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On October 01 2011 07:23 xsevR wrote:
I feel like Terran actually has a lot of options in TvP. You see someone like Polt (insane TvP record) who opens like reactor Hellion expand into bio, there's one/two base 1/1/1 builds, cloaked banshee openings, an expand build that gets a couple siege tanks + siege mode for defense, ghost pressure, and even occasional mech or biomech. Drop play and multi-tasking is strongly rewarded, and even BFH drops can be viable.
Why would you want to be forced into siege tanks for all three match-ups? They already have viable timings in TvP, and pair really well with banshees against pure ground because stalkers are the only G2A AA toss has. Don't agree with OP at all.
Fully agreed I'd even go as far as to say protoss is just as limited in their options against terran. It's not like this match-up is the only one in this situation either, pretty much every single zerg does ling/mutabling into infestor into BL's against terran. Would be really cool if they tweaked hydras, carriers and BC's to give every race more options before releasing new units in HotS.
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How about try going hellion, tank and ghosts in TvP? like byun but ghosts to take out immortals?
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I find that even if you will end up with MMM+G+Viking, there's a lot of different way to get there.
Quick Ghost ? Quick Medivac ? Heavy barracks ? Fast upgrades ?
It' still something.
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I totally agree. Warpgate mechanic is just silly and is the cause of many problems in game. I hate nothing more than barely winning a fight in TvP only to lose to mass Toss warp-in, just because I cannot reinforce as fast as him.
I want Tanks...but it seems like Toss army is designed to kill tanks...chargelots, now 6 range immortals, void rays, blink stalkers, the list goes on. It's so boring.
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On October 01 2011 07:55 Noocta wrote:
I find that even if you will end up with MMM+G+Viking, there's a lot of different way to get there.
Quick Ghost ? Quick Medivac ? Heavy barracks ? Fast upgrades ?
It' still something.
That's where all the strategy is, people get confused between strategy and unit composition.
The pieces on a chess board don't change, but that's not where the strategy is.
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you can go mech in tvp. thor bf hellions with ghost is great but its tricky to get up in running. sure koreans dont do it but they suck at mech anyway from what i see. remember when thorzain did his thor build to mc? that build still kind of works but you need ghosts now to be effective.
i think overall blizzard is pushing bio play over mech play and its really quite saddening. i used to love watching gsl for new exciting strategies but now all i see is marine marauder for tvp, and marine tank for tvz. watching sc2 makes me yawn now
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I agree with every point except for the micro intensity of TvP, mostly its drops, and constantly prodding here and there while scouting, but I feel it's more intensive to micro than TvT if you're meching. I'm also assuming that the late game mech you used to run went by the wayside =( yes, I would like BW TvP very much but I don't see it happening in the near future 
Great post!
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I can see what you're on about. TvP is frustrating for the protoss as well. The collosus needs to be reworked, badly. But I'm not going to go on about that, theres already thousands of threads about it =| Can't wait for HoTS.
I think this is probably more of a blog than a strategy section thread, btw.
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I'd really like to see a way to incorporate tanks into TvP. The problem is that pretty much every single toss unit is designed to be a counter to tanks, some more than others. I can't really forsee tvp moving away from pure bio tbh.
Basically, a tank heavy composition could beat, in theory, the standard "deathball" stalker/collo/immortal w/e if you had good upgrades, emps, and ravens to PDD or HSM. The problem is fighting mass chargelot. Tanks are just irredeemably bad against chargelots. Maybe a slow, slow push with +armor upgrade bunkers and banshees to force stalkers?
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amazing post, i agree so much!
in bw i really loved tvp, mech was just simply amazing and in a way i feel like tvp was a work of art, it was just beautiful. i would really love to see more people work on getting mech to work or something but i'm not sure if that would be possible at the highest levels of play right now the way the game is but, we can only hope that in the future it will be because i really hate bio in tvp.
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On October 01 2011 07:27 willsterben wrote:
yeah and now compare those games to sc1 game 1 year after release.
thanks though. will watch.
