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One of the better OP's I have read in this forum, exactly parallels my thinking on a variety of levels. Also, I am sure I am not alone in this. More people than OP, PredY, and myself have this understanding of the game.
I would like to add a few points however. Map control being the most important of them. I feel that it is simply wrong the way the current SC2 system evaluates the meaning of "map control." Right here in the TL strategy forum you will read people say things like "only one person can have map control at a time" and might even claim such a thing is "obvious." This is preposterous. Map control is simply control of areas of the map. If you control the ENTIRE map, then I suppose you have map control and the other player cannot, but that is an unusual edge case. Most of the time you should have control of some areas, and your opponent should have control of other areas.
Every race needs the tools for strong positional play. Abilities like spider mines, units like lurkers. Abilities and effects that can give a strong local advantage such as dark swarm (also positional). This is very lacking in Starcraft 2 at the moment, and creates these extremely fast, aggressive, low-tech games where defensive, reactive play is either disincentivized or purely unnecessary. All you get are better tools to aggress against the enemy army directly, which you could do equally well with MORE UNITS, having the added advantage of hitting sooner. In the event that both players play defensively, all you get is two blobs smashing into one another to decide the winner. Silly.
Localization and positional play mean the player that splits their army up effectively has a huge combat advantage. Rather than having two armies of half strength, you have two groups which significantly outperform the blob you would get if you balled them together. Divide again to amplify the effect further, down to the minimum effective combat group size determined by your opponent's force distribution.
Blizzard is almost thinking like a noob in that they are very focused on unit composition and not on tactical play- they assume you have 'an army.' This is further evidenced by their treatment of unit supply costs. Hydralisks, roaches, ultras, siege tanks, immortals, thors, colossi, motherships, all have huge supply costs to justify big 'cool' units. Starcraft would, like most strategy games, be much stronger with more units (more pieces) than with bigger arbitrary stats ("stronger" pieces, which makes no sense since strength is relative). The improved pathing and unit AI also means units blob up more effectively, which means more positional play elements should be added to incentivize splitting forces up. Splash damage is the idiot's solution because... micro, or counter to nullify splash damage dealing unit. Back to "unit composition is king" thinking.
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
I agree that TvP is very micro-intensive, but I feel that PredY is right in the fact that it is also a very one-dimensional match-up. You rarely see anything more than MMM and then if the P has Colossi and you don't have Vikings, you lose, and if the P has High Templar and you don't have Ghosts, you lose. It's just not a horribly fun match-up to play, because other than cheeses and timing attacks, there is very little differences in the play styles.
That being said, builds like what we saw Byun do in Code A (easily one of the coolest builds I've ever seen) gives me hope that eventually we'll see an increase in mech usage. Personally, I feel that mech is fun to play in TvP, but it's just not nearly as good as bio.
I think it would be cooler if in HotS they nerfed bio, but made mech a lot stronger.
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We don't see bio used in either of the other two terran match ups. Why do we need it to disappear from the game entirely? OP is acting like there is no skill to micro bio ball vs protoss, but it's simply not true. If anything it will probably become even more interesting to micro in the future, if the ghost gets nerfed, as many suspect it will.
You also have to consider the possibility that tanks currently ARE viable versus protoss, but terrans just have not developed the style to properly use them yet. There's no way to confirm either way whether they are actually good or not until we see the level of play get higher. Give it time, and in the mean time, use your bio composition, which works perfectly well.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 01 2011 07:11 eourcs wrote:
TvP is a really odd matchup, where I think someone with perfect control and macro will be unbeatable, regardless of how well the Protoss plays (this is barring 1-1-1 which I do think is imbalanced), but like 99% of players I don't have that, so the matchup is hard as fuck. At the highest level, it's possible that it's imbalanced, but at every other level, the people who complain about Terran are idiots. Lategame TvP is extremely hard, and personally, I have never seen anybody beat Hasuobs when he gets Templar/Collosus and a solid 3-4 base economy, regardless of how far behind he is.
I feel the opposite - TvP is a matchup where if both players played perfectly, terran should never ever win. So dependant on getting good drops etc.
Of course its pretty damn close to impossible to play the level of perfect that you can consistently every game deny every single drop which might even make it terran favored in reality.
Anyway, I agree 100% with PredY's post, bio TvP makes me want to quit -_-
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On October 02 2011 05:55 ohampatu wrote:What i want is a discussion that doesn't revolve around Broodwar or Race vs Race
Why do you feel entitled to dictating the terms of discussion in thread you did not create?
Fact is, a lot of terrans want to play terran because of the siege tank mechanic - partially because of how it worked in BW. You can't take BW out of the discussion - especially when the OP of the thread contains so many references to it.
