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On November 16 2011 19:27 Mofisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote:
you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included.
how about the community (viewcount), not the single opinion of someone in charge O_O
if you only wand bronzes to read this so they can improve then u should call it the "help bronzies thread". this beeing worked out by one single person (whom i 6pooled twice + a ton of his teammates) will always lead to bias : /
User was warned for this post
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United States8476 Posts
On November 16 2011 23:03 Bad_Habit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 19:27 Mofisto wrote:On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote:
you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included. how about the community (viewcount), not the single opinion of someone in charge O_O if you only wand bronzes to read this so they can improve then u should call it the "help bronzies thread". this beeing worked out by one single person (whom i 6pooled twice + a ton of his teammates) will always lead to bias : /
I don't remember you 6 pooling me ever or even playing you ever. You maybe have 6 pooled me once, but I assure you you didn't do so twice. Plus all you've done is incessantly bother me about it without giving any actual reasons why your guide should be here. Being rude to me is not a good way to get your guide here.
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judging the given facts =/= beeing rude
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United States8476 Posts
Stop bothering me please.
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I saw that you forgot to embed a link in the zvp section(timing is also misspelled in the same place) otherwise great work and thanks for taking the time I'm sure it will help alot of people.
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On November 17 2011 04:49 Vandroy wrote:
I saw that you forgot to embed a link in the zvp section(timing is also misspelled in the same place) otherwise great work and thanks for taking the time I'm sure it will help alot of people.
Cool, thanks, fixed.
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Big ♥'s monk for doing this, it's been sorely needed to get this updated. Can I request that the other timings thread be removed however? It's full of misinformation, and more importantly hasn't been updated since February of this year... :/
old thread
Again, many thanks!
Edit: oh, I'd like to second that idea from Mofisto. It definitely would be nice to have a deprecated 'historical' section of old stuff that's not quite applicable, but at some point was a viable build/strategy or whatnot, just for a historical perspective, but I'll leave that up to your discretion.
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On November 16 2011 23:21 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 23:03 Bad_Habit wrote:On November 16 2011 19:27 Mofisto wrote:On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote:
you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included. how about the community (viewcount), not the single opinion of someone in charge O_O if you only wand bronzes to read this so they can improve then u should call it the "help bronzies thread". this beeing worked out by one single person (whom i 6pooled twice + a ton of his teammates) will always lead to bias : / I don't remember you 6 pooling me ever or even playing you ever. You maybe have 6 pooled me once, but I assure you you didn't do so twice. Plus all you've done is incessantly bother me about it without giving any actual reasons why your guide should be here. Being rude to me is not a good way to get your guide here.
On November 16 2011 19:27 Mofisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote:
you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes What? Even in his own thread . Give over. At the end of the day my thread (when it was being updated) started having far too many recommendations, and was becoming a case of quantity over quality. He was right to sort the wheat from the chaff, and I hope he continues in this vein. At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included. nrgmonk- As a suggestion I think you might want to include a "historic" section with out dated threads which, while they are no longer 100 percent applicable, still include nuggets of information which could be useful for wider game knowledge. Secondly, and this is more vanity than anything else, it would have been nice to have a mention in the op, seeing as most of it was copied and pasted from my thread. Anyway, nice one for updating this thread mate
I'm concerned if, even him being a blue poster, this behavior is proper? He may have created the thread, but it is stickied for the use of the community, not because it was monk who made it. If this perspective isn't shared by others, then please explain why.
Your claim that he's in a better position than Bad_Habit may have the basis that monk is proven to be a valuable member in the strategy community, but having a higher knowledge of strategy doesn't make him better at judging which threads deserve to be included. Also, he did provide the reasons that he spent a lot of time on it, and that it took him "forever", thus him explaining he put a lot effort into it. Maybe monk and bad_habit discussed something in some PMs I am not aware of, but compared to Monk's, Bad_Habit gave a better argument, even if it is of a low quality, in comparison to a nonexistent one of Monk's.
On a minor note, is it proper to post something like "Stop bothering me" in a thread? Isn't that the kind of personal, unconstructive post supposed to be contained within the confines of PMs? Personal messages? Like I said earlier, it seems Bad_Habit has given more reason than Monk as to why his guide should be included. Even if Monk did tell him why he didn't include it through PMs, that does not justify him not explaining in this thread either. Such topics should be shared and discussed within the community, so we can be constructive and contribute properly to end up with the best quality list of recommended guides.
