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reading this thread feels like you guys somehow forgot that tvp is the most broken matchup in the game in favor of terran.
how about you slow down a little.
the point op was trying to make is that he doesn't like bio and thinks mech is cooler.
guess what, i prefer bio. and lots of people do as well. i think bio is way cooler to watch than boring tank sieging bullshit.
it needs adjustments on both sides at certain points in the game sure but why the HELL would you want to scratch bio altogether and watch people siege tanks and go afk instead of sick micro maneuvers and gosu multitasking everywhere? WHY?
also LOL at anyone thinking mech is 'not viable' when there is goody who literally does nothing except what i described above and wins.
you might think people would have enough of all that OH HE SIEGED HIS TANKS I GUESS WE AREN'T GOING TO SEE ANYTHING IN THE NEXT 30 MINUTES watching tvt all day erry day in gsl.
User was banned for this post.
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On October 01 2011 06:45 willsterben wrote:
reading this thread feels like you guys somehow forgot that tvp is the most broken matchup in the game in favor of terran.
how about you slow down a little.
the point op was trying to make is that he doesn't like bio and thinks mech is cooler.
guess what, i prefer bio. and lots of people do as well. i think bio is way cooler to watch than boring tank sieging bullshit.
it needs adjustments on both sides at certain points in the game sure but why the HELL would you want to scratch bio altogether and watch people siege tanks and go afk instead of sick micro maneuvers and gosu multitasking everywhere? WHY?
also LOL at anyone thinking mech is 'not viable' when there is goody who literally does nothing except what i described above and wins.
you might think people would have enough of all that OH HE SIEGED HIS TANKS I GUESS WE AREN'T GOING TO SEE ANYTHING IN THE NEXT 30 MINUTES watching tvt all day erry day in gsl.
Nice attitude man. You have clearly seen alot of mech play in Brood War and why mech is awesome.
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tvp is a major concern late game for me as well. something not mentioned here is how fast P can catch up to 3-0-3 upgrades against T mid/late game. also, the food mechanic favors Protoss as zealots,stalker,archon has higher HP/food ratio than marine, marauder, ghost.
another thing worth tweaking would be the EMP spell. Change the spell to reflect BW, that is it drains all energy and shields. this would make ghosts more viable against archons as you need to hit 3 emps on each archon to deal
maxiumun damage. another thing would be to reduce the food requirement for ghosts to 1 food instead of 2.
I would also like to see the tank's food reduced to 2. scv mining time+depot costs are high mid game for terrans who want to mech.
any thoughts?
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Fairly objective post (I play T too). One thing I think you didn't consider, especially in Part 1, is that Blizz wanted to make the game different enough from BW that there was a reason to play it, besides new graphics. IMO, the real shame is the marauder is basically a glorified marine, and it has been untouched, while interesting units e.g. reapers and tanks were nerfed.
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To be honest, it's mainly because of protoss design. Terran ain't really the problem. ( if we're talking about design and not balance )
Warpgate technologie and Colossus both force your opponent into certains thing that make a XvP pretty straight forward " Do that or lose "
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On October 01 2011 06:49 TheSurgeonTV wrote:
tvp is a major concern late game for me as well. something not mentioned here is how fast P can catch up to 3-0-3 upgrades against T mid/late game. also, the food mechanic favors Protoss as zealots,stalker,archon has higher HP/food ratio than marine, marauder, ghost.
another thing worth tweaking would be the EMP spell. Change the spell to reflect BW, that is it drains all energy and shields. this would make ghosts more viable against archons as you need to hit 3 emps on each archon to deal
maxiumun damage. another thing would be to reduce the food requirement for ghosts to 1 food instead of 2.
I would also like to see the tank's food reduced to 2. scv mining time+depot costs are high mid game for terrans who want to mech.
any thoughts?
I think that the EMP change would be too much. I do think the matchup is approaching balanced, hence I tend to worry about balance changes, esp. favoring T, but I do agree with OP that the MU is stale. Not many viable strats. Or the viable ones are boring.
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On October 01 2011 06:54 Noocta wrote:
To be honest, it's mainly because of protoss design. Terran ain't really the problem. ( if we're talking about design and not balance )
Warpgate technologie and Colossus both force your opponent into certains thing that make a XvP pretty straight forward " Do that or lose "
I understand your point about colo., but can you explain what you mean about WG?
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Nice read through your post but what I think is:
Isnt Goody a perfekt example that you are wrong?He is playing in almost every circumstance mech. TvP, TVT,and TVZ.
