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Pure mech was viable in BW, pure bio wasn't. So far in SC2, bio is viable, but mech is still having some trouble. Give it time. It might take a switch from bio -> mech to allow pure mech to hold 2 base pushes. Once you get 6 gas, mech becomes much more viable.
The main problems with PvT is the strength of Terran in small numbers (see bio) and the strength of Protoss when maxed (death ball). Then after the maxed battle is over, it's a race to who can remax the fastest (more gateway bio). The lack of slow pushes in the matchup, unlike TvZ or TvT is the main problem with mech imo.
I think maurader hellion to open and harass -> hellion tank viking might work on a map like T'D Alter where there is room to counter attack and drop with hellions. In BW, mech worked a lot better when you could expand towards your opponent. Most maps in SC2 have expos ring the outside of the map, making mech more difficult.
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After re-reading thorugh this thread. I find that you keep skipping on what to reply to me. I haven't flamed you. Untill A Terran Player, or Predy responds to this post with at least as much effort as I put into it. Im done with this discussion. You can go play broodwar if you dont want to have the discussion you decided to create. n0ise said it with the least amount of words
+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 04:45 ohampatu wrote:
You dont mention balance at all. But a racial whine falls into the same category as a balance whine. My reading skills work as well as your's it seems. Also, discusions become very frivoulous when all you can do is bash the poster defending what you stated.
The reason you didn't get banned instead of somebody else, is because your writing skills are better than most. A mod would have banned me if i wrote what you did in any less grammitcally correct way. Because you have blue posts and are 'respected' or whatever means your whining is valid?
But i'll skip over your post being a 'hidden' whine about the protoss race or game design. Lets look at this thread as a whole. If your posts dont follow under that catgory, half the posts after do.
I'll break it down a bit more for you.
1. I have a 200/200 army. Im fighting a terran. That army is going to consist of prolly 4ish colosus with 3ish+ templar. The rest of my army is Gateway Units. Technically Templar is gateway anyway. So To be honest, apart from the 25+ supply of Colosus I have, im using only gateway units. By your argument that is wrong, because if i wanted i should be able to do something besides mass gateway units right?
2. Zerg has a 200/200 army. They are fighting a protoss. That army is going to consist of mostly lings, or roaches. They will add in a few casters (infestors) and try and make it to brood lords. By your argument, zerg should be able to do something other than just mass roach and/or ling right?
3. Terran has a 200/200 army. They are fighting protoss. That army is is going to consist of mostly marines/marauders. They will add in a few casters (sometimes early for a timing push, most defintely by late game to neutralize my casters) and vikings.
Can you physically tell me what the problem is? I can. The problem is you want to make only mech, and thats not how the game is balanced. This isn't Broodwar TvP. If you want Broodwar TvP go play Broodwar. In Starcraft 2, all of the races have the same canundrum. We all have to have mostly 't1ish' units. Why would terran be allowed to have multiple completely different tech paths available that work in all situations, and the other races not? I dont see protoss complaining that zealots/stalkers are the majority of their army. I dont see zergs complaing that lings and/or roaches are the majority of their army. You want to know what i do see? I see terrans complaining that marines/marauders are the majority of their army.
Its RIDICULOUS.
If you want i can copy/paste what you say specifically:
"The thing with TvP is that it doesn't feel terran-ish at all, if i wanted to make a lot of T1 units i'd play zerg! I really hate getting slaughtered by high tech protoss lategame army with HTs and Collosus, while i battle them with "awesome" marauders. As i said, TvP is really frustrating for me, making me not wanting to play the game at all, therefore there might be some over-the-top comparisons, hope you understand what i meant and give some feedback."
So. Umm. Read what i posted above. We all have to make mostly T1 units. So maybe you should go back to Broodwar or something. The fact that you even state 'zerg is fine with making only t1 untis' and assume that should be correct, and then go on to assume that you shouldn't have to do that is fucking stupid dude.
We all have to do that. You are too caught up in your good old broodwar days. That you fail to see your complaining about something that is the STAPLE for all units. I'll go on re-iterate the first post after yours:
n0ise
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
edit: the post i have in spoilers, and the post on the previous page are the two posts i would like terrans to respond to
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:55 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 05:38 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote:
Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered?
Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do.
Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts.
Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here.
Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks.
So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. yeahhh, no. + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote:
Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of:
Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters.
If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech.
Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game.
Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. so i assume you've never played broodwar nor watched it which means you shouldn't really talk about something you don't understand. from your tone it's obvious you'd like to flame so i'm not sure what to do now. i can probably tell you what i mean by the OP but you'll probably won't care anyway. in starcraft all races are different yet you talk about every race using their tier 1 units with some tech support and caster support which is fine. as someone already stated, factory tech is a more completed tech than robo tech which act as a support to main ground gateway force. it was the same in BW, where there were reaver, HT and arbiters. How do you explain that in sc2 in tvt pure mech is viable in tvt and tvz but not in tvp. My point was that TvP in sc2 is very limited unlike the other 2 matchups and very stale, not fun to play. I tried to explain why mech (tanks) make the game exciting, i don't know what you didnt understand. I stated it's my personal oppinion which means you don't have to agree with me. Thanks for responding. Im not trying to be a flamer or anything like that. The 2nd half page post I made was thought out imo, trying to showcase how i saw the game. Believe me i wouldn't waste 200 words on a thread for no reason other than to make you mad, its not worth my time. Again, all it feels like is that im being bashed for showing the obvious 'relationships' between the races and how the game 'plays out'. Why does the argument have to be 'factory tech is more complete so it should work'. Or 'it works in TvT' but nothing else. It doesn't work in all mu's. It works for certain unit comps, and Zerg and Terran unit comps allow the full mech to work. Protoss unit comps do not (according to you and apparently every terran, which i disagree on). Each race is designed differently. But still falls to the same thing i stated then. What 'n0ise' posted was completely accurate. What i want is a discussion that doesn't revolve around Broodwar or Race vs Race. I wish you would look at unit comp instead and base it off of that. Because of the way Terran and Zerg play out through the game, it leaves it possibly to play almost purely mech against them. To be honest though nobody really plays full mech, most people do a hybrid bio-mech. Even pure late game mech included ghosts. Protoss isn't like that though. The current unit comps that Protoss favors currently seem to decimate pure mech. Thats just how the game is. Like in your original post i did play beta, and remember the 60 dmg. And it needed nerfed. It didn't break tvz. It didn't break tvp. It didn't break tvz. The 60 dmg was just too much at the time, partiall because of the maps. Do you remember playing TvP on Steppes? As a toss it was ridiculous to fight turtle terrans on some maps. This may be able to be changed back now. Hell do it for all i care to see if tanks become more viable. Id rather have a discusion in how to make changes to Terran to make it work vs Protoss then argue about why it worked in Broodwar and why it doesn't work now. Edit: It just feels to me like you think its fine if Terran has all these different options and tech choices and you dont mind ignoring that the other races aren't like this. I feel like you want Terran to be Broodwar Terran. Well, i hate having to make a robo every single game. You think blizzard cares?
yes i know blizzard doesn't care. but as you see in this thread a lot of players tend to agree with me and that means blizzard should care. but they wont i dont have false hopes.
i agree that maps like steppes of war forced blizzard into balancing the game in the certain way. then taldarim altar popped out and we had a whole new set of problems. blizzard made a mistake balancing the game around maps like desert oasis and steppes of war. but it's too late to cry over that.
i have a very objective look into the matchup dont worry. i can see your arguments being very valid. both races make a lot of low tier units and then add spellcasters and other support units. looks good on the paper right? i understand new people coming in that has no experience with BW and they like it. they like to run around with bio and dropping all over the place etc. it's just the way i (and many others in this thread) see it it just doesn't feel like anything we used to play like for years and years in broodwar. is that a wrong thing? it might be. as i said, on maps likes shakuras plateau it works to go biomech or mech because of the map structure. and that's ok because you can make the decision how you want to play. but on maps like taldarim? hell theres no way to outplay protoss who knows what to do (that comes down to the game and unit mechanics i mentioned like warpgates, mobility etc.). that's the main issue i was trying to make. it's just that tanks were adjusted not to be OP in TvZ and on maps like steppes of war, which makes me really sad as i strongly believe that was a bad move.
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Well written OP, but I have to say you need to let BW be BW and SC2 to be SC2. They're different games, and the drastic changes Predy is suggesting/implying won't happen.
I agree from a game design perspective that it would be better if warpgate were a mid/late game ability or not in it at all, and compensate by making gateway units decent..
But even you do make tanks better, terrans will still go MMM. Protoss doesn't have air control usually(unlike zerg) and protoss doesn't have good defensive capabilities(unlike terran) so drop play will always be good. The mobility in going MMM is invaluable.