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There seems to be a lot of people claiming that Terran is a bit stronger early game but significantly weaker late game. In fact Terran is stronger in both the early (1-2 base) and late game (3-4 bases) if both players are playing well however in the mid-game (2-3 bases) and VERY late-game (5+ bases) Protoss has some timings they can hit where Terran hasn't got the right amount of vikings/ghosts.
Late game only bad Terran players will lose an engagement (or the Protoss player they are playing is WAY better at micro/ahead). Once you get to the VERY late game where Protoss has 5-6 bases and 20+ warpgates they will usually lose a big engagement but obviously they can remax much faster and normally roll over the Terran or at least secure a game-ending advantage.
Protoss relies on Terran mucking up their unit composition (and to be fair it's BLOODY hard to get this right as a Terran, so far it's basically only some Koreans and maybe Thorzain + Select who have done so consistently). When Terran does get it wrong Protoss can win in a pretty easy-looking fashion. The late mid-game is usually when this happens and it's usually a case of not enough vikings + too many marines.
Super-late game Protoss has a mammoth advantage with 80 supply armies coming out in 25s in the middle of the map. If the game gets to this point (assuming the game is relatively even here) There's no way Protoss should lose.
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add spiderminessssssssssss
I really hate playing TvP too, its just frustating. There is a point where protoss has so many bases and warpgates that as terran it's just impossible to win.
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On October 02 2011 11:51 Reptilia wrote:
add spiderminessssssssssss
I really hate playing TvP too, its just frustating. There is a point where protoss has so many bases and warpgates that as terran it's just impossible to win.
As someone said, spidermines would be useless in this game. Colossus + an obs would just clean everything in 2 or 3 volley.
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On October 02 2011 12:08 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 11:51 Reptilia wrote:
add spiderminessssssssssss
I really hate playing TvP too, its just frustating. There is a point where protoss has so many bases and warpgates that as terran it's just impossible to win. As someone said, spidermines would be useless in this game. Colossus + an obs would just clean everything in 2 or 3 volley.
i really don't think they would be useless.
Against their main army head 2 head they would but they would be a nice way of gaining map control and dealing with harass or heavy zealot armies.
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On October 02 2011 06:16 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:55 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 05:38 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote:
Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered?
Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do.
Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts.
Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here.
Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks.
So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. yeahhh, no. + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote:
Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of:
Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters.
If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech.
Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game.
Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. so i assume you've never played broodwar nor watched it which means you shouldn't really talk about something you don't understand. from your tone it's obvious you'd like to flame so i'm not sure what to do now. i can probably tell you what i mean by the OP but you'll probably won't care anyway. in starcraft all races are different yet you talk about every race using their tier 1 units with some tech support and caster support which is fine. as someone already stated, factory tech is a more completed tech than robo tech which act as a support to main ground gateway force. it was the same in BW, where there were reaver, HT and arbiters. How do you explain that in sc2 in tvt pure mech is viable in tvt and tvz but not in tvp. My point was that TvP in sc2 is very limited unlike the other 2 matchups and very stale, not fun to play. I tried to explain why mech (tanks) make the game exciting, i don't know what you didnt understand. I stated it's my personal oppinion which means you don't have to agree with me. Thanks for responding. Im not trying to be a flamer or anything like that. The 2nd half page post I made was thought out imo, trying to showcase how i saw the game. Believe me i wouldn't waste 200 words on a thread for no reason other than to make you mad, its not worth my time. Again, all it feels like is that im being bashed for showing the obvious 'relationships' between the races and how the game 'plays out'. Why does the argument have to be 'factory tech is more complete so it should work'. Or 'it works in TvT' but nothing else. It doesn't work in all mu's. It works for certain unit comps, and Zerg and Terran unit comps allow the full mech to work. Protoss unit comps do not (according to you and apparently every terran, which i disagree on). Each race is designed differently. But still falls to the same thing i stated then. What 'n0ise' posted was completely accurate. What i want is a discussion that doesn't revolve around Broodwar or Race vs Race. I wish you would look at unit comp instead and base it off of that. Because of the way Terran and Zerg play out through the game, it leaves it possibly to play almost purely mech against them. To be honest though nobody really plays full mech, most people do a hybrid bio-mech. Even pure late game mech included