I am not coming from Brood War nor SC1 but I think tanks are really really boring to watch. I really hate every games tanks are in. Especially terran vs terran.
There is no fun in watching the whole game two tank armys are standing next to each waiting for the one making a wrong move. Its probably intense for the players, but it is extremely boring to watch.
And whats with 1-1-1 . Yes you see it rarely but why do you bother others gameplay?You could play 1-1-1 have your tanks and still crush Protoss, especially in ladder, nearly every time with a proper execution.
To the micro part:
Yes that are probably just 4-5 seconds of really really intense action, but you have to do so many things in that matchup in a battle like Thorzain mentioned. You got the same result in a TvZ. With banelings, infestors etc. And in a TvT alot of fights are not even one second, due to a missclick losing alot of units.
I have just seen one exciting TvT in about 50, because of tanks. I mostly watch Sc2 and dont play it very often, but atleast I am diamond and I am ok with this..
My cents
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On October 01 2011 06:56 homeless_guy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:54 Noocta wrote:
To be honest, it's mainly because of protoss design. Terran ain't really the problem. ( if we're talking about design and not balance )
Warpgate technologie and Colossus both force your opponent into certains thing that make a XvP pretty straight forward " Do that or lose " I understand your point about colo., but can you explain what you mean about WG?
Warpgate make protoss way to mobile to fight against with anything but bio. Protoss got a lot of tools that help them against immobile force ( blink, warp prism, warp mechanic )
And the nature of warpgate made blizzard nerf gateway unit power.
Dustin Browder talked about that one day. They wanted to make the Colossus idea work so hard, i think they ended up screwing everything else design wise.
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On October 01 2011 06:34 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:00 n0ise wrote:
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
Terran in SC2 is literally Toss in SCBW. Its not Terran at all. But, really the issue isn't so much the warp gate OP its how protoss is designed. Blizzard made SC2 Protoss by examining its fualts in BW and buffing it. At the same time they had to nerf some things to keep it balance. Immortals, Charge, Blink, Fast 9 range Reavers. Hell even Archons counter mech now. Also if you were around when Dustin was giving his ideas on Terran. He wanted to make Terran bio very viable vs Protoss. As we all now TvP was by far the hardest match up to play. Terran could be building and in 1 fell swope lose to a 1a Goon Zeal push. Thats why we have quick emps and marauders know. Blizzard made bio the main stay on purpose. And it makes the match up very stale. I have a sad 50min replay if you want to see. Where I struggle to make mech work, but to no avail T_T.
Haven't played BW, so I wouldn't know. Again, it's probably a question of personal preference. I like bio since it allows you to play any playstyle you deem appropriate. You can play macro and campy without leaving your half of the map, you can go mass drop, mass expand, aggressive upgrades and so on.
Pretty cool overall. And, contrary to what OP says, pretty micro and multitasking requiring.
And as a paranthesis about what you said about TvZ - the "bl/infestor" is why most Ts say it's hard to play an -actual- macro game - yes you can have clever timings, constantly trade and build expansions behind this. But if I expand and build my economy for 10-12 mins and he does the same, he's maxed out and halfway to Hive while I have 150 pop trying not to die to mutas. Case in which BL/inf comes much, much faster than 25 mins. That's what "less-then-ideal" design looks like in my mind - that you have to consistently come up with this weird timings, little pushes, harasses, to throw him off - or you're kinda behind by default.
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I love TvP! As a Terran, I often find it the hardest matchup. It probably requires the most micro, and to an extent the most macro from my experiences. It's not just a simple case of massing a ball and hitting a-move. There is, as Thorzain says, a lot of micro. EMPs, spreading to mitigate collosus damage/storm damage, kiting zealots, more drops. You may suggest that they're lower tier units, and it's unfair that they're so strong. But they're only strong when they're used effectively.
I find TvP the best match to watch and the hardest to play, and as a result it's the most interesting. I think pure bio or bio mech will always be more interesting then pure mech - I was half tempted to quit when pure mech was shining the most. It just made games so boring, from a player and spectating perspective.
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It's really a similar issue, if not the same as TvZ. The T army is really efficient and powerful within a small window of parameters. If the T is constantly able to go out on the field, and have even fights against a P, and trade, then it's in T's favor.
If P can win a fight or two, and exchange his composition for more colo/templar than would be available normally, then the game swings in P favor, since T cannot overcompensate without losing balance. You can field 10 colo + 10 templar + rest gate, and have a good army. You cannot bring 30 vikings and 10 ghosts + bio because you won't have enough bio to DPS+survive. The fact is that you HAVE to have a ton of bio to do DPS.