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On October 02 2011 06:16 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:55 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 05:38 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:24 attwell wrote:
Lol is this a joke? It has to be...a terran complaining that tanks aren't powerful enough and are too easily countered?
Chargelots counter tanks when they have no support and you micro them like a retard, dont target my zealots with the tanks if they are next to your units, you deserve to lose if you do.
Immortals counter tanks, no shit...why are you still massing tanks when I have immortals? Luckily for noobs it is conveniently pre-countered by your first unit, marines, so what are you complaining about? Can't figure out marines? Guess what, blizzard heard about your party and decided to cater it with ghosts.
Void rays counter tanks. OMG call the mayor, an expensive tech tree with expensive units sometimes counters tanks when you leave them alone like an idiot. You know what counters void rays? You guessed it, marines...I'm starting to see a pattern here.
Blink stalks sometimes counter tanks, but not really. They are fragile, do minimal damage, even against armor, and are owned by terran's second unit, marauders, as well as tanks.
So what is the problem exactly? You want to just keep making units and win without reacting or changing tech at all? Mass marines, tanks, and get 5 vikings, you just won 75% of your TvP games. yeahhh, no. + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 05:10 ohampatu wrote:
Well. Im not going to have a discussion based off of:
Broodwar we could do it, so theres precedence. This is a new game. Precedence doesn't matter. Universal Balance and Game Design according to Blizzard is what matters.
If pure robo isn't viable, pure mech shouldn't be either imo. Even in TvT and TvZ its Bio-Mech.
Also, just because the unit comps are similar, doesn't make games similar or opening BO's similar. If it was all that similar, none of us would play the game.
Edit. Regardless whether i think it should be viable or you think it should be. It all depends on blizzard, and the previous 'half page' post i made still hasn't been addressed. so i assume you've never played broodwar nor watched it which means you shouldn't really talk about something you don't understand. from your tone it's obvious you'd like to flame so i'm not sure what to do now. i can probably tell you what i mean by the OP but you'll probably won't care anyway. in starcraft all races are different yet you talk about every race using their tier 1 units with some tech support and caster support which is fine. as someone already stated, factory tech is a more completed tech than robo tech which act as a support to main ground gateway force. it was the same in BW, where there were reaver, HT and arbiters. How do you explain that in sc2 in tvt pure mech is viable in tvt and tvz but not in tvp. My point was that TvP in sc2 is very limited unlike the other 2 matchups and very stale, not fun to play. I tried to explain why mech (tanks) make the game exciting, i don't know what you didnt understand. I stated it's my personal oppinion which means you don't have to agree with me. Thanks for responding. Im not trying to be a flamer or anything like that. The 2nd half page post I made was thought out imo, trying to showcase how i saw the game. Believe me i wouldn't waste 200 words on a thread for no reason other than to make you mad, its not worth my time. Again, all it feels like is that im being bashed for showing the obvious 'relationships' between the races and how the game 'plays out'. Why does the argument have to be 'factory tech is more complete so it should work'. Or 'it works in TvT' but nothing else. It doesn't work in all mu's. It works for certain unit comps, and Zerg and Terran unit comps allow the full mech to work. Protoss unit comps do not (according to you and apparently every terran, which i disagree on). Each race is designed differently. But still falls to the same thing i stated then. What 'n0ise' posted was completely accurate. What i want is a discussion that doesn't revolve around Broodwar or Race vs Race. I wish you would look at unit comp instead and base it off of that. Because of the way Terran and Zerg play out through the game, it leaves it possibly to play almost purely mech against them. To be honest though nobody really plays full mech, most people do a hybrid bio-mech. Even pure late game mech included ghosts. Protoss isn't like that though. The current unit comps that Protoss favors currently seem to decimate pure mech. Thats just how the game is. Like in your original post i did play beta, and remember the 60 dmg. And it needed nerfed. It didn't break tvz. It didn't break tvp. It didn't break tvz. The 60 dmg was just too much at the time, partiall because of the maps. Do you remember playing TvP on Steppes? As a toss it was ridiculous to fight turtle terrans on some maps. This may be able to be changed back now. Hell do it for all i care to see if tanks become more viable. Id rather have a discusion in how to make changes to Terran to make it work vs Protoss then argue about why it worked in Broodwar and why it doesn't work now. Edit: It just feels to me like you think its fine if Terran has all these different options and tech