Introduction *PLEASE note I do not try and select the highest quality players to show the builds, my play time is limited and I just find what games I can to show. The main goal is to show the idea behind the build order. The games are always low to mid masters. Check the replay added for higher quality game. Hello,
This build is designed to be a very powerful attack that comes about the ten minute mark, and it comes with 1-1 upgrades with combat shield and stim on the marines. It's also meant to play standard and safe. The idea behind it is if the zerg gets too greedy and goes for 75 drones and 3 bases before 10 minutes like happens a lot now they will just die to the drop - and if they have proper defense you lose nothing and have two bases up good upgrades tech and saturation prepared to play standard from there.
The fundamentals behind the build
As described in the introduction, I started using this build to make sure zergs didn't get too greedy. I played a lot of games where I would play far too passive and I would just lose to 3 base 70 drone zergs while still on 2 bases with 45 scvs. How ever, some times I would try to be aggressive and lose all my units to a zerg who was ready to flank my fake move out, or even worse didn't buy into my fake attack and didn't build any units. I also tried all-ins but I don't really like those too much as if they get crushed[they were not being greedy] I lose. So I had to find a way to not let them get too greedy to give my self a chance in the standard game while not taking huge risk.
So the core behind this build is to have a safe way to punish too greedy zergs, and if they were not too greedy then you will not lose anything at all and be left with good upgrades units and saturation on two bases and you can play safe and standard from there with out being behind much if any at all.
Special decisions in the build and reasoning behind some things. First of all I like to play safe - so I highly suggest getting two bunkers and a supply depot at the natural when you lift your expansion out there. This way while your drop is in the process you can be safe to counter attacks, it can also suggest to the zerg you are defensive and won't be doing such an aggressive move though you will.
Next, I'd like to point out the reasoning behind combat shields AND stim which delays the push by about 30 seconds. I think combat shield is amazing for holding all-in's and the drop it's self. Marines tanking 1 extra hit can make the difference before killing a hatchery or tech building or not or holding your natural to an all-in or not.
Next is something very important, if they have banelings and zergling waiting for your drop because they some how scouted it do not lose all your marines, it's VERY important to either one, drop marines on individual banelings to be cost effective, or two just fly back and play standard from there.
Another choice if you really want to have a even stronger drop but I think is a little bit worse to play standard afterwords if you do no damage is get one viking first and clear the over-lords on your drop path so they are caught 100% off guard. This can end the game VERY often.
Lastly, once you go into standard play I suggest at some point on 3 bases to jump to 3 factorys to make up on the tank count as you do lose a couple getting this drop up so fast.
Micro tips: You would be VERY surprised at how much 16 1-1 combat shield stim marines can take out. Do not be afraid to engage a decent amount of lings in a corner, just know your limits. If they only have a few banelings don't be scared, you can target them down very easily or spread if they don't have overwhelming amounts of lings. I see too many times with this build people get scared and don't take out an easily winnable battle, but at the same time don't get over-confident.
Build order: 12 rax 15 orbital 16 supply 17 Command center 23 add two rax 25 add two refinerys put 2 on each gas when finished[total of 3 in each] 31 add two tech labs[produce marines almost non stop from all 3] as soon as you hit 200 gas upgrade stim and combat shields same time next 100 gas add factory + 2 ebays[around 38 - 45 food depending on units you've made] as soon as factorys done make reactor and build star port, when ebays done upgrade armor and weapons instantly as soon as starports done switch to reactor and build double medivacs around 9:30 you should have at least two bunkers full of marines and 16 marines to drop with with 1-1 upgrades[by the time you drop in their base] and stim and combat shields from this point on i suggest tech lab on fact and start getting tanks and seige and play a standard game from here.
Replays: I explain the build in some detail here.
EDIT: I HIGHLY suggest watching this replay over the VoD if you're not interested in commentary. This replay shows the build exacuted much much better and it also shows how strong this build can be even vs a zerg who thinks he's prepared for drops. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13331
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Q1: Have you ever lost your drop to mutas? Q2: Do you open this way without knowing whether the Z plays greedy or not? are there any early indicators to a Z being greedy?
On September 20 2011 08:39 Joner wrote: I like it! and i will try it!
Q1: Have you ever lost your drop to mutas? Q2: Do you open this way without knowing whether the Z plays greedy or not? are there any early indicators to a Z being greedy?
I don't think I've ever lost my drop to mutas. Even at the highest level you rarely ever see mutas before 10 minutes, if at all. I use scans to scout for spire and even if they have mutas up you can choose to one attack anyways or two don't do the drop and play standard from there. I normally attack as 90% of the time I can drop them before mutas intercept my drop. That is the beauty of this build is that you end up with a way to pressure that is safe for standard play and doesn't put you far behind even if you don't kill any units with it.
As for the second question, I open this way in the majority of my TvZ. I want to force him not to be greedy no matter what, so if he knows I'm doing this build and he prepares for it very well great - he's not greedy and I'm not behind much if at all as I have 1-1 upgrades a 3rd going and tanks on the way. If he is greedy, I do major damage. Great, I'm ahead.
The biggest way to spot how greedy they are is a scan, check their drone count and look for whats coming out of eggs or if you see any units. Rather they are greedy or not is not the deciding factor in using this build or not though, it's to force them not to be greedy and if they are you do huge damage and if not you are equal or close to equal with them.
Reallllly nice build that i've seen GSL players do as well, i dont know about the 1-1 though. i feel like going for earlier siege tanks / some more rax and reactors might be better and later ups. i dono though.
The reason this build is so good is because A) you get a fast safe expo b) get ALL tech out and all important upgrades immediately which is amazing and most importantly c) the zerg usually won't see it coming until it's too late and will have like 3 units if they took a third and maybe some mutas.
on top of all that i usually get the spire.
so goood ! although this build was already done by GSL players, thanks!
About building a viking to clear the air path, two things :
One, this is why I've started using zerglings to cover drop paths when possible, and
Two, that's a giant tell in itself. Though it is useful to float around killing overlords to deny map vision, it tells me as a zerg that you've got a starport up and running and don't want me to be able to see all these drop paths for some reason. Though I wouldn't be inspired to pre-emptively overprepare for drops, I'd certainly be wary of potential drops and would endeavor to both check whether or not you're planning to drop and position to receive drops anyhow.
This is extra true if I've scouted and seen no other tech, such as Blue Flame or Siege tanks, but have seen barracks with tech labs and upgrades. If I know you've got bio upgrades and a starport, I'm probably going to put one and one together.
Other than that, sick guide! I'm all for builds that punish greedy openers while remaining safe! Though greedy openers do help a lot of people win, ill-gotten economies can pretty easily be compared to flat-out cheeses as far as I'm concerned :D
On September 20 2011 08:56 necrOtix wrote: Reallllly nice build that i've seen GSL players do as well, i dont know about the 1-1 though. i feel like going for earlier siege tanks / some more rax and reactors might be better and later ups. i dono though.
The reason this build is so good is because A) you get a fast safe expo b) get ALL tech out and all important upgrades immediately which is amazing and most importantly c) the zerg usually won't see it coming until it's too late and will have like 3 units if they took a third and maybe some mutas.
on top of all that i usually get the spire.
so goood ! although this build was already done by GSL players, thanks!
I really like setting my self up for uber late-game, so that early upgrades and two ebays allows me to get to 3-3 as fast as possible. This is why I do it. If you plan on being much more aggressive after the drop more barracks might be the better choice!
About building a viking to clear the air path, two things :
One, this is why I've started using zerglings to cover drop paths when possible, and
Two, that's a giant tell in itself. Though it is useful to float around killing overlords to deny map vision, it tells me as a zerg that you've got a starport up and running and don't want me to be able to see all these drop paths for some reason. Though I wouldn't be inspired to pre-emptively overprepare for drops, I'd certainly be wary of potential drops and would endeavor to both check whether or not you're planning to drop and position to receive drops anyhow.
This is extra true if I've scouted and seen no other tech, such as Blue Flame or Siege tanks, but have seen barracks with tech labs and upgrades. If I know you've got bio upgrades and a starport, I'm probably going to put one and one together.
Other than that, sick guide! I'm all for builds that punish greedy openers while remaining safe! Though greedy openers do help a lot of people win, ill-gotten economies can pretty easily be compared to flat-out cheeses as far as I'm concerned :D
I agree there with the viking. Against very high level-players who have seen similar builds before I would prefer not to get it. I actually very rarely get it as if they are going mutas my drop comes too late. It also is more of a I hope this works attack compared to cool if it does doesn't matter if it doesn't attack.
I think that with higher lvl zergs it will not succeed. That zerg had only bane nest(zero lair tech) and no map awerness whatsoever. The guide is written fantasticly, but I just feel it can be shattered by a good macro zerg (he was like platinum/diamond?) and after defending ur drop with ling bane or ling bane infestor hes on 3 saturated bases (9.30 is full 3 base saturo i think) and You will have to wait to get out with at least 4 tanks to take Your third. You can always fall back, get mech support and push anyways with nice upgraded marines, but this drop feels risky to me.
And one more thing - You can read drop play by going to Your bunker line with 1-2 lings - no siege tank shots (if You fail to scout the main base) = bio/blue flame drops.
On September 20 2011 09:13 voy wrote: I think that with higher lvl zergs it will not succeed. That zerg had only bane nest(zero lair tech) and no map awerness whatsoever. The guide is written fantasticly, but I just feel it can be shattered by a good macro zerg (he was like platinum/diamond?) and after defending ur drop with ling bane or ling bane infestor hes on 3 saturated bases (9.30 is full 3 base saturo i think) and You will have to wait to get out with at least 4 tanks to take Your third. You can always fall back, get mech support and push anyways with nice upgraded marines, but this drop feels risky to me.
It's a masters game[he was bottom of masters]. I don't think it's really risky at all. You will have full saturation on two bases with a third going up when the drops move out and 1-2 siege tanks by the time the drop starts landing. You are very short from taking your third with great upgrades and tons of rax on the way. If he pumps nothing but drones until 9:30 chances are you will do damage with this drop as well, be ahead in tech and upgrades and ready to take your third since he won't have many units to be offensive with vs your high tech upgraded army.
If he didn't pump nothing but drones until 9:30 then you're also still fine just pull back and play from there with no losses.
I'd like to emphasize this is not a all-in or must do damage thing. This is to either 1. Force him to prepare for a large drop by making units and using more APM towards defense, or 2. Do damage if he disregarded doing that. Think of it like pushing out in SC1 to force them to build a bunch of sunkens, or die in a way.
I really like this build. The other thing you can do with 2 medivacs worth of marines on a map like shakuras is drop 1 on the low ground and 1 on the high ground. Then run the ones on the high ground in, take out some drones, and run back to the low ground cover once they bring in the lings/blings, or just pick up and re-drop. Makes it extremely cost efficient and annoying.
How do you hold a 2 base baneling bust? I love getting out the fast upgrades and medivacs, but until all that tech is out you have to be careful about being too greedy.
This build truly highlights the insane efficiency and potency of Marines. Zerg truly needs a dedicated response to stop this build, and oftentimes the Zerg cannot tell it is coming because Terrans can hide tech very easily. I would recommend this build, as I have lost to it many times before.
do you think its better to split the medivacs and double prong or to keep them together and hit him hard?
This depends. Some times the zerg will have the units to defend the push and you'll drop one dropship and he'll instantly force you to lift up with the queen attacking the medivac so you're forced to run. Mean while the other drones will be instantly pulled and before you get close to killing the hatchery he has his units to clean that drop up too and you end up doing almost no damage. This of course is only if the zerg is very good and has creep connecting his bases.
If they are all in one spot[the marines] you can take on much larger numbers of units.
How do you hold a 2 base baneling bust? I love getting out the fast upgrades and medivacs, but until all that tech is out you have to be careful about being too greedy.
Two bunkers normally hold any two base baneling bust that come before combat shields and high enough marine numbers.
I'd love to see some more replays of this build versus different Z openers, would be nice if you could provide some! =)
Working on that, how ever my play time is small right now and I've been hitting only terrans and protoss when I play the ladder lately.
On September 20 2011 15:45 hongster wrote: How do you handle any kind of early roach rush? ie how do you react if you scout 1 base, pool and gas going down?
Bunkers are pretty much answer to all roach rushes if you scout or sense them coming. If you defend you're very very likely to win. If you see he has no expand and has gas and pool and you think there is a good chance he's going roach just build a bunker or two and have scvs ready to repair - you'll be fine. You can always sell it later. Tanks are always almost unrealistic to get to defend roach rushes unless you're rushing to them and still you need a bunker.
My mutas are on the field at like 9:30 even when playing standard vs hellion pressure, with no pressure at all like this I would probably have them around 9 minutes with 2 full saturated bases and a macro hatch. 1-1 marines will be really good for fending off my harass though, and my 1-1 will certainly not be done yet.
Seems solid except vs roach bane aggression that would also hit around the 9 minute mark. When all you would have is 25 0-0 marines and a bunker.
Here's a replay of me doing a similar build. I don't go for the 1-1, maybe i should, but I open 2rax so I can a) kill that annoying overlord that likes to camp ur base on shattered, and b) apply pressure even earlier if i feel like it, and c) feel even safer from any zerg aggression.
His build might be a little more efficient than mine, but he only posted a VoD against a greedy zerg, so I thought i'd post a replay vs a less greedy zerg.
