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On October 01 2011 12:19 Tehs Tehklz wrote:The issue at the pro level is not that the Terran player has to micro more, it is that they get to micro more. Terran units in current TvP have far more opportunities for micro to increase their effectiveness, in my opinion. So, for average players, it is hard, because not everyone can do all those things Thorzain talked about well enough to beat a big Protoss army, but at the highest level, a good Terran player can smash a Protoss player and there little room for the Protoss to work with in a battle of control (there is a similar relationship in TvZ when a Zerg player is trying to fight bio with banelings. This is why the lurker is a better unit, but that seems like a different conversation). Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 07:01 Noocta wrote:On October 01 2011 06:56 homeless_guy wrote:On October 01 2011 06:54 Noocta wrote:
To be honest, it's mainly because of protoss design. Terran ain't really the problem. ( if we're talking about design and not balance )
Warpgate technologie and Colossus both force your opponent into certains thing that make a XvP pretty straight forward " Do that or lose " I understand your point about colo., but can you explain what you mean about WG? They wanted to make the Colossus idea work so hard, i think they ended up screwing everything else design wise. In my mind, this is the biggest problem with Protoss and kind of in SC2 as a whole. The entire Protoss race seems like it was designed by saying "wouldn't it be cool if..." instead of thinking about game mechanics. Forcefield, colossus, warp gate, mothership, phoenix - wouldn't it be cool if..."Protoss could modify the map terrain" "there was a giant War of the Worlds tripod style unit" "players could control that Protoss warp technology for their units" "we brought in the giant Protoss world ships" "a unit could shoot while moving". I'd say the same thing seems to apply to reapers (jet packs), hellions (flame throwers), thors (giant battle mechs) and banelings (explosions/goo). Then game mechanics and balance are worked in around all of this, the "really important stuff". Another point, look at the new SC2 units compared to BW units that were lost and their micro potential (vultures to hellions, lurkers to banelings, reaver to colossus, goliaths to thors, defilers and dark swarm to infestors with fungal growth) and new SC2 units alone (roaches, marauders with concussive shells, broodlords). Micro just took a real shot to the pills with a lot of these. Though, I will say, SC2 devs did have successes: I think blink stalkers are tits, the vikings as transformers has worked out really well, and phoenix (not counting gravitron beam - I am no big fan of any snares/stuns) are one of my favorite units. Roaches with burrow also had potential to be like blink stalkers, I think, but it just hasn't worked out. Still a good idea, though. Then compare the number of micro stopping abilities in BW to the number in SC2 (lockdown vs concussive shells, forcefield, gravitron beam, fungal growth, ). I seem to have gotten off topic...oh yes: Chronoboost is dick compared to MULE and inject. It is great early game and has uses in the mid game, but it's potential for greatness is significantly lower, I think, then the other two macro mechanics. Inject and larve lets you remax and/or 100% tech swith almost instantly. MULEs let Terran players make phenomenal comebacks, abandon SCV's entirely and they can even be dropped on banrlings/tanks. Chronoboost? Nothing beyond its initial purpose of making things slightly faster. So, I think Protoss needs less fluff and more practicality and both chronoboost and warpgate need overalls or a just to be replaced entirely. This would make the race more interesting and allow for sensible buffs and balancing, instead of trying to dance around all the "coolness". As for the matchup of TvP, one problem is that Terran players are almost pigeonholed into going bio. In TvT or TvZ, there are options of full mech, biomech on a sliding scale and full bio. Each composition has its own style and strategy. TvP, however, feels like there is a lot less choice in composition/tactics on the Terran side. I think a lot of excitement could be added to TvP if there was simply more choice. However, personally, I will always prefer bio, I think. Biomech can be good, too (I like tanks), but Thors are too clunky and hellions too one dimensional, in my opinion. That's how I see it, anyway. Also, vultures really should come back. Seriously. This one unit adds so much micro. It could also make mech in TvP much more viable. If I got just one StarCraft development related wish, it would be for vultures to come back. I love them so much.
I would love Vultures. But they don;t fit in SC2. Chargelots would drag them to well and Collosi cleans up Mines to quickly with its sweeper motion. Not to mention that Immortals can just walk over them without a care. And Mines would be OP against Ling Banling.
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First and foremost: All my my 1v1's are as protoss, and I'm in masters.
