EPT[D] Terran, TvP and game-design - Page 8
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Grampz
United States2147 Posts
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IGotPlayguuu
Italy660 Posts
On October 02 2011 04:34 Alzadar wrote: I don't see how this is so different from in BW where mech is the only option in TvP (unless you are Boxer). Not every strategy has to be viable; in fact the game would be stupid if that were the case. I can't go pure Robotics in any match-up. Immortals should be able to shoot air, to make Robotics play viable. Because I should be able to use only 1/3rd of my tech options and win. Yes, that's true, but mech required was more entertaining to play and watch because it was an epic fight: zealot bombing and carpet storms to break a huge siege line, goon trying to flank, vultures protecting flank with mine, mine dragging, ecc... Now is all about (not saying that is easy) 2 balls emping , storming and stutterstepping mainly. There isn't the feeling of an "extended", prolonged battle/warfare, with tank lines covering ground and vulture protecting flanks. It's 2 balls melting in 4-5 seconds. And no, that's not that fun to watch imo. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On October 02 2011 04:54 IGotPlayguuu wrote: Yes, that's true, but mech required was more entertaining to play and watch because it was an epic fight: zealot bombing and carpet storms to break a huge siege line, goon trying to flank, vultures protecting flank with mine, mine dragging, ecc... Now is all about (not saying that is easy) 2 balls emping , storming and stutterstepping mainly. There isn't the feeling of an "extended", prolonged battle/warfare, with tank lines covering ground and vulture protecting flanks. It's 2 balls melting in 4-5 seconds. And no, that's not that fun to watch imo. Whoops. More Broodwar fanbois. Read my last 2 posts. Counter them. If you want a discussion of this caliber (i still can't believe mods are letting this thread go) then have a proper discussion please. | ||
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DoctorClock
United States131 Posts
On October 02 2011 04:34 Alzadar wrote: I don't see how this is so different from in BW where mech is the only option in TvP (unless you are Boxer). Not every strategy has to be viable; in fact the game would be stupid if that were the case. I can't go pure Robotics in any match-up. Immortals should be able to shoot air, to make Robotics play viable. Because I should be able to use only 1/3rd of my tech options and win. The difference between Terran going pure Mech and Protoss going pure Robo is that: 1.) In BW, Terran could go pure Mech, so there is precedence. Protoss couldn't go pure Robo in BW so it stands to reason that they also wouldn't in SC2. 2.) Factory tech is a much more complete tech path. Meaning, there are mobile/fast units (Hellions), AoE/Positional units (Siege tanks) and Anti-Air/tanky unit (Thor). Whereas Robo only has a tanky unit (Immortal) and an AoE unit (Colossus) and lacks Anti Air. Looking at this, one would logically assume that you could choose to go either Barracks or Factory tech and have a complete, stand-alone unit composition. Also, the way upgrading works with Terran lends itself to much more one-sided tech paths. 3.) The way Terran teching works makes reaching tier 3 much easier. As a result, the higher tiered units aren't nearly as threatening. For example, the response necessary a few Thors is drastically less significant than the response necessary for a few Colossi. It seems clear from design that Robo is meant to be a support tech path (Whether or not this should be different is a different argument entirely). Factory tech, however, appears to be a complete tech path, and it can be in TvZ and TvT, but it doesn't work well in TvP. It doesn't even work well as a support tech path in TvP as Thors/Tanks are just too immobile, too expensive, and don't do anything that Marines and Marauders don't already do better. This seems to be the issue the OP is raising. Meching works in TvT and TvZ, so why can't/shouldn't/doesn't it work at a high level in TvP? This debate reminds me of Paladins in WoW during Vanilla and BC, where Paladins wanted to do something besides Heal, seeing as they had tanking and DPS trees, and every just kept saying, "but you're so good at healing, so just heal". | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 02 2011 04:54 IGotPlayguuu wrote: Yes, that's true, but mech required was more entertaining to play and watch because it was an epic fight: zealot bombing and carpet storms to break a huge siege line, goon trying to flank, vultures protecting flank with mine, mine dragging, ecc... Now is all about (not saying that is easy) 2 balls emping , storming and stutterstepping mainly. There isn't the feeling of an "extended", prolonged battle/warfare, with tank lines covering ground and vulture protecting flanks. It's 2 balls melting in 4-5 seconds. And no, that's not that fun to watch imo. because the game is too young... Stop expecting 1year old SC2 to be as figuered out as 10year old SC:BW. Once PvT MMM vs Deathball play is so figuered out, that the one that attacks ultimatly has to lose, people will invent new metagame styles and maybe mech-units will play a role in it. Right now we have new styles/builds every GSL-month... GSTL spoiler + Show Spoiler + If you saw TvP in the last 1-2months, Protoss usually was the underdog. CreatorPrime's double forge+blink build broke TvP so hard, that Genius straight up stole it. Those 2players just wrecked terrans with staying on gateway units longer, getting ahead in upgrades, and then adding colossi (like adding insult to injury) We can't know, but in those games, I didn't see any Terran have any clue what to do about that style... Maybe the answer will be MarineKings Marine/Tank TvP build he used in his GSTL match, maybe it will be just more solid Macro play by MVP... | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Edit: 111 doesn't contain marauders, but contain siege tanks. There you go: buff 111. | ||
