[D] Terran, TvP and game-design - Page 6

On October 01 2011 18:14 RyLai wrote:


We know what Dustin Browder is thinking with HotS "take out some units and add nothing". They said in an interview that they weren't sure about adding new units, but were thinking of removing some units. I hope to God they take out the Colossus, the Banshee, the Warp Prism or the Warp In mechanic, and Roaches (and replace them with something fucking decent or give back the old Hydras).

And I don't mind SC2 basically turning into Broodwar. It means having a game as awesome as Broodwar without having an extra 50-100 APM spent solely on making sure your macro is going (clicking all your production buildings and making your workers mine) as well as not having to spend an extra 5-10 actions to make sure your units are doing what you want them to do (because of the retarded pathing and AI). But that would likely create some imbalances... So I guess a brand new game isn't so bad either... If only they could get SC2:BW to work properly.



To be honest, I found TvP in BW to look boring as eff to watch as well simply because you HAD to mass an army in order to engage, and before you did that, you needed to be sure you were safe so you set up this giant Tank line and slow pushed across the map with Spider Mines and Tanks at the speed of a slug on superglue. TvT was a little more interesting...

But in SC2's TvZ, if they siege their Tanks (unless it's at a gold base in the middle of the map with access to every other base on the freakin' map), it doesn't necessarily mean the game is going to be stagnant for the next 30 minutes.



Yeah... Simple thoughts... We're going to make PvT even easier in the early game! You want to 1 Rax FE without gas? YOU DIE TO STALKERS! LOLOLOLOLOLOL Stalkers come in, pokes the range 5 Marines in the Bunker (4+1), and just laughs as the better pathing and AI allows the Stalkers to simply be clicked onto the Bunker to safely harass it. Unless the range upgrade finishes really quickly for relatively low cost (otherwise Terran can never FE vs Protoss due to the low gas count from 1 Rax FE and 14 CC).

If you nerf the Marine, early game Terran will be near impossible unless they get a massive buff elsewhere or nerf the Protoss or Terran starts cheesing the fuck out of Protoss (and gets nerfed again; annnnd we're back to 40 hp 4 range Marines!).

You're focusing on your bias against the Marine (you're a Zerg player huh?) and ignoring how even now in TvP, they aren't that great of a unit. Granted, they're much better than they were in BW, but the only reason they're good is their straight up DPS, which is nice to have against the beefy ass Protoss units, but they're also squishy as eff and straight up die to Storms and Colossi. However, players like EG.PuMa have shown that heavy Marine compositions CAN work IF AND ONLY IF you have Ghosts and your opponent went for Templar-based play (since you EMP or Snipe the High Templar before they can Psi Storm you, removing their splash damage [aside from Archons which should be weakened with several EMPs] and allowing you to use the sheer DPS of the Marine to deal with the Protoss units. I've tried Marines+Ghosts+Vikings+Medivacs in a game on Taldarim once, and it should've been a victory if my Barracks weren't improperly rallied, leaving me with 30 Marines at home and wondering why my Supply was so high but my army size was so small... It would've helped a lot when I pushed his main while he had no units... -.-

Marines are good, but it's still very sketchy to use a heavily Marine-based play in TvP... You need to play it very well for it to work. But this illustrates a bit of how useless the Marauder is... It's only good against Stalkers, Hydras (oddly enough they're reasonable against them), Roaches, Infestors?, Ultralisks?, Siege Tanks, and Thors (somewhat). Sure, you can use them to kite Zealots, but the units behind the Zealot wall will still be doing damage to your units. Might as well have them be Marines and clear up the Zealots a bit faster eh? Or is this a testament to how freakin' good Marines are? A little bit of both... (Thank God MarineKing opened our eyes!)

The big problem right now with buffing the Tank is that 1-1-1 would be more difficult to deal with... Do we really want that? Nerf Marines and buff the Tank... Then we have an issue with early game PvT where Protoss can harass like mad until a Siege Tank with Siege or that Marine range upgrade finishes. On the other hand, I'm all for it in terms of TvZ and TvT. It makes Mech a little bit better early on (due to Hellions outranging Marines allowing them to kite perfectly forever - wait... is that a good thing??). And for TvZ, well the 2 Rax becomes a bit weaker.

It's a good idea for 2 out of the 3 matchups (sort of questionable in TvT though), but it's a TERRIBLE idea for the matchup we're currently talking about... Did you really think this through??

And on another note, I used to be all for nerfing the Marauder to hell... Now I'm VERY glad that they didn't... Otherwise... What would Terran do? Go for a weak mech opening? Mass Marines and get kited by Stalkers all day?