I think tanks are completely stupid against protoss. Blink, charge lots, Colossus (splash does a SHITLOAD vs stacked tanks), Immortals, all of these absolutely destroy tanks. They need to do something about this IMO, I even thought the old tanks were fine...it seems as if Terran are setting up to lose the game if they want to go with tanks, almost as if Blizzard FORCED them to go main bio (which is what they did) much how they pretty much force us Toss to get a robo for obs etc.
When they force toss to get a robo for obs, you can easily pump out immortals because you already have the tech, which makes tank play a terrible idea for terran.
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On October 01 2011 12:27 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 12:19 Tehs Tehklz wrote:The issue at the pro level is not that the Terran player has to micro more, it is that they get to micro more. Terran units in current TvP have far more opportunities for micro to increase their effectiveness, in my opinion. So, for average players, it is hard, because not everyone can do all those things Thorzain talked about well enough to beat a big Protoss army, but at the highest level, a good Terran player can smash a Protoss player and there little room for the Protoss to work with in a battle of control (there is a similar relationship in TvZ when a Zerg player is trying to fight bio with banelings. This is why the lurker is a better unit, but that seems like a different conversation). On October 01 2011 07:01 Noocta wrote:On October 01 2011 06:56 homeless_guy wrote:On October 01 2011 06:54 Noocta wrote:
To be honest, it's mainly because of protoss design. Terran ain't really the problem. ( if we're talking about design and not balance )
Warpgate technologie and Colossus both force your opponent into certains thing that make a XvP pretty straight forward " Do that or lose " I understand your point about colo., but can you explain what you mean about WG? They wanted to make the Colossus idea work so hard, i think they ended up screwing everything else design wise. In my mind, this is the biggest problem with Protoss and kind of in SC2 as a whole. The entire Protoss race seems like it was designed by saying "wouldn't it be cool if..." instead of thinking about game mechanics. Forcefield, colossus, warp gate, mothership, phoenix - wouldn't it be cool if..."Protoss could modify the map terrain" "there was a giant War of the Worlds tripod style unit" "players could control that Protoss warp technology for their units" "we brought in the giant Protoss world ships" "a unit could shoot while moving". I'd say the same thing seems to apply to reapers (jet packs), hellions (flame throwers), thors (giant battle mechs) and banelings (explosions/goo). Then game mechanics and balance are worked in around all of this, the "really important stuff". Another point, look at the new SC2 units compared to BW units that were lost and their micro potential (vultures to hellions, lurkers to banelings, reaver to colossus, goliaths to thors, defilers and dark swarm to infestors with fungal growth) and new SC2 units alone (roaches, marauders with concussive shells, broodlords). Micro just took a real shot to the pills with a lot of these. Though, I will say, SC2 devs did have successes: I think blink stalkers are tits, the vikings as transformers has worked out really well, and phoenix (not counting gravitron beam - I am no big fan of any snares/stuns) are one of my favorite units. Roaches with burrow also had potential to be like blink stalkers, I think, but it just hasn't worked out. Still a good idea, though. Then compare the number of micro stopping abilities in BW to the number in SC2 (lockdown vs concussive shells, forcefield, gravitron beam, fungal growth, ). I seem to have gotten off topic...oh yes: Chronoboost is dick compared to MULE and inject. It is great early game and has uses in the mid game, but it's potential for greatness is significantly lower, I think, then the other two macro mechanics. Inject and larve lets you remax and/or 100% tech swith almost instantly. MULEs let Terran players make phenomenal comebacks, abandon SCV's entirely and they can even be dropped on banrlings/tanks. Chronoboost? Nothing beyond its initial purpose of making things slightly faster. So, I think Protoss needs less fluff and more practicality and both chronoboost and warpgate need overalls or a just to be replaced entirely. This would make the race more interesting and allow for sensible buffs and balancing, instead of trying to dance around all the "coolness". As for the matchup of TvP, one problem is that Terran players are almost pigeonholed into going bio. In TvT or TvZ, there are options of full mech, biomech on a sliding scale and full bio. Each composition has its own style and strategy. TvP, however, feels like there is a lot less choice in composition/tactics on the Terran side. I think a lot of excitement could be added to TvP if there was simply more choice. However, personally, I will always prefer bio, I think. Biomech can be good, too (I like tanks), but Thors are too clunky and hellions too one dimensional, in my opinion. That's how I see it, anyway. Also, vultures really should come back. Seriously. This one unit adds so much micro. It could also make mech in TvP much more viable. If I got just one StarCraft development related wish, it would be for vultures to come back. I love them so much. I would love Vultures. But they don;t fit in SC2. Chargelots would drag them to well and Collosi cleans up Mines to quickly with its sweeper motion. Not to mention that Immortals can just walk over them without a care. And Mines would be OP against Ling Banling.