ghosts. Protoss isn't like that though. The current unit comps that Protoss favors currently seem to decimate pure mech. Thats just how the game is. Like in your original post i did play beta, and remember the 60 dmg. And it needed nerfed. It didn't break tvz. It didn't break tvp. It didn't break tvz. The 60 dmg was just too much at the time, partiall because of the maps. Do you remember playing TvP on Steppes? As a toss it was ridiculous to fight turtle terrans on some maps. This may be able to be changed back now. Hell do it for all i care to see if tanks become more viable. Id rather have a discusion in how to make changes to Terran to make it work vs Protoss then argue about why it worked in Broodwar and why it doesn't work now. Edit: It just feels to me like you think its fine if Terran has all these different options and tech choices and you dont mind ignoring that the other races aren't like this. I feel like you want Terran to be Broodwar Terran. Well, i hate having to make a robo every single game. You think blizzard cares? yes i know blizzard doesn't care. but as you see in this thread a lot of players tend to agree with me and that means blizzard should care. but they wont i dont have false hopes. i agree that maps like steppes of war forced blizzard into balancing the game in the certain way. then taldarim altar popped out and we had a whole new set of problems. blizzard made a mistake balancing the game around maps like desert oasis and steppes of war. but it's too late to cry over that. i have a very objective look into the matchup dont worry. i can see your arguments being very valid. both races make a lot of low tier units and then add spellcasters and other support units. looks good on the paper right? i understand new people coming in that has no experience with BW and they like it. they like to run around with bio and dropping all over the place etc. it's just the way i (and many others in this thread) see it it just doesn't feel like anything we used to play like for years and years in broodwar. is that a wrong thing? it might be. as i said, on maps likes shakuras plateau it works to go biomech or mech because of the map structure. and that's ok because you can make the decision how you want to play. but on maps like taldarim? hell theres no way to outplay protoss who knows what to do (that comes down to the game and unit mechanics i mentioned like warpgates, mobility etc.). that's the main issue i was trying to make. it's just that tanks were adjusted not to be OP in TvZ and on maps like steppes of war, which makes me really sad as i strongly believe that was a bad move.
Thanks for responding!!
Im not saying i completely disagree with you in getting the units out there. Its just from us new people, and from us people playing the other races, you seem to ask for something we dont have and expect it as standard. Or so it feels like. Thats why alot of toss are responding the way they are in this thread, and i apologize for it. They are just responding to how they see it laid out in front of them. By balance (that may or may not be liked) the game was made very linear.
I think it kinda come's down to a few things. Tanks are seen as the 'terran' unit. I think the last TL poll showed when people thought of the terran they thought of the tank. So naturally there's are large fanbase for it. Im sorry but i can't agree that straight factory/pure mech play needs to be viable in all matchups, when the other races are snowballed in to certain bo's early game to be considered 'safe'. I do agree though that a Bio-Mech should be able to be played in any MU considering map balance. From the posts that I can see here, it really seems like the best solution to make people happy would be to increase maps that allow for tanks to be used, even if its just 2-3. That way different styles of play would be used per different kind of maps. I dont see the 60 dmg coming back. I know you mention it being overpowered in tvz, but it was just as bad for tvp and even tvt from my experiences because of current t1 unit health. Critical masses (8+) just made the game completely stalemate just because everybody is 'scared' to do anything for fear of 50+ pop dieing in 2 seconds. Games were won by having to catch your opponent unsieged. I dont know how that was ever considered fun. Sitting around a map mined out with max army waiting for 'that one chance' to catch him off guard.
So why dont we ask some Map of the Month makers to make some 'clover' like maps. That maybe allow for your set of expansions to be somewhat linear, to make it more viable?
Edit: Well. Im glad Predy replied and was pretty manner. For those of you terrans recently joining the conversation who have started to shift it to 'terran unwinnable in late game'. Please lets not do that if possible. Jinro's post for example, is nothing but a complete whine that Protoss is > Terran. None of that contributes to a discussion about tanks being used.
Edit 2: Predy. What is your stance on Antiga shipyard? You mention Shakuras as being mech friendly. Would not Antiga play at least till 4 bases similar to shakuras.
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On October 02 2011 12:08 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 11:51 Reptilia wrote:
add spiderminessssssssssss
I really hate playing TvP too, its just frustating. There is a point where protoss has so many bases and warpgates that as terran it's just impossible to win. As someone said, spidermines would be useless in this game. Colossus + an obs would just clean everything in 2 or 3 volley.
That's not how spider mines work, you could also clean up spider mines very easily in Broodwar with range goons and speedlots.
Spidermines are a great way to keep Protoss bases under control, and keep an eye on the Protoss army.
You can put one spider mine at every base, if it disappears protoss is likely expanding.
You throw spidermines all over the map, if any of them disappear, that's where the protoss army is.
