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Nice OP.
I really dislike tvp and it is exactly because tanks have no role in the match-up beyond a one base all-in (and after the immortal buff, I suspect not even that).
It's hard to not get into balance stuff in a thread like this, because the weakness of the tank is directly related to balancing done in the beta around really tiny maps like Steppes.. the tank just feels way too flimsy at present, with way too low damage against most units unless there are a somewhat unhealthy amount of tanks. I don't think something like spider mines would really fix that. In a perfect world, Blizzard would never have added the marauder and kept tanks at a more viable dps, supply cost and durability.
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On October 01 2011 09:38 aebriol wrote:
I feel that there is a lot of micro that you should be able to do in big engagements PvT.
* Kite zealots
* Target fire colossus
* EMP clumps of units
* EMP immortals, archons, high templars.
* Control your medivacs so they are properly positioned to not get feedbacked / stormed
* Lift drop off in front or behind forcefields.
* Spread your units to have colossus AE not hit maximum amount of units
* Zealot kiting with stutter step.
* Macro during engagement and set rally points properly depending on how the fight is going / reinforcements are needed.
* Snipe if you have enough spare ghosts.
... possibly more.
To be honest, I feel that a TvP engagement is possibly the fight that is the most micro-intensive?
One of the reasons I don't want to play T is that my APM is far too low to do even half of that stuff properly ... Terran seems like the race that benefit the most from extremely high APM if used effectively.
But you hardly have to do all this in order to actually win the fight. If you pull off blancket EMPs you are going to win anyway. Half the things you said are not even clever or efficient.
'Kite Zealots': this is fine, everyone does it.
'Target fire colossus' : this is also fine, but it is hardly difficult. a shift clickclickclickclick, done in less then half a second
'EMP': Obviously important. Next point goes hand in hand.
'Control your medivacs' moot point. If the mmm ball is on attack move the medivacs will control themselves.
'Lift drop' If you EMP, no ff. If they are zealot heavy, ff is gonna be bad for them (unless you balled instead of concaved). If stalker heavy, medivac is gonna die.
'Spread units' make a concave, yes.
You already said kiting zealots
'macro' this isn't part of micro and is more part of multitask. In TvP, if you win the engagement, you win regardless if you floated to 1000 minerals in the fight.
'Snipe', this is hardly going to make a difference in the fight.
So, basically, you wrote a lot of words to make it sound like there is a lot to do when in actual fact, you can't even theory craft more micro to do. Concave, e click, t, a click, stutter step. BS like medivac over forcefields and controlling medivacs (if they are going towards enemy, they are not healing! ie they are on move command).
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well i agree with the op
but its not only tanks
for example the design of reaper is bad
its not the cost or that the speed uppgrade that you can do when you have factory
its the 40 sec built time
i am aware of that that if you would decrease it
it woulb be imba on early game
but they could make the reaper playable for mid game
in generall i dont like the mmm&ghost viviking combo on tvp
same goes with tvz
you need to do tons of dmg to his eco
and the zerg needs only to scout and defend
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On October 01 2011 10:06 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 09:38 aebriol wrote:
I feel that there is a lot of micro that you should be able to do in big engagements PvT.
* Kite zealots
* Target fire colossus
* EMP clumps of units
* EMP immortals, archons, high templars.
* Control your medivacs so they are properly positioned to not get feedbacked / stormed
* Lift drop off in front or behind forcefields.
* Spread your units to have colossus AE not hit maximum amount of units
* Zealot kiting with stutter step.
* Macro during engagement and set rally points properly depending on how the fight is going / reinforcements are needed.
* Snipe if you have enough spare ghosts.
... possibly more.
To be honest, I feel that a TvP engagement is possibly the fight that is the most micro-intensive?