choices and you dont mind ignoring that the other races aren't like this. I feel like you want Terran to be Broodwar Terran. Well, i hate having to make a robo every single game. You think blizzard cares? yes i know blizzard doesn't care. but as you see in this thread a lot of players tend to agree with me and that means blizzard should care. but they wont i dont have false hopes. i agree that maps like steppes of war forced blizzard into balancing the game in the certain way. then taldarim altar popped out and we had a whole new set of problems. blizzard made a mistake balancing the game around maps like desert oasis and steppes of war. but it's too late to cry over that. i have a very objective look into the matchup dont worry. i can see your arguments being very valid. both races make a lot of low tier units and then add spellcasters and other support units. looks good on the paper right? i understand new people coming in that has no experience with BW and they like it. they like to run around with bio and dropping all over the place etc. it's just the way i (and many others in this thread) see it it just doesn't feel like anything we used to play like for years and years in broodwar. is that a wrong thing? it might be. as i said, on maps likes shakuras plateau it works to go biomech or mech because of the map structure. and that's ok because you can make the decision how you want to play. but on maps like taldarim? hell theres no way to outplay protoss who knows what to do (that comes down to the game and unit mechanics i mentioned like warpgates, mobility etc.). that's the main issue i was trying to make. it's just that tanks were adjusted not to be OP in TvZ and on maps like steppes of war, which makes me really sad as i strongly believe that was a bad move.
without defilers, smart-firing tanks in sc2 with 70 damage break the game. period.
i respect you as a player but you need to wake up and listen to yourself.
1. you admit that the majority of your reasoning for 'bio being the only viable option in TvP being bad' is because its "not what you are used to playing for 10 years and its not 'terran'"
2. you expect to be taken seriously even though you don't use ANY objective logic whatsoever in either stating your argument or responding to it.
3. BW and SC2 are DIFFERENT FUCKING GAMES. if you want TvP mech so bad, the hardest matchup in the game bar ZvT btw, go back to bw, sign up for ISL3 if its ever gonna be run and go win peanuts in the biggest non-korean bw tournament still going on, if you still want to play bw.
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On October 01 2011 06:00 n0ise wrote:
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio death ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
so true
did you ever lose with chargelot archon templar
or blink stalker colossus vs mass t1?
NO YOU DIDNT (or maybe you did and played horrible)
there is not that much of a difference since its even harder for terran to go to the right tech since they need to react to the protoss killer- units instead of having killer-units themselves
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On October 02 2011 06:06 ohampatu wrote:After re-reading thorugh this thread. I find that you keep skipping on what to reply to me. I haven't flamed you. Untill A Terran Player, or Predy responds to this post with at least as much effort as I put into it. Im done with this discussion. You can go play broodwar if you dont want to have the discussion you decided to create. n0ise said it with the least amount of words + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 04:45 ohampatu wrote:
You dont mention balance at all. But a racial whine falls into the same category as a balance whine. My reading skills work as well as your's it seems. Also, discusions become very frivoulous when all you can do is bash the poster defending what you stated.
The reason you didn't get banned instead of somebody else, is because your writing skills are better than most. A mod would have banned me if i wrote what you did in any less grammitcally correct way. Because you have blue posts and are 'respected' or whatever means your whining is valid?
But i'll skip over your post being a 'hidden' whine about the protoss race or game design. Lets look at this thread as a whole. If your posts dont follow under that catgory, half the posts after do.
I'll break it down a bit more for you.
1. I have a 200/200 army. Im fighting a terran. That army is going to consist of prolly 4ish colosus with 3ish+ templar. The rest of my army is Gateway Units. Technically Templar is gateway anyway. So To be honest, apart from the 25+ supply of Colosus I have, im using only gateway units. By your argument that is wrong, because if i wanted i should be able to do something besides mass gateway units right?
2. Zerg has a 200/200 army. They are fighting a protoss. That army is going to consist of mostly lings, or roaches. They will add in a few casters (infestors) and try and make it to brood lords. By your argument, zerg should be able to do something other than just mass roach and/or ling right?
3. Terran has a 200/200 army. They are fighting protoss. That army is is going to consist of mostly marines/marauders. They will add in a few casters (sometimes early for a timing push, most defintely by late game to neutralize my casters) and vikings.