2 vulture 1 tank drop, arguably the most powerful drop in the game if done right. You can keep a base occupied for a very long time with good micro, but its not stupid like a blue flame hellion drop it actually takes a lot of skill, timing, positioning, awareness. Its also very Terran-like, in terms of area control and defense, you take up a tiny pocket of space in someones base and completely deny any access to it.
On October 02 2011 13:21 ohampatu wrote:
I think it kinda come's down to a few things. Tanks are seen as the 'terran' unit. I think the last TL poll showed when people thought of the terran they thought of the tank. So naturally there's are large fanbase for it. Im sorry but i can't agree that straight factory/pure mech play needs to be viable in all matchups, when the other races are snowballed in to certain bo's early game to be considered 'safe'. I do agree though that a Bio-Mech should be able to be played in any MU considering map balance. From the posts that I can see here, it really seems like the best solution to make people happy would be to increase maps that allow for tanks to be used, even if its just 2-3. That way different styles of play would be used per different kind of maps. I dont see the 60 dmg coming back. I know you mention it being overpowered in tvz, but it was just as bad for tvp and even tvt from my experiences because of current t1 unit health. Critical masses (8+) just made the game completely stalemate just because everybody is 'scared' to do anything for fear of 50+ pop dieing in 2 seconds. Games were won by having to catch your opponent unsieged. I dont know how that was ever considered fun. Sitting around a map mined out with max army waiting for 'that one chance' to catch him off guard.
Bio, Mech, Air, and any combination of the 3 should be available in all matchups. Instead we get the one composition over and over in the same matchup, where its just a mishmash of every unit because of how gimmicky they are. For example, the only reason you have vikings is to counter colossus, that's it, it serves no other purpose. Sticking to only a few units against good players will just mean you get countered really hard, and that's bad for strategy and variance.
It's unfortunate that people were upset about Terran Mech because they couldn't just 1a into it and win. I honestly don't understand why these people are playing Starcraft. Protoss has so many extremely powerful units to use against mech unlike BW, void rays, phoenixs, immortals, 9 range colossus, chargelots, blink stalkers. Back then Void Rays were a lot stronger too especially when they could out-range turrets, 3 gate Stargate was basically auto-win against a mech opening.
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Bio, Mech, Air, and any combination of the 3 should be available in all matchups. Instead we get the one composition over and over in the same matchup, where its just a mishmash of every unit because of how gimmicky they are. For example, the only reason you have vikings is to counter colossus, that's it, it serves no other purpose. Sticking to only a few units against good players will just mean you get countered really hard, and that's bad for strategy and variance.
It's unfortunate that people were upset about Terran Mech because they couldn't just 1a into it and win. I honestly don't understand why these people are playing Starcraft. Protoss has so many extremely powerful units to use against mech unlike BW, void rays, phoenixs, immortals, 9 range colossus, chargelots, blink stalkers. Back then Void Rays were a lot stronger too especially when they could out-range turrets, 3 gate Stargate was almost auto-win against a mech opening.
This is why the protoss players are coming in here getting angry. You shouldn't have 3 completely different tech paths that you can do at any point and it be viable throughout the whole game.
Stargate play would like to have a word with you in the PvT MU. I dont care how it was back then. Protoss is forced to play a certain way just so that we dont auto lose. Zerg is forced (in some situations) to play a certain way so they dont autolose. Why are you allowed soo many different options and dislike that they auto lose in some circumstances?
I really like how you ignored the part where i mentioned getting tanks to be a 'standard' or 'staple unit'. Which is what Predy is namely asking for.
I though the map idea was good 
Edit: People were unfortunate about terran mech in beta because it was overpowered.
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I agree with everything you said.Tanks need to be back to 60 damage. They were only nerfed because of TvZ STEPPES OF WAR which is ludicrous to nerf an entire core unit because of close positions and horribly designed maps (remember incineration zone LOL).
I have tried to make mech work for a long while now, and only in the past week or two have i fully switched back to marine marauder, because...i like winning like everyone else does, and mech is just not viable tvp, they took everything that made it viable away.
First the tank. Then the thor. Then the hellion. No change to armory price, no change to anything else, tanks just suck tvp, doubt it will ever change. Nice thread =/ it's just sickening they nerf stuff like the hellion and tank so quickly, but it takes them 5 months + to nerf something as obvious as the infestor.
sighs. I wish you weren't punished for building tanks TvP like predy said, every single protoss unit + warpgate counters mech. Literally every single unit. Most good protoss players, once they see that you are committing to mech, will mass 100% blink stalker+collosus on some maps, or mass charge zealot immortal, or mass void ray...basically ANYTHING. And it destroys mech.
