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Hey,
in this thread i'd like to share my views on the terran matchups, especially Terran vs Protoss. Everything i will be talking about is just my oppinion and i'm open to discussion.
(Excuse me if the english is not perfect)
1 Introduction, StarCraft 2 philosophy?
First off, i'd like to mention that i'm not gonna talk about balance. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the state of Terran, especially TvP matchup game-design and gameplay wise.
I believe blizzards intended to make sc2 a fast paced game, which means they wanted to make low tier units useful, Marine+Marauder being the prime example of that. It means that there's rarely a passage in the game where nothing is happening (on the pro level). But does this hurt the game? Are low tier units too strong?
Also it seems blizzard wants to make as many units viable as possible in all matchups so they can have variety in the gameplay. In BW, that was not the case, as marines were almost useless in both TvT and TvP besides couple timing attacks (f.e. Deep6). I believe sc2 TvP has the similar issue, but i'll get to that later.
2 Terran in SC2
This thread is a result of my frustration with TvP. I used to play BroodWar where Terran was often the one who would defend and expand with a lot of harassment (TvP, TvT), or would go for timing attacks to gain the upper hand (TvZ). Terran was strong in both midgame and lategame thanks to wide range of units. I believe the same cannot be said about terran in SC2. In my oppinion, terran in sc2 is the strongest in early and midgame due to strong low tier units (marines+marauders) and also thanks to MULEs, which allow you to run low on SCVs and focus on making more units. In result, terran allins are very powerful.
3 Terran matchups and variety
3.1 TvT and TvZ
Current TvT and TvZ looks good to me. In both matchups there's a wide range of strategies that are viable. Bio+mech and Pure mech being the most popular. Both macro games and 2base timing attacks can be seen. In TvT there's a lot of tank positioning, controling ground and eventually switching to powerful air units (+ nukes). In TvZ, using marines early on to pressure zerg, then switching to either mech or marine tank compositions, with ghosts (and quite possibly ravens) as the ultimate tech vs T3
zerg units. Again, a lot of tanks positioning go gain ground and using the map to your advantage as much as possible. TvZ is also very micro intensive, as not paying an attention for a second can cause all your marines to blow up to couple of banelings.
From spectator point of view, both TvT and TvZ are quite exciting i think, especially TvZ, because TvT can be a bit dull sometimes (mech vs mech).
I'd consider TvZ the closest to BW TvZ as it's very micro intensive, requires a lot of multitasking and there are strong timing attacks and precise scouting is required. Good control (micro marines and target firing with tanks) can win you games which is for me one of the most important factors in the game. TvT, especially mech vs mech is very close to BW TvT as well.
PS. i make these comparisons because i used to play BW for years and because it was such a great game and i knew i can always improve my timing, my transitioning and my control (micro) it drove me on to practice more and more.
3.2 TvP
Now to the main issue i have with terran in SC2. If we consider korean pros (GSL), unless going for 1-1-1, we see MMM viking ghost for 95% games (a very nice exception being Byun vs OZ from Code A, VOD is free and can be found here). Even then though, it's only a 2base timing attack and cannot be considered as standart TvP build.
I talked about TvZ and TvT. Do you know what those matchups have in common? Tanks. Tanks made BW so awesome. Tanks make TvZ and TvT in SC2 very fun to play/watch. You can control ground, abuse the terrain, siege. They take a lot of skill to play with but the reward is high, but not in TvP. It's quite sad but almost every protoss unit counters them. Do you remember when tanks did 60 damage? Good times. They were actually quite useful back then. Right now, i wanna cry every time i have 20 of them slaughtered in 10 seconds.
I must admit, on some maps, tanks are quite viable. For example, on Shakuras, it's possible to play marine tank with support (ghost/banshee) - an example is a game from Shoutcraft 3 DDE vs Socke (VOD). Unfortunately, on most maps it's suicidide to go anything but bio (f.e. Taldarim). It works well on Shakuras because there's not much room to blink harass and 3base is quite safe, then split map situation favors terran.
So what is the reason TvP is all bio? Marauders and warpgates. It's unfortunate that TvP got screwed because tanks were "too strong" in TvZ and were nerfed. Marauders are much more cost effective vs protoss. Hell i hate them, marauders. Such a boring unit. Even more than collosus. You make marine marauder then switch to marine marauder and in late game transition into marine marauder, errrr wait a minute...there's just no option like in other matchups.Warpgates is in my oppinion the worst game mechanic they could put into the game, but that has been discussed to death. I really DO HOPE they will change it in HoTS, but i don't expect so.
Another issue i have with TvP is there's minimum micro in fights, all you do is make concave before the fight them stim and run in. Cast some emps. Then you watch if you have enough or not. Theres no micro against banelings or infestors like in TvZ. Micro will never save your ass like in TvZ. Good position will never save your ass like in TvT, because you have no tanks, and warpgates are pretty good eh! Nothings angers me more than cutting off protoss expo from his main army and have 20 zealots warped in to my back, same with drops.