On September 20 2011 16:42 spbelky wrote: Here's a replay of me doing a similar build. I don't go for the 1-1, maybe i should, but I open 2rax so I can a) kill that annoying overlord that likes to camp ur base on shattered, and b) apply pressure even earlier if i feel like it, and c) feel even safer from any zerg aggression.
His build might be a little more efficient than mine, but he only posted a VoD against a greedy zerg, so I thought i'd post a replay vs a less greedy zerg.
I've done this a few other times with much better success, but this is the first one I found.
I just uploaded a replay against a zerg who actually builds a very odd amount of zerglings and me executing the build a LOT better. I very highly suggest people watch this replay over this vod if they want to see it with out commentary. The drop kills off 32 speedlings and a lair and gets out with little damage done and a 3rd up with 3 tanks before the 13 minute mark. note: ignore the video, it is different than the replay.
Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push.
On September 20 2011 18:01 corvaleur wrote: Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push.
Watch the replay for a little bit more fine-tuned play of it. The 9 minutes of passive play is on purpose, not only does it lead a zerg to feel safe and not produce enough units to defend the drop, it allows me not to risk any losses and get the build out as fast as possible. Safe is the name of the game here.
As far as the addons go, I prefer to keep two barracks with techlabs to produce ghost for infestors in the later game.
if u force just a few zerglings with a fake moveout at the 7.30 minute mark it can be very effective, as the zerg feels like he needs more drone after he made zerglings to defend (maybe even spines if hes bad).
well i feel dropping at two different locations could be even more powerful with proper micro and multitasking. however, if ure not into that stuff - drop the two medvacs together.
and why u gettin tanks? if u just add some hellions and go with all to elevator, u are nearly sure to do damage.
On September 20 2011 18:14 sontyp wrote: if u force just a few zerglings with a fake moveout at the 7.30 minute mark it can be very effective, as the zerg feels like he needs more drone after he made zerglings to defend (maybe even spines if hes bad).
well i feel dropping at two different locations could be even more powerful with proper micro and multitasking. however, if ure not into that stuff - drop the two medvacs together.
and why u gettin tanks? if u just add some hellions and go with all to elevator, u are nearly sure to do damage.
he explains in the vod that fake moveouts can be bad because a) sometimes the zerg isnt faked at all, and nothing happens b) the zerg was going an aggressive build and he kills ur entire army the second you "fake moveout"
as for not being able to be aggressive early game, you can try my 2rax variation that i posted a replay of, it doesnt get the 1-1 but you still get 16 stimmed marines in their base (a lil earlier actually)
and as for the hellion follow up, i actually opted to do it in the game i posted, but i do feel tanks are better =\
also, i'd just like to add, that this build sets up a very very nice +3/+3 infantry timing on 3base as well around 17 or 18mins. and we all know how rofl +3 marines can be, especially as early as 17minutes.
On September 20 2011 19:09 saaaa wrote: SeleCT uses this style very often in TvZ, but i guess that he just goes for stim and combat shield and not for bio upgrades.
The upgrades make a very big differnce. It comes out at almost the same time and can change it from doing a little dmg to winning the game. If you watch my replay I uploaded if it was not for 1-1 I would have not killed his lair.
i think the Nada TvZ openig (2 rax into 4 rax with early ebay) would fit perfect with this.
Just go for 2 Ebays instead of 1. I love this build of NaDa cause you are safe against everything the zerg can do in the early game and do enogh pressure that the zerg cannot drone up hardly.
NaDa drops 8 Marines with +1 and stim and combat at around 10min mark.
Although I understand that this build is supposed to be "safe", I feel like a really high eco baneling bust would just end you to begin with.
Don't you think that for the purpose of catching the zerg off guard and doing more damage that a reaper expand into 1-1-1 double medivacs would be better? You start stim and combat shield pretty early, skimp out on the marines, and then get the quickest double medivacs with a fast expo as possible.
You use the reaper for scouting, checking if he has a baneling nest or whatnot or is doing a roach rush, etc.
On September 20 2011 19:39 Itsmedudeman wrote: Although I understand that this build is supposed to be "safe", I feel like a really high eco baneling bust would just end you to begin with.
Don't you think that for the purpose of catching the zerg off guard and doing more damage that a reaper expand into 1-1-1 double medivacs would be better? You start stim and combat shield pretty early, skimp out on the marines, and then get the quickest double medivacs with a fast expo as possible.
You use the reaper for scouting, checking if he has a baneling nest or whatnot or is doing a roach rush, etc.
I don't think so no. If you watch the replay I posted I feel that I'm fairly safe against baneling bust with two bunkers and at the very least as safe as most standard builds. Two bunkers is fairly safe against most baneling bust and if you notice he's planning some kind of a baneling bust you can always add one more.
You don't see a Zerg this unprepared vs a Terran push, ground with siege tanks or favoring drops with medivacs, at the 10 minute mark. I will easily crank out 60+ drones and have enough to crush an incoming push with sling-bling roach / sling-bling muta. Also, at the 10 minute mark, zergs have already made an overseer and scouted you.
Thanks for the guide tho, should help plat/diamond/lowish master players.
I've been using this build quite a lot on maps with close air position to zergs. It's really effective but I've never tried it with 1-1 upgrades. Usually I have my 2 medivacs and 16 marines around ~8 mins, with combat shield halfway done and attack 1/4th done. There's been a lot of times where i drop and the spire is halfway done, so i pick it off. i'm not sure how safe this build will be if Z goes mutalisk, but this build will transition nicely into tank marine with quick 3/3 bio upgrades.
So it won't hit til atleast 9:30. I think it can work up to diamond. But in masters I have spire done by 10 minutes and will have plenty of lings to defend the drop til mutas are out to kill medivacs. Maybe I'm weird for trying to get a fast spire against terran though.
Thank you sir for posting a most commendable build! As a mid master zerg, I heartily approve any strategy which involves Terrans delaying tanks in favor of.. anything, to be honest. Like Binxy noted with his mutas, my infestors come out prior to 9:30, which is usually when a 3 tank + marine push arrives. Unfortunately, against a competent (not low master) Zerg your 16 marines will usually be greeted by either muta+ling+bane or fungal + bane (my personal favorite). But, that's no reason not to keep doing the build until you start hitting better players! Keep not making tanks gents, tanks are evil!
On September 20 2011 23:27 Boraz wrote: So it won't hit til atleast 9:30. I think it can work up to diamond. But in masters I have spire done by 10 minutes and will have plenty of lings to defend the drop til mutas are out to kill medivacs. Maybe I'm weird for trying to get a fast spire against terran though.
Overall I see how this build can work
The OP has masters replays, what makes you think it will not work there?
I'm also not sure how you plan to defend the drop with only lings if he drops them in a choke/mineral line/choke. Your mutas will not do anything if he already unloaded his marines in your base; they're only good to prevent drops from arriving. You need more than that to actually take out the marines once they are there; mutas vs 1-1 marines is a terrible fight to pick, especially that early on when you definitely don't have 16 mutas to match his marine numbers.
On September 20 2011 23:14 DustinQQ wrote: I've been using this build quite a lot on maps with close air position to zergs. It's really effective but I've never tried it with 1-1 upgrades. Usually I have my 2 medivacs and 16 marines around ~8 mins, with combat shield halfway done and attack 1/4th done. There's been a lot of times where i drop and the spire is halfway done, so i pick it off. i'm not sure how safe this build will be if Z goes mutalisk, but this build will transition nicely into tank marine with quick 3/3 bio upgrades.
if you can get a replay of a FE build that has 16marines and 2 medivacs at 8minutes, i'd be very interested in seeing it, as well as pretty much every terran pro out there lol.
On September 20 2011 20:28 Avaran wrote: You don't see a Zerg this unprepared vs a Terran push, ground with siege tanks or favoring drops with medivacs, at the 10 minute mark. I will easily crank out 60+ drones and have enough to crush an incoming push with sling-bling roach / sling-bling muta. Also, at the 10 minute mark, zergs have already made an overseer and scouted you.
Thanks for the guide tho, should help plat/diamond/lowish master players.
I think you fail to see the point. If this drop does even zero damage then you are still fine to play for the late game. If you were not greedy and built enough defenses then thats great for you and fine by this build. It's not an all in or a must do damage push by any means, you will have two bases 1-1 ups with stim and combat shield and siege tanks pumping as soon as it's ready to move out. If it can't actually do any damage 2 or so minutes later you'll have the tanks to take your 3rd and the minerals to through up tons of rax and 2 extra facts.
I would like to add similar builds have been used in the GSL though not with 1-1 upgrades at the same timings with great success, which is part of the reason I messed around with it. It's not something only platinum players do and is working well for me in masters[mid masters only of course].
This seems like a good build but I do not understand how you can think that 2 bunkers are safe against a baneling bust? In my experience not even a wall-off + 3 bunkers is safe if he really commits to the bust.
On September 21 2011 04:07 MockHamill wrote: This seems like a good build but I do not understand how you can think that 2 bunkers are safe against a baneling bust? In my experience not even a wall-off + 3 bunkers is safe if he really commits to the bust.
I said against most. If you lose to an early-game baneling bust that 3 bunkers and a wall off can not hold please upload the replay so I can adjust my build and scouting. Chances are though if you lose to a pre 9 minute baneling bust you 1. had no clue at all it was coming and didn't prepare at all or 2. you didn't micro proper [scv repairs/target banelings etc] or 3. a mixture of both. I think it's very unlikely you can lose to a baneling bust pre-9 minutes with 3 bunkers and a wall off, if not impossible.
I really love finding out new things and adjusting builds accordingly though, so if anyone has a replay of them losing pre 9:30 to a baneling bust with a wall off and 3 bunkers full of marines please upload it!
What happens if he has Hydras. Cause just placing Hydras at the main can shutdown medivacs. Just cause you have air doesn't mean everyone goes for Mutas. Like seriously 5-10 Hydras are enough to prevent the Medivacs from dropping if you plan to drop next to the mineral line.
A very interesting build. I do something similar, but with a reaper expand :p (I think it was MMA's build from the MLG he won). Might try this one out too though .
Also as some constructive criticism, when showing a build in a replay (or when doing commentary overall) having the production tab open is awesome.
EDIT: also "25 add two refinerys put 2 on each gas when finished" can seem confusing, as some builds use a total of 2 scvs in each of the two first gasses at start (Thorzain utilized that a lot in DH valencia), and I don't think that is what you are telling people to do (judging from the VoD).
The reactor on the starport is what really gave me the game. I scouted fast collos, and i got vikings out in time just to stop it while reparing bunks and only stimming the units in the bunks.
Im very happy with this build. I was also able to get units to drop. This build is VERY safe.
On September 21 2011 13:12 ContactKilla wrote: I just used this is a TvP. It saved me.
The reactor on the starport is what really gave me the game. I scouted fast collos, and i got vikings out in time just to stop it while reparing bunks and only stimming the units in the bunks.
Im very happy with this build. I was also able to get units to drop. This build is VERY safe.
From Utah? Me too! I agree though it works pretty well in TvP I don't mind it at all. I've even used it in TvT when I feel like going tank marine. It's actually surprising how 1-1 marines with combat shield and medivacs do vs hellion early-mid game. Late game tank marine just sucks though vs mech.
On September 21 2011 13:12 ContactKilla wrote: I just used this is a TvP. It saved me.
The reactor on the starport is what really gave me the game. I scouted fast collos, and i got vikings out in time just to stop it while reparing bunks and only stimming the units in the bunks.
Im very happy with this build. I was also able to get units to drop. This build is VERY safe.
From Utah? Me too! I agree though it works pretty well in TvP I don't mind it at all. I've even used it in TvT when I feel like going tank marine. It's actually surprising how 1-1 marines with combat shield and medivacs do vs hellion early-mid game. Late game tank marine just sucks though vs mech.
I don't see where he says he's from utah though, however I am also from utah. On this build i do feel it is strong however in higher masters a lot of players have roaches or traveling lings / banes just in case for this, I did try it however and it had a 50% win ratio based on 10 tvz's
On September 21 2011 13:12 ContactKilla wrote: I just used this is a TvP. It saved me.
The reactor on the starport is what really gave me the game. I scouted fast collos, and i got vikings out in time just to stop it while reparing bunks and only stimming the units in the bunks.
Im very happy with this build. I was also able to get units to drop. This build is VERY safe.
From Utah? Me too! I agree though it works pretty well in TvP I don't mind it at all. I've even used it in TvT when I feel like going tank marine. It's actually surprising how 1-1 marines with combat shield and medivacs do vs hellion early-mid game. Late game tank marine just sucks though vs mech.
I don't see where he says he's from utah though, however I am also from utah. On this build i do feel it is strong however in higher masters a lot of players have roaches or traveling lings / banes just in case for this, I did try it however and it had a 50% win ratio based on 10 tvz's
Keep in mind this is the entire point of the build. I want them to build those units, and if they have 100% defense for the drop you really shouldn't be behind and just don't lose your two drop ships full of marines pick up and leave. His sig says 801! [utah area code] so I assumed he was /
As you can see zerg was very greedy by taking early 3rd and dronning like mad. Drop arived at 11 mintues even thou it done huge damage.