If Bad_Habit revealed through PMs he wanted his guide to be included, I don't see how it's not justified for him to repost his argument here (aside from the BM and him discriminating with the "you're just mad cus i 6 pooled you" comments), it being that his guide shouldn't be just excluded because it is about 6 pooling, which is looked down upon much of the community. In that sense, there is no justification for you to dismiss that, saying "Stop bothering me". Him re-posting his explanation in the public vs keeping it within PMs allows others to join in and possibly discuss the issue.
I hope I sound reasonable, because I sincerely do not think this kind of behavior is professional for TL, especially for a stickied thread whose purpose is to serve the community, not for an individual to take advantage of an opportunity to bring attention to certain guides, whether it is of ill intention or not.
However, if I, or anyone, is able to create a "Recommended Strategy Guide" without it being closed, my concerns/argument may be dismissed 
On November 16 2011 23:49 Bad_Habit wrote:
judging the given facts =/= beeing rude
Judging the facts does not necessarily mean you are being rude, but if you write in such a hostile or disrespectful manner, it is still rude. (It was rude of you to discriminate against monk and accuse him of hidden intentions that he didn't want to include your guide because you 6 pooled him twice, or so you say).
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Nice job Monk, very helpful. Pity there aren't more Terran guides on TL. Its really lacking in good generic macro based strategy.
Can I suggest removing "common and important timings" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189301. Its hugely out of date ie doesnt take into account supply depo before rax, rax build time change, warpgate time change etc etc. The basic openings/timings thread is also incredibly similar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400 but actually maintained and more comprehensive.
I don't want to get in the middle of this but, I do feel the 6 pool guide is better than some of the guides currently included. For example there's an old how to stop a 6 pool as protoss guide, that is far less comprehensive (and if a guide as narrow as the counter to a build deserves inclusion, surely so does the strategy itself). Then again I have no idea whether you have finished updating and filtering out strategies or barely started.
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On November 18 2011 14:13 FirstGear wrote:Nice job Monk, very helpful. Pity there aren't more Terran guides on TL. Its really lacking in good generic macro based strategy. Can I suggest removing "common and important timings" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189301. Its hugely out of date ie doesnt take into account supply depo before rax, rax build time change, warpgate time change etc etc. The basic openings/timings thread is also incredibly similar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400 but actually maintained and more comprehensive. I don't want to get in the middle of this but, I do feel the 6 pool guide is better than some of the guides currently included. For example there's an old how to stop a 6 pool as protoss guide, that is far less comprehensive (and if a guide as narrow as the counter to a build deserves inclusion, surely so does the strategy itself). Then again I have no idea whether you have finished updating and filtering out strategies or barely started.
I think the 6 pool guide is a nice resource as well, but I think it's rough organization is keeping it back. It would be much more helpful, convenient, and nice if, for example, at least the Build Order sections can list the steps of the build order with explanation before and after it, instead of jumbling it all together in one disorderly block of text xD
Also, I am concerned about the quality of the PvZ How to stop 6 pool guide. Please see my quote of me quoting myself
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. Show nested quote +The best way to do defend against 6 pool and also be better economically is just to build your pylon/gate hugging your nexus/mineral line, instead of at the ramp
This way if he comes with a 6 pool, your 2nd pylon you make will guarantee ur gateway gets the first zealot out, and at that point you just need a little micro to stack probes and go back and forth with your zealots
And if he doesn't 6 pool you, you can put your 2nd pylon and cyber/other2gates at your ramp later on; it will be there on time for any kind of speedling attacks
WhiteRa mentions this on one of MrBitter's videos
I'm curious though why more people don't do this. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really.
And again I would like to emphasize, I have seen no reason not to do this, and after all, this is what WhiteRa said. Maybe it's a bit too assuming but I think it should be safe to assume that WhiteRa knows what he's talking about?
If a 6 pooler makes 6 lings and then immediately starts droning and macroing, and you ended up making a forge and cannon and cut probes, your lead won't be nearly as great as it should be.
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I'm not sure about the 3 OC into Mech into Bio end game guide is very good. The beginning and explanation of how to play Mech is nice, but the end game into Bio still does not make sense to me; my arguments and reasonings are still left unanswered/countered in his thread =/
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On November 18 2011 14:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm not sure about the 3 OC into Mech into Bio end game guide is very good. The beginning and explanation of how to play Mech is nice, but the end game into Bio still does not make sense to me; my arguments and reasonings are still left unanswered/countered in his thread =/
You're right the end game part is a little weak, but you can poke holes in every guide currently up. But the early and mid stuff is good. Until someone writes a better TvZ 3 OC guide, its the best we've got. 3 OC is so popular right now that it really deserves recognition.