How about you having wrong unit composition? He has collosus and you have no vikings? You lose. He has storms and you have no EMPs? You lose. Remember when in BW you had no tanks but you could still kill lurkers with godly micro? Or when you have too many vultures against a lot of dragoons but not enough tanks, you would go in and surround with mines and then 10 goons turned to blue goo? I want THAT!
4 Conclusion
Solution? I don't thing there's any at the moment. Wait for HoTS for a new unit that will complement tanks just like vultures with mines? I don't hold my hopes high. Besides map specific strategies i don't see any solution at the moment, unless some things are adjusted (tanks, warpgate mechanic). Or just korean terrans don't feel like developing any biomech/mech strategies that wouldn't be timing pushes? Btw, i'm aware of people like Goody playing mech in TvP, and i don't know his winrate not any other terran's. But unless we see a terran winnig GSL/MLG/DH with mech in TvP i'd like to focus on koreans as they are clearly the top players currently.
The thing with TvP is that it doesn't feel terran-ish at all, if i wanted to make a lot of T1 units i'd play zerg! I really hate getting slaughtered by high tech protoss lategame army with HTs and Collosus, while i battle them with "awesome" marauders. As i said, TvP is really frustrating for me, making me not wanting to play the game at all, therefore there might be some over-the-top comparisons, hope you understand what i meant and give some feedback.
Thanks for reading!
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What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio death ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
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Great post and i agree 100% with you.
In TvP the only micro is EMP and maybe storm dodging, but after that, as you said, is just watching if all you have is enough fir the big fight. And is also terrible to see just the same composition every single game.
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I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark.
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i agree on everything. i think there definately needs to be a better tank support unit added or a current unit changed to fit the role better. either that or bring back 60 damage to all armor types and remove smart firing i think id settle for that ^^
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On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:
I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark.
In BW, didn't quite a few TvZ's revolve around a 2base tank marine medic push designed to attempt to kill the zerg before he got hive?
correct me if i'm wrong..
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Sweden164 Posts
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
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I agree with everything you say PredY. TvP is not good at all. I wonder how the matchup would look like in SC2 if there was no warpgates. What do you guys think?
I've been playing BW only the whole week and going mech and gaining mapcontrol and cover ground with tanks and mines is so beautiful <3.
Oh yeah the micro part I have to agree with Thorzain tho. Feels like you as a Terran have to do so much much more in the battles and you have to macro at the same too since you can't warpin 20 units when you lose your army, hehe.
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All the new macro mechanics are really broken.
Warpgates is already discussed here, it fucks up PvP, and makes allins really powerful. MULEs are in the game only so that T can keep up with drones/probes. Larva mechanics are too strong mid/late, but they need to be to survive the bullshit that is early game.
The end result is a bunch of shitty matchups. In TvZ, Z is impossible to catch up to with any lead. Either you hit a 2 (10m) or 3 base (15m) timing, and continuously trade from there, or there's no chance. Look at MVPvsDarkforce, there is no T army that is capable of moving out against late game Z once you miss your timing - you can't match Z macro, you have to trade. This is pretty much the same for PvZ.
TvP, remove marauders and remove colo. Bring back reavers and vultures. They changed the entire dynamic of the matchup by designing mech to only counter low HP units. Used to be that mech wasn't always viable vs Z because of mobility, but not it's not viable against P because they tweaked all mech output for anti-Z. Hellions/tanks are shit at real combat, but good for things they can one shot: lings banes. So unless the entire profile of those 2 units are changed, mech vs P can't come back.
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Agree with Thorzain. You can't just "watch" a TvP battle. But I agree that it would be fun with some new blood in the matchup.
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I personally like my big black men in space suits that wield dual grenade launchers and pwn pretty much every Protoss unit.
If only they could shoot at air units,hmmm
It is theoretically possible too, worked quite well in quake at least.A man can dream, right? hehe
Anyways, TvP and PvT are quite enjoyable for me personally, so I cant sympathize, sorry
Nice read though
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
This, Completely. I frequently have people whine on ladder that there are so many Terrans in Code S, but yet I rarely if ever face a terran on ladder (diamond). This is basically the reason, TVP is very difficult in my own experience unless your micro and multitask are extremely good.
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On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark.
Agree with this and the OP. I guess the best you can say for TvZ is that there are a few variations on your attempt to cripple the zerg before 10-12 minutes, whereas for TvP it's always the same if no one allins.
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Yup, I agree.
Tanks make for interesting batttles of positioning, leap-frogging and macro. They create suspension whereas marauders just ... kite and shoot ... all day? I think a good 90% percent of SC2 players thinks the marauder's an uninspired boring and unterran-like unit.
I'm afraid Blizzard's just focusing on balance though, removing the marauder would put balancing in all MU's back to square 1 (TvZ might be OK).
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On October 01 2011 06:13 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:
I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark.