But i have some conclusions: 1. This realy should be autolose to Losira style Roach-Bane-Ling 2 base all-in even with 3 Rax walloff cause beilings just destroy raxes and then Lings come to mineral line while roaches trying to break bunkers.
2. Vs 1 base beneling bust we need big wall off to defend.
3. Vs fast muta we will nor be able to drop (mostly) cause muta will be on the field at 8-30 - 9 minute mark (from 2 bases before 3rd)
4. Drop can be easely handled by zerg if he opt to go for fast infestors on 2 base - fungle+banse = dead marines even with grades.
But advantages: 1. It is almost auto-win vs fast 3rd build 2. It punishes hard greedy zerg who made lots of drones 3. It also should be very strong vs avarage muta timing (after 10 minute mark) cause marines rape mutas.
As you can see zerg was very greedy by taking early 3rd and dronning like mad. Drop arived at 11 mintues even thou it done huge damage.
But i have some conclusions: 1. This realy should be autolose to Losira style Roach-Bane-Ling 2 base all-in even with 3 Rax walloff cause beilings just destroy raxes and then Lings come to mineral line while roaches trying to break bunkers.
2. Vs 1 base beneling bust we need big wall off to defend.
3. Vs fast muta we will nor be able to drop (mostly) cause muta will be on the field at 8-30 - 9 minute mark (from 2 bases before 3rd)
4. Drop can be easely handled by zerg if he opt to go for fast infestors on 2 base - fungle+banse = dead marines even with grades.
But advantages: 1. It is almost auto-win vs fast 3rd build 2. It punishes hard greedy zerg who made lots of drones 3. It also should be very strong vs avarage muta timing (after 10 minute mark) cause marines rape mutas.
Can you show me a replay of 1. ? I've never seen any all in pre 10 minutes be able to break through 3 rax wall off with bunkers when the Terran played proper [macro, miro, etc]. If there is such a build that can do it I'd love to see it, as 90% of Terrans in masters don't wall off with 3 rax with bunkers behind it.
3. I agree if they go that fast muta they sacrifice a huge amount of economy though so you're fine, just don't drop and you are not behind[nor very ahead either, though].
and on 4. once again, if you go for two base infestors with banelings the zerg did not play greedy and you should be equal, just don't drop and lose all your units and you're fine to play from there.
It's 100% designed to force the zerg not to do the 3 base 70 drones pump and get away with no damage done to him. If he doesn't then you're equal or close to it anyways.
I like how this build sounds. Sounds like a variation of reaper FE into double medivac drop. I guess you give up the scouting/harassing opportunity of the one reaper but in return you get a much more powerful drop.
But it should be common knowledge amongst terrans that fast medivac builds are hard countered by any type of baneling bust builds (roach banes or ling banes, doesn't matter) unless you scout it and build 3+ bunkers. This build probably won't be any different in terms of vulnerability to a bust.
I don't know why some people think this build is weak vs fast mutas, it's actually very strong vs people who get very fast mutas. If you have mutas out before 10 min mark, you'll definitely be low on any other army. Two medivacs full of 1-1 marines can annihilate mutas... I don't even think 8:30 mutas is possible without cutting things unrealistically (maybe if you build 0 static defense or lings). Even 9 min mutas are very rare.
Edit: just tried it. drop landed at approx. 10:30, shakuras horizontal positions. Possible transition out of it as you drop is lift the two raxes up from the tech labs, land the factory after building a reactor & build another factory on the tech lab. build two more raxes & command center. then you have a reactored starport, 5 raxes (add more as your mineral allows obviously, but i'd recommend don't build reactors on raxes cause you need the gas for more upgrades & 2 fac tanks and medivacs), 2 factories, a 3rd coming up, 2 ebays for continuous upgrades (build armory obviously). Solid set of building infrastructure you need.
On September 21 2011 17:45 Namu wrote: I like how this build sounds. Sounds like a variation of reaper FE into double medivac drop. I guess you give up the scouting/harassing opportunity of the one reaper but in return you get a much more powerful drop.
But it should be common knowledge amongst terrans that fast medivac builds are hard countered by any type of baneling bust builds (roach banes or ling banes, doesn't matter) unless you scout it and build 3+ bunkers. This build probably won't be any different in terms of vulnerability to a bust.
I don't know why some people think this build is weak vs fast mutas, it's actually very strong vs people who get very fast mutas. If you have mutas out before 10 min mark, you'll definitely be low on any other army. Two medivacs full of 1-1 marines can annihilate mutas... I don't even think 8:30 mutas is possible without cutting things unrealistically (maybe if you build 0 static defense or lings). Even 9 min mutas are very rare.
Edit: just tried it. drop landed at approx. 10:30, shakuras horizontal positions. Possible transition out of it as you drop is lift the two raxes up from the tech labs, land the factory after building a reactor & build another factory on the tech lab. build two more raxes & command center. then you have a reactored starport, 5 raxes (add more as your mineral allows obviously, but i'd recommend don't build reactors on raxes cause you need the gas for more upgrades & 2 fac tanks and medivacs), 2 factories, a 3rd coming up, 2 ebays for continuous upgrades (build armory obviously). Solid set of building infrastructure you need.
I agree a full blown all in baneling bust takes 3 bunkers. That is part of the reason why I always start with two and if I scout anything fishy throw on a 3rd on with a few scvs ready.
Can you show me a replay of 1. ? I've never seen any all in pre 10 minutes be able to break through 3 rax wall off with bunkers when the Terran played proper [macro, miro, etc]. If there is such a build that can do it I'd love to see it, as 90% of Terrans in masters don't wall off with 3 rax with bunkers behind it.
Unfortunatly i can't, didn't saved them, but you can try to find games Jinro vs Morrow, where Jinro was trying to go Reactored straport transition after 2 Rax 2 times in a row and Morrow scouted this with OL and just go for huge 2 base Roach-Bling-Ling alling. Jinro has wall-off with 3 Rax and 2 bunkers but it was enough banelings to blow 2 Rax and kill bunkers. Push was around 10 minute mark. So Morrow wins both games with the same scenario. It wasn't even close. So i realy think that if skilled zerg will deside to bust us from 2 bases with such push, he will succeed.
Its funny reading these, "well what if he went hydras, or what if he does this, or what if he does that". On ladder, theres a good chance your opponent will go standard so theres not too much to worry about.
Plus if someone wanted to 1 base you, it will be WELL before the 10 minute mark. And you should be prepared for it.
On September 22 2011 04:00 Skygrinder wrote: I've encountered this twice and lost both times (I'm mid masters zerg).
Soooo, what is the best way to nullify it? Just ling baneling and good overlord placement?
I would skip banelings. Spend your gas on 1/1 upgrades for lings, lair, overlord speed and infestors. If you don't see any aggression from a terran by 8 minutes, you should be worried. I start blindly massing lings at about 8:30 if I don't see aggression, and it's almost never a bad decision v. terran. 40 1/1 lings will shut this down, and you can use them to deny a third after you defend the drops.
[edit] Skipping banelings is critical. A terran with 2 ebays is going to have 3/3 marines in the lategame. Ling/bling is not cost-effective against 3/3 marines, even if you have 3/3 as well. You need hive tech to deal with it, (I usually aim for ultra/ling/bling/infestor because terrans generally expect and prepare for broodlords), and the gas you spend on banelings could be spent on upgrades and tech. Lings alone are cost effective vs. marines as long as you keep even on upgrades up until the point where you both have 3/3. At that point, you need to be ready with better tech.
On September 22 2011 04:00 Skygrinder wrote: I've encountered this twice and lost both times (I'm mid masters zerg).
Soooo, what is the best way to nullify it? Just ling baneling and good overlord placement?
I would skip banelings. Spend your gas on 1/1 upgrades for lings, lair, overlord speed and infestors. If you don't see any aggression from a terran by 8 minutes, you should be worried. I start blindly massing lings at about 8:30 if I don't see aggression, and it's almost never a bad decision v. terran. 40 1/1 lings will shut this down, and you can use them to deny a third after you defend the drops.
[edit] Skipping banelings is critical. A terran with 2 ebays is going to have 3/3 marines in the lategame. Ling/bling is not cost-effective against 3/3 marines, even if you have 3/3 as well. You need hive tech to deal with it, (I usually aim for ultra/ling/bling/infestor because terrans generally expect and prepare for broodlords), and the gas you spend on banelings could be spent on upgrades and tech. Lings alone are cost effective vs. marines as long as you keep even on upgrades up until the point where you both have 3/3. At that point, you need to be ready with better tech.
As someone who has done this build more than a few times, this statement is very accurate. Banelings are not the best option. Also, I'd like to add that when I do this build, if I see they took an early 3rd, I like to send a 2nd pair of medivacs with 16 marines to their 3rd and make them choose which base they want to sacrifice. If you're multitasking is up to it, macro'ing out tanks + marines, expanding, and micro'ing 2 drops at once is extremely rewarding.
I'd like your input pwadoc (or other zergs), if you took a 3rd and your main gets dropped by 16 1-1 marines and then 30 seconds later your 3rd gets dropped by another 16 1-1 marines, is it basically GG since you took a greedy 3rd?
On September 20 2011 23:27 Boraz wrote: So it won't hit til atleast 9:30. I think it can work up to diamond. But in masters I have spire done by 10 minutes and will have plenty of lings to defend the drop til mutas are out to kill medivacs. Maybe I'm weird for trying to get a fast spire against terran though.
Overall I see how this build can work
The OP has masters replays, what makes you think it will not work there?
I'm also not sure how you plan to defend the drop with only lings if he drops them in a choke/mineral line/choke. Your mutas will not do anything if he already unloaded his marines in your base; they're only good to prevent drops from arriving. You need more than that to actually take out the marines once they are there; mutas vs 1-1 marines is a terrible fight to pick, especially that early on when you definitely don't have 16 mutas to match his marine numbers.
Right. It's called good OL spread around your base. If you see medivacs coming have your lings already in your main and he can't drop in a choke. It's also called don't make a choke with your building for them to drop in. Maybe I'm a special case but drops like this don't work against me.
On September 20 2011 23:27 Boraz wrote: So it won't hit til atleast 9:30. I think it can work up to diamond. But in masters I have spire done by 10 minutes and will have plenty of lings to defend the drop til mutas are out to kill medivacs. Maybe I'm weird for trying to get a fast spire against terran though.
Overall I see how this build can work
The OP has masters replays, what makes you think it will not work there?
I'm also not sure how you plan to defend the drop with only lings if he drops them in a choke/mineral line/choke. Your mutas will not do anything if he already unloaded his marines in your base; they're only good to prevent drops from arriving. You need more than that to actually take out the marines once they are there; mutas vs 1-1 marines is a terrible fight to pick, especially that early on when you definitely don't have 16 mutas to match his marine numbers.
Right. It's called good OL spread around your base. If you see medivacs coming have your lings already in your main and he can't drop in a choke. It's also called don't make a choke with your building for them to drop in. Maybe I'm a special case but drops like this don't work against me.
They don't have to. They just need to force you to make enough units so that they don't work. Thats the idea.
40 lings against 16 1/1 marines with stim shields? I just played a game where my drop killed 70lings and I lost one marine. Granted I was in a decent choke but even dropping at the side of the base gives you a pretty good surface area. Its not that hard to avoid OL spread until you get close enough to drop at the side of the base before lings can arrive. (I mean you will see the drop coming in time to prevent a in mineral line drop but not side of the base drop which still completely owns 40lings.
Banelings or mutas can stop this (at a cost to your muta count).
On September 20 2011 23:14 DustinQQ wrote: I've been using this build quite a lot on maps with close air position to zergs. It's really effective but I've never tried it with 1-1 upgrades. Usually I have my 2 medivacs and 16 marines around ~8 mins, with combat shield halfway done and attack 1/4th done. There's been a lot of times where i drop and the spire is halfway done, so i pick it off. i'm not sure how safe this build will be if Z goes mutalisk, but this build will transition nicely into tank marine with quick 3/3 bio upgrades.
if you can get a replay of a FE build that has 16marines and 2 medivacs at 8minutes, i'd be very interested in seeing it, as well as pretty much every terran pro out there lol.
here you go. doesnt get you 1-1 or two bunkers at natural, b/c you don't have enough units to support it after you load and leave. if you scout baneling all-in or w/e, delay starport and make bunkers at main. lift rax and wall off, etc. this is just my variation of the reactored starport, it also opens with 2 reaper. you secure your natural a bit later, but i think it's worth it for dropships a minute earlier. I feel like a zerg rushing to mutalisk would come and make the 9:30 min drops useless.
i wasn't really paying attention in the rest of the game, but i'm just showing you the build to get marines and medivacs @ ~8 (8:23) with 16 marines and stim + combatshield halfway done. 1-0 starts soon after medivacs leave base.
back on topic, this build is quite good, gets kind of sketchy if zerg rushes mutalisk because the dropships come out around 9:30.
i like this, it really punishes zerg going for a fast third because of no hellion/banshee threat. but i kinda died from really fast infestors, part of it was a problem with my splitting marines and being too *risky* with the drop, but i think even if i did split and dropped further away, his infestors would hold off rather nicely with lings/fungal. i played another game after, but i wanted to turn the zerg away from early infestors so i went with 2 rax and an earlier factory w/ reactor, so id make hellions to feint some scary hellion timing attack (even though they're nerfed, its not like lings and queens are the counter to hellions. like they *have* to do something that marines counter ) to force the zerg to create roaches or more spines. if i think he's spent a significant amount of resources in response to the hellions, ill give the reactor to the rax, and while im doing the hellion shenanigans i would have expo'd and have marine/medivac production, to follow up with a drop, which would either end the game or do some terrible, terrible damage. eh, just a thought, dont know exact timings, i just was like. hmm. ill take out a barracks and put in an earlier factory.
oh btw, when you say put 2 scvs on each geyser, does it mean +2 (making it three because of the one that built it) or have 2 in total on each geyser? lol sorry >.>
On September 22 2011 13:29 TangFish wrote: i like this, it really punishes zerg going for a fast third because of no hellion/banshee threat. but i kinda died from really fast infestors, part of it was a problem with my splitting marines and being too *risky* with the drop, but i think even if i did split and dropped further away, his infestors would hold off rather nicely with lings/fungal. i played another game after, but i wanted to turn the zerg away from early infestors so i went with 2 rax and an earlier factory w/ reactor, so id make hellions to feint some scary hellion timing attack (even though they're nerfed, its not like lings and queens are the counter to hellions. like they *have* to do something that marines counter ) to force the zerg to create roaches or more spines. if i think he's spent a significant amount of resources in response to the hellions, ill give the reactor to the rax, and while im doing the hellion shenanigans i would have expo'd and have marine/medivac production, to follow up with a drop, which would either end the game or do some terrible, terrible damage. eh, just a thought, dont know exact timings, i just was like. hmm. ill take out a barracks and put in an earlier factory.
oh btw, when you say put 2 scvs on each geyser, does it mean +2 (making it three because of the one that built it) or have 2 in total on each geyser? lol sorry >.>
Yeah I'm going to change that, I mean 3 on each geyser. Keep in mind I've said this a million times but if they build very early infestors then you've already done what you want with this build - stop them from being uber greedy and play a normal game from there!