Can you physically tell me what the problem is? I can. The problem is you want to make only mech, and thats not how the game is balanced. This isn't Broodwar TvP. If you want Broodwar TvP go play Broodwar. In Starcraft 2, all of the races have the same canundrum. We all have to have mostly 't1ish' units. Why would terran be allowed to have multiple completely different tech paths available that work in all situations, and the other races not? I dont see protoss complaining that zealots/stalkers are the majority of their army. I dont see zergs complaing that lings and/or roaches are the majority of their army. You want to know what i do see? I see terrans complaining that marines/marauders are the majority of their army.
Its RIDICULOUS.
If you want i can copy/paste what you say specifically:
"The thing with TvP is that it doesn't feel terran-ish at all, if i wanted to make a lot of T1 units i'd play zerg! I really hate getting slaughtered by high tech protoss lategame army with HTs and Collosus, while i battle them with "awesome" marauders. As i said, TvP is really frustrating for me, making me not wanting to play the game at all, therefore there might be some over-the-top comparisons, hope you understand what i meant and give some feedback."
So. Umm. Read what i posted above. We all have to make mostly T1 units. So maybe you should go back to Broodwar or something. The fact that you even state 'zerg is fine with making only t1 untis' and assume that should be correct, and then go on to assume that you shouldn't have to do that is fucking stupid dude.
We all have to do that. You are too caught up in your good old broodwar days. That you fail to see your complaining about something that is the STAPLE for all units. I'll go on re-iterate the first post after yours:
n0ise
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
edit: the post i have in spoilers, and the post on the previous page are the two posts i would like terrans to respond to
Well, I imagine the reason people aren't too keen on responding is because you start off backseat moderating, which is annoying. That aside, you also seem to be confused about the entire conversation. This is not about Protoss or TvP alone and this is not a racial whine or a balance whine and whether or not Protoss should be able to have more options is a different discussion.
This is about TvP versus TvT and TvZ. In the latter two match-ups, Terran players have more options than they do in TvP and it is the opinion of many people here that that limitation has made the match-up stale and less interesting than the others and less interesting than it could be. Brood War is being used as a reference because mech was viable there and it provided for some very interesting games. So, people would like to bring some of that same dynamic to SC2. People are also talking about the aspects of the Protoss race that limit Terran players' options and how the Protoss race could be changed to be more interesting and the aspects of SC2 itself that contribute to this problem, as well.
That is what we are talking about. You post seems to be about something else.
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Sure, Terran in TvP might have fewer options than you would like, but you seem to bash Protoss WAYY too much. Protoss have to build their composition reactively in most situations, so technically they have even less choices than Terran does.
Also, saying that something was like X in Brood War doesn't make it a good idea in Starcraft. Different games etc.
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To the OP, I agree with your post but I would advise you not waste your breath trying to convince anyone of it. Here on the internet everyone believes their opinion is of paramount importance.
The people who agree will quietly support you, and everyone else will simply talk louder and more obnoxiously until they're sure you understand they believe themselves much smarter than you. Persuasion doesn't exist on internet forums.
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As a protoss player I have pretty much the same feelings about the match up. Every game I fight marine marauder (or 1-1-1) and there's rarely any differences. The only way i can distinguish terran styles is expansion timings, aggression and ratio of the M/M/M/ghost/viking. There's no such thing like "Ooh interesting this terran is making <insert more fun units composition here>" and as such I only need to scout for cheese and then I do whatever strategy I want. Protoss can choose from more unit compositions I feel like with either upgrades, HTs, colossi or archons in the mid game.
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I get that you (PredY) aren't exactly a nobody (I saw you play at Dreamhack I believe, that's all great) but your post is a bit whiny for a good player and a blue poster imho. So, stop me if I'm wrong, but as I understand, you don't like TvP, because you can't make tanks, and you must produce biological units, marauder especially, which you don't like, and you don't like warp gate, colossus, void rays either. You find that Broodwar was a much more interesting game because of tanks and the positional play they promote. Fine.
Broodwar was indeed very interesting, but it was also a completely different game, you can't just buff tanks to 60 damage and have again the BW experience in SC2 (we can all agree that with that kind of buff you can indeed make terran more "interesting", as in "having a full 64 terran roster GSL Code A and Code S" and such: tanks would rape TvZ, and you just have to 111 the other race to oblivion). If you want strong mech play vs Protoss, you would likely have to change protoss, and zerg indirectly. Furthermore, finding tanks more interesting than bio is your own opinion, not everyone shares it, don't make it some kind of universal truth.