Time does not matter. The game design is not good enough to allow interesting play compared to BW.
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So.. sorry if I sound rude bu whats the point of this thread?
Say you don´t like Bio in TvP? Well.... Ok? Several people play Mech in TvP too, if you want to argue that its not GSL level well yeah. But people were saying that TvT was all about Biomech or pure Bio several months ago and yet there was a solution found to make Mech Viable in TvT, to say that Mech is not Viable at this stage of the game(where not even top pros are playing perfectly)seems just silly to me.
As for no Micro in TvP... well I will have to disagree, you can Micro against Colossi at low Colossi numbers and Hell yeah you can Micro against Storms to take little damage.Of course it is more efficient to Get ghosts and Vikings. Also I don´t feel like the MU has been A move vs A move in a long while where the Terran needs to do constant drops and multitasking to engage against the relatively immobile P army.
I don´t feel the MU is boring atm, but it can still Evolve. I remember at launch people were saying that Mech was dead and yet a solution was found to make it viable in 2/3 MUs.Hell Bio was king at launch. I am not really that worried as the game can and will evolve as it goes on.
As far as Warpgate goes, well to me it seems you are confusing "I don't like it" with "its bad design". Its Ok to not like warpgate but overall I think it gets waaay too much blame just because its something radically different, I actually like it,it could still use some tweaks but overall I think its just a mechanic that people are still not used to, but overall as far as mechanics go couldn't the same be said about some of the BW mechanics when compared to previous games like W2?(Workers not needing to be present to build something, Units being built from another unit.. etc)
Well its all your opinion but I don't get whats your point. Mech is not viable in TvP and we should hope for the expansion to fix that? Well, its Ok I guess. But overall I think that a viable mech build may start emerging like it did in TvT(Like what Byun did, yeah it was an all in but it showed the power of Mech).
But I agree with you on one thing, Blizzard does really seem to try to make both Mech, Bio and Bionic viable which IMO is awesomely cool(I loved Bio in BW, but oh well we all know how that turned out). And don't hate on the Marauder he is the sole reason Pure Bio is viable outside of gimmicky Mass marines strats that all got figured out.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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On October 01 2011 08:07 Fission wrote:
I'd really like to see a way to incorporate tanks into TvP. The problem is that pretty much every single toss unit is designed to be a counter to tanks, some more than others. I can't really forsee tvp moving away from pure bio tbh.
Basically, a tank heavy composition could beat, in theory, the standard "deathball" stalker/collo/immortal w/e if you had good upgrades, emps, and ravens to PDD or HSM. The problem is fighting mass chargelot. Tanks are just irredeemably bad against chargelots. Maybe a slow, slow push with +armor upgrade bunkers and banshees to force stalkers?
uh...hellions? The basic mech unit that you can pump out of a factory two at a time with a reactor?
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OP's analysis is sound. I also think Warpgate Mechanic and the Marauder unit are bad for the game. All we can do is cross our fingers for HotS, I guess.
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On October 01 2011 08:02 RedMosquito wrote:
you can go mech in tvp. thor bf hellions with ghost is great but its tricky to get up in running. sure koreans dont do it but they suck at mech anyway from what i see. remember when thorzain did his thor build to mc? that build still kind of works but you need ghosts now to be effective.
i think overall blizzard is pushing bio play over mech play and its really quite saddening. i used to love watching gsl for new exciting strategies but now all i see is marine marauder for tvp, and marine tank for tvz. watching sc2 makes me yawn now
tell that to ANY BW Terran Pro, even the bad ones.
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i hate to be that guy, but you're just whining dude.
How about you having wrong unit composition? He has collosus and you have no vikings? You lose. He has storms and you have no EMPs? You lose.
theorycrafting does about as good as bitching when you're the #1 most represented race amongst the top players (referring to the gsl code s), by a large margin. the only thing you seem to have right is that terran is boring, "oh i build the same units as i get in the first few minutes, all game long, and win if my micro is decent and i hit the scan button a couple times in the game so i don't die to dts or something." the only exception is the mirror match, but of course, when op fights op you get epic battles.