BRING TANKS BACK! =/ mashing the D, A, and V keysin TvP doesn't make me feel skilled as a Terran player, but sadly it's the only thing we can do in TvP.
also fyi @ people saying mech in beta was OP - it wasn't OP. Whiners were OP - there was a huge thread about mech imbalance tvz on ... STEPPES OF WAR...
the map is the size of everyone's pinky, no shit mech was imba on the map. The horrible map pool has actually been the cause for some of the ridiculous changes in the game such as the tank nerf.
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The idiotic thing about the TvZ mech "balancing" is that the only reason it is even a problem is they broke zerg. There are two ways to deal with units that have high lump-sum damage. You can either have a lot of hitpoints, or you can have a large number of units. Protoss exemplifies the first approach, zerg the second.
Zerglings are situationally useful against tanks because of this fact. Although tanks do deal splash damage, it makes no difference if the tank is dishing 35 or 1000 damage to the zerglings- they are absorbing damage with unit count rather than tanking HP. As a result, making roaches, hydras, etc. more expensive and 2 supply fundamentally breaks zerg. Consider the hydralisk. A 1 supply hydralisk can have twice the numbers for the same supply. Now, tanks are supposed to counter hydras so perhaps this is a poor example, but double the hydras and they will work better than they currently do against tanks anyway.
Nerfing tank damage simply makes them useless against protoss. They still kill zerg units in approximately the same manner- kill count rather than tanking HP. Zerg just has fewer units, making that army dramatically more vulnerable to big numbers of damage. I propose the roach and hydra be made 1 supply, reduced model size, and rebalanced to fit for HotS. For the roach this will likely require an HP reduction. If the zerg players around here think it would be a good idea, this might be an especially serious reduction, but give the roach back its 2 armor and unusually fast regeneration. Also, the hydra will most likely require a reduced resource cost. Reduce the ultralisk to 4 supply, shrink model size, and adjust stats if necessary (probably not necessary for ultra).
After we fix zerg then we can start talking about buffing terran mech.
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These seem like first world problems compared to what sad zealot is dealing with.
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On October 02 2011 13:38 ohampatu wrote:
Edit: People were unfortunate about terran mech in beta because it was overpowered.
mech was overpowered on steppes of war and kulas ravine. One tiny map and another with ledges all and narrow chokes all over the place. A 60 damage per shot siege tank would not be overpowered on a map like tal darim, simply because they are so immobile.
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Well I wouldn't exactly call MMM + ghost + viking T1 really, it's just a T1 core with higher tech supporting units. But hey... that's exactly like Protoss with a T1 core (gateway units) with higher tech supporting units (collosi/HT).
What I do agree the OP on is the introduction of these "boring" units and lack of micro. Mobile, super long range units I think are very stupid and not fun (colossi/vikings). Reavers were fun. Spider Mines were cool. Mech play was awesome in BW, and can be that way in SC2.
I hate the whole idea of warpgate tech, and wish they would change it to a defender's advantage mechanic and limit offensive warp-ins in HoTS and then rebalance Protoss T1. Right now Protoss T1 sucks, but their lategame is OP. Statistically speaking overall it may be fairly balanced, but it doesn't promote creative play. All the races should be balanced throughout every portion of the game. I also dislike how to balance the races every map pretty much has to have a narrow ramp.
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On October 02 2011 13:38 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +Bio, Mech, Air, and any combination of the 3 should be available in all matchups. Instead we get the one composition over and over in the same matchup, where its just a mishmash of every unit because of how gimmicky they are. For example, the only reason you have vikings is to counter colossus, that's it, it serves no other purpose. Sticking to only a few units against good players will just mean you get countered really hard, and that's bad for strategy and variance.
It's unfortunate that people were upset about Terran Mech because they couldn't just 1a into it and win. I honestly don't understand why these people are playing Starcraft. Protoss has so many extremely powerful units to use against mech unlike BW, void rays, phoenixs, immortals, 9 range colossus, chargelots, blink stalkers. Back then Void Rays were a lot stronger too especially when they could out-range turrets, 3 gate Stargate was almost auto-win against a mech opening. This is why the protoss players are coming in here getting angry. You shouldn't have 3 completely different tech paths that you can do at any point and it be viable throughout the whole game. Stargate play would like to have a word with you in the PvT MU. I dont care how it was back then. Protoss is forced to play a certain way just so that we dont auto lose. Zerg is forced (in some situations) to play a certain way so they dont autolose. Why are you allowed soo many different options and dislike that they auto lose in some circumstances? I really like how you ignored the part where i mentioned getting tanks to be a 'standard' or 'staple unit'. Which is what Predy is namely asking for. I though the map idea was good Edit: People were unfortunate about terran mech in beta because it was overpowered.
