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On September 20 2011 18:01 corvaleur wrote:
Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push.
Watch the replay for a little bit more fine-tuned play of it. The 9 minutes of passive play is on purpose, not only does it lead a zerg to feel safe and not produce enough units to defend the drop, it allows me not to risk any losses and get the build out as fast as possible. Safe is the name of the game here.
As far as the addons go, I prefer to keep two barracks with techlabs to produce ghost for infestors in the later game.
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if u force just a few zerglings with a fake moveout at the 7.30 minute mark it can be very effective, as the zerg feels like he needs more drone after he made zerglings to defend (maybe even spines if hes bad).
well i feel dropping at two different locations could be even more powerful with proper micro and multitasking. however, if ure not into that stuff - drop the two medvacs together.
and why u gettin tanks? if u just add some hellions and go with all to elevator, u are nearly sure to do damage.
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On September 20 2011 18:14 sontyp wrote:
if u force just a few zerglings with a fake moveout at the 7.30 minute mark it can be very effective, as the zerg feels like he needs more drone after he made zerglings to defend (maybe even spines if hes bad).
well i feel dropping at two different locations could be even more powerful with proper micro and multitasking. however, if ure not into that stuff - drop the two medvacs together.
and why u gettin tanks? if u just add some hellions and go with all to elevator, u are nearly sure to do damage.
he explains in the vod that fake moveouts can be bad because
a) sometimes the zerg isnt faked at all, and nothing happens
b) the zerg was going an aggressive build and he kills ur entire army the second you "fake moveout"
as for not being able to be aggressive early game, you can try my 2rax variation that i posted a replay of, it doesnt get the 1-1 but you still get 16 stimmed marines in their base (a lil earlier actually)
and as for the hellion follow up, i actually opted to do it in the game i posted, but i do feel tanks are better =\
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also, i'd just like to add, that this build sets up a very very nice +3/+3 infantry timing on 3base as well around 17 or 18mins. and we all know how rofl +3 marines can be, especially as early as 17minutes.
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SeleCT uses this style very often in TvZ, but i guess that he just goes for stim and combat shield and not for bio upgrades.
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On September 20 2011 19:09 saaaa wrote:
SeleCT uses this style very often in TvZ, but i guess that he just goes for stim and combat shield and not for bio upgrades.
The upgrades make a very big differnce. It comes out at almost the same time and can change it from doing a little dmg to winning the game. If you watch my replay I uploaded if it was not for 1-1 I would have not killed his lair.
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i think the Nada TvZ openig (2 rax into 4 rax with early ebay) would fit perfect with this.
Just go for 2 Ebays instead of 1. I love this build of NaDa cause you are safe against everything the zerg can do in the early game and do enogh pressure that the zerg cannot drone up hardly.
NaDa drops 8 Marines with +1 and stim and combat at around 10min mark.
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Although I understand that this build is supposed to be "safe", I feel like a really high eco baneling bust would just end you to begin with.
Don't you think that for the purpose of catching the zerg off guard and doing more damage that a reaper expand into 1-1-1 double medivacs would be better? You start stim and combat shield pretty early, skimp out on the marines, and then get the quickest double medivacs with a fast expo as possible.
You use the reaper for scouting, checking if he has a baneling nest or whatnot or is doing a roach rush, etc.
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On September 20 2011 19:39 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Although I understand that this build is supposed to be "safe", I feel like a really high eco baneling bust would just end you to begin with.
Don't you think that for the purpose of catching the zerg off guard and doing more damage that a reaper expand into 1-1-1 double medivacs would be better? You start stim and combat shield pretty early, skimp out on the marines, and then get the quickest double medivacs with a fast expo as possible.
You use the reaper for scouting, checking if he has a baneling nest or whatnot or is doing a roach rush, etc.
I don't think so no. If you watch the replay I posted I feel that I'm fairly safe against baneling bust with two bunkers and at the very least as safe as most standard builds. Two bunkers is fairly safe against most baneling bust and if you notice he's planning some kind of a baneling bust you can always add one more.
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You don't see a Zerg this unprepared vs a Terran push, ground with siege tanks or favoring drops with medivacs, at the 10 minute mark. I will easily crank out 60+ drones and have enough to crush an incoming push with sling-bling roach / sling-bling muta. Also, at the 10 minute mark, zergs have already made an overseer and scouted you.
Thanks for the guide tho, should help plat/diamond/lowish master players.
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I've been using this build quite a lot on maps with close air position to zergs. It's really effective but I've never tried it with 1-1 upgrades. Usually I have my 2 medivacs and 16 marines around ~8 mins, with combat shield halfway done and attack 1/4th done. There's been a lot of times where i drop and the spire is halfway done, so i pick it off. i'm not sure how safe this build will be if Z goes mutalisk, but this build will transition nicely into tank marine with quick 3/3 bio upgrades.