Fuck your logic! I want vultures, damn it!
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
Yeah I would agree with you there. I really think that tvp and pvt is heavily micro intensive. Also, holy crap your TSL emblem is huge. ^^
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I feel as if the competitiveness of SC2 off the bat somewhat discourages new and creative thinking for the match-ups. Mech will eventually find a place in TvP but as of right now it sucks.
When it comes to mirror match-ups, I don't mind at all if some strategies aren't sustainable, but when it's a non-mirror, almost all strategies/army comps have to be viable
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
And I enjoy watching PvTs where this intense micro is going on. As a spectator, I much prefer the MU since ghost play became more routine (a few months ago).
As a toss player, I love to see how other P keep there colossi alive, FF, move their templar to the front...and also the positioning--all the army movement and baiting that takes place before the actual engagement.
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no idea why the marauder still hasn't been nerfed or modified at all.
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I think that the main point being made by the OP and the point that people are generally missing in the rush to get out their own opinions on what are really just tangents is that -- to put it in more abstract terms -- in a particular matchup it seems there is a lack of variety of viable unit composition, and consequently, to some degree, strategy. (And thus it makes the match up less fun.)
Is there? And if so, how is it fixed?
To bring it back to the particulars, is the Tank / Mech play really not viable in TvP? Is there a way to fix it (without breaking other stuff)?
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I think Thorzain's mention of micro is why I've hit a plateau in this matchup. Storm and Colossus just add so much DPS and much like predy said, if you don't have enough ghosts or vikings for each matchup, you lose.
I've sort of lost an interest in what my ladder ranking is just because I know my micro is at a point where I would only improve it with practice, and I just value my time better spent elsewhere!
And as others have said, watching TvP at a pro level is much more fun than actually playing it yourself. You always KNOW what you need to do, but you bungle your executions. Watching a pro play it out is always more entertaining.
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
There is still a layer of micro that is untouched as well, since the collosus attacks in a line, theoretically if you moved units forward and backwards you can make it so that collosi only hit one unit at a time while retaining near full army DPS vs gateway units.
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I second the SC2 is not broodwar sentiment.
They were meant to be complimentary products not cannibalistic.
IMHO Blizzard should release an official SC1+BW downloadable mission pack.
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I don't understand why tanks need to be the staple of every match up?
I personally enjoy bio, I like having a more mobile army and it's that simple.
Mech is possible against protoss at all levels except maybe the very highest, and even then you can see it occasionally (read: Goody).
Is it reasonable to question why pure bio is practically unusable in anything BUT TvP?
Mech players enjoy seeing mech units in all aspects of the game, and to an extent it's possible, but in TvT and TvZ you have no choice but to make tanks. Bio-mech is obviously a sort of balance, but pure bio is completely unusable in anything but TvP. Now people want to completely eliminate it from the game?
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Balance issue aside. I agree with op on boring gameplay of tvp. I know good micro can win you a game just like any matchup but the feeling of tvp is not the same exciting as sc1. I will always miss that slow push of mech in sc1.
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I agree, especially the part where if you don't have vikings vs colossus, you die and if you don't have emp's vs HT, you die. Also the part where you can't go mech anymore vs P 
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On October 01 2011 14:12 Neddy wrote:
pure bio is completely unusable in anything but TvP.
Tell that to MKP who goes bio in TvT, or Startale.rainbow who crushed destiny with pure bio.
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
Woot! awsome that thorzain himself posted on this. But I like this post, but i dnt like some of the responses. Not saying people are wrong, just saying that i meet a lot of sc2 players that i meet, bsides absolute baller pro dont want to have to do what thorzain said. Every race has there micro intensive stuff, and in order to win, you should take advantage and do it all. I feel that too many people want to win with as little micro as possible, and thats not sc2, like i said, not EVERYONE feels this way, just most non-pros imo
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Too be fair Thorzain is correct about the micro intensive nature of TvP, but I like what Tehklz wrote about itOn October 01 2011 12:19 Tehs Tehklz wrote:
The issue at the pro level is not that the Terran player has to micro more, it is that they get to micro more. Terran units in current TvP have far more opportunities for micro to increase their effectiveness, in my opinion. So, for average players, it is hard, because not everyone can do all those things Thorzain talked about well enough to beat a big Protoss army, but at the highest level, a good Terran player can smash a Protoss player and there little room for the Protoss to work with in a battle of control (there is a similar relationship in TvZ when a Zerg player is trying to fight bio with banelings. This is why the lurker is a better unit, but that seems like a different conversation).