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On November 18 2011 14:41 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 14:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm not sure about the 3 OC into Mech into Bio end game guide is very good. The beginning and explanation of how to play Mech is nice, but the end game into Bio still does not make sense to me; my arguments and reasonings are still left unanswered/countered in his thread =/ You're right the end game part is a little weak, but you can poke holes in every guide currently up. But the early and mid stuff is good. Until someone writes a better TvZ 3 OC guide, its the best we've got. 3 OC is so popular right now that it really deserves recognition.
True, true. Even the best of guides won't be perfect >.< Not yet, at least :D
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United States8476 Posts
Ok why Bad_Habit's guide wasn't initially included:
- Content: As stated in the OP, guides with more standard play are more likely to be included. Guides have to be over the top for them if they're not of standard play.
- Format: Probably the biggest reason it wasn't included. Everyone's already touched on this.
- Professionalism: There's posts of 2 people who rage at the end of his "guide". This seems like more worthy of a blog than anything.
Btw most of these criterion can be found in the OP.
Now here's a list of things that did not further his cause after he asked:
- He gave no reasons to convince me otherwise except "I worked hard on it", which everyone could claim about their guides.
- Claiming that I'm biased because he 6 pool'd me twice and any teammates numerous times when I've never heard of him in my life. Now, he just made it personal.
The guides people mention that are worse than his 6 pool thread are all from the original thread I copied. I was very lenient about the threads I cut and I will probably cut some more in the future. In addition, I can assure you that they are all better formatted than Bad_Habit's thread.
However, if I, or anyone, is able to create a "Recommended Strategy Guide" without it being closed, my concerns/argument may be dismissed
No idea what that means.
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Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though.
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a reason why you should add this is theres also a big help how to defend against 6pool/early agression.
same as alot of minor things are worked out very well that can be used in alot of normal cenarious aswell.
another reason is that cheese is part of the game, even tho u might not like cheese urself, ppl need to be aware that there are more ways available than "no attack till 30 minutes"
so "2 random" ppl voched for my vote in the last little time when noone (unless you who eyerolled about my thread) was against it. i really think its good help for people and im sorry my english isnt the best. i can work out the blocks to be better organized even tho i have no idea how to do it yet. i would appreciate any help here since i have problems doing this (same as problems with the language)
i did not mean to disrespect you, i just got a little mad because my hard word didnt count for anything in your eyes
: (
i dont see why there is a thread with "how to defend against 6pool" in there when u only want normal threads about a normal macro game
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On November 18 2011 19:16 NrGmonk wrote:Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though.
You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it.
6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG.
2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries.
16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select
3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun
Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody
3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select
I'm sure there's many more...
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United States8476 Posts
On November 19 2011 02:57 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 19:16 NrGmonk wrote:Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though. You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it. 6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG. 2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries. 16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select 3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody 3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select I'm sure there's many more...
My criteria are clearly listed at the top of the post. Guides are included solely based on how well they follow those criteria. As I've said before, a guide has to be more exceptional than usual if it's not "standard". The biggest reason I prefer "standard" strategies is that they're easier for me to vet. If a strategy is "out there" and I'm not as familiar with the matchup, it's harder for me to tell if they're viable at the highest level. And honestly the biggest reason I rejected all those guides is that they're not that well-organized, detailed, or well-written. For example, warden's guide isn't standard at all, but it WAS well-organized, detailed, and well-written. There's nothing personal about my decisions and I don't even understand how my decisions could be personal.
About iechoic's guide: There's a lot of reasons that guide is there there
- It was quite a big deal when it was first posted.
- It's very well written and organized.
- It was in the original thread I copied this from.
- There's honestly no better TvT threads and I didn't want to leave the TvT section blank.
That being said, if I add a "historical" section as people have suggested, I'll probably move that guide over.
The TvP mech guide doesn't deserve to be in here though. It was in the original thread and I must have missed it while going through all the old guides. I'll remove that. As you might be able to tell, I was trying to be minimalistic with the thread so people could more easily find good quality guides. If you have an argument that a guide I didn't include is better than a guide I did include, it's more likely that I'll remove the worse guide than add the better one.
I also don't understand why you feel like you have to flame me without first asking me why I did what I did. This thread took a deceivingly large amount of time to compile between finding good guides, reading/checking them all, and formatting. I've put a lot of work and thought into it and I don't feel like you've given me the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm doing.
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EPT