Hey HansK, i greatly appreciate your video, just the 1-1-1 vid. I don't know your situation but i'm going to give you some feedback of how i'm experiencing the video's i've seen from you. If you feel offended and see this as negative critisism. Then keep the following in mind: I only say this because i want you to succeed, nothing less.
1)It is my believe that you should lead by example and you suggest things that you don't do in the video. -you suggest getting more marines, yet you don't do it.@3:50 -you haven't hotkeyed like you where recommend us to do.@6:00
2)I'd like to see the video more refined. Where everything goes as its supposed to go. You give us a game where you know your opponent isn't going to bust you early on. You could have at least pretended that he'd do it and wall off. So Instead of giving us an off replay where you know your opponent is isn't going to be aggresive early on. Do a more commen type of match where its more uncertain and you're playing it safer.
3)You give us excuses, macro is poor etc. I get the feeling that you have rushed your video and that seems, for a lack of better word, unprofessional to me. If that makes sense. I'd like to think that you have put at least some effort into this, but saying such stuff just takes it all away.
4) one other thing i'd like to see is the production tab. Maybe its just a personal thing but i'd love to see it at all times.
I think that you are doing something amazing and because of that id say that you shouldn't give others the opportunity to 'steal' it and take it away just because they will make it a very pleasent viewing experience for other people.
Thanks for reading because i felt an urge to express it afther watching your video's and have a great day.
On September 23 2011 06:41 Stingart wrote: Hey HansK, i greatly appreciate your video, just the 1-1-1 vid. I don't know your situation but i'm going to give you some feedback of how i'm experiencing the video's i've seen from you. If you feel offended and see this as negative critisism. Then keep the following in mind: I only say this because i want you to succeed, nothing less.
1)It is my believe that you should lead by example and you suggest things that you don't do in the video. -you suggest getting more marines, yet you don't do it.@3:50 -you haven't hotkeyed like you where recommend us to do.@6:00
2)I'd like to see the video more refined. Where everything goes as its supposed to go. You give us a game where you know your opponent isn't going to bust you early on. You could have at least pretended that he'd do it and wall off. So Instead of giving us an off replay where you know your opponent is isn't going to be aggresive early on. Do a more commen type of match where its more uncertain and you're playing it safer.
3)You give us excuses, macro is poor etc. I get the feeling that you have rushed your video and that seems, for a lack of better word, unprofessional to me. If that makes sense. I'd like to think that you have put at least some effort into this, but saying such stuff just takes it all away.
4) one other thing i'd like to see is the production tab. Maybe its just a personal thing but i'd love to see it at all times.
I think that you are doing something amazing and because of that id say that you shouldn't give others the opportunity to 'steal' it and take it away just because they will make it a very pleasent viewing experience for other people.
Thanks for reading because i felt an urge to express it afther watching your video's and have a great day.
I explain I'm aware of all of these things in the video and it's near impossible when you play one to two hours a day on the ladder to find a game where you play 'perfect' with a certain build against a certain race. The idea is to show you how to do the build, not me doing it 100% perfectly. I do agree it would be nice if I could get better footage though and that is something I'm working on. In the mean time I'm going to be uploading replays of the build being done better for people to watch and study if it's a build they want to do.
Thanks for the input and I do agree I should try and wait for better footage.
I used an adjusted version of this build, as I was worried my opponent would try some super early aggression, which he did. But I still did an alright job, and could have ended the game early quite easily in two points.
First, the initial double drop went well, but when I redropped in the main I looked away for a few seconds and lost all my marines to banelings... BAD. Could have ended the game there with any type of marine split.
Second, my first tank push I forgot siege, holy crap, haven't done that in a while... That push could have ended the game.
Last note I want to add... wow did my scv production suck, almost lost me the game >_< better work on that...
Anyway, for anyone looking for a replay as to what it looks like when you catch a zerg who took a greedy 3rd, this is how you punish him
On September 20 2011 23:14 DustinQQ wrote: I've been using this build quite a lot on maps with close air position to zergs. It's really effective but I've never tried it with 1-1 upgrades. Usually I have my 2 medivacs and 16 marines around ~8 mins, with combat shield halfway done and attack 1/4th done. There's been a lot of times where i drop and the spire is halfway done, so i pick it off. i'm not sure how safe this build will be if Z goes mutalisk, but this build will transition nicely into tank marine with quick 3/3 bio upgrades.
if you can get a replay of a FE build that has 16marines and 2 medivacs at 8minutes, i'd be very interested in seeing it, as well as pretty much every terran pro out there lol.
here you go. doesnt get you 1-1 or two bunkers at natural, b/c you don't have enough units to support it after you load and leave. if you scout baneling all-in or w/e, delay starport and make bunkers at main. lift rax and wall off, etc. this is just my variation of the reactored starport, it also opens with 2 reaper. you secure your natural a bit later, but i think it's worth it for dropships a minute earlier. I feel like a zerg rushing to mutalisk would come and make the 9:30 min drops useless.
i wasn't really paying attention in the rest of the game, but i'm just showing you the build to get marines and medivacs @ ~8 (8:23) with 16 marines and stim + combatshield halfway done. 1-0 starts soon after medivacs leave base.
back on topic, this build is quite good, gets kind of sketchy if zerg rushes mutalisk because the dropships come out around 9:30.
/dislike
you have EXACTLY 16marines and 2 medivacs at 8:30, with +1 not even close : your replay also may as well have been against a computer, then we wouldnt have had to witness the silly base trade scenario you put yourself into (against a platinum zerg? and you're masters?)
Hi Hansk, I have also been having trouble with early infestors (read: getting owned). So from the thread as I understand it you would suggest basically just don't do the drop and take a fast 3rd? The problem for me is sometimes its hard to find out that he has infestors before you execute the drop, specially since I typically don't want to burn more then 1 scan.
On September 23 2011 07:35 statikg wrote: Hi Hansk, I have also been having trouble with early infestors (read: getting owned). So from the thread as I understand it you would suggest basically just don't do the drop and take a fast 3rd? The problem for me is sometimes its hard to find out that he has infestors before you execute the drop, specially since I typically don't want to burn more then 1 scan.
Yea sometimes its hard to gauge exactly what the zerg has before(or as) you drop. Something I've seen a lot of pro Terrans do (SeleCT) is drop all their marines in an obscure corner of the zerg main, and then while the marines are stimmed + raping drones (or tech if he put it there), you use one of your medivacs to fly ahead and scout for additional tech, or units.
I've used this build quite a lot now. I'm 800 points diamond, and this build is beaaast. I love the early economy and upgrades. Plays right into how I like it. Tyvm for this build!
On September 22 2011 04:00 Skygrinder wrote: I've encountered this twice and lost both times (I'm mid masters zerg).
Soooo, what is the best way to nullify it? Just ling baneling and good overlord placement?
Lings alone are cost effective vs. marines as long as you keep even on upgrades up until the point where you both have 3/3. At that point, you need to be ready with better tech.
At that point, you would get adrenal glands and tehres no more upgrades for marines, so wouldnt it be better than 2/2 vs 2/2?
On September 20 2011 23:14 DustinQQ wrote: I've been using this build quite a lot on maps with close air position to zergs. It's really effective but I've never tried it with 1-1 upgrades. Usually I have my 2 medivacs and 16 marines around ~8 mins, with combat shield halfway done and attack 1/4th done. There's been a lot of times where i drop and the spire is halfway done, so i pick it off. i'm not sure how safe this build will be if Z goes mutalisk, but this build will transition nicely into tank marine with quick 3/3 bio upgrades.
if you can get a replay of a FE build that has 16marines and 2 medivacs at 8minutes, i'd be very interested in seeing it, as well as pretty much every terran pro out there lol.
here you go. doesnt get you 1-1 or two bunkers at natural, b/c you don't have enough units to support it after you load and leave. if you scout baneling all-in or w/e, delay starport and make bunkers at main. lift rax and wall off, etc. this is just my variation of the reactored starport, it also opens with 2 reaper. you secure your natural a bit later, but i think it's worth it for dropships a minute earlier. I feel like a zerg rushing to mutalisk would come and make the 9:30 min drops useless.
i wasn't really paying attention in the rest of the game, but i'm just showing you the build to get marines and medivacs @ ~8 (8:23) with 16 marines and stim + combatshield halfway done. 1-0 starts soon after medivacs leave base.
back on topic, this build is quite good, gets kind of sketchy if zerg rushes mutalisk because the dropships come out around 9:30.
/dislike
you have EXACTLY 16marines and 2 medivacs at 8:30, with +1 not even close : your replay also may as well have been against a computer, then we wouldnt have had to witness the silly base trade scenario you put yourself into (against a platinum zerg? and you're masters?)
Isn't that what you asked for? You wanted me to show you a replay of 16 marines and 2 medivacs, and here it is. I'm just putting out another variation of it, without the 1-1 and much faster, albeit more risky.
It was my friend and I was just showing the build. I was focused on the BO and not the game. You can easily scout that and build more bunkers + seige tank in the main.
isn't that what you asked for? You wanted me to show you a replay of 16 marines and 2 medivacs, and here it is. I'm just putting out another variation of it, without the 1-1 and much faster, albeit more risky.
I think he meant you got them out at 8:30[instead of 8:00] 30 seconds is a very large amount of time.
Hi Hansk, I have also been having trouble with early infestors (read: getting owned). So from the thread as I understand it you would suggest basically just don't do the drop and take a fast 3rd? The problem for me is sometimes its hard to find out that he has infestors before you execute the drop, specially since I typically don't want to burn more then 1 scan.
Drop the marines in a corner of his base and zoom ahead with 1 marine stimmed to check for anything crazy. You do not want to get 16 marines and two drop ships fungaled to death or you will be majorly behind. If you think he has them ready for your drop don't drop, be glad he made his defenses and take it as an even game. The new patch nerfed infestors some so that should help.
Thanks for this build HansK - just switched to Terran and was looking for a solid base to build my TvZ on. Your build definitely does this in a safe and adaptable way. It is also a whole lot of fun to use in 2v2 and 3v3 games as well =)
On September 22 2011 04:00 Skygrinder wrote: I've encountered this twice and lost both times (I'm mid masters zerg).
Soooo, what is the best way to nullify it? Just ling baneling and good overlord placement?
Lings alone are cost effective vs. marines as long as you keep even on upgrades up until the point where you both have 3/3. At that point, you need to be ready with better tech.
At that point, you would get adrenal glands and tehres no more upgrades for marines, so wouldnt it be better than 2/2 vs 2/2?
Stim and combat shield. Actually, it's kinda cool how +1 attack, +1 carapace, stim, combat shield, adrenal glands and metabolic boost all kind of count for the same combat value. Basically, marines with any number of these upgrades against zerglings with an equal number of upgrades should be reasonably close, favoring the marines when you start dealing with > 30 supply armies.
However, 3/3 stim, medevac, combat shield marines >>>>>> 3/3 adrenal metabolic zerglings. Medevacs; the marine's ultimate upgrade.
This build is okay. The problem is that this build does not punish s fast 3rd. Since the Terran is stuck in his base until almost 10 minutes, the Zerg should already be on 3 bases. If the drop doesn't do damage, the Zerg is pretty far ahead as long as he doesn't screw up. While this is a good platform for the late game, since you leave the Zerg unmolested for ~10 minutes, your drop MUST do damage. The Zerg will probably be on 3 saturated bases by the time you drop, and probably take a fourth after. I mean this 1 rax expand does set you up for the late game, but since you have no harassing or aggressive options, the Zerg should just fly ahead no matter how hard you macro.