In BW, didn't quite a few TvZ's revolve around a 2base tank marine medic push designed to attempt to kill the zerg before he got hive? correct me if i'm wrong..
The 2 base Medic marine timing (with or without tanks) was certainly a big part of the mathcup, but there was also the muta phase. Either could determine the outcome, but both players had the burden of defending one timing and putting forth their own timing. Typically, the game wouldn't really be ended by either (unless severe damage occurs). But just like the terrans timing attacks force sunkens, and units, the mutas force turrets and the terran has to stay at home for a bit.
The games would quite often go beyond this point and we'd get a wonderful and robust war of ling/lurker/muta into hive tech (defilers and ultras) vs Marine medic firebat with some tanks and science vessels. Which often led to huge split map battle royals.
In sc2 usually around the time when mutas enter, the game is decided from what I've seen. It just takes a while for the advantage to play out. The terran does his timing push and if he doesn't cripple the zerg at that point, the zergs starts taking bases and gets out of control. We sometimes see amazing drop play that can win the game after this point, but a zerg that defends against drops well becomes overwhelmingly favored if the terran isn't able to have done significant damage by the time the 3rd is up. Once the zergs gets 3 base econ, infestors, and starts down hive tech the terran is dead if he hasn't been able to directly damage zergs economy in a significant way.
Of course non of this is concrete. I realize I'm making a very wide generalization here. But I just don't think the tvz matchup is nearly as robust as it was in BW. In BW it seemed very close at every point in the game, in sc2 it seems terran is favored in the early game and zerg is favored in the late game.
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There's actually quite a few one-sided engagements in TvP due to relative unit imbalance. Stalkers and slow Zealots are outright slaughtered by marauders. HTs and Colossi completely destroy bio. Then we have the units that hard counter high tier units of the other race (HT vs BC/Thor/Banshee, Viking vs Colossi/Voidray/Carrier). If we look at the TvZ matchup, there aren't as many one sided engagements. Marines without tanks can take on ling baneling with at least decent micro, Thors can still be killed quite easily by mutas, etc. As long as these hard counters exist and are relatively hard to micro against, I think we're going to see the same delicate approach to unit comp.
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On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
I know I might seem arrogant quoting a player of your caliber, but I disagree with you to a certain extent.
Yes, there are forms of micro in TvP, like the ones you mentioned in your post, but still I have the feeling that the battle neds in 4-5 second max. And the winner of the battle wins usually by a landslide ( I know even trades may be possible), and then just proceed to roll into the enemy nat. Of course there is a kind of micro in TvP, the problem is that the micro involved ends in 5 seconds in the big engagement, the rest is your army (or the opponent's) evaporating.
And i don't wanna get flamed for having quoted you or having expressed my feelings, I would like having a nice discussion with interesting arguments 
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On October 01 2011 06:00 n0ise wrote:
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
Terran in SC2 is literally Toss in SCBW. Its not Terran at all. But, really the issue isn't so much the warp gate OP its how protoss is designed. Blizzard made SC2 Protoss by examining its fualts in BW and buffing it. At the same time they had to nerf some things to keep it balance.
Immortals, Charge, Blink, Fast 9 range Reavers. Hell even Archons counter mech now. Also if you were around when Dustin was giving his ideas on Terran. He wanted to make Terran bio very viable vs Protoss. As we all now TvP was by far the hardest match up to play. Terran could be building and in 1 fell swope lose to a 1a Goon Zeal push. Thats why we have quick emps and marauders know.
Blizzard made bio the main stay on purpose. And it makes the match up very stale.
I have a sad 50min replay if you want to see. Where I struggle to make mech work, but to no avail T_T.
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On October 01 2011 06:34 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:00 n0ise wrote:
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
Terran in SC2 is literally Toss in SCBW. Its not Terran at all. But, really the issue isn't so much the warp gate OP its how protoss is designed. Blizzard made SC2 Protoss by examining its fualts in BW and buffing it. At the same time they had to nerf some things to keep it balance. Immortals, Charge, Blink, Fast 9 range Reavers. Hell even Archons counter mech now. Also if you were around when Dustin was giving his ideas on Terran. He wanted to make Terran bio very viable vs Protoss. As we all now TvP was by far the hardest match up to play. Terran could be building and in 1 fell swope lose to a 1a Goon Zeal push. Thats why we have quick emps and marauders know. Blizzard made bio the main stay on purpose. And it makes the match up very stale. I have a sad 50min replay if you want to see. Where I struggle to make mech work, but to no avail T_T.
Can we see? :D
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On October 01 2011 06:25 castled wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark. Agree with this and the OP. I guess the best you can say for TvZ is that there are a few variations on your attempt to cripple the zerg before 10-12 minutes, whereas for TvP it's always the same if no one allins.
That Idea about having to crush zerg before the 10 min mark is total b.s. Its a fib told by qqers. Terran can hold their own against Zerg in a long macro game. That is until BL infestor comes out. Then its gg. But thats around the 25 min mark.
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EPT