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So it won't hit til atleast 9:30. I think it can work up to diamond. But in masters I have spire done by 10 minutes and will have plenty of lings to defend the drop til mutas are out to kill medivacs. Maybe I'm weird for trying to get a fast spire against terran though.
Overall I see how this build can work 
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I do the same thing off a reaper expand
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Thank you sir for posting a most commendable build! As a mid master zerg, I heartily approve any strategy which involves Terrans delaying tanks in favor of.. anything, to be honest. Like Binxy noted with his mutas, my infestors come out prior to 9:30, which is usually when a 3 tank + marine push arrives. Unfortunately, against a competent (not low master) Zerg your 16 marines will usually be greeted by either muta+ling+bane or fungal + bane (my personal favorite). But, that's no reason not to keep doing the build until you start hitting better players! Keep not making tanks gents, tanks are evil!
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On September 20 2011 23:27 Boraz wrote:So it won't hit til atleast 9:30. I think it can work up to diamond. But in masters I have spire done by 10 minutes and will have plenty of lings to defend the drop til mutas are out to kill medivacs. Maybe I'm weird for trying to get a fast spire against terran though. Overall I see how this build can work
The OP has masters replays, what makes you think it will not work there?
I'm also not sure how you plan to defend the drop with only lings if he drops them in a choke/mineral line/choke. Your mutas will not do anything if he already unloaded his marines in your base; they're only good to prevent drops from arriving. You need more than that to actually take out the marines once they are there; mutas vs 1-1 marines is a terrible fight to pick, especially that early on when you definitely don't have 16 mutas to match his marine numbers.
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On September 20 2011 23:14 DustinQQ wrote:
I've been using this build quite a lot on maps with close air position to zergs. It's really effective but I've never tried it with 1-1 upgrades. Usually I have my 2 medivacs and 16 marines around ~8 mins, with combat shield halfway done and attack 1/4th done. There's been a lot of times where i drop and the spire is halfway done, so i pick it off. i'm not sure how safe this build will be if Z goes mutalisk, but this build will transition nicely into tank marine with quick 3/3 bio upgrades.
if you can get a replay of a FE build that has 16marines and 2 medivacs at 8minutes, i'd be very interested in seeing it, as well as pretty much every terran pro out there lol.
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On September 20 2011 20:28 Avaran wrote:
You don't see a Zerg this unprepared vs a Terran push, ground with siege tanks or favoring drops with medivacs, at the 10 minute mark. I will easily crank out 60+ drones and have enough to crush an incoming push with sling-bling roach / sling-bling muta. Also, at the 10 minute mark, zergs have already made an overseer and scouted you.
Thanks for the guide tho, should help plat/diamond/lowish master players.
I think you fail to see the point. If this drop does even zero damage then you are still fine to play for the late game. If you were not greedy and built enough defenses then thats great for you and fine by this build. It's not an all in or a must do damage push by any means, you will have two bases 1-1 ups with stim and combat shield and siege tanks pumping as soon as it's ready to move out. If it can't actually do any damage 2 or so minutes later you'll have the tanks to take your 3rd and the minerals to through up tons of rax and 2 extra facts.
I would like to add similar builds have been used in the GSL though not with 1-1 upgrades at the same timings with great success, which is part of the reason I messed around with it. It's not something only platinum players do and is working well for me in masters[mid masters only of course].
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This seems like a good build but I do not understand how you can think that 2 bunkers are safe against a baneling bust? In my experience not even a wall-off + 3 bunkers is safe if he really commits to the bust.
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On September 21 2011 04:07 MockHamill wrote:
This seems like a good build but I do not understand how you can think that 2 bunkers are safe against a baneling bust? In my experience not even a wall-off + 3 bunkers is safe if he really commits to the bust.
I said against most. If you lose to an early-game baneling bust that 3 bunkers and a wall off can not hold please upload the replay so I can adjust my build and scouting. Chances are though if you lose to a pre 9 minute baneling bust you 1. had no clue at all it was coming and didn't prepare at all or 2. you didn't micro proper [scv repairs/target banelings etc] or 3. a mixture of both. I think it's very unlikely you can lose to a baneling bust pre-9 minutes with 3 bunkers and a wall off, if not impossible.
I really love finding out new things and adjusting builds accordingly though, so if anyone has a replay of them losing pre 9:30 to a baneling bust with a wall off and 3 bunkers full of marines please upload it!
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EPT