Tldr; leaving Zerg unmolested for 10 minutes is bad, this build needs just something to put pressure on.
as gold terran of eu serv currently i'm trying 1-1-1 8marines drop with 3-4 helions to harss and as for midgame I add TL on rax and fact for Stim and Siege Tanks putting CC and adding 3 more raxes with double e-bays.
my drop timing is not very punktual but till that time i haven't been attacked by zerg (probably coz i've played not much games)
with this drop i'm able to scout his buildings + i force him to make spine and spore crawlers thus less drones even without drop's dronekills
so in result of my drop&helions ride zerg is behind in mining time and if i'm good enough with micro in drones count
If i'm not mistake goody is doing such staff and some guys from gsl
I think it's better choise than wait till 10 minutes to drop zerg
i dont do this exact build but i do the 2 medivac drop alot on ladder. its really good if vs greedy zergs and it is timed to kill the third, if thats what you're going for. you can also hit the main or nat bcz they will prob he powering drones if they dont see it coming.
as for the questions about early attacks. its all about scouting and reacting. against zerg u should bunker ur natural anyway and before any roach push. 1 bunker with some repair should hold off the standard early 6-7 roach pushes. really good build/guide, had alot of success on ladder.
ps. a tip to where u drop, if u get lucky and zerg positioning his buildings in a way that u can abuse to decrease the surface area on the marine ball, drop there. or behind the minerals, as that spot is really cost efficient to fight lings from.
On September 24 2011 00:44 DoctorFunk wrote: This build is okay. The problem is that this build does not punish s fast 3rd. Since the Terran is stuck in his base until almost 10 minutes, the Zerg should already be on 3 bases. If the drop doesn't do damage, the Zerg is pretty far ahead as long as he doesn't screw up. While this is a good platform for the late game, since you leave the Zerg unmolested for ~10 minutes, your drop MUST do damage. The Zerg will probably be on 3 saturated bases by the time you drop, and probably take a fourth after. I mean this 1 rax expand does set you up for the late game, but since you have no harassing or aggressive options, the Zerg should just fly ahead no matter how hard you macro.
Tldr; leaving Zerg unmolested for 10 minutes is bad, this build needs just something to put pressure on.
If the zerg is 100% saturated on 3 bases by the time this drop hits [10:00] then they have been doing nothing but pump drones and your drop will do damage. If not you will have saturation on two bases with a 3rd going up + mules.
there is a lot better opener than this using the 1 rax reaper xpand that transitions into this build u dont get the +1/+1 but you have 16 marine drop with stim and combat shield and its quicker i believe. I really like the ability to get the reaper out and scout and do some early harrass too.
On September 24 2011 07:59 SummerZerg wrote: there is a lot better opener than this using the 1 rax reaper xpand that transitions into this build u dont get the +1/+1 but you have 16 marine drop with stim and combat shield and its quicker i believe. I really like the ability to get the reaper out and scout and do some early harrass too.
Please if you're going to post 'better' builds show replays, explain the reasons in detail why it's better and so forth. The 1-1 makes marines much stronger and sets you up for great late game upgrades.
there's another build that select does that's pretty similiar. except he gets a factory with his first 100 gas. at 8:15 he has 16 rines (and i think almost 8 for bunkers) and 2 medivacs with stim ready to go. so it's about a minute and 15 secs faster than your build sacrificing combat shield and 1/1. which do you think is better and why?
On September 22 2011 10:43 statikg wrote: 40 lings against 16 1/1 marines with stim shields? I just played a game where my drop killed 70lings and I lost one marine. Granted I was in a decent choke but even dropping at the side of the base gives you a pretty good surface area. Its not that hard to avoid OL spread until you get close enough to drop at the side of the base before lings can arrive. (I mean you will see the drop coming in time to prevent a in mineral line drop but not side of the base drop which still completely owns 40lings.
Banelings or mutas can stop this (at a cost to your muta count).
I think you're overestimating the strength of marines. The only way 16 marines will kill 70 lings is if the zerg engages in a bad position with inferior upgrades and the zerg fails to scout at all. The general rule is that an equal mineral value of lings, with equal upgrades, will defeat marines with several lings remaining. This works for any size marine ball.
re: double drops on an early third. This is probably a good tactic, though it will get shut down pretty hard if the zerg gets spines and a spore crawler (which I always do at my third). You also pretty much have to take out the hatch. The zerg can re-saturate that hatch or run the drones away otherwise.
I have a question, I deal with drops very well (1 at a time that is) especially a drop that happens at the 11 minute mark... What I am wondering is how do you not auto-lose if you do 0 damage with your drop? You VOD kind of shows like a "lol the zerg is bad" scenario. What would happen against a zerg who actually has +1/+1 himself or infestors or mutalisk or half the decency to scout the drop and pre-move his lings?
On September 25 2011 16:15 Kornholi0 wrote: I have a question, I deal with drops very well (1 at a time that is) especially a drop that happens at the 11 minute mark... What I am wondering is how do you not auto-lose if you do 0 damage with your drop? You VOD kind of shows like a "lol the zerg is bad" scenario. What would happen against a zerg who actually has +1/+1 himself or infestors or mutalisk or half the decency to scout the drop and pre-move his lings?
On September 25 2011 16:15 Kornholi0 wrote: I have a question, I deal with drops very well (1 at a time that is) especially a drop that happens at the 11 minute mark... What I am wondering is how do you not auto-lose if you do 0 damage with your drop? You VOD kind of shows like a "lol the zerg is bad" scenario. What would happen against a zerg who actually has +1/+1 himself or infestors or mutalisk or half the decency to scout the drop and pre-move his lings?
You do lose unless the Zerg is bad
You don't. If a zerg has 1/1 upgrades and infestors or mutas out at the 10 minute mark and enough units to hold the drop easily it means he's not on 3 bases with 70 drones, which means you are on 2 fully saturated bases and almost ready to take your third. How do you end up so far behind?
It's not really some crazy all-in, it's a well known way to play TvZ by many pros and I just incorporated 1-1 upgrades into it and stim and combat shield.
Really the only thing you lose vs standard play is like 2 tanks but you have 1-1 upgrades and early medivacs in place.
A zerg who rushes mutas will have them out at 10.30... and your drop will fail. Moreover there is no early game pressure (wich is suicide against a good zerg). Also it loses hardcore vs bling bust and roach/ling all in (unless you wall off with triple rax).
On September 26 2011 02:15 ganil wrote: I watched it. I don't think it's good.
A zerg who rushes mutas will have them out at 10.30... and your drop will fail. Moreover there is no early game pressure (wich is suicide against a good zerg). Also it loses hardcore vs bling bust and roach/ling all in (unless you wall off with triple rax).
This build is amazing vs mutas... actually probably much better than standard play. I don't know about the roach/ling/bling all in, I'd need to see a replay of one breaking down 3 bunkers and 2 ebays behind them with proper micro pre 10 minutes to see if it is a auto win.
I've been doing this style for a while and I did your opening just to see how it goes. I did some variations but it's overall the same thing. Here you go, Me vs Vilehawk: http://drop.sc/37639. Pay close attention to the drops and what i do with squads of marines (tumors, ovies). It's always important to clear ovies in airways to their base so they cant see the drop coming . PM for questions
I've tried this a few times with mixed success. It does tend to punish ultra greedy fast 3rds, and good positioning behind mineral lines can wreck large numbers of lings, but good overlord placement totally shuts this down. By the time you get a viking out to clear a drop path the spire is on the way and against players with good control on their muta/queen/ling, the level risk involved goes against the ethos of the build altogether.
Also, if I'm zerg and I see a single viking killing my overlords, my first instinct is to prepare for drops. Not to mention that eco based bling busts hit before you move out and will at best put you even with the zerg.
Build works really fine for me at lower levels, most players can't handle the multitasking and forget to every attack me the whole game. Thanks for posting this
On September 26 2011 02:15 ganil wrote: I watched it. I don't think it's good.
A zerg who rushes mutas will have them out at 10.30... and your drop will fail. Moreover there is no early game pressure (wich is suicide against a good zerg). Also it loses hardcore vs bling bust and roach/ling all in (unless you wall off with triple rax).
This build is amazing vs mutas... actually probably much better than standard play. I don't know about the roach/ling/bling all in, I'd need to see a replay of one breaking down 3 bunkers and 2 ebays behind them with proper micro pre 10 minutes to see if it is a auto win.
I've used this plenty of times, some times I've demolished the Zerg with my drop and outright won there. However, some zergs I've played that scouted well and responded well came out ahead. Each time I lost, Zerg had their third up and banes and lings waiting for my drop. If the Zerg has simcitied their main in a way where marines can be protected, it can be an auto win. I'll look for the replays where I lost to a quick third.
On September 26 2011 02:15 ganil wrote: I watched it. I don't think it's good.
A zerg who rushes mutas will have them out at 10.30... and your drop will fail. Moreover there is no early game pressure (wich is suicide against a good zerg). Also it loses hardcore vs bling bust and roach/ling all in (unless you wall off with triple rax).
This build is amazing vs mutas... actually probably much better than standard play. I don't know about the roach/ling/bling all in, I'd need to see a replay of one breaking down 3 bunkers and 2 ebays behind them with proper micro pre 10 minutes to see if it is a auto win.
I've used this plenty of times, some times I've demolished the Zerg with my drop and outright won there. However, some zergs I've played that scouted well and responded well came out ahead. Each time I lost, Zerg had their third up and banes and lings waiting for my drop. If the Zerg has simcitied their main in a way where marines can be protected, it can be an auto win. I'll look for the replays where I lost to a quick third.
If they have enough zerglings/banelings to defend two drops at separate locations or one location with all marines with proper micro, and 3 bases fully saturated, and also some how cause you to lose every unit on your drop, I'd love to see the replay.
From my experiences if you're allowed to get up to the drop one of two things happen: They are on two bases and have a good amount of units and you can do a light harass but not commit to it the majority of time. How ever you should also have two bases well saturated and the resources and infrastructure to set up your third to match his 3rd closely.
The other thing that happens is they have a 3rd base but no drones or very little drones there, and a decent amount of units. In this case they normally take some losses with some multi-pronged harass possibly even losing a hatchery or take large drone or unit losses. In this case you are both even too, it seems.[or you're ahead depending on the damage you were able to do]
Then of course there is the option I did not include which it out-right kills them because this should only be the case if they droned all 3 bases fully with extractors and didn't build units because they didn't think you were coming as they didn't scout you pushing out, this or something close to this happens very often and you do major major damage or kill them.
On September 26 2011 10:06 -Illusion- wrote: I've been doing this style for a while and I did your opening just to see how it goes. I did some variations but it's overall the same thing. Here you go, Me vs Vilehawk: http://drop.sc/37639. Pay close attention to the drops and what i do with squads of marines (tumors, ovies). It's always important to clear ovies in airways to their base so they cant see the drop coming . PM for questions
3-3 marines at 18mins is super sick. Illusion also does a great job of showing how it's important to be persistent and aggressive with your drops, as well as how to defend with minimal units with proper sim city.
On September 26 2011 10:06 -Illusion- wrote: I've been doing this style for a while and I did your opening just to see how it goes. I did some variations but it's overall the same thing. Here you go, Me vs Vilehawk: http://drop.sc/37639. Pay close attention to the drops and what i do with squads of marines (tumors, ovies). It's always important to clear ovies in airways to their base so they cant see the drop coming . PM for questions
3-3 marines at 18mins is super sick. Illusion also does a great job of showing how it's important to be persistent and aggressive with your drops, as well as how to defend with minimal units with proper sim city.
The zerg can easily hold this with a handful of marines by scouting with overlords and pulling lings to the base. They swarm the marines 1 by 1 while they drop out of the medivacs (since the medivacs cant heal while unloading)
Sounds a bit dodgy in the opening. What do you do if zerg all-ins? Not to be overly critical but the example vod is pretty useless alltogether. Even a single dropship with 0-0 would have done huge damage.
Safer (reaper expand), and just as fast drops (same consept of the build except 1-0 and alot safer) But guess your build is safe if you scan, I understand that you knew your opponent, but anyway, kinda scary just to base everything on your previous games against him, and not to good of a showcase for the build.
theres this very popular oppener among the korean pros where, for example, you open with a 2 rax on shakuras(partial wall of for yer natural) into early expo with fast double dropship stim and 16 marines. its very similar and works really well. i think yer strat has potentional but it lacks the early harass it should and could have.
On September 29 2011 21:36 Marooned wrote: Sounds a bit dodgy in the opening. What do you do if zerg all-ins? Not to be overly critical but the example vod is pretty useless alltogether. Even a single dropship with 0-0 would have done huge damage.
Safer (reaper expand), and just as fast drops (same consept of the build except 1-0 and alot safer) But guess your build is safe if you scan, I understand that you knew your opponent, but anyway, kinda scary just to base everything on your previous games against him, and not to good of a showcase for the build.
I can't make a VOD for every possible situation. The vod was intended to show what it does if you catch the zerg off guard in a ideal situation, not it doing little to no damage and playing a long standard macro game from there.