One of the reasons I don't want to play T is that my APM is far too low to do even half of that stuff properly ... Terran seems like the race that benefit the most from extremely high APM if used effectively. But you hardly have to do all this in order to actually win the fight. If you pull off blancket EMPs you are going to win anyway. Half the things you said are not even clever or efficient. 'Kite Zealots': this is fine, everyone does it. 'Target fire colossus' : this is also fine, but it is hardly difficult. a shift clickclickclickclick, done in less then half a second 'EMP': Obviously important. Next point goes hand in hand. 'Control your medivacs' moot point. If the mmm ball is on attack move the medivacs will control themselves. 'Lift drop' If you EMP, no ff. If they are zealot heavy, ff is gonna be bad for them (unless you balled instead of concaved). If stalker heavy, medivac is gonna die. 'Spread units' make a concave, yes. You already said kiting zealots 'macro' this isn't part of micro and is more part of multitask. In TvP, if you win the engagement, you win regardless if you floated to 1000 minerals in the fight. 'Snipe', this is hardly going to make a difference in the fight. So, basically, you wrote a lot of words to make it sound like there is a lot to do when in actual fact, you can't even theory craft more micro to do. Concave, e click, t, a click, stutter step. BS like medivac over forcefields and controlling medivacs (if they are going towards enemy, they are not healing! ie they are on move command).
It's more demanding than Protoss which is 1a2a
*Guardian shield if you still have sentries lategame
*Templar T-click, they should already be spread out
*Concave and don't have zealots in the back
Also, it depends on the stage of the game when Protoss loses his army. If it's when he has 15+ gateways and 2/3 robos, he can easily throw armies away, provided he doesn't get absolutely raped (in which if the opposite happen, terran would lose too).
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On October 01 2011 10:14 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 10:06 Micket wrote:On October 01 2011 09:38 aebriol wrote:
I feel that there is a lot of micro that you should be able to do in big engagements PvT.
* Kite zealots
* Target fire colossus
* EMP clumps of units
* EMP immortals, archons, high templars.
* Control your medivacs so they are properly positioned to not get feedbacked / stormed
* Lift drop off in front or behind forcefields.
* Spread your units to have colossus AE not hit maximum amount of units
* Zealot kiting with stutter step.
* Macro during engagement and set rally points properly depending on how the fight is going / reinforcements are needed.
* Snipe if you have enough spare ghosts.
... possibly more.
To be honest, I feel that a TvP engagement is possibly the fight that is the most micro-intensive?
One of the reasons I don't want to play T is that my APM is far too low to do even half of that stuff properly ... Terran seems like the race that benefit the most from extremely high APM if used effectively. But you hardly have to do all this in order to actually win the fight. If you pull off blancket EMPs you are going to win anyway. Half the things you said are not even clever or efficient. 'Kite Zealots': this is fine, everyone does it. 'Target fire colossus' : this is also fine, but it is hardly difficult. a shift clickclickclickclick, done in less then half a second 'EMP': Obviously important. Next point goes hand in hand. 'Control your medivacs' moot point. If the mmm ball is on attack move the medivacs will control themselves. 'Lift drop' If you EMP, no ff. If they are zealot heavy, ff is gonna be bad for them (unless you balled instead of concaved). If stalker heavy, medivac is gonna die. 'Spread units' make a concave, yes. You already said kiting zealots 'macro' this isn't part of micro and is more part of multitask. In TvP, if you win the engagement, you win regardless if you floated to 1000 minerals in the fight. 'Snipe', this is hardly going to make a difference in the fight. So, basically, you wrote a lot of words to make it sound like there is a lot to do when in actual fact, you can't even theory craft more micro to do. Concave, e click, t, a click, stutter step. BS like medivac over forcefields and controlling medivacs (if they are going towards enemy, they are not healing! ie they are on move command). It's more demanding than Protoss which is 1a2a *Guardian shield if you still have sentries lategame *Templar T-click, they should already be spread out *Concave and don't have zealots in the back Also, it depends on the stage of the game when Protoss loses his army. If it's when he has 15+ gateways and 2/3 robos, he can easily throw armies away, provided he doesn't get absolutely raped (in which if the opposite happen, terran would lose too).
Not really, coming out on top after a Ghost vs HT battle is probably one of the hardest things in the game for a Protoss. You can snipe to your hearts content when sitting in storm, can't say the same for feedbacking in EMPs.
Theres a reason why the resurgence of the protoss in GSTL is hand in hand with the shifting away from HTs back into colossi.
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Whether or not mech is viable in TvP, the bottom line is that bio is the standard in the matchup for every terran progamer, and I think most people can agree that watching a bioball vs colossusball is a lot less interesting than watching a protoss try to exploit mobility while terran uses mech positioning to his advantage.