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I used to play a lot of Terran because I like TvZ, but TvP is so boring that I quit. Protoss is my new offrace.
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On October 01 2011 08:20 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 08:07 Fission wrote:
I'd really like to see a way to incorporate tanks into TvP. The problem is that pretty much every single toss unit is designed to be a counter to tanks, some more than others. I can't really forsee tvp moving away from pure bio tbh.
Basically, a tank heavy composition could beat, in theory, the standard "deathball" stalker/collo/immortal w/e if you had good upgrades, emps, and ravens to PDD or HSM. The problem is fighting mass chargelot. Tanks are just irredeemably bad against chargelots. Maybe a slow, slow push with +armor upgrade bunkers and banshees to force stalkers? uh...hellions? The basic mech unit that you can pump out of a factory two at a time with a reactor?
Don't be silly, hellions are terrible vs charge* zealots, especially now with the BF nerf.
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On October 01 2011 07:27 willsterben wrote:
yeah and now compare those games to sc1 game 1 year after release.
thanks though. will watch.
The thing is, that really isn't a good comparison. The reason I say that is because when Starcraft + BW came out there weren't any other games with a 3 way race dynamic. All the RTS games I can remember were basically 2 extremely similar races. The thing you have to realize is there has been over a decade of people figuring out RTS play, and some of the things that have been learned are almost universal. When Starcraft first came out the idea of transferring workers was revolutionary. People just didn't have experience with the kind of economy management and thought processes to figure the game out.
Sc2 is moving MUCH faster in terms of being figured out. The fundamentals of RTS and mechanics were already understood before the game was released. So they just had to be applied and slightly reworked to be fit onto Sc2. Seriously, we have had threads since beta scientifically analyzing the game and figuring out optimal income and worker saturation. This was unheard of when Starcraft vanilla was released.
I do believe there are things to be understood in the future about compositions and transitions for builds, but I doubt we will see anything as revolutionary as when Mech was first invented, muta stacking/harass, sk terran or the bisu build in BW.
Hopefully I'm wrong. Perhaps the expansions will provide more depth and allow for more to develop in the game. But if you look at BW today, the matchups are still evolving at the highest levels. I think a lot of what the OP presented is key to this. You need to have relatively weak tier one (that requires upgrades) and weak production capabilities in the early game. Strong flexible tier two (and sick upgrades) and insane tier 3.
This gives players more flexibility in the early game to set up for different builds.However in Sc2, because of the power of early units (marine,marauder,reaper,sentries, roaches banlings, ) and early production mechanics (addon swapping, reactors, warpgate, larva inject) the early game is basically a frenzy. Where you have to try and scout constantly so you don't die because of the ability for units to mass so early, or for a huge econ advantage to occur (think of a zerg who hatch firsts and drones up, a protoss who expands really fast and crono probes, or a terrans with mules). In a way a lot of things in SC2 are forced because of these concepts which prevents a lot of flexibility.
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I feel that there is a lot of micro that you should be able to do in big engagements PvT.
* Kite zealots
* Target fire colossus
* EMP clumps of units
* EMP immortals, archons, high templars.
* Control your medivacs so they are properly positioned to not get feedbacked / stormed
* Lift drop off in front or behind forcefields.
* Spread your units to have colossus AE not hit maximum amount of units
* Zealot kiting with stutter step.
* Macro during engagement and set rally points properly depending on how the fight is going / reinforcements are needed.
* Snipe if you have enough spare ghosts.
... possibly more.
To be honest, I feel that a TvP engagement is possibly the fight that is the most micro-intensive?
One of the reasons I don't want to play T is that my APM is far too low to do even half of that stuff properly ... Terran seems like the race that benefit the most from extremely high APM if used effectively.
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EPT
