 19 2011 22:03 Vandroy wrote:How did he ignore you? I think he explained pretty clearly in this thread why your guide isn't in here. There's a reason why monk is a blue poster and that's because he know what he's doing so instead of being rude you should thank him for the work he's put into remaking this thread. Maybe if you ask in a nicer manner for some constructive criticism on how to improve your formating and organization of your guide you'd be able to fix the problems(and get added) instead of just arguing for the sake of it.
This. I have nothing more to say to you.
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So, what about the guides I posted?
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United States8476 Posts
On November 20 2011 03:37 decaf wrote:
So, what about the guides I posted?
I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you.
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Aight. I always wondered how I add text with a scroll bar so I could make the BO look real nice, maybe you know how to do that, I just don't find the option..
Plus a real fast robo bay to do a colossi timing is pretty all in and should be treated as such. I didn't add it, since I haven't played against it very often so I'm not sure if mutas can hold it (although I typically fail with it, but maybe that's just me not having played against it a whole lot), but the spire will be the right choice anyways. I'll add it if I have the time. About the format, I think I'll remove some spoilers because it's not nice too look at it, but that's personal preference I guess.
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Wish liquipedia had more guides such as the ones mentioned in the OP..Thanks for putting all of these together!
HoTS is going to hit the Strategy section and Liquipedia like a bomb..
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On November 20 2011 06:42 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Wish liquipedia had more guides such as the ones mentioned in the OP..Thanks for putting all of these together!
HoTS is going to hit the Strategy section and Liquipedia like a bomb..
Oh man, I just read this and I'm literally shaking with excitement at the thought =p.
Really looking forward to HotS
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On November 20 2011 06:28 NrGmonk wrote:I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you.
Hasn't it been more or less settled that the majority of readers prefer the use of spoiler tags as opposed to walls of text though ?
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United States8476 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:50 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 06:28 NrGmonk wrote:On November 20 2011 03:37 decaf wrote:
So, what about the guides I posted? I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you. Hasn't it been more or less settled that the majority of readers prefer the use of spoiler tags as opposed to walls of text though ?
But not the overuse in his guide
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Cool thread. Thanks for this NrGormonk!
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I think this is a rather good new write up of the double Medivac drop. SImple, and effective:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267242
People have been pointing it out: There aren't many good terran strategy threads around. Makes me sad  There not enough Liquid Terran players or not enough good ones?
HoTS is going to hit the Strategy section and Liquipedia like a bomb..
With an already full user base, there WILL be a lot of experimenting in the first few months, agreed. I hope to see a lot more strategies be created.
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On November 20 2011 06:28 NrGmonk wrote:I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you.
I've changed the format a little bit and included your colossus example. that and the all in is the only 2 cases in which you don't go mutas vs robo though (thx for pointing it out, it occured to me after I had written the thread and I forgot to add it)
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EPT