With that out of the window, it's still true than a Terran tech path is not very viable against Protoss atm. Oh! The horror! Terran cannot just decide to build whatever they feel like and still win? Can I go stargate void rays + carriers? Do I whine about stargate not being viable against terran? About it not being viable in virtually any matchup?
I seriously hope that your post was not a balance whine (I highly doubt it but still) disguised as a game design/Broodwar nostalgia rant. If you lose a lot vs Protoss atm, it's not because Protoss is too strong and Terran badly designed. But it might be because you just "watch" the fights, as you said.
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I'm not so pessimistic about TvP. The matchup is still changing and even though it may be bio based it will become more and more micro intensive and complex. We all know small changes in future patches may change everything. We're still learning to play here. Look at TvT. The tank nerf saved the matchup!
I do think it's boring we don't have any good transitions out of bio TvP however. Hoping for Hots.
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I agree with PredY in general.
While TvT and TvZ feel varied and fun, TvP just seems like the same thing every game.
I guess the reason for mech to be bad in TvP is that mech units take forever to build and take up huge supply. Watch a toss kill all your tanks and reappear with a fresh set of stalker/zealot/templar before your first hellion even popped.
I hope blizz has put some thought into HotS.
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On October 02 2011 06:06 ohampatu wrote:After re-reading thorugh this thread. I find that you keep skipping on what to reply to me. I haven't flamed you. Untill A Terran Player, or Predy responds to this post with at least as much effort as I put into it. Im done with this discussion. You can go play broodwar if you dont want to have the discussion you decided to create. n0ise said it with the least amount of words + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2011 04:45 ohampatu wrote:
You dont mention balance at all. But a racial whine falls into the same category as a balance whine. My reading skills work as well as your's it seems. Also, discusions become very frivoulous when all you can do is bash the poster defending what you stated.
The reason you didn't get banned instead of somebody else, is because your writing skills are better than most. A mod would have banned me if i wrote what you did in any less grammitcally correct way. Because you have blue posts and are 'respected' or whatever means your whining is valid?
But i'll skip over your post being a 'hidden' whine about the protoss race or game design. Lets look at this thread as a whole. If your posts dont follow under that catgory, half the posts after do.
I'll break it down a bit more for you.
1. I have a 200/200 army. Im fighting a terran. That army is going to consist of prolly 4ish colosus with 3ish+ templar. The rest of my army is Gateway Units. Technically Templar is gateway anyway. So To be honest, apart from the 25+ supply of Colosus I have, im using only gateway units. By your argument that is wrong, because if i wanted i should be able to do something besides mass gateway units right?
2. Zerg has a 200/200 army. They are fighting a protoss. That army is going to consist of mostly lings, or roaches. They will add in a few casters (infestors) and try and make it to brood lords. By your argument, zerg should be able to do something other than just mass roach and/or ling right?
3. Terran has a 200/200 army. They are fighting protoss. That army is is going to consist of mostly marines/marauders. They will add in a few casters (sometimes early for a timing push, most defintely by late game to neutralize my casters) and vikings.
Can you physically tell me what the problem is? I can. The problem is you want to make only mech, and thats not how the game is balanced. This isn't Broodwar TvP. If you want Broodwar TvP go play Broodwar. In Starcraft 2, all of the races have the same canundrum. We all have to have mostly 't1ish' units. Why would terran be allowed to have multiple completely different tech paths available that work in all situations, and the other races not? I dont see protoss complaining that zealots/stalkers are the majority of their army. I dont see zergs complaing that lings and/or roaches are the majority of their army. You want to know what i do see? I see terrans complaining that marines/marauders are the majority of their army.
Its RIDICULOUS.
If you want i can copy/paste what you say specifically:
"The thing with TvP is that it doesn't feel terran-ish at all, if i wanted to make a lot of T1 units i'd play zerg! I really hate getting slaughtered by high tech protoss lategame army with HTs and Collosus, while i battle them with "awesome" marauders. As i said, TvP is really frustrating for me, making me not wanting to play the game at all, therefore there might be some over-the-top comparisons, hope you understand what i meant and give some feedback."
So. Umm. Read what i posted above. We all have to make mostly T1 units. So maybe you should go back to Broodwar or something. The fact that you even state 'zerg is fine with making only t1 untis' and assume that should be correct, and then go on to assume that you shouldn't have to do that is fucking stupid dude.