Tehklz is right, at lower levels Terrans find fighting Protoss hard because they don't micro well in the engagements, whereas Protoss doesnt really have to (but that is more unit design than choice). Protoss can 1A, but eventually as terrans become better, ghost play becomes more common and
At higher levels, Protoss absolutely HAVE to set up the engagement because if they don't, they actually CANT micro (no energy templar, no energy sentries). Warp Prism is of course going to have to be a staple in PvT, but as terran gets better and learns to respond to this with vikings, its up to protoss to set up their prism properly.
This feels a lot different than BW where Terran absolutely had to set up the engagement (mines, tank placement), because if they didn't Terran would actually straight up die, which was partially why PvT was such a pain. Bio against protoss was terrible (goon range + micro) whereas in SC2 that same relationship doesn't hold because terran essentially has a better version of the dragoon. Watching mech play in BW was awesome because of the sheer tension. In SC2 - if terran gets off the carpet EMPs, or protoss gets the feedbacks/storm - the engagements lasts 5 seconds.
Fixing why bio is superior in TvP in SC2 will take nothing short of a major redesign of both races, which won't be seen until something like HOTS. I agree with the OP in that respect - whether it has to be mech or something else remains to be discussed.
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Thank you so much for making this thread couldnt agree more, Ive always thought TvP lacked since later beta and release.
I will always remember in beta when i first started seeing replays of pros going pure bio and i remeber thinking "Wtf???!?! he wow ith just rines and rauders, i kept expecting the T to transition into some high tech unit and pwn the toss, but nope he just instead attacked a ton of different locations at once and never engaged the toss fully." I felt so disheartned when i saw this build really rise up to being standard. Its just so boring to watch.
I really like where TvT and espcially TvZ are at, those definately feel BW worthy, yea TvT can be boring sometimes but its still generally exciting and takes a ton of skill. TvZ is so much fun to play
for a few reasons
1) TvZ has that unexpected element of battle still to it. Alot of the muta/bling/ling vs rine tank battles are so close theres so many times where the blings are just inches away from a rine and then they get blasted by a tank, or theres times where the blings perfectly clobber a huge group of rines. Its so exciting, the battles are really unpredicatable and just crazy.
2) Tanks tanks tanks, I really feel that tanks are the key to excitement and fun in any Terran MU. Tanks literally define the race, seigeing up controlling areas and long range really makes Terran feel like Terran. Its so epic when the other races rush the tank line, will they blow through? will they be annihlated? Will the Terran hold his ground with just 1 or two tanks left in his army? Not to mention a million siegie tank explosions on high graphic settings is visually stunning itself(important for a MU to be fun to watch is the visual aspect.)
3) A ton of units are used in progression starting with low tier units all the way up to tier 3
I loved BW TvZ because the progression of units was so cool
Generally T starts Marine/medic Z starts ling/sunken colony. Terran techs to siege tank Z techs to muta to keep T in base. Z gets lurkers, T gets science vessels Z gets defielers and Ultras and so on. This is so much fun to watch both races have all these different timings as they slowly climb the tech trees. Almost every unit is used in the MU. Its really exciting to watch, for example every BW T knows that feeling when the first dark swarm comes out on the field, this kind of stuff is great, both players keep progressing through their tech tree, theres not one magic army(Cough MMM G/V Cough) thats just going to work the entire game, you have to keep adapting until the latest stage of the game.
When you look at these things and put them to work in sc2 TvP you are hurting.
Theres very limited surprise in battles, oh he got emps, oh he got feedbacked. Oh he made a concave, oh he made good ff's. Its boring and bland, most of the time the armies also steam roll each other so fast that you cant tell wtf just happened. Not to mention that half the game is just the T dropping and not even engaging the main army.
There are no tanks in standard TvP, 1-1-1 is cheesy not standard. No postional play, the OP made such a good point that ive been saying forever, TvP feels like im playing Zerg, making a bunch of tier 1 units,
Theres very little progression, you start tier 1 then add some ghosts and vikings and ur done. Toss gets either collsi or archon or HT.
THis MU has also made me not play as much its just so damn frustrating, not fun to watch, and not fun to play. Its broken on so many levels. The only fix I could think of to make tanks work is maybe a bonus dmg buff to sheilds or something? Or make them 2 food, or maybe not make every single protoss unit counter them.
