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On October 02 2011 20:52 Whalecore wrote:
Wouldn't a tank buff make 1/2-base marine/tank pushes extremely strong? Recent GSTL I saw marineking destroy a protoss with a marine/tank/medivac timing, and it was from 2 base.
yeah, but don't talk about mech units being used against Protoss in this thread... it destroys the threads purpose!
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hm someone mentioned adding bonus damage to massive, which would outside of TvP affected only ultras (and thors, that sometimes can be annoying because you use thors to break siege lines), with which you dont want to attack sieged tanks anyway but would rather use broodlords for them to unsiege first (still tanks with +3 might be too good vs ultras, althought marauders are bigger threat, until fungaled). in TvP it would really help out vs early collosi (or archon) which you always target fire with tanks. if they die faster then more marines will live and will help clean the rest (zealot stalkers sentry)
i say it would be worth a shot
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 02 2011 10:58 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me! I agree that TvP is very micro-intensive, but I feel that PredY is right in the fact that it is also a very one-dimensional match-up. You rarely see anything more than MMM and then if the P has Colossi and you don't have Vikings, you lose, and if the P has High Templar and you don't have Ghosts, you lose. It's just not a horribly fun match-up to play, because other than cheeses and timing attacks, there is very little differences in the play styles. That being said, builds like what we saw Byun do in Code A (easily one of the coolest builds I've ever seen) gives me hope that eventually we'll see an increase in mech usage. Personally, I feel that mech is fun to play in TvP, but it's just not nearly as good as bio. I think it would be cooler if in HotS they nerfed bio, but made mech a lot stronger.
Mech is so bad outside of specific timings, on almost all maps.
It just isnt able to do anything at all late game - if you want to kill an expansion that has 1 pylon at it you need to bring your entire army because of warpin, if protoss gets 1 warp prism up in your base........ you will never defend.
You cant stop addon sniping, your army will not trade nearly effectively enough vs his to make up for his instant 50 supply re-supply vs your super slow pace..... You are just not able to control the map at all, so unless you are doing a 2 base timing its pretty hopeless.
(@Byuns build)
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Sweden33719 Posts
Edit: Well. Im glad Predy replied and was pretty manner. For those of you terrans recently joining the conversation who have started to shift it to 'terran unwinnable in late game'. Please lets not do that if possible. Jinro's post for example, is nothing but a complete whine that Protoss is > Terran. None of that contributes to a discussion about tanks being used.
No it isnt, what the fuck?
Guy 1 says if both players played perfect terran should never lose, I disagree I think its the opposite, I just dont think Protoss can play perfect without maphacking.
Give protoss maphack and I think T would never beat P, pretty much. Thats fine tho, because P doesnt actually have maphack.....
Also, for people complaining about how their race doesnt have the option of doing anything but playing the same thing every game either...... Well, how about you make a thread about that as well? Its not like thats a good thing and all us terrans want to keep it that way --
If only the colossus was a reaver....
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warpgate is just stupid and broken mechanics which shouldnt be in rts at the first place, it dumbed down evey P MU and is partialy responsible for the state of toss nowadays
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 02 2011 21:45 humbre wrote:
warpgate is just stupid and broken mechanics which shouldnt be in rts at the first place, it dumbed down evey P MU and is partialy responsible for the state of toss nowadays
I think its a really cool mechanic tho, I just dont know if it should be so universally available.
If it was only available in conjunction with a mothership or warp prism, it would be better I think BUT this would require an AMAZING rework of every Protoss matchup, because the game is not broken right now, just a little limited.
If mech could somehow prevent warp-ins in areas that would do a lot for its ability to function in longer games and on maps where not everything is clustered tightly together... Still would need some other changes to occur, but that is one of the bigger problems - inability to handle warpins at your expansions or main, as well as the inability to do anything to a far away protoss expansion without committing your entire army.
Maybe another raven spell..? Like a 30 second signal jammer or something with X radius.
I think the raven is one of the most important units for making TvT mech work, if it could somehow be made to have a similar impact on mech in TvP, I think we could have something viable. As it stands it doesnt add much unless the protoss is forced to go stalker heavy, and its very vulnerable to being sniped by feedback or phoenix, and vs archon/zealot/immortal it literally does nothing.
Some other things that are pretty minor but I would still like to see, is for the immortal shot to not be instant - being able to dropship micro tanks vs immortals in super small scale situations is desireable IMO. As it is, you can kinda do it by letting him shoot something else, dropping, picking back up.... but that means there has to be something else to shoot at, immortals tend to do a good job of killing things unfortunately.
Id also like to see tanks be able to move-shoot kite or semi-kite immortals, as it is they do a full turn around everytime you stop to shoot if moving backwards, which makes micro pretty pointless vs immortals. Id like to see some way of bringing back the move, hold, move, hold micro of dragoons and siege tanks from SC1. Maybe just a faster turning animation.
Like, I think immortals should still be able to catch the tank, just there should be a point to microing it back and shooting, like maybe you get off a couple of extra shots or if you do it perfectly you could back away "forever"... something like that.