We all have to do that. You are too caught up in your good old broodwar days. That you fail to see your complaining about something that is the STAPLE for all units. I'll go on re-iterate the first post after yours:
n0ise
What do you mean, T1 units vs "hightech bio ball"
The same mineral resources you invest in marine marauder he invests in zealot/stalker, the gas you invest in ghosts he invests in templars, the gas you invest in starport units he invests in collossi.
This "omg mass t1 vs my t3" is something coined by laddertosses who cheese 9/10 games and start panicking once the game goes past 12 minutes. It's not actually true - there's clear parallels between the tech/gas investment between the races at all stages in the game.
I honestly would take this TvP bio playstyle anyday over making tanks in TvZ and TvT - but I suppose that's personal pref. - you coming from a BW background, as you say, probably like the positional aspect of it more.
edit: the post i have in spoilers, and the post on the previous page are the two posts i would like terrans to respond to
Ill Reply.
First of all your 200/200 numbers are way way off, you really think a toss player is only going to have 4 collsi???? Try 6-8. 3 Templars??? Try 7-9. Your also forgetting to mention about DT's archons as well
Lets compare that to a 200/200 Terran army, a 200/200 T army would be around 20-30 rines, 20-30 rauders 12 vikings 8 medivacs and maybe 6-8 ghosts. The majority of the army is Tier 1(Around 80 supply).
There is a major problem in TvP where the first 15 minutes of the game are dominated by Terran, with their poweful early tier 1 units, and then past the 15 minute mark the game is dominated by the Protoss Tier 3. So you end up in this ridiclous cycle of having to end the game within 15 minutes or you get crushed(not saying every game, yes T can win a game longer than 15, but he is defainetly at a disadvantage when the toss gets 3+ base.) This is a horrible design for a strategy game, it takes away alot from the game and makes the MU way to quick and random. Tier 1 vs Tier 3 is Pretty uninteresting to watch, and almost all TvP's get to the point where the the T wins by never engaging the oppenant but instead by dropping everywhere. If the big battle happens its over in literally seconds.
Now onto the next point that everyone seems to get so offended when people use the term "BW". Have you guys ever put some thought on why people would compare sc2 to BW??? Its not just because its the sequel. What do you guys think the #1 goal of an RTS game with different races??? Balance is what everyone wants, a fun balanced exciting game. A game so balanced that almost every MU ends being 30 to 45 minutes plus because it is so hard to achieve victory in a perfectly balanced game. I hope no one hear has the audacity to claim BW is imbalanced because it is a well known fact that BW is the most balanced RTS there is. So why dont you put some more thought and realize that most people are citing BW because BW=Balance we want SC2 to be just as balanced.
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On October 02 2011 05:09 IGotPlayguuu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 04:58 ohampatu wrote:On October 02 2011 04:54 IGotPlayguuu wrote:On October 02 2011 04:34 Alzadar wrote:
I don't see how this is so different from in BW where mech is the only option in TvP (unless you are Boxer). Not every strategy has to be viable; in fact the game would be stupid if that were the case.
I can't go pure Robotics in any match-up. Immortals should be able to shoot air, to make Robotics play viable. Because I should be able to use only 1/3rd of my tech options and win. Yes, that's true, but mech required was more entertaining to play and watch because it was an epic fight: zealot bombing and carpet storms to break a huge siege line, goon trying to flank, vultures protecting flank with mine, mine dragging, ecc... Now is all about (not saying that is easy) 2 balls emping , storming and stutterstepping mainly. There isn't the feeling of an "extended", prolonged battle/warfare, with tank lines covering ground and vulture protecting flanks. It's 2 balls melting in 4-5 seconds. And no, that's not that fun to watch imo. Whoops. More Broodwar fanbois. Read my last 2 posts. Counter them. If you want a discussion of this caliber (i still can't believe mods are letting this thread go) then have a proper discussion please. we're not complaining that mecch isn't viable and T has too few strategy,we're complaining that theoretically mech fights would allow for more interesting and strategic fights than bio balls clashing. We're not saying tha toss>terran.
Totally agree, Alot of people are misreading this and thinking of this as whine,
The main point of this thread is that the MU is very uninteresting with the way it has meta gamed into MMM G/V vs Gateway/Collsi.
Uninteresting is way different than "imbalance" Predy and alot of Terran players agree the MU is uninteresting, mech is a suggestion to make the MU more interesting.