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kedarking
Netherlands98 Posts
Secondly: Have you ever thought about the fact that the BW games we see now, are of a game that has been played for over ten years? Starcraft 2 has been out for roughly a year now, so the Matchups and strategies, and even the game itself (two expansions coming up?) aren't even close to completely developed yet. | ||
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IGotPlayguuu
Italy660 Posts
On October 02 2011 04:58 ohampatu wrote: Whoops. More Broodwar fanbois. Read my last 2 posts. Counter them. If you want a discussion of this caliber (i still can't believe mods are letting this thread go) then have a proper discussion please. we're not complaining that mecch isn't viable and T has too few strategy,we're complaining that theoretically mech fights would allow for more interesting and strategic fights than bio balls clashing. We're not saying tha toss>terran. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters. If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech. Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game. Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:03 DoctorClock wrote: 2.) Factory tech is a much more complete tech path. Meaning, there are mobile/fast units (Hellions), AoE/Positional units (Siege tanks) and Anti-Air/tanky unit (Thor). Whereas Robo only has a tanky unit (Immortal) and an AoE unit (Colossus) and lacks Anti Air. Looking at this, one would logically assume that you could choose to go either Barracks or Factory tech and have a complete, stand-alone unit composition. Also, the way upgrading works with Terran lends itself to much more one-sided tech paths. Yes and no... Factory tech was clearly designed to be kind of complete. But only kind of, because due to reactor/techlab addons in SC2, it is way easier to go hybrid styles (which is also clearly a part of the design) and also because Factory lacks anti air. Agreed that Thors do fine vs Mutalisks and banshees. But that's only because blizzard wanted them to do well vs light air. Factory antiair just sucks against stronger anti air, since they moved the viking from the factory to the starport (another sign, that Mech isn't supposed to work on it's on, but against air only in a conjunction with starport units or with marines) Also I want to point out, that Zerg Upgrades work similar as Terran upgrades (yes we have one less armor upgrade), still Zerg is supposed to counter Mech with Roaches... with every other unit that is being used in this matchup being melee... (and with Zerg not having any good lategame range composition, since they removed the lurker and nerfed the roach to 1supply) | ||
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attwell
United States220 Posts
Personally I think tanks are very powerful in TvP, just not against tech that will always be targeted at countering tanks. Against robo and stargate builds they tend to fail, but tanks do own gateway units, which I feel is why protoss tech past that asap. Tanks are a very powerful unit, which I feel is why they are so readily countered. Doing anything except that against a terran playing defensively is suicide. In essence the problem with tanks is that they are such a pivotal unit that the TvP matchup is based around countering them. *Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and are microed against the wrong units, especially when they target chargelots next to your bio units. With proper micro though you can still use tanks against gateway unit armies. *Immortals hard counter tanks so I think its a little ridiculous to to expect to still be able to make tanks and win, why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals (in the OP you complain about losing 20 instantly)? Luckily for terran it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, which is part of what you are complaining about and i agree, why do terran have to make tier 1 units to counter tier 2 units that are used to counter tanks, but what are you complaining about, this is to your benefit, even if it is boring. Ghosts are less boring imo and counter immortals better depending on how you use them. *Void rays counter tanks, but are in an expensive tech tree with expensive units and only sometimes counters tanks when you leave them. Luckily for terran, marines counter VRs too. *Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do fairly minimal damage for the costs, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks. I guess this highlights both of your problems, terran is forced to use mostly tier 1 units to counter units that protoss makes specifically to counter tanks, unfortunately, I have no idea as to a solution for this matchup. However i also don't consider the match up "broken" as much as i consider it stagnant and repetitive. I don't think this needs to be fixed immediately, but perhaps in the future as strategy evolves they may find a solution for this. | ||