I uploaded better replays of me and another higher level player than me playing. As for the no early game pressure there is almost none that exist that does more then force 5-6 lings or a few seconds of drone pulls[bunker rush] that doesn't have any big risk to it and still gets the 1-1- drop out some what fast. That I know of, that is, if there is one please upload a replay of a 1-1 16 marine drop with two bunkers full of marines that does a big early pressure before that with little to no risk and still comes around 9:30 so I can steal the build, always looking to improve builds.
Keep in mind the entire reason I get 1-1 upgrades is to set up for the late game, not own him in a single drop.
On September 29 2011 21:36 Marooned wrote: Sounds a bit dodgy in the opening. What do you do if zerg all-ins? Not to be overly critical but the example vod is pretty useless alltogether. Even a single dropship with 0-0 would have done huge damage.
Safer (reaper expand), and just as fast drops (same consept of the build except 1-0 and alot safer) But guess your build is safe if you scan, I understand that you knew your opponent, but anyway, kinda scary just to base everything on your previous games against him, and not to good of a showcase for the build.
I have a few replays of people trying to all-in me with the build. I'll scrap em up and upload them for you once I get back on computer
On September 29 2011 21:36 Marooned wrote: Sounds a bit dodgy in the opening. What do you do if zerg all-ins? Not to be overly critical but the example vod is pretty useless alltogether. Even a single dropship with 0-0 would have done huge damage.
Safer (reaper expand), and just as fast drops (same consept of the build except 1-0 and alot safer) But guess your build is safe if you scan, I understand that you knew your opponent, but anyway, kinda scary just to base everything on your previous games against him, and not to good of a showcase for the build.
I finally got on the comp, here it is for you http://drop.sc/39094 Me vs tQDrone PM me if you got any questions or just reply here
I cant upload a replay right now only a VOD of a recent TvZ.
Like said earlier, the most important thing is being extremelly annoying with drops. I felt like I hurt his economy enough and also sniped his Spire thanks to a little multi tasking. The Zerg could never really get more than 2 bases Mining.
I liked this build initially, but ive found it doesn't work most of the time. the only time you get ahead from it is if the drop does a ton of damage - which is hard because most zergs by the 10 minute mark WILL have units even if you fast expo, and they just swarm your units as they unload.. theyll have a few mutas too so you lose 16 marines and a drop ship + later siege tech and the zerg has 3 full droned bases.
I practiced this build a bit (vs. AI) and i had some trouble with the finetuning of this build. It seems, that if i go 21 2x rax 23 2x gas, i am a bit short on gas and cant afford the upgrades as early, that they finish when i drop their base (about 10:15ish). 21 2x Gas 23 2x Rax works better but cuts in that early marines - is this a huge problem? I didnt tried this build on ladder yet (im also just Plat EU).
On October 03 2011 14:05 necrOtix wrote: I liked this build initially, but ive found it doesn't work most of the time. the only time you get ahead from it is if the drop does a ton of damage - which is hard because most zergs by the 10 minute mark WILL have units even if you fast expo, and they just swarm your units as they unload.. theyll have a few mutas too so you lose 16 marines and a drop ship + later siege tech and the zerg has 3 full droned bases.
You are missing an integral part of the strategy and thus the matchup. You don't just drop into anything, you drop if the way is clear, if there is anything sitting there waiting for you other then a queen and maybe 1 spine tops, you abort the drop and maybe go drop the natural or somthing, basically just keep him off his game, if there are mutas and units, immediately go drop beside the side of the base so you don't lose everything.
When a million zerglings swarm your marines, even if you are up against a wall, thats not good enough, shoot the lings, but once they are up against your marines, pick up and leave. You need an amazing choke to beat 30+ lings with just marines, like being stuck behind a mineral line with a spawning pool to your back amazing. Being up against the side of the main just isnt good enough and you need to pick up and move on.
If you just trade your first 2medivacs 16 marine drop for 30lings, you are behind because you have invested so much into them. If you trade them for 5mutas and 10lings, then maybe your ok. But pretty much if you can't wedge yourself into a nice spot between zerg buildings, when you see like 30lings coming for you, you have to pick up and go somewhere else once they get the surround. By this time your next 2medivac drop should be ready so get that drop going, have the first one fall back, and when the lings go respond to your second drop, then hit them with the first drop again.
This type of multitasking and forcing the zerg to respond to you in multiple places is how to succeed in TvZ in general, but especially with this strategy do not throw your first drop away just trading with lings!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On October 03 2011 14:05 necrOtix wrote: I liked this build initially, but ive found it doesn't work most of the time. the only time you get ahead from it is if the drop does a ton of damage - which is hard because most zergs by the 10 minute mark WILL have units even if you fast expo, and they just swarm your units as they unload.. theyll have a few mutas too so you lose 16 marines and a drop ship + later siege tech and the zerg has 3 full droned bases.
That's not how the build works, you drop the units in a spot where he can't spot and thus surround your units. If he knows your drop is coming you drop on different fronts, or you don't drop at all and harass the front and pick up if he has too much. If he's fully prepared to crush your drop 100% then he hasn't been very greedy and you just go home and do not drop and you lose nothing.
You'll always lose the game if you just drop the units and let 16 marines die and 2 medivacs for nothing, this build is meant for higher level players for sure.
On October 07 2011 04:53 Unfeared wrote: Hey do you have any more replays vs 2 base baneling allins? Seems difficult to hold off with pure marines. Especially if you don't see it coming.
I don't yet all I can say is you need three bunkers and 2 ebays placed in correct position depending on the map with maybe a few marines on the high ground and make sure you target banelings.
I've never had any success with double medivac drop.
1) How do I find out where I can drop? All zerg has to do is see medivacs and they're wary of drops. You can't exactly poke around with dropships as it's pretty obvious what you're doing. Also stuff like buildings/overlords are spotters.
2) Vs lings you want a small area but the small area makes banelings more effective. So basically lings/banelings cover each other's weakesses.
3) The double drop with 1/1 upgrades is probably slower and Zerg will have tons of units/tech out already.
On October 07 2011 11:10 vnlegend wrote: I've never had any success with double medivac drop.
1) How do I find out where I can drop? All zerg has to do is see medivacs and they're wary of drops. You can't exactly poke around with dropships as it's pretty obvious what you're doing. Also stuff like buildings/overlords are spotters.
2) Vs lings you want a small area but the small area makes banelings more effective. So basically lings/banelings cover each other's weakesses.
3) The double drop with 1/1 upgrades is probably slower and Zerg will have tons of units/tech out already.
1. You need to use a scan, or drop in a random corner of their base [it's not possible to have lings at every corner of their base waiting for the drop]. If they have great defense you can split them up and start multi prong harassment.
2. If he only has a few banelings they are easily targeted down, if he has a bunch of zerglings and banelings at the time of the drop chances are very high he was not very greedy and you're in a great spot to set up for the late game. I can't stress enough as the majority of people who read this build think of it as some form of all in, but it's actually meant to force a late game situation and only end the game if they were super greedy.
3. If he has tons of units/tech out and your drops are really able to do zero damage even with ideal decision making multi tasking and micro chances are very high you're even with him and you can play out a later game with amazing upgrades and infrastructure.
i wanted to thank you for this thread and strategy, finally i have fun again playing against zerg. got also promoted to masters yesterday :D
1-1 marines are really godmode, love them
i use this tactic usually only on large maps, otherwise on smaller ones i do reactor helion opening into this or 6rax pressure (if he does not die then transition into this build).
but sometimes, i just get banelingbusted with this tactic...
On October 07 2011 20:23 danteafk wrote: i wanted to thank you for this thread and strategy, finally i have fun again playing against zerg. got also promoted to masters yesterday :D
1-1 marines are really godmode, love them
i use this tactic usually only on large maps, otherwise on smaller ones i do reactor helion opening into this or 6rax pressure (if he does not die then transition into this build).
but sometimes, i just get banelingbusted with this tactic...
You have to have a lot of experience in scouting and defending baneling bust with this build. The only way to defend a full blown all in 2 base baneling bust with this build is 3 well placed bunkers with ebays in front and correct micro and positioning on your units. Doing that right every game they do a baneling bust is very hard but is possible.
Hansk, this build is really excellent. I'm only in plat but it works really well for me; been looking for a build that gets me primed for the late game from the very beginning.
If you have time, you should add this to liquipedia so that others may benefit from your wisdom!
Is there a reason to wait for 200 gas to get shields and stim at the same time? Shields takes almost a full minute less to research, so wouldn't it be best to get stim as soon as you get the first 100 gas?
I do it that way (getting stim asap), especially since it gives a little flexibility, sometimes stim finishes before combat shields and marines are more effective on the offensive. I really like this build btw, I use this very often and transition into mass marine with ravens...pretty good fun.
I used to have trouble executing this build like many people in this thread: I felt that the Zerg was able to get way ahead in tech or econ because of the lack of harass before the drop occurs. Either they would have mutas waiting for me or a bunch of ling-baneling and a third base.
However, I started doing a simple 1 rax 1 scv 2 marine pressure sometimes with bunkers. A Zerg CANNOT know if you are 1 rax FE'ing or proxy raxing, so almost every Zerg will overproduce lings or at the very least pull a bunch of drones.
Through this method, I find that I am able to come out of the early game ahead or even almost invariably, and since we all know how lack of early game drones can easily snowball, I've gone from getting my drop roflpwnd every time to dealing a ton of damage in just about every game.
I highly recommend people do early game marine pressure with this build, it more than pays for itself.
tried this today vs a 1300 master zerg and i raped him silly even though i couldnt really drop him. Just unloaded outside his natural and pushed his front, forcing him to mass lings and banes + pull drones and after that i just outmacroed him with 3 bases and had 3/3 marine at 19 mins and damn they are tough
Gold KR: Tried this build vs a Zerg going Roach Bane Ling, didn't like the early period of playing in the dark, but doing the drop meant I could 1, find his sort of hidden expo and 2, kill quite a few Drones Queens and Lings for basically no losses (just lift off and fly into corner since he didn't go Mutas), also really nice transitions are possible and for very strong timing attacks.
Watched Illusion's reps, gotta say his transition into immediate 2-2 and superfast 3-3 with a strong backbone of Tanks is really, really smooth, and his early pressure with 8 or so Marines is quite good (although that might kill my macro at home haha)
I've been having great success with this build but today I lost horribly to a 2 base baneling bust. It was on Xel'Naga Caverns so the natural is very difficult to hold before tanks are out. Anyone have any tips for making it work in this situation?
On November 02 2011 12:04 MysteryHours wrote: I've been having great success with this build but today I lost horribly to a 2 base baneling bust. It was on Xel'Naga Caverns so the natural is very difficult to hold before tanks are out. Anyone have any tips for making it work in this situation?
If the bust comes before the drop timing, scouting it beforehand and throwing down additional bunkers should do it. In the worst situation you'll have to lift off your natural, but I doubt he'll have enough banelings left to destroy the walloff on the ramp since he'll use the them on the bunkers instead. If he did make that many banelings, the zergling numbers should be low enough that you can pull off workers to hold and still be reasonably alright economically.
It hasn't happened to me yet though, given that most Zergs tech straight to mutalisks and take a third when they feel zero pressure.
Thanks for sharing this build by the way, it definitely deserves more attention.
On November 02 2011 12:04 MysteryHours wrote: I've been having great success with this build but today I lost horribly to a 2 base baneling bust. It was on Xel'Naga Caverns so the natural is very difficult to hold before tanks are out. Anyone have any tips for making it work in this situation?
If the bust comes before the drop timing, scouting it beforehand and throwing down additional bunkers should do it. In the worst situation you'll have to lift off your natural, but I doubt he'll have enough banelings left to destroy the walloff on the ramp since he'll use the them on the bunkers instead. If he did make that many banelings, the zergling numbers should be low enough that you can pull off workers to hold and still be reasonably alright economically.
It hasn't happened to me yet though, given that most Zergs tech straight to mutalisks and take a third when they feel zero pressure.
Thanks for sharing this build by the way, it definitely deserves more attention.
You're welcome and glad I could help some people. I'm planning on posting more guides on different cool builds one I get enough replays and details to make it worth it.
Really like this build so far, only played one game with it (using Illusion's variation) but it felt really nice and it fully encompasses the main aspects of my game I am trying to work on (earlier upgrades, macro games, more effective harassment).
Going to be using this build pretty much every game. Haven't tried it in TvP and TvT, but I'm interested in how it will work because it still sets you up for late game tech in both matchups. Having tech-labs on rax gives you marauders/ghosts, and reactor starport gives you vikings for TvP, and mass marines for TvT, with the infrastructure to do a tech switch.
I actually have a better variant of this build that goes for 1/1, shields and stim but there is no need for medivacs or factory.
Just a ton of marines with patrol back micro and splitting is enough to beat gm, rank 1 master zergs even with banelings. The only good counter to this build is the roach ling all in, which can be negated if I land 1-2 bunkers in front of my rax block after opening reaper FE. So handsome
dude wtf i like made this build up but its slightly different. same 1rax expo into 3rax double gas, but im crazy and use my first 200 gas for 1 1 but only my stim finishes for the drop. Also in ur build do u get 2 2 right when 1 1 finishes, because in my version i have it mapped out where u do the drop and u can take ur third at the same time (10:00) and right when 1 1 finishes i have the armory done and start 2 2 and plus 1 attack on mech. After the first 2 medivacs i start tanks and siege mode and play standard and even if zerg goes for fast upgrades vs me i outupgrade them and if they dont then they are screwed. if anyone wishes to see a BO for my build, then PM me, but there isnt anything wrong with usinge OP build, its still good.