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Same here... I feel like I just macro up in TvP and maybe do a drop or two, but the big fight really decides to battle, either you come out WAAAY ahead or get obliterated because of HT/Collosus then proceed to losing, really boring compared to vT or vZ
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Oh god this thread is turning into another shitfest about who micros more in PvT/TvP.
Anyway, SC2 protoss is completely designed to counter immobile armies, especially mech. Warpin, Charge, Blink, VRs, Pheonixes, Immortals etc. They especially wanted to make Bio much more viable in SC2 than in SC:BW because they felt that TvP mech was far too hard for casual players and thus introduced the marauder which basically forces the protoss to go AoE because it destroys protoss T1.
Anyway PvT used to be my favorite matchup to watch until the 1/1/1 and mass emp happened because of the wide variety of compositions we saw eg. storm drops, nukes etc.
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
This coming from one of the top Foreigner Terrans who also has a BEASTLY TvP.
Everything he says is true. It's VERY micro intensive for the Terran, but I hesitate to say the same for Protoss. You pre-split to avoid EMPs, A-move in, back up Colossi as necessary, and drop Psi Storms. Lategame Protoss seems very minimal on micro, but early game Protoss all ins are loaded with it (Blink Stalker all ins, PvP 4 Gate wars, and 3 Gate Void Ray).
On October 01 2011 06:34 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:00 n0ise wrote:
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
Terran in SC2 is literally Toss in SCBW. Its not Terran at all. But, really the issue isn't so much the warp gate OP its how protoss is designed. Blizzard made SC2 Protoss by examining its fualts in BW and buffing it. At the same time they had to nerf some things to keep it balance. Immortals, Charge, Blink, Fast 9 range Reavers. Hell even Archons counter mech now. Also if you were around when Dustin was giving his ideas on Terran. He wanted to make Terran bio very viable vs Protoss. As we all now TvP was by far the hardest match up to play. Terran could be building and in 1 fell swope lose to a 1a Goon Zeal push. Thats why we have quick emps and marauders know. Blizzard made bio the main stay on purpose. And it makes the match up very stale. I have a sad 50min replay if you want to see. Where I struggle to make mech work, but to no avail T_T.
Hmmm... I suppose there is some truth to what you say. Terran in BW could straight up die to Zealot rushes at the lower level (like 2 Zealots). At the lower level of PvT, Protoss players can straight up die to a properly executed 1 Barracks pressure expand (1 Marine and 2 Marauders with slow). Something similar could be said about the 2 base Terran timing attacks that hit around the 10 minute mark. But Terran can't just sit right out of range of a Protoss expansion hitting it for free like Protoss could with Range upgraded Dragoons in BW.
But Reavers did NOT need to be sped up. Using Shuttles to move them around quickly was fine, it's what some Terrans do to reinforce with mech units (Thors or Tanks) more quickly.
And with the buff to Warp Prism encouraging Warp Prism play, players are having huge headaches dealing with 6-8 units in their base.
On October 01 2011 06:00 n0ise wrote:
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
I don't know where you're quoting that. The OP says he hates using mass T1 units. And to be honest, I'm tired of massing pure bio for the sake of it being the only safe composition and that transitioning to anything else takes too long. I still feel Mech is viable when played very well, but it has so many holes in it now.
And I would much rather use Tanks than bio. But to be honest, Tanks are a very easy unit to use if you know how to properly use them. Bio in TvZ is gimmicky, but can still work if you force early Roaches and there aren't any Banelings (and a low Speedling count). Bio in TvT has a purpose (that it counters pure mech similar to how pure mech countered bio mech, which counters bio). Bio in TvP has no real purpose other than it's the best choice, which still isn't that good of a choice. This is partly due to how freakin' quickly you can die to a Protoss all in out of nowhere. Zerg can get around that with how quickly they can pump units and the fact that Zerglings are so cheap and so insanely fast. I mean, if you can spend 25 minerals immediately on a scout, and whenever the Protoss moves out have it back in your base in like 20 seconds, it's a HUGE bonus. Terran can't do that. Their timings to move out hit RIGHT BEFORE Warp Gate finishes. So you move out, didn't scout the proxy Pylon at your third (or some other position), then when you hit his base with 3-6 units, he hits your base with like 4 Stalkers and 2 Zealots and you just facepalm.