I just don't know what to say to this. It has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with gameplay.
Toss and Zerg should also have a lot of viable openings, but we are talking about Terran here.
If you want interesting games you need to have many viable openings and compositions that work throughout the game, but these compositions should not consist of 7 units because that means you won't have dynamic compositions, the magic number feels like 3 or 4 with 1 support unit sprinkled over the top and 1 utility unit such as a dropship.
For example MMM really isn't bio and really isn't MMM. Its actually MMMVGBR. Marine Marauder Medivac Ghost Viking Raven and is the only composition ever used in TvP, unless you consider 1-1-1 which is Marine Marauder Medivac Banshee Raven Tank. What about TvZ, its Marine Marauder Medivac Tank Thor. Makes things extremely confusing, and boring at the same time because the compositions will never be drastically different.
Lets look at viable compositions Terran has between the two games.
Core = You produce these units in numbers more than ~5.
Support = You produce these units in numbers less than ~5.
SC2:
[Core | Support]
TvP
MMMV [Marine Marauder Medivac Viking | Ghost Raven]
1-1-1 [Marine Marauder | Medivac Tank Banshee Raven]
TvZ
Bionic [Marine Medivac Tank | Ghost] (Notice it falls within the magic range and is also the most exciting matchup)
SCBW:
[Core | Support]
TvP
Deep6 / Mame [Marine Medic | Tank] (I count 1-1-1 so I guess I can count this)
Heavy Metal [Tank Goliath Vulture | Vessel]
TvZ
Bionic / Bechanic [Marine Medic Tank | Vessel]
Valkonic [Marine Medic Firebat | Valkyrie]
SKTerran [Marine Medic Firebat | Vessel]
HeavyMetal [Tank Goliath Vulture | Vessel]
Marine Goliath [Obvious]
Tank Science-Vessel [Obvious]
5 Rax Bionic into HeavyMetal (The difference is once the switch occurs theres a completely different composition of units its never a mishmash of 7 different units)
2 port Wraith [Wraiths Marine Medic | Firebat] (Edit: Omg how could I forget this?)
There's one reason why most people prefer watching TvZ over TvP in both matchups as well.
If having too many viable compositions is imbalanced then why is the Kespa rank full of zergs? We should never restrict the amount of viable compositions because we know it has nothing to do with balance, but it does make the game a lot more interesting. SC2 suffers from having too many gimmicky single purpose units, this means that you need 7 different units when it comes to a macro game. Instead you should have units that specifically complement other units in the same "group", and have high utility.
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Well, I agree completely about the Siege Tank. It just got completely fucked, it's just a shadow of its former self being more expensive, taking up more supply, and doing less damage. Yes, it does have good A.I to complement it, but its kinda dumb how every unit protoss has counters it. I think this is more due to the way SC2 was designed though, often units just have hard counters to them, tanks just happen to be countered by....everything protoss has pretty much.
I don't know how they would fix the tank though, a damage buff would be nice but then they might become too strong vs zerg, and in TvT we would see the resurgence of tank/viking wars since bio will become obsolete again. I hope they try to mess around with it in HotS to fix the damn thing.
TvP is torture for me though. It's way too set in stone in what can work, makes me cringe everytime I run into a protoss on ladder ~_~
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 07:26 ZenithM wrote:
I get that you (PredY) aren't exactly a nobody (I saw you play at Dreamhack I believe, that's all great) but your post is a bit whiny for a good player and a blue poster imho. So, stop me if I'm wrong, but as I understand, you don't like TvP, because you can't make tanks, and you must produce biological units, marauder especially, which you don't like, and you don't like warp gate, colossus, void rays either. You find that Broodwar was a much more interesting game because of tanks and the positional play they promote. Fine.
Broodwar was indeed very interesting, but it was also a completely different game, you can't just buff tanks to 60 damage and have again the BW experience in SC2 (we can all agree that with that kind of buff you can indeed make terran more "interesting", as in "having a full 64 terran roster GSL Code A and Code S" and such: tanks would rape TvZ, and you just have to 111 the other race to oblivion). If you want strong mech play vs Protoss, you would likely have to change protoss, and zerg indirectly. Furthermore, finding tanks more interesting than bio is your own opinion, not everyone shares it, don't make it some kind of universal truth.
With that out of the window, it's still true than a Terran tech path is not very viable against Protoss atm. Oh! The horror! Terran cannot just decide to build whatever they feel like and still win? Can I go stargate void rays + carriers? Do I whine about stargate not being viable against terran? About it not being viable in virtually any matchup?