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On October 01 2011 12:27 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 12:19 Tehs Tehklz wrote:The issue at the pro level is not that the Terran player has to micro more, it is that they get to micro more. Terran units in current TvP have far more opportunities for micro to increase their effectiveness, in my opinion. So, for average players, it is hard, because not everyone can do all those things Thorzain talked about well enough to beat a big Protoss army, but at the highest level, a good Terran player can smash a Protoss player and there little room for the Protoss to work with in a battle of control (there is a similar relationship in TvZ when a Zerg player is trying to fight bio with banelings. This is why the lurker is a better unit, but that seems like a different conversation). On October 01 2011 07:01 Noocta wrote:On October 01 2011 06:56 homeless_guy wrote:On October 01 2011 06:54 Noocta wrote:
To be honest, it's mainly because of protoss design. Terran ain't really the problem. ( if we're talking about design and not balance )
Warpgate technologie and Colossus both force your opponent into certains thing that make a XvP pretty straight forward " Do that or lose " I understand your point about colo., but can you explain what you mean about WG? They wanted to make the Colossus idea work so hard, i think they ended up screwing everything else design wise. In my mind, this is the biggest problem with Protoss and kind of in SC2 as a whole. The entire Protoss race seems like it was designed by saying "wouldn't it be cool if..." instead of thinking about game mechanics. Forcefield, colossus, warp gate, mothership, phoenix - wouldn't it be cool if..."Protoss could modify the map terrain" "there was a giant War of the Worlds tripod style unit" "players could control that Protoss warp technology for their units" "we brought in the giant Protoss world ships" "a unit could shoot while moving". I'd say the same thing seems to apply to reapers (jet packs), hellions (flame throwers), thors (giant battle mechs) and banelings (explosions/goo). Then game mechanics and balance are worked in around all of this, the "really important stuff". Another point, look at the new SC2 units compared to BW units that were lost and their micro potential (vultures to hellions, lurkers to banelings, reaver to colossus, goliaths to thors, defilers and dark swarm to infestors with fungal growth) and new SC2 units alone (roaches, marauders with concussive shells, broodlords). Micro just took a real shot to the pills with a lot of these. Though, I will say, SC2 devs did have successes: I think blink stalkers are tits, the vikings as transformers has worked out really well, and phoenix (not counting gravitron beam - I am no big fan of any snares/stuns) are one of my favorite units. Roaches with burrow also had potential to be like blink stalkers, I think, but it just hasn't worked out. Still a good idea, though. Then compare the number of micro stopping abilities in BW to the number in SC2 (lockdown vs concussive shells, forcefield, gravitron beam, fungal growth, ). I seem to have gotten off topic...oh yes: Chronoboost is dick compared to MULE and inject. It is great early game and has uses in the mid game, but it's potential for greatness is significantly lower, I think, then the other two macro mechanics. Inject and larve lets you remax and/or 100% tech swith almost instantly. MULEs let Terran players make phenomenal comebacks, abandon SCV's entirely and they can even be dropped on banrlings/tanks. Chronoboost? Nothing beyond its initial purpose of making things slightly faster. So, I think Protoss needs less fluff and more practicality and both chronoboost and warpgate need overalls or a just to be replaced entirely. This would make the race more interesting and allow for sensible buffs and balancing, instead of trying to dance around all the "coolness". As for the matchup of TvP, one problem is that Terran players are almost pigeonholed into going bio. In TvT or TvZ, there are options of full mech, biomech on a sliding scale and full bio. Each composition has its own style and strategy. TvP, however, feels like there is a lot less choice in composition/tactics on the Terran side. I think a lot of excitement could be added to TvP if there was simply more choice. However, personally, I will always prefer bio, I think. Biomech can be good, too (I like tanks), but Thors are too clunky and hellions too one dimensional, in my opinion. That's how I see it, anyway. Also, vultures really should come back. Seriously. This one unit adds so much micro. It could also make mech in TvP much more viable. If I got just one StarCraft development related wish, it would be for vultures to come back. I love them so much. I would love Vultures. But they don;t fit in SC2. Chargelots would drag them to well and Collosi cleans up Mines to quickly with its sweeper motion. Not to mention that Immortals can just walk over them without a care. And Mines would be OP against Ling Banling.
This is exactly why I want Vultures. It will surely make it easier for terran to expo. Thats for sure. It might actually give terran a chance to actually out macro a zerg for once.
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