I feel like all the matchups involving Protoss just got shot to hell.
As for TvZ, there are ways to play macro TvZ, but it's different from standard macro play due to the nature of Zerg production. You can play high economy macro play or low economy macro play (which Mvp advocates). The game doesn't necessarily have to swing in one player or another's favor after a Terran timing attack, especially if a Terran intends to macro behind it. If a Zerg is forced at a certain time during the game to stop powering Drones and instead power his army production, Terran is relatively fine as long as he constantly keeps Zerg's army as close to 0 as possible after each battle so that Terran can continuously repeat the cycle until he can get on even footing with the Zerg (by not cutting SCV production), where MULES will help them get ahead. It's up to Zerg to be as greedy as possible to carry themselves into the mid-game then they have to use their micro and positioning to be as cost efficient with their units as possible to squeeze out enough of an edge to allow them to squeeze in a few Drones before the next push. The fact is, if you know when you have timings to attack and take them, you'll generally be safe to do damage to give yourself a lead without committing to an all in (like by cutting SCV production beforehand and so on). But you also need to know when to defend and not over-extend, or you lose everything.
You can't really straight outmacro a Zerg... You can let them get VASTLY ahead, then try to catch up, but you're relying on the Zerg to make a lot of mistakes (max out too early on useless low tier units that won't break the Terran front then suiciding them into the Terran wall a few times as the Terran maxes out).
And Broodlord+Infestor doesn't mean it's over if you have Ghosts... If you don't... Well... If you can't kill the Broodlords... lol
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On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:
That Idea about having to crush zerg before the 10 min mark is total b.s. Its a fib told by qqers. Terran can hold their own against Zerg in a long macro game. That is until BL infestor comes out. Then its gg. But thats around the 25 min mark.
not if they make ghosts
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On October 01 2011 06:45 willsterben wrote:
reading this thread feels like you guys somehow forgot that tvp is the most broken matchup in the game in favor of terran.
I thought zvp was statistically the worst balanced match up in terms of win rate in Korea in the relevant recent time span?( http://i.imgur.com/HvaeL.png ) I realize it's not the biggest sample size but 59% to 41% still seems significant
I haven't seen stats for recent GSL win percentages though so those might be skewed like you said if that's what you are referring to, could you link a source or data please? Or did you mean just in your opinion it's the most broken match up despite zerg having a higher win rate.
(I am not saying tvp isn't broken btw I'm just pointing out statistically zvp seemed to be more broken ofc with patch 1.4 this could be quite different, will be interesting to see if with the infestor nerf the trend changes drastically)
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On October 01 2011 09:24 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 08:20 Heavenly wrote:On October 01 2011 08:07 Fission wrote:
I'd really like to see a way to incorporate tanks into TvP. The problem is that pretty much every single toss unit is designed to be a counter to tanks, some more than others. I can't really forsee tvp moving away from pure bio tbh.
Basically, a tank heavy composition could beat, in theory, the standard "deathball" stalker/collo/immortal w/e if you had good upgrades, emps, and ravens to PDD or HSM. The problem is fighting mass chargelot. Tanks are just irredeemably bad against chargelots. Maybe a slow, slow push with +armor upgrade bunkers and banshees to force stalkers? uh...hellions? The basic mech unit that you can pump out of a factory two at a time with a reactor? Don't be silly, hellions are terrible vs charge* zealots, especially now with the BF nerf.
-_- bro... I Mech in TvP and I will tell you chargelots aren't an issue. Even with the nerf Hellions are great against Zeals and a very cost effective counter.
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Sorry I don't have much time to elaborate on my thoughts before I have to run but I feel like the marine is too all purpose, especially compared to BW match ups. I don't really get why they got rid of the marine range upgrade from BW and gave it to the marine pre-baked. To me that's like giving zerglings the speed upgrade default.