Hell the MU could turn into hellion/Thor/BC still be tankless and that would mmake for a way more interesting game than a million T1 units getting slaughtered by collsi. Or a Terran that wins just by dropping every point of the map to which the toss cant respond. THere would actully be lengthy high tech battles with one immobile really powerful army compared to a slighty more mobile/versatile Protoss deathball. I hope this helps on what I think the OP and my self are tyring to convey.
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I miss my bw tank !
I would like an upgrade to add mine to hellion or maybe give the g8 grenade/mine to the reaper like in the beta.
I hope blizzard will read this post and fixed tvp in hots
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On October 02 2011 06:35 SeaSwift wrote:
Sure, Terran in TvP might have fewer options than you would like, but you seem to bash Protoss WAYY too much. Protoss have to build their composition reactively in most situations, so technically they have even less choices than Terran does.
Also, saying that something was like X in Brood War doesn't make it a good idea in Starcraft. Different games etc.
Protoss in PvT is not reactive. They choses the tech route and T reacts. MMMG against colossus? Die. MMMV against HT. Die.
Dont scout 2 base DT play, or that cheeky proxy stargate? or warp prism shenanigans? Lose a shit ton of eco.
Dont get me wrong, I love bio and TvP is my fave matchup, however the emphasis is almost 100% on the T to scout perfectly and react accordingly.
You react to drops agreed. Thats about it.
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It's pretty simple.
PvT is not unfun, it's a pretty involved and interesting matchup for the P, that involves the use of the entire tech tree, good defense, good macro.
TvP is not fun. There's like 3 major inflection points total for the T- defend potential 1 base while 1raxCC, get dropship+stim, get 3rd, get ghost. That's it.
That's the entire matchup. All the tech and decision tree is compressed into that, since nothing else is viable. Compare this to TvZ and TvT, which are very full matchups with a lot of possibilities and tech.
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I get these vibes of being thoroughly unimpressed when I think that a not very highly ranked player makes a write-up like this and gets praised by similar gold and below ranked players. Sorry, I just don't see the TvP matchup the same way as you do- this coming from a masters random player who plays both plenty of TvPs and PvTs as well as watching many interesting pro PvTs in the past year.
Bio ball vs deathball is the staple of TvP of SC2 just as much as vulture tank vs zealot goon templar arbiter was in BW. You already know the types of units you generally want for end-game for both games. Aside from the differences in how they're used, the concept is the same. And in SC1, I've never heard of bio vs protoss being successful outside of cheesing. Talk about strategy limitations there!
If you're T fighting P, you can handily bet your ass that fights are gonna be micro intensive. The micro comes from pulling off MKP style splits to minimize colossus damage and getting that perfect concave, making sure your vikings don't get sniped by the menacing stalker ball. Pull it off right and you make TvP look stacked so heavily for T instead of getting plain rolled over. Read ThorZain's response in the first page. You should take that lil' snippet very seriously.
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On October 02 2011 10:42 Lunchador wrote:
I get these vibes of being thoroughly unimpressed when I think that a not very highly ranked player makes a write-up like this and gets praised by similar gold and below ranked players. Sorry, I just don't see the TvP matchup the same way as you do- this coming from a masters random player who plays both plenty of TvPs and PvTs as well as watching many interesting pro PvTs in the past year.
Bio ball vs deathball is the staple of TvP of SC2 just as much as vulture tank vs zealot goon templar arbiter was in BW. You already know the types of units you generally want for end-game for both games. Aside from the differences in how they're used, the concept is the same. And in SC1, I've never heard of bio vs protoss being successful outside of cheesing. Talk about strategy limitations there!
If you're T fighting P, you can handily bet your ass that fights are gonna be micro intensive. The micro comes from pulling off MKP style splits to minimize colossus damage and getting that perfect concave, making sure your vikings don't get sniped by the menacing stalker ball. Pull it off right and you make TvP look stacked so heavily for T instead of getting plain rolled over. Read ThorZain's response in the first page. You should take that lil' snippet very seriously.
Noone is saying there is no micro. If they are, sorry i havent seen it. The general vibe seems to be that TvP is so completely reactive its kinda boring. It almost always comes down to 1 or 2 huge fights.
PvZ for instance often has many many big engagments throughout the game. However this is because they often trade armies. In PvT the person who micros better (HT vs Ghost) often decimated the other player.
Did he land 4 godly storms on your bio ebfore you got emps down. You have no army and get rofl stomped. Did you blanket emp everything? GG
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EPT