I love this build so much, my win rate versus top diamond low masters zerg's has gone up to about 70%+. I find that it's a little hard to get the 1-1 upgrade but even without that upgrade I still do a ton of damage. It seems the only way zerg holds this drop off is if he has banelings prepared or a decent amount of lings. You can simply back up into a corner and take out most lings if he doesn't back off. I usually hit them right before Mutalisk's come out, which is great cause my damage delays it so much that they become useless, and it opens you up to a huge timing push after the drop. Amazing build!!! *thumps up*
P.S. Let's let this thread die so this stays a secret
On November 03 2011 04:51 iZenn wrote: I love this build so much, my win rate versus top diamond low masters zerg's has gone up to about 70%+. I find that it's a little hard to get the 1-1 upgrade but even without that upgrade I still do a ton of damage. It seems the only way zerg holds this drop off is if he has banelings prepared or a decent amount of lings. You can simply back up into a corner and take out most lings if he doesn't back off. I usually hit them right before Mutalisk's come out, which is great cause my damage delays it so much that they become useless, and it opens you up to a huge timing push after the drop. Amazing build!!! *thumps up*
P.S. Let's let this thread die so this stays a secret
On smaller maps or closer air spawns, I stop marine production for a second as the factory goes up to get the engineering bays down faster. It should help the 1/1 complete faster, and you'll still have enough marines to man the bunkers. On cross spawns I've found that I produced a bit more than 2 bunkers + 2 medivacs worth of marines and still had the upgrades complete, so no rush in that situation.
The drop can also be held by roaches. However, you can simply pick up and drop his natural or third--roaches can't keep up.
Can't emphasize enough on how amazing the timing is. Feels so good when you see mutas hatch right as your marines drop in his main, since he has to use them to defend the base instead of harassing with them. Zerg wastes resources in unupgraded mutas, terrible against 1/1 marines with medivac support. Most of the time you end up killing the spire and/or the pool. Sometimes I've had games the pool was sniped before the opponent's injects popped, instantly winning due to Zerg not being able to make anything but mutas.
On November 03 2011 02:08 zmansman17 wrote: I actually have a better variant of this build that goes for 1/1, shields and stim but there is no need for medivacs or factory.
Just a ton of marines with patrol back micro and splitting is enough to beat gm, rank 1 master zergs even with banelings. The only good counter to this build is the roach ling all in, which can be negated if I land 1-2 bunkers in front of my rax block after opening reaper FE. So handsome
On November 08 2011 03:06 BECOKA wrote: Great build, I do a lot of early damage but still fail to late game Infestors. Even with 3/3 upgrades. :-(
Guess I still need to work on micro or just get more tanks.
Ghost are essential vs any hive tech, in fact if you see hive on it's way or done start getting ghost. It's great vs infestors, brood lords, and ultras. Once you get enough[10+] it's border line too strong even against hive tech.
On November 08 2011 03:06 BECOKA wrote: Great build, I do a lot of early damage but still fail to late game Infestors. Even with 3/3 upgrades. :-(
Guess I still need to work on micro or just get more tanks.
Ghost are essential vs any hive tech, in fact if you see hive on it's way or done start getting ghost. It's great vs infestors, brood lords, and ultras. Once you get enough[10+] it's border line too strong even against hive tech.
Thanks,
I've been meaning to try Ghosts against Infestors but always forget to get them. I'm just now really starting to use them against Protoss with a lot of success.
I'm going to hate it when they nerf the EMP radius. :-(
Now I just have to remember to get the Acadamy when I first sniff the use of them.
Is anyone doing this build actually able to get their medivacs to pop at 9:30? The best I've ever done is 10:10, but my macro isn't great. -Illusion- starts his CC at his natural and skips the 2 early bunkers and his medivacs still don't pop until 9:50.
The build has been pretty solid for me, the only thing I don't like is I can't get a read on what Zerg's up to until the drop actually happens. Using an early scan to scout feels really wasteful as the build is mineral starved early on. Also, you have zero map control before the drop.
On November 13 2011 12:01 MysteryHours wrote: Is anyone doing this build actually able to get their medivacs to pop at 9:30? The best I've ever done is 10:10, but my macro isn't great. -Illusion- starts his CC at his natural and skips the 2 early bunkers and his medivacs still don't pop until 9:50.
The build has been pretty solid for me, the only thing I don't like is I can't get a read on what Zerg's up to until the drop actually happens. Using an early scan to scout feels really wasteful as the build is mineral starved early on. Also, you have zero map control before the drop.
You will get your medivacs sooner if you take sooner gasses. I take my gasses a bit later (the 3rd and 4th) so I can take my 3rd faster. Atleast I think I did, don't remember the replay games too clearly !
On November 13 2011 13:46 jjhchsc2 wrote: WHY DIDNT I FIND THIS GUIDE BEFORE!!! Wow this sounds like a great setup for the mid game push.
One question- Should you move out like around 7 mins to force a little bit of lings or clear creep tumors? like normally.
It depends, it's probably fine to move out a little bit but of course never commit. The reason I'm sort of scared to do it as some zergs make a bunch of lings early on and will randomly surround all your marines when you do that and you sorta lose your entire 1-1 drop timing from there.
I feel that this build deserves some attention because its really awesome, and it has a lot of potential. having reading this build and trying it for the first time I managed to pound the zerg opponent - it allowed me to be the aggressor while having excellent macro. great job OP
Ive noticed while I was playing with this build is that its pretty weak to lings blings semi-all ins. I believe better walls and simcity will be a solution. Will play more with this build and see what happens.
On November 14 2011 07:34 KrSuma wrote: Ive noticed while I was playing with this build is that its pretty weak to lings blings semi-all ins. I believe better walls and simcity will be a solution. Will play more with this build and see what happens.
I think some one posted some replays of how to beat all-in's with this build some where, but it really comes down to bunkers ebays and supply depots with well positioned and microd marines to hold them off.
You say that you've played all races to gain an understanding of them. How would you personally deal with this type of drop harass as zerg ofc? I was being dropped in a similiar manner and was at a complete loss. (How would you deal with drops as Zerg in general?)
On November 18 2011 03:02 Host- wrote: You say that you've played all races to gain an understanding of them. How would you personally deal with this type of drop harass as zerg ofc? I was being dropped in a similiar manner and was at a complete loss. (How would you deal with drops as Zerg in general?)
It depends on what build you're going. The simple answer is to have units at the 10:30 mark though. As zerg I highly prefer muta ling bling so I deal with the drops with just banelings and queen targeting medi-vacs until few mutas come out. It's annoying but if you micro properly you should not take much damage
On November 20 2011 06:50 deathtrance wrote: So what happens if the greedy zerg gets a spire up at 9 minutes and snipes your drop?
You made a mistake. To get a spire up that early you really have to sacrifice a lot, and if you fly two medivacs full of 1-1 stim combat shield marines into a pack of mutas and just let them die you will be behind. The thing is you don't do that and you either use a scan for the spire, or as soon as you see mutas instantly drop marines.
The only way you lose them all if you use no scans and shift click drop to his base and look away from the screen and he happens to have his mutas directly where your drop ship is.
these dropps are very powerfull! as zerg if your not prepared and maybe even have no banes u can just loose against something like that if the terran has his units in good spots
Well, back with another quick Q: Is there a time before the drop where you can pressure the zerg beforehand? What would be the timing of a small poke/push?
On November 20 2011 10:19 deathtrance wrote: Well, back with another quick Q: Is there a time before the drop where you can pressure the zerg beforehand? What would be the timing of a small poke/push?
There is never a safe timing to push out after 2-3 marines. You are always at risk of losing all your marines to speedlings after 5-6minutes. In this build there is no way you can get enough marines to be guaranteed damage with marines. You alwys risk getting beat by a large group of speedlings, or even worse if you meet a baneling bust in the field (which 1rax FE attracts)
On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote: In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute.
It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all..
About early mutas: I encountered them once. Like, 10 minutes mass mutalisks. I figured "Oh yeah? then you won't have many banelings. ALL IIIIIIIIIIIIN"
And the Zerg got crushed. If he goes early mass mutas, just take everything and go fucking kill him!
This build was used against me by ST_Rainbow, but he made a few adjustments to it. I think his build is better because he gets mapcontrol early on and he's safe against any baneling-bust or speedling all-in.
What about banelings? I usually easily counter these shenanigans by spotting the medivacs coming with spread out Overlords. I then bring some banelings and zerglings up (about five banelings with speed) and I totally shut down this drop. Is there a good counter to this? I can imagine people doing multiprong attacks with the medivacs to separate the banelings but other than that it seems like banelings (a staple in zvt) would just shut this down.
On November 21 2011 06:42 Lebzetu wrote: What about banelings? I usually easily counter these shenanigans by spotting the medivacs coming with spread out Overlords. I then bring some banelings and zerglings up (about five banelings with speed) and I totally shut down this drop. Is there a good counter to this? I can imagine people doing multiprong attacks with the medivacs to separate the banelings but other than that it seems like banelings (a staple in zvt) would just shut this down.
Don't drop the Zerg at all if lings are all over the mineral line--Terran isn't behind, since you made an excessive amount of lings to prepare to begin with. Drops can still work regardless, if the Zerg's building placement allows it. If you have banelings positioned in the mineral line already, you'd have to pay attention to not have two detonate on a single marine. Also, investing gas into baneling speed and banelings will reduce muta count, which is nice for the Terran.
On November 21 2011 06:42 Lebzetu wrote: What about banelings? I usually easily counter these shenanigans by spotting the medivacs coming with spread out Overlords. I then bring some banelings and zerglings up (about five banelings with speed) and I totally shut down this drop. Is there a good counter to this? I can imagine people doing multiprong attacks with the medivacs to separate the banelings but other than that it seems like banelings (a staple in zvt) would just shut this down.
Banelings are in fact the best counter to this build, however, many don't have them premade or even a baneling nest necessarily.
On November 21 2011 06:42 Lebzetu wrote: What about banelings? I usually easily counter these shenanigans by spotting the medivacs coming with spread out Overlords. I then bring some banelings and zerglings up (about five banelings with speed) and I totally shut down this drop. Is there a good counter to this? I can imagine people doing multiprong attacks with the medivacs to separate the banelings but other than that it seems like banelings (a staple in zvt) would just shut this down.
Banelings are in fact the best counter to this build, however, many don't have them premade or even a baneling nest necessarily.
Well smart zergs get a baneling nest at 20/80 lair and instant baneling speed. That way, they can deal with pushes soooo much easier.
On November 21 2011 06:42 Lebzetu wrote: What about banelings? I usually easily counter these shenanigans by spotting the medivacs coming with spread out Overlords. I then bring some banelings and zerglings up (about five banelings with speed) and I totally shut down this drop. Is there a good counter to this? I can imagine people doing multiprong attacks with the medivacs to separate the banelings but other than that it seems like banelings (a staple in zvt) would just shut this down.
Banelings are in fact the best counter to this build, however, many don't have them premade or even a baneling nest necessarily.
Well smart zergs get a baneling nest at 20/80 lair and instant baneling speed. That way, they can deal with pushes soooo much easier.
I'm aware of general timings, it doesn't mean they'll be prepared for the drop. If you don't see it coming (aka they end up going on a path that isn't near your ovies, or they simply land before your lings get to them) then it can still do tons of damage, picking off units then picking up into the medivac when the slow banes arrive.
On November 20 2011 21:13 SukKkeltjE wrote: This build was used against me by ST_Rainbow, but he made a few adjustments to it. I think his build is better because he gets mapcontrol early on and he's safe against any baneling-bust or speedling all-in.
For anyone wondering this is a reactor hellion expand into 16 marine drop w/ stim. The drop comes earlier but without combat shields or 1-1. Looks solid, but I don't know how this is supposed to be any better against baneling/speedling all-ins compared to the OPs build.
only problem i have is this seems like it would die to a baneling bust as well as the fact that the you dont pressure the zerg at all.
but depending on how well your marine control and splitting is this could be a very good build in some cases.
i prob wont use it much simply becaus im in bronze and try to go bio ball for my tvz ( i play for fun and i just enjoy bio more against zergs even though its weak and hard to control.)
On November 21 2011 12:38 karis wrote: only problem i have is this seems like it would die to a baneling bust as well as the fact that the you dont pressure the zerg at all.
but depending on how well your marine control and splitting is this could be a very good build in some cases.
i prob wont use it much simply becaus im in bronze and try to go bio ball for my tvz ( i play for fun and i just enjoy bio more against zergs even though its weak and hard to control.)
Don't know why you need to worry about dying from a baneling bust. A Zerg would opt to macro up instead. At any rate, a well timed scan or preemptive bunkers (it's not like you can spend the money fast enough with a fast natural and without too many production facilities early on) help stop it.
If you get a good spot in the mineral line, no need to split marines. 16 of them will snipe any incoming banelings (assuming the Zerg ran his drones away).
On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote: In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute.
It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all..
It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production.
I think I do that particular build ZiegField is referring to. There are multiple ways to open the build I guess, personally I do 12/14 2 rax with CC at 23, immediately add two gases, one more barracks, @100 gas factory, next 100 gas stim (3rd refinery) and then go for reactored starport from there. You'll have around 16 rines with stim and 2 medivacs at around 8 minutes if you do it correctly. Immediately after getting the medivacs just add Ebay, and begin tank production. Your combat shields, +1 and siege mode should all finish at the same time for a strong timing push at around 10 minutes.