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althought i did not play BW on a level that i do sc2 now, coming from a masters Terran, i find TvP to be my weakest matchup because i'm forced to play a style that is not my style. by this i mean in tvt, and tvz i play mainly mech with siege tanks and i love this style of play, i find the bio play in tvp to be very strong in the early game but once a game gets to a 3 base point. i find it almost impossible to win any game vs a protoss even versus much lower league protoss. i honestly feel that it's just unfair in the late game the amount of micro required by the Terran to just barely survive vs the amount of micro the toss puts in to deal so much damage. late game scenarios i've been toying with other strategies to try and find something other than mmmvg that is viable but i just can't seem to make anything work even mmmvg. i agree with Thorizain that it's one of the most micro intensive matchups for a terran and i'd like to add that you must do damage early if not flat out kill the protoss or your just going to snowball out of control. i'd like to see some strong late game units that terrans can utilize perhaps something needs to change with the thor? not sure
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I don't mind warp-gate, honestly its a nice extension to recall.
Except Recall required Cyber -> Adun -> Templar Achives -> Stargate -> Arbiter Tribunal -> 150/150 research -> 350/100 cost Arbiter
What does Warpgate require? A gateway, a Cybercore, a 50/50 cost research, oh but there's a catch, you need a pylon.
What sucks is that the research takes so long, but is so crucial to Toss, that it removes any strategy related to Cybercore upgrades.
Instead they should just relegate it to the highest tier structure, make the research more expensive, and then buff all the gateway units so you don't have ridiculous Robo units to compensate and then Terran and Zerg won't have ridiculous timing attacks that they can use against Protoss.
The only time Warpgate is really necessary is when Terran has an unstoppable 2/1 mech deathball that you can't engage head on, and Terran can just drop 6 mini-nukes and a map-crossing arclite cannon at every base making it impossible to get any ROI on your expansions.
In BW Toss vs Terran late-game is almost impossible, unless you gain a massive advantage in the beginning by having 3 times as many bases and not losing any probes and can carpal tunnel pump from 30 gateways because Flash made beating carriers possible even for a 5 year old kid. Honestly my thought process as Terran in TvP is, "As long as i can get 3 bases or he goes carriers I will win". In this situation I can see warp-gate being really useful and making the game more exciting.
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"The catch is you need a pylon." Having arbiter recall available at the cybernetics core for 50/50 and having each arbiter be a 100 mineral building sounds like a great deal to me  lol.
More on topic...yeah, they should make it so the tank is usable in tvp like it was in beta. I remember epic macro games when my tanks actually killed stuff, instead of got runover by 1A like tonka toys.
You can never really pure mech anyways. You have to build ghosts with mech, and i'm pretty sure ghost nuke harrass is the key to hitting those faraway expos jinro was talking about without having to commit your entire army (as you cannot do that anyways).
The problem is still though that basically every protoss unit is designed to counter the siege tank, every upgrade is, and that getting double armories costs too much gas right now. I don't understand why they don't cost 150/50 instead of 100 gas. You shouldn't be punished for wanting to take a mech tech route and needing to upgrade your units. ebays/forges/evo chambers are minerals and upgrade every ground unit for their race along those tech paths.
If you want to go mech, instead of bio, your upgrade centers take a ridiculous amount of gas...which makes mech even more difficult to use.
Even then, copy paste everything jinro said, 1 warp prism getting through, 1 blink stalker backstab, 1 pylon basically anywhere on the map where you are planning to attack...and your army is gonna get melted away because protoss can take faraway bases and instantly reinforce.
Too many people arguing over "what takes more micro" in this thread. predy, and many, many other Terran players just want the tank to be useable in TvP instead of a paper weight.
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The problem with warp gate should be obvious to anyone. Compare the Warp Gate and the Gateway. The warp gate has a shorter cooldown than the gateway has build time, and in addition allows the protoss to warp in their units anywhere.
The correct way to balance warp gate would be to have the warp gate cooldown be longer than the time needed by a gateway to construct the same unit. However, you may warp in that unit anywhere. This means going for the fast warp gate can be used offensively, however if you continue to aggress ineffectively the defending protoss building out of gateways will slowly build a bigger army. Strategy games are about tradeoffs, and warp gate isn't one. Warp gates are strictly dominant over gateways.
Their pitiful attempt to balance this strict dominance was to just give it a MASSIVE build time, which just hurts my brain as to what they could possibly be thinking.
The total lack of positional play making the game blob warz is a very astute comment. Blizzard has put in so many mechanics to discourage positional play because they think it is "static" and "boring." They understand nothing.
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On October 03 2011 03:39 ledarsi wrote:
The problem with warp gate should be obvious to anyone. Compare the Warp Gate and the Gateway. The warp gate has a shorter cooldown than the gateway has build time, and in addition allows the protoss to warp in their units anywhere.
The correct way to balance warp gate would be to have the warp gate cooldown be longer than the time needed by a gateway to construct the same unit. However, you may warp in that unit anywhere. This means going for the fast warp gate can be used offensively, however if you continue to aggress ineffectively the defending protoss building out of gateways will slowly build a bigger army. Strategy games are about tradeoffs, and warp gate isn't one. Warp gates are strictly dominant over gateways.