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DoctorClock
United States131 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote: Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of: Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters. If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech. Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game. Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. SC2 is a sequel. It stands to reason that there would be significant carry-over and the way the race felt/plays would be similar so how it played in the previous game. This is true in TvZ and TvT for the most part, so why does TvP in SC2 feel so overwhelmingly un-Terran as compared to the previous game? I understand it is a new game, but can you imagine the outrage if in the new Street Fighter game Ryu's Haduken suddenly became not a staple ability? Or Dhalsim's reach suddenly became less significant because certain characters had teleport? | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote: I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me! Ya, I feel this way in my TvP bio engagements. I usually am overwhelmed by everything I need to do and control. So in the sense of difficulty, I don't feel like mid/late game tvp engagements are lacking. Bio might be less exciting to watch then with tanks, but I'm not so certain about this either. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote: Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered? Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do. Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts. Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here. Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks. So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. You have no idea who Predy is, do you? | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote: Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered? Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do. Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts. Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here. Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks. So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. yeahhh, no. + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote: Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of: Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters. If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech. Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game. Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. so i assume you've never played broodwar nor watched it which means you shouldn't really talk about something you don't understand. from your tone it's obvious you'd like to flame so i'm not sure what to do now. i can probably tell you what i mean by the OP but you'll probably won't care anyway. in starcraft all races are different yet you talk about every race using their tier 1 units with some tech support and caster support which is fine. as someone already stated, factory tech is a more completed tech than robo tech which act as a support to main ground gateway force. it was the same in BW, where there were reaver, HT and arbiters. How do you explain that in sc2 in tvt pure mech is viable in tvt and tvz but not in tvp. My point was that TvP in sc2 is very limited unlike the other 2 matchups and very stale, not fun to play. I tried to explain why mech (tanks) make the game exciting, i don't know what you didnt understand. I stated it's my personal oppinion which means you don't have to agree with me. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
He may not know. But i can state im prolly the biggest 'arguer' against his statements if you read the whole thread. I do know who he is. I even stated i thought i was outrageous that person of his caliber was complaining. I made 2 'half page' posts. The first was addressed, although to be honest it was more just me being bashed on. The 2nd was ignored. I have tried to make it a discussion, I included paragraphs and examples of all races. You terrans dont care what we say. So why should i care what you say? I really get that alot of Broodwar people want it to be like Broodwar. But alot of us dont want it to be like Broodwar. Ignoring my huge rants earlier, the problem really comes down to it not being fair racial wise. All races are bottlenecked into this. This thread was summed up after the first post that 'n0ise' made. I dont see anybody discussing this. I only see Terrans complaining. The battle.net forums are --------> way | ||
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ranjutan
United States636 Posts
 ... The 'f.e.' instead of 'e.g.' kept making me think 'fast expand'  . | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:38 PredY wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote: Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered? Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do. Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts. Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here. Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks. So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. yeahhh, no. + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote: Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of: Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters. If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech. Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game. Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. so i assume you've never played broodwar nor watched it which means you shouldn't really talk about something you don't understand. from your tone it's obvious you'd like to flame so i'm not sure what to do now. i can probably tell you what i mean by the OP but you'll probably won't care anyway. in starcraft all races are different yet you talk about every race using their tier 1 units with some tech support and caster support which is fine. as someone already stated, factory tech is a more completed tech than robo tech which act as a support to main ground gateway force. it was the same in BW, where there were reaver, HT and arbiters. How do you explain that in sc2 in tvt pure mech is viable in tvt and tvz but not in tvp. My point was that TvP in sc2 is very limited unlike the other 2 matchups and very stale, not fun to play. I tried to explain why mech (tanks) make the game exciting, i don't know what you didnt understand. I stated it's my personal oppinion which means you don't have to agree with me. Thanks for responding. Im not trying to be a flamer or anything like that. The 2nd half page post I made was thought out imo, trying to showcase how i saw the game. Believe me i wouldn't waste 200 words on a thread for no reason other than to make you mad, its not worth my time. Again, all it feels like is that im being bashed for showing the obvious 'relationships' between the races and how the game 'plays out'. Why does the argument have to be 'factory tech is more complete so it should work'. Or 'it works in TvT' but nothing else. It doesn't work in all mu's. It works for certain unit comps, and Zerg and Terran unit comps allow the full mech to work. Protoss unit comps do not (according to you and apparently every terran, which i disagree on). Each race is designed differently. But still falls to the same thing i stated then. What 'n0ise' posted was completely accurate. What i want is a discussion that doesn't revolve around Broodwar or Race vs Race. I wish you would look at unit comp instead and base it off of that. Because of the way Terran and Zerg play out through the game, it leaves it possibly to play almost purely mech against them. To be honest though nobody really plays full mech, most people do a hybrid bio-mech. Even pure late game mech included ghosts. Protoss isn't like that though. The current unit comps that Protoss favors currently seem to decimate pure mech. Thats just how the game is. Like in your original post i did play beta, and remember the 60 dmg. And it needed nerfed. It didn't break tvz. It didn't break tvp. It didn't break tvz. The 60 dmg was just too much at the time, partiall because of the maps. Do you remember playing TvP on Steppes? As a toss it was ridiculous to fight turtle terrans on some maps. This may be able to be changed back now. Hell do it for all i care to see if tanks become more viable. Id rather have a discusion in how to make changes to Terran to make it work vs Protoss then argue about why it worked in Broodwar and why it doesn't work now. Edit: It just feels to me like you think its fine if Terran has all these different options and tech choices and you dont mind ignoring that the other races aren't like this. I feel like you want Terran to be Broodwar Terran. Well, i hate having to make a robo every single game. You think blizzard cares? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:38 PredY wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote: Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered? Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do. Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts. Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here. Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks. So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. yeahhh, no. + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote: Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of: Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters. If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech. Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game. Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. so i assume you've never played broodwar nor watched it which means you shouldn't really talk about something you don't understand. from your tone it's obvious you'd like to flame so i'm not sure what to do now. i can probably tell you what i mean by the OP but you'll probably won't care anyway. in starcraft all races are different yet you talk about every race using their tier 1 units with some tech support and caster support which is fine. as someone already stated, factory tech is a more completed tech than robo tech which act as a support to main ground gateway force. it was the same in BW, where there were reaver, HT and arbiters. How do you explain that in sc2 in tvt pure mech is viable in tvt and tvz but not in tvp. My point was that TvP in sc2 is very limited unlike the other 2 matchups and very stale, not fun to play. I tried to explain why mech (tanks) make the game exciting, i don't know what you didnt understand. I stated it's my personal oppinion which means you don't have to agree with me. In TvT Mech is viable, because it deals easily with Marines, so there is no threat from bio in straigth engagements, as the marauder on it's own just isn't a very good unit. In TvZ Mech is viable, because Zerg doesn't know how many Tanks/Thors you currently have, so bad zergs may lose to it... | ||
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