I seriously hope that your post was not a balance whine (I highly doubt it but still) disguised as a game design/Broodwar nostalgia rant. If you lose a lot vs Protoss atm, it's not because Protoss is too strong and Terran badly designed. But it might be because you just "watch" the fights, as you said.
have you ever seen whitera sky play vs zerg? 
but you're right that i don't like marauders but like tanks more. it's probably a nostalgia rant as you say. still, i love starcraft so much i really want sc2 to succed. i just feel if tanks were better in tvp it would create more interesting games for the players and the spectators. i really hoped that these ball vs ball fights would last only in the beta but since that, tvp hasnt changed almost at all from the terran point of view, the only thing (well besides 111allin) was adding ghosts as a standart unit.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 13:21 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 06:16 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:55 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 05:38 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote:
Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered?
Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do.
Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts.
Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here.
Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks.
So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. yeahhh, no. + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote:
Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of:
Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters.
If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech.
Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game.
Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. so i assume you've never played broodwar nor watched it which means you shouldn't really talk about something you don't understand. from your tone it's obvious you'd like to flame so i'm not sure what to do now. i can probably tell you what i mean by the OP but you'll probably won't care anyway. in starcraft all races are different yet you talk about every race using their tier 1 units with some tech support and caster support which is fine. as someone already stated, factory tech is a more completed tech than robo tech which act as a support to main ground gateway force. it was the same in BW, where there were reaver, HT and arbiters. How do you explain that in sc2 in tvt pure mech is viable in tvt and tvz but not in tvp. My point was that TvP in sc2 is very limited unlike the other 2 matchups and very stale, not fun to play. I tried to explain why mech (tanks) make the game exciting, i don't know what you didnt understand. I stated it's my personal oppinion which means you don't have to agree with me. Thanks for responding. Im not trying to be a flamer or anything like that. The 2nd half page post I made was thought out imo, trying to showcase how i saw the game. Believe me i wouldn't waste 200 words on a thread for no reason other than to make you mad, its not worth my time. Again, all it feels like is that im being bashed for showing the obvious 'relationships' between the races and how the game 'plays out'. Why does the argument have to be 'factory tech is more complete so it should work'. Or 'it works in TvT' but nothing else. It doesn't work in all mu's. It works for certain unit comps, and Zerg and Terran unit comps allow the full mech to work. Protoss unit comps do not (according to you and apparently every terran, which i disagree on). Each race is designed differently. But still falls to the same thing i stated then. What 'n0ise' posted was completely accurate. What i want is a discussion that doesn't revolve around Broodwar or Race vs Race. I wish you would look at unit comp instead and base it off of that. Because of the way Terran and Zerg play out through the game, it leaves it possibly to play almost purely mech against them. To be honest though nobody really plays full mech, most people do a hybrid bio-mech. Even pure late game mech included ghosts. Protoss isn't like that though. The current unit comps that Protoss favors currently seem to decimate pure mech. Thats just how the game is. Like in your original post i did play beta, and remember the 60 dmg. And it needed nerfed. It didn't break tvz. It didn't break tvp. It didn't break tvz. The 60 dmg was just too much at the time, partiall because of the maps. Do you remember playing TvP on Steppes? As a toss it was ridiculous to fight turtle terrans on some maps. This may be able to be changed back now. Hell do it for all i care to see if tanks become more viable. Id rather have a discusion in how to make changes to Terran to make it work vs Protoss then argue about why it worked in Broodwar and why it doesn't work now. Edit: It just feels to me like you think its fine if Terran has all these different options and tech choices and you dont mind ignoring that the other races aren't like this. I feel like you want Terran to be Broodwar Terran. Well, i hate having to make a robo every single game. You think blizzard cares? yes i know blizzard doesn't care. but as you see in this thread a lot of players tend to agree with me and that means blizzard should care. but they wont i dont have false hopes. i agree that maps like steppes of war forced blizzard into balancing the game in the certain way. then taldarim altar popped out and we had a whole new set of problems. blizzard made a mistake balancing the game around maps like desert oasis and steppes of war. but it's too late to cry over that. i have a very objective look into the matchup dont worry. i can see your arguments being very valid. both races make a lot of low tier units and then add spellcasters and other support units. looks good on the paper right? i understand new people coming in that has no experience with BW and they like it. they like to run around with bio and dropping all over the place etc. it's just the way i (and many others in