Now I know there are already too many upgrades in the tech lab but I don't see why marines get a free ride with getting 5 range right off the bat. Maybe adding an upgrade in the reactor for upgrading 4 range to 5? Then to compensate maybe we can give the siege tank some of its damage they nerfed in some of the earlier patches? That way early game terran bio wouldn't be so dominating but late game would be buffed to make up for it. Any thoughts?
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I feel TvP is fairly micro intensive. Definately more so than TvT and debatable with TvZ. With TvZ you can pre-split a lot of the time and position your tanks nicely. With TvP you can pre-spread, but still you have to emp with your ghosts, stutterstep your MM and target collusus with your vikings.
Anyway, I don't feel like mech has been fully explored either. Hellions are really underrated for killing zealots / stalkers and thors and tanks can hold their own against most of the protoss arsenal. Mix in some vikings for collusus or ghosts for high templars (EMP your own thors!).
That said, I dislike TvP the most also. A lot of the time it seems to come down to either:
- Emp vs Storm
- Does he have enough vikings? Or too many?
Maybe if we do start seeing more mech, either in this expansion or the next, the match up will become more interesting for a spectator.
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more mech! i didn't pick terran to play PvT blizzard :/
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On October 01 2011 07:00 LordVogelweide wrote:
Nice read through your post but what I think is:
Isnt Goody a perfekt example that you are wrong?He is playing in almost every circumstance mech. TvP, TVT,and TVZ.
I am not coming from Brood War nor SC1 but I think tanks are really really boring to watch. I really hate every games tanks are in. Especially terran vs terran.
There is no fun in watching the whole game two tank armys are standing next to each waiting for the one making a wrong move. Its probably intense for the players, but it is extremely boring to watch.
And whats with 1-1-1 . Yes you see it rarely but why do you bother others gameplay?You could play 1-1-1 have your tanks and still crush Protoss, especially in ladder, nearly every time with a proper execution.
To the micro part:
Yes that are probably just 4-5 seconds of really really intense action, but you have to do so many things in that matchup in a battle like Thorzain mentioned. You got the same result in a TvZ. With banelings, infestors etc. And in a TvT alot of fights are not even one second, due to a missclick losing alot of units.
I have just seen one exciting TvT in about 50, because of tanks. I mostly watch Sc2 and dont play it very often, but atleast I am diamond and I am ok with this..
My cents
Goody's TvP is his worst MU for a reason mech isn't that strong against Toss.
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On October 01 2011 11:59 kidcrash wrote:
Sorry I don't have much time to elaborate on my thoughts before I have to run but I feel like the marine is too all purpose, especially compared to BW match ups. I don't really get why they got rid of the marine range upgrade from BW and gave it to the marine pre-baked. To me that's like giving zerglings the speed upgrade default.
Now I know there are already too many upgrades in the tech lab but I don't see why marines get a free ride with getting 5 range right off the bat. Maybe adding an upgrade in the reactor for upgrading 4 range to 5? Then to compensate maybe we can give the siege tank some of its damage they nerfed in some of the earlier patches? That way early game terran bio wouldn't be so dominating but late game would be buffed to make up for it. Any thoughts?
Its not that Marines are to all purpose. Its that Zerglings were nerfed from BW. They used to actually be able to kill large clumps of Marines. And in TvP Marines are an issue the same as they were in BW. The diffrence in that BW nobady made them because 1 reaver means gg marines. In SC2 Splash comes very later and Marauders flipping Marauders.
Adding a range upgrade won't change anything. Also did you know that stim was nerfed from its BW counterpart? I'm to completely tired of people saying that Marines are to all purpose when Protosses just spam Blink stalkers in PvP and PvZ. The only reason they don;t in TvP is because Marauders crap on anything armored.
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EDIT:
Well, looks like someone already said most of the things I am thinking and did a much better job of it. If you have already read this link, feel free to skip ahead!
The issue at the pro level is not that the Terran player has to micro more, it is that they get to micro more. Terran units in current TvP have far more opportunities for micro to increase their effectiveness, in my opinion. So, for average players, it is hard, because not everyone can do all those things Thorzain talked about well enough to beat a big Protoss army, but at the highest level, a good Terran player can smash a Protoss player and there little room for the Protoss to work with in a battle of control (there is a similar relationship in TvZ when a Zerg player is trying to fight bio with banelings. This is why the lurker is a better unit, but that seems like a different conversation).