So basically T has a fairly linear and static production cycle with minor variations, that he has to use to suppress the opponent. But this also means that T is really shitty on 3+ gas, since there's zero scaling capability in the army.
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Well, I'm protoss but if T did not have marauders they won't get out of their main until they have seige tanks. (Tastless contain FTW) Haha. I could dream i guess. Yes, warp-ins help but unupgraded marines alone are not a match for gateway balls.
Honestly marauders don't bother me much. Maybe because at my level Ts aren't that good at kiting and so easily get trapped in forcefields. I hate marines way more than marauders. Especially when dropped in mineral lines.
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TvP is a really odd matchup, where I think someone with perfect control and macro will be unbeatable, regardless of how well the Protoss plays (this is barring 1-1-1 which I do think is imbalanced), but like 99% of players I don't have that, so the matchup is hard as fuck. At the highest level, it's possible that it's imbalanced, but at every other level, the people who complain about Terran are idiots. Lategame TvP is extremely hard, and personally, I have never seen anybody beat Hasuobs when he gets Templar/Collosus and a solid 3-4 base economy, regardless of how far behind he is.
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On October 01 2011 06:42 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:25 castled wrote:On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark. Agree with this and the OP. I guess the best you can say for TvZ is that there are a few variations on your attempt to cripple the zerg before 10-12 minutes, whereas for TvP it's always the same if no one allins. That Idea about having to crush zerg before the 10 min mark is total b.s. Its a fib told by qqers. Terran can hold their own against Zerg in a long macro game. That is until BL infestor comes out. Then its gg. But thats around the 25 min mark.
If 25 = 17. It will just be 25 if you keep zerg on his toes the whole game. TvZ is an atrittion war, turtling terran will be picked apart by good muta harass. Ofc Terran doesnt need to kill Zerg right away but he needs to keep zerg guessing, you WILL lose if zerg has 7 bases and 5 macro hatches and creep all over the map. BUT ON THE TOPIC:
PredY man..he is freaking damn right. I want my tanks, I play Terran because it the positional race, the "setup" race. I love TvT and TvZ but TvP is just not fun, I dont want Marauders, I want spider mines. ):
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hasuobs has better micro than anyone (it's a fact. watch some of his games) so obvously he will dominate if he has a good army.
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On October 01 2011 06:45 willsterben wrote:
reading this thread feels like you guys somehow forgot that tvp is the most broken matchup in the game in favor of terran.
how about you slow down a little.
the point op was trying to make is that he doesn't like bio and thinks mech is cooler.
guess what, i prefer bio. and lots of people do as well. i think bio is way cooler to watch than boring tank sieging bullshit.
it needs adjustments on both sides at certain points in the game sure but why the HELL would you want to scratch bio altogether and watch people siege tanks and go afk instead of sick micro maneuvers and gosu multitasking everywhere? WHY?
also LOL at anyone thinking mech is 'not viable' when there is goody who literally does nothing except what i described above and wins.
you might think people would have enough of all that OH HE SIEGED HIS TANKS I GUESS WE AREN'T GOING TO SEE ANYTHING IN THE NEXT 30 MINUTES watching tvt all day erry day in gsl.
properly played mech can be very action-packed and aggressive. also, there is something to say about those who defend immaculately and it is actually fun to watch.
forcing your opponent to attack -> action
needing to do harass to equalize immobile main army -> action
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I feel like Terran actually has a lot of options in TvP. You see someone like Polt (insane TvP record) who opens like reactor Hellion expand into bio, there's one/two base 1/1/1 builds, cloaked banshee openings, an expand build that gets a couple siege tanks + siege mode for defense, ghost pressure, and even occasional mech or biomech. Drop play and multi-tasking is strongly rewarded, and even BFH drops can be viable.
Why would you want to be forced into siege tanks for all three match-ups? They already have viable timings in TvP, and pair really well with banshees against pure ground because stalkers are the only G2A AA toss has. Don't agree with OP at all.
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I don't think the match ups in SC2 are even close to how entertaining and deep they were in BW! I thought I'd post a TvP and TvZ for those unfamiliar. Check these out if you haven't watched much pro BW and compare them to the sc2 matchups. To me it's like comparing Michelangelo's David to that clay ash tray I made in art class when I was 8.
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yeah and now compare those games to sc1 game 1 year after release.
thanks though. will watch.
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EPT