Their pitiful attempt to balance this strict dominance was to just give it a MASSIVE build time, which just hurts my brain as to what they could possibly be thinking.
The total lack of positional play making the game blob warz is a very astute comment. Blizzard has put in so many mechanics to discourage positional play because they think it is "static" and "boring." They understand nothing.
hmm, this actually is very intersting and i think you could be on to something with this. it really got me thinking, and if warpgate had a longer cooldown it would make for some interesting play, esp. in pvp. but could give protoss the defenders advantage they're lacking, as well as fix some warpgate mechanics
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On October 03 2011 03:39 ledarsi wrote:
The problem with warp gate should be obvious to anyone. Compare the Warp Gate and the Gateway. The warp gate has a shorter cooldown than the gateway has build time, and in addition allows the protoss to warp in their units anywhere.
The correct way to balance warp gate would be to have the warp gate cooldown be longer than the time needed by a gateway to construct the same unit. However, you may warp in that unit anywhere. This means going for the fast warp gate can be used offensively, however if you continue to aggress ineffectively the defending protoss building out of gateways will slowly build a bigger army. Strategy games are about tradeoffs, and warp gate isn't one. Warp gates are strictly dominant over gateways.
Their pitiful attempt to balance this strict dominance was to just give it a MASSIVE build time, which just hurts my brain as to what they could possibly be thinking.
The total lack of positional play making the game blob warz is a very astute comment. Blizzard has put in so many mechanics to discourage positional play because they think it is "static" and "boring." They understand nothing.
This could be interesting, but in that case it would be cool for the protoss units to actually do damage, for instance the stalker, because we will end up with a lot less units.
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Perhaps make the gateway build time the equal of the warp gate's current cooldown, so if you just stick with gateways you have exactly the same number of units you do now with warp gate?
And make the warp gate require the current gateway's unit build time in cooldown, possibly add 5 seconds?
Basically, swap the build times between warp gate and gateways.
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there's been some threads on the warpgate mechanic recently so i didn't really want to talk too much about it, but it's definately an issue. but for that we're gonna have to wait for HoTS and see what happens. but as you said i'd love if warpgates weren't the ideal option, rather have gateways as the main production facility + a few warpgates to warpin DTs to harass or HTs to faraway expo so you can defend. maybe allow as many warpgates as you have nexi? obviously rebalancing gateway units would be necessary t_t
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So many good players posting here, I feel like I should be quiet while the grown-ups are talking ; ).
But, I don't think it's as simple as "nerf bio, buff mech." I think most Terran players (and Blizzard) would prefer that both are pretty good. (Even in Brood War, there are a few brave souls who try to do bio TvP, but as Predy said it works mostly as a 'surprise' all-in.)
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On October 03 2011 04:23 ComTrav wrote:
So many good players posting here, I feel like I should be quiet while the grown-ups are talking ; ).
But, I don't think it's as simple as "nerf bio, buff mech." I think most Terran players (and Blizzard) would prefer that both are pretty good. (Even in Brood War, there are a few brave souls who try to do bio TvP, but as Predy said it works mostly as a 'surprise' all-in.)
There are brave souls who do mech TvP in SC2 as well. That doesnt change that bio TvP sucks in BW and mech TvP sucks in SC2.
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I don't think it's possible for the tank to be useable in TvP without a MASSIVE rework of 2 or all races I believe. Immortal/Chargelots/Collo/Storm all counter the tank pretty effectively + Guardian shield...
I wish it would work as bio is boring. Maybe more damage but less splash?
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United States7483 Posts
On October 03 2011 04:14 PredY wrote:
there's been some threads on the warpgate mechanic recently so i didn't really want to talk too much about it, but it's definately an issue. but for that we're gonna have to wait for HoTS and see what happens. but as you said i'd love if warpgates weren't the ideal option, rather have gateways as the main production facility + a few warpgates to warpin DTs to harass or HTs to faraway expo so you can defend. maybe allow as many warpgates as you have nexi? obviously rebalancing gateway units would be necessary t_t
Easy solution: rebalance gateways, and put warpgate tech on the Templar Archives, to make it end-game tech that's available only if you go down that route, or something similar. Would probably have to nerf ghosts though, at least a little. *muses*
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OP put into words why I hate watching and playing vs protoss
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DB said as recently as August that Terran was designed too well. So whether or not Terran is not the master race is out of the question. None of those conspiracy theories are required, Gindo, when Blizzard themselves have said Terran is incredibly designed. Also Protoss being buffed in all regards from BW? LOL!!! Gateway units are shit now because of the warp gate mechanic (imagine decent Zealots/Stalkers off a 4gate... insta-win every game), and Archons are actually worse now fyi.
Dustin Browder says:
DB: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If anything, Browder's comment kills the point of the OP. I can't see the point of it besides ladder rage, when the fact of the matter is that Protoss is the worst race at pro play, and Browder states the exact opposite of the OP.
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EPT