this thread) see it it just doesn't feel like anything we used to play like for years and years in broodwar. is that a wrong thing? it might be. as i said, on maps likes shakuras plateau it works to go biomech or mech because of the map structure. and that's ok because you can make the decision how you want to play. but on maps like taldarim? hell theres no way to outplay protoss who knows what to do (that comes down to the game and unit mechanics i mentioned like warpgates, mobility etc.). that's the main issue i was trying to make. it's just that tanks were adjusted not to be OP in TvZ and on maps like steppes of war, which makes me really sad as i strongly believe that was a bad move. Thanks for responding!! Im not saying i completely disagree with you in getting the units out there. Its just from us new people, and from us people playing the other races, you seem to ask for something we dont have and expect it as standard. Or so it feels like. Thats why alot of toss are responding the way they are in this thread, and i apologize for it. They are just responding to how they see it laid out in front of them. By balance (that may or may not be liked) the game was made very linear. I think it kinda come's down to a few things. Tanks are seen as the 'terran' unit. I think the last TL poll showed when people thought of the terran they thought of the tank. So naturally there's are large fanbase for it. Im sorry but i can't agree that straight factory/pure mech play needs to be viable in all matchups, when the other races are snowballed in to certain bo's early game to be considered 'safe'. I do agree though that a Bio-Mech should be able to be played in any MU considering map balance. From the posts that I can see here, it really seems like the best solution to make people happy would be to increase maps that allow for tanks to be used, even if its just 2-3. That way different styles of play would be used per different kind of maps. I dont see the 60 dmg coming back. I know you mention it being overpowered in tvz, but it was just as bad for tvp and even tvt from my experiences because of current t1 unit health. Critical masses (8+) just made the game completely stalemate just because everybody is 'scared' to do anything for fear of 50+ pop dieing in 2 seconds. Games were won by having to catch your opponent unsieged. I dont know how that was ever considered fun. Sitting around a map mined out with max army waiting for 'that one chance' to catch him off guard. So why dont we ask some Map of the Month makers to make some 'clover' like maps. That maybe allow for your set of expansions to be somewhat linear, to make it more viable? Edit: Well. Im glad Predy replied and was pretty manner. For those of you terrans recently joining the conversation who have started to shift it to 'terran unwinnable in late game'. Please lets not do that if possible. Jinro's post for example, is nothing but a complete whine that Protoss is > Terran. None of that contributes to a discussion about tanks being used. Edit 2: Predy. What is your stance on Antiga shipyard? You mention Shakuras as being mech friendly. Would not Antiga play at least till 4 bases similar to shakuras.
i feel we're starting to understand each other
i don't think pure mech is viable at all in TvP (due to no spider mines and thors not too good vs air) because protoss unit counters tank thors hellions just too well and that's ok. i think going bio first and then transitioning into more mech/air play is just what would add more variety to that matchup. but as i mentioned, besides on some maps it almost doesn't work.
so why does it work on shakuras? the thing is, when protoss players see you make tanks (and they will because you cant deny his obersvers all game) the best counter to them is to make blink + collo and then walk around terran bases (especially when terran has 3bases, on current maps your bases are spread too thin) and harass everything they can. since mostly you make marines and save gas for tanks or vikings, you need to move your tanks and that takes a lot of time. on shakuras though, your 3base is perfectly safe from any blink stalker harassment (well your main is a bit exposed from one side but that's managable). then you can proceed to take half the map when you have enough units and that favors the terran since you can siege your tanks at the xelnagas and kill 2 protoss bases and use the terrain to your advantage. but the main point is, you have your 3base relatively fast and safe which is what you want if you want to go past 2base timing push with your tanks.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 17:00 Enki wrote:
Well, I agree completely about the Siege Tank. It just got completely fucked, it's just a shadow of its former self being more expensive, taking up more supply, and doing less damage. Yes, it does have good A.I to complement it, but its kinda dumb how every unit protoss has counters it. I think this is more due to the way SC2 was designed though, often units just have hard counters to them, tanks just happen to be countered by....everything protoss has pretty much.
I don't know how they would fix the tank though, a damage buff would be nice but then they might become too strong vs zerg, and in TvT we would see the resurgence of tank/viking wars since bio will become obsolete again. I hope they try to mess around with it in HotS to fix the damn thing.
TvP is torture for me though. It's way too set in stone in what can work, makes me cringe everytime I run into a protoss on ladder ~_~
well that was one of points i was making in the OP. it's the "hard counter" philosophy blizzard took up when making this game. prime example is immortal vs tanks. do you know banelings are supposed to counter marines? well they do, but if marines are microed well, blings became cost inneficient and it's good for the terran. i wish there was more stuff like this in this game. and i came back to my point, not having vikings vs collo = dead. its more of an unit composition game.
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