On October 01 2011 07:01 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:56 homeless_guy wrote:On October 01 2011 06:54 Noocta wrote:
To be honest, it's mainly because of protoss design. Terran ain't really the problem. ( if we're talking about design and not balance )
Warpgate technologie and Colossus both force your opponent into certains thing that make a XvP pretty straight forward " Do that or lose " I understand your point about colo., but can you explain what you mean about WG? They wanted to make the Colossus idea work so hard, i think they ended up screwing everything else design wise.
In my mind, this is the biggest problem with Protoss and kind of in SC2 as a whole. The entire Protoss race seems like it was designed by saying "wouldn't it be cool if..." instead of thinking about game mechanics. Forcefield, colossus, warp gate, mothership, phoenix - wouldn't it be cool if..."Protoss could modify the map terrain" "there was a giant War of the Worlds tripod style unit" "players could control that Protoss warp technology for their units" "we brought in the giant Protoss world ships" "a unit could shoot while moving". I'd say the same thing seems to apply to reapers (jet packs), hellions (flame throwers), thors (giant battle mechs) and banelings (explosions/goo). Then game mechanics and balance are worked in around all of this, the "really important stuff".
Another point, look at the new SC2 units compared to BW units that were lost and their micro potential (vultures to hellions, lurkers to banelings, reaver to colossus, goliaths to thors, defilers and dark swarm to infestors with fungal growth) and new SC2 units alone (roaches, marauders with concussive shells, broodlords). Micro just took a real shot to the pills with a lot of these. Though, I will say, SC2 devs did have successes: I think blink stalkers are tits, the vikings as transformers has worked out really well, and phoenix (not counting gravitron beam - I am no big fan of any snares/stuns) are one of my favorite units. Roaches with burrow also had potential to be like blink stalkers, I think, but it just hasn't worked out. Still a good idea, though. Then compare the number of micro stopping abilities in BW to the number in SC2 (lockdown vs concussive shells, forcefield, gravitron beam, fungal growth, ).
I seem to have gotten off topic...oh yes:
Chronoboost is dick compared to MULE and inject. It is great early game and has uses in the mid game, but it's potential for greatness is significantly lower, I think, then the other two macro mechanics. Inject and larve lets you remax and/or 100% tech swith almost instantly. MULEs let Terran players make phenomenal comebacks, abandon SCV's entirely and they can even be dropped on banrlings/tanks. Chronoboost? Nothing beyond its initial purpose of making things slightly faster.
So, I think Protoss needs less fluff and more practicality and both chronoboost and warpgate need overalls or a just to be replaced entirely. This would make the race more interesting and allow for sensible buffs and balancing, instead of trying to dance around all the "coolness".
As for the matchup of TvP, one problem is that Terran players are almost pigeonholed into going bio. In TvT or TvZ, there are options of full mech, biomech on a sliding scale and full bio. Each composition has its own style and strategy. TvP, however, feels like there is a lot less choice in composition/tactics on the Terran side. I think a lot of excitement could be added to TvP if there was simply more choice. However, personally, I will always prefer bio, I think. Biomech can be good, too (I like tanks), but Thors are too clunky and hellions too one dimensional, in my opinion.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Also, vultures really should come back. Seriously. This one unit adds so much micro. It could also make mech in TvP much more viable. If I got just one StarCraft development related wish, it would be for vultures to come back. I love them so much.
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After reading this thread, I agree SC2 may have it's problems in the T v P matchup... but people! Please remember the game is still relatively new. No one has any idea what HoTS will bring to us yet.
Me personally, I am sick and tired of people comparing SC1 to SC2. When will people realise SC2 is a "different" game?!?! Just let go of SC1 already, yes the games were awesome to watch. but guess what, it's now outdated (graphics are crap and not easy on the eyes) and it's only a matter of time now until SC1 dies out.
Honestly, it seems like you guys just want to turn SC2 into Broodwar...... if so, what is the point of having an SC2?
EDIT: I'm actually a terran player and I do hope the return of a vulture like unit comes in Hots. Wouldn't it be awesome if hellions got the ability to reseach "Mines."
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EPT