On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote: In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute.
It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all..
It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production.
The combat shield is such a huge part of the build though, I would still love to see 1-1 stim marines with double medivacs at the 8 minute mark with non stop scv production. Might be possible but not sure, but it's for sure not possible to have 1-1 + stim + combat shield + medivac + 16 marines + enough marines to fill bunkers to defend baneling bust and good scv count at 8:00..
I really don't think this would work against zergs, that don't even have lair. Before the 10 minute mark zergs will have 3-4 queens and atleast 30 ling waiting for a tank rine push. But if you just drop with 16 marines. Not very useful unless you do a shit ton of dmge or they don't engage properly and they lose the queens, lingd etc. But most of the time the queens should focus the medivacs and the drop is over. I'm a high lvl zerg and I've faced a lot of scary drops.
Im only high plat, and my tvz was very random(either I crush or get crushed) so I started working with this build. Unfortunately it seems to be hit or miss, a lot of it depending on my execution. I think the best part about this build is the fast 3-3 upgraes if you stay on time with them. Having 3-3 by 20min has won me a few more games I probably would have lost under my previous circumstances. Its like having all new marines.
I really don't think this would work against zergs, that don't even have lair. Before the 10 minute mark zergs will have 3-4 queens and atleast 30 ling waiting for a tank rine push. But if you just drop with 16 marines. Not very useful unless you do a shit ton of dmge or they don't engage properly and they lose the queens, lingd etc. But most of the time the queens should focus the medivacs and the drop is over. I'm a high lvl zerg and I've faced a lot of scary drop
Like said in previous post, you don't need to actually do damage to be in a good position. You need to force them to make units. This build forces them to make units with out taking risk and getting great infrastructure and upgrades with a well timed third.
On September 20 2011 18:01 corvaleur wrote: Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push.
This was something I wanted to ask about this build. Do you really want to just sit around for 9 minutes, or can you bunker rush and pull this off at the same time? It seems anything to keep the Zerg distracted and wasting minerals would benefit this greatly.
I try it yesterday, but is very difficult to expand in natural. the zerg has many zergling im my natural, and doesn't let me expand. While his blow up economically...
I thought depending the map, is a not recommended BO. i Tried in Xel Naga. I recomend hellions, is more safer.
On September 20 2011 18:01 corvaleur wrote: Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push.
This was something I wanted to ask about this build. Do you really want to just sit around for 9 minutes, or can you bunker rush and pull this off at the same time? It seems anything to keep the Zerg distracted and wasting minerals would benefit this greatly.
It's probably important that you can bunker rush reliably with some degree of success. Bunker rush will obviously delay the eventual drop, so if it fails, you're still putting on no pressure afterwards and getting a later drop off.
On November 22 2011 05:20 Mostarda_br wrote: I try it yesterday, but is very difficult to expand in natural. the zerg has many zergling im my natural, and doesn't let me expand. While his blow up economically...
I thought depending the map, is a not recommended BO. i Tried in Xel Naga. I recomend hellions, is more safer.
You shouldn't judge the opening by a single game where a Zerg made many lings despite seeing that you weren't putting on any aggression. Or just keep the CC in your base for a while and get enough marines to clear out the natural. It's not like you're behind if he made so many lings to the point where you couldn't clear them out with the handful of marines you'd have out by the time the CC finishes.
HanSK I have been using your opening exclusively in mid-masters and I have an issue. It seems that when your first drop moves out, your risk getting caught by a well prepared zerg. If he has banes and more then 3-4 mutas, you cant pick up and run and you also cant really do any damage because the banes stomp you. You just lose your first drop for minimal damage. Have you had any experience with this kind of thing?
I know that this means that the zerg hasnt taken an early 3rd, but I also feel that I am not doing that well since he is able to drone up like crazy if he gets your first drop easily.
He shouldn't have mutas and banes that quick unless he's allinning. So just scout his 3rd with an scv or marine and switch into tank to hold his allin off.
On November 22 2011 09:05 statikg wrote: HanSK I have been using your opening exclusively in mid-masters and I have an issue. It seems that when your first drop moves out, your risk getting caught by a well prepared zerg. If he has banes and more then 3-4 mutas, you cant pick up and run and you also cant really do any damage because the banes stomp you. You just lose your first drop for minimal damage. Have you had any experience with this kind of thing?
I know that this means that the zerg hasnt taken an early 3rd, but I also feel that I am not doing that well since he is able to drone up like crazy if he gets your first drop easily.
If he has enough mutas and banelings to defend this drop at 10:30 and no amount of micro can get you away I'd love to see a replay..
On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote: In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute.
It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all..
It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production.
The combat shield is such a huge part of the build though, I would still love to see 1-1 stim marines with double medivacs at the 8 minute mark with non stop scv production. Might be possible but not sure, but it's for sure not possible to have 1-1 + stim + combat shield + medivac + 16 marines + enough marines to fill bunkers to defend baneling bust and good scv count at 8:00..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoE5LrIP2c
I don't get what your trying to say by muttering "not sure not sure", but here's the video.
This build is far more superior imo, even when executed with somewhat of a delay like Bomber did.
Tried this on ladder today and so far I've found that it's stronger on maps with narrow chokes or ramps at the natural (i.e. Antiga and Tal'darim) but weak against busts on maps with wider naturals like Xel'Naga and Metalopolis. The lack of siege tanks in the early-mid game is a huge weakness if the Zerg goes for a big bust at around nine minutes.
It's super-effective when on narrow ramp maps though. Even if the zerg busts it, the fact that you already have 1/1 marines with stim + cs allows you to macro your way through if they keep hurling units at you. If they don't you can stabilize fairly quickly and still have adequate forces to push.
On November 22 2011 09:05 statikg wrote: HanSK I have been using your opening exclusively in mid-masters and I have an issue. It seems that when your first drop moves out, your risk getting caught by a well prepared zerg. If he has banes and more then 3-4 mutas, you cant pick up and run and you also cant really do any damage because the banes stomp you. You just lose your first drop for minimal damage. Have you had any experience with this kind of thing?
I know that this means that the zerg hasnt taken an early 3rd, but I also feel that I am not doing that well since he is able to drone up like crazy if he gets your first drop easily.
If he has enough mutas and banelings to defend this drop at 10:30 and no amount of micro can get you away I'd love to see a replay..
Hi so you were right I watched again and I had done the drop a bit late around 11 because of some roach harass at the start.
Then when the banelings were there I tried to harass from below the base cliff and he ended up bringing half his forces around the bottom and the mutas popped at 12:00 and then I lost everything. So I guess its better to just leave rather then risk this kind of damage for probably minor reward. (that said I managd to deny his 3rd with my second drop due to this distraction but it definitely wasnt worth it)
On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote: In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute.
It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all..
It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production.
The combat shield is such a huge part of the build though, I would still love to see 1-1 stim marines with double medivacs at the 8 minute mark with non stop scv production. Might be possible but not sure, but it's for sure not possible to have 1-1 + stim + combat shield + medivac + 16 marines + enough marines to fill bunkers to defend baneling bust and good scv count at 8:00..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoE5LrIP2c
I don't get what your trying to say by muttering "not sure not sure", but here's the video.
This build is far more superior imo, even when executed with somewhat of a delay like Bomber did.
I like this variation ON THIS MAP. Shak plat is quite a bit different then any of the other maps we typically play on since you can block the natural off so easily you can do alot more risky builds. This build is really risky, at 8:00 he completely clears his base out of units, thats right before the typical baneling bust timing which I would say is the zerg reaction to 1rax FE play between 20-30% of the time. That said what I like about the build is the very early timing which I believe will really improve the power of the first drop. I will be testing it out, but probably not on maps like XC or metal.
On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote: In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute.
It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all..
It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production.
The combat shield is such a huge part of the build though, I would still love to see 1-1 stim marines with double medivacs at the 8 minute mark with non stop scv production. Might be possible but not sure, but it's for sure not possible to have 1-1 + stim + combat shield + medivac + 16 marines + enough marines to fill bunkers to defend baneling bust and good scv count at 8:00..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoE5LrIP2c
I don't get what your trying to say by muttering "not sure not sure", but here's the video.
This build is far more superior imo, even when executed with somewhat of a delay like Bomber did.
I don't get how this build is better at all. No combat shields, no 1-1 upgrades, the build it's self to get drops out so fast depends on the map it's self in a lot of ways.. the build talked about this in the thread sets you up for the late game much better and also comes with a more powerful drop just at a later time.
It might be a better choice in some cases but is in no way 'far superior', imo..
How do you guys like to navigate your initial drop? I've been playing it safe and hugging the far edges of the map, but this can take forever for some maps/spawn positions.
I've been doing this a little differently - I call it the retard build after a zerg's last words.
It's basically a "reactor hellion" expand into the same 2 medivac marine drop at about the same time, except I go +1/+0 on it which is still okay. The main selling point is that there are little to no hellions actually coming - I let the zerg scout the reactor.
I may make 2 hellions, send them out, clear the map, create the illusion of more hellions on the way, and force more speedlings, pointless simcities and a couple spines from the zerg. When nothing happens they are usually quite confused. Of course the goal is to get off a good drop behind their mineral patches, where 15 marines can kill off 60 lings.
I go gas light and constantly torture the zerg with back and forth 2-pronged drops, eventually forcing them to use mutas to defend against marines. If they stabilise I will already have a 3rd up with turrets.
On November 29 2011 12:25 shadymmj wrote: I've been doing this a little differently - I call it the retard build after a zerg's last words.
It's basically a "reactor hellion" expand into the same 2 medivac marine drop at about the same time, except I go +1/+0 on it which is still okay. The main selling point is that there are little to no hellions actually coming - I let the zerg scout the reactor.
I may make 2 hellions, send them out, clear the map, create the illusion of more hellions on the way, and force more speedlings, pointless simcities and a couple spines from the zerg. When nothing happens they are usually quite confused. Of course the goal is to get off a good drop behind their mineral patches, where 15 marines can kill off 60 lings.
I go gas light and constantly torture the zerg with back and forth 2-pronged drops, eventually forcing them to use mutas to defend against marines. If they stabilise I will already have a 3rd up with turrets.
done alot of this build and it works very well against mutas before banelings (assuming you dodge the mutas.) the mutas just come straight to my base anyway so they usually out of position. the 16 marines rapes lings if positioned right. (behind minerals).
What buildings should i target? out of double evo/pool/hatch/lair and spire and bling nest?
On November 29 2011 14:01 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: Doesn't the two-base banelingbust hard counter this build? I remember some games between Jinro and Morrow where jinro build-order loses to Morrow.
A proper sim city with proper micro and scouting can stop it.
Lately I have been doing the same build but throwing down 2 in base ccs instead of 1, you can still hold most 2base pressure unless the zerg immediately scouts what your doing and does some wierd super zergling attack and it really super charges you macro. I feel that without this macro "supercharge" its hard to keep up on macro with zerg who defends your drops well and transitions quickly into tier 3.
Hey, thanks for the build. I've been trying it out in gold league and it's definitely helping with my TvZ. I like how it sets you up well for the mid to late game but still has the potential to inflict a lot of pain on the zerg.
I've posted a replay on youtube of me using it against a friend who is in Plat. It's far from a perfect execution of the build especially when combined with gold league macro, but the drop does a huge amount of damage:
Love this build, I'm a goldie who's been struggling to get a handle on standard TvZ (I usually go heavy mech which tends to either win hard or lose hard). After trying this out I've realised it's just what I needed - a strong, safe initial attack that either wins outright (at my level at least) or sets you up nicely for the midgame. 'Grats.
I have done this build 4 times so far in gold league, seems to be ok I need to learn to execute it more precisely. I have a question about: "upgrade stim and combat shields same time" Why is this important to be started the same time? For me it seems better to start stimpack as soon as you have 100 gas and combat shield at next 100 gas since stimpack takes longer to research.
I still use this build, I think it’s important to note though, you should 100% of the time try to add two things to this build to make it stronger. 1st is try to apply some early pressure, not so much pressure you let your macro slip, but take your 1st 4 marines and a SCV and try a bunker rush, you goal is to just make him lose mining time and make lings not drones, you are not trying to win the game just mess with him. 2nd take a marine and put it at his 3rd base so you know when he puts it down. Normally when I do this build, a Zerg player will send a ling up to your wall off, if he is smart he will try to take a 3rd as soon as he see’s you are committed to some kind of two base play. However if he spends his next round of larva on drones you can push right then with every marine you have (around 12 to 16) and do some serious damage, there is no need to rally marines, keep them at home to stay safe. I can normally take down his 3rd or at the very least make him spend whatever lava he has on some kind of Army to defend and put him at a big disadvantage. This will delay your drop but it’s OK because you have set him back as well, and when your drop does come it will be nearly fatal.
I have read through this post and at first this really help me but I wonder if this build still can useful in HotS. This build seem nice to vs zerg in term of safe play and I like this at first and you said this can defend ling/bling atk before 10min.
Maybe my micro is not good enough, I was eliminated by ling/bling (in the replay). I know my mediavc pop up time is slow (should be out on around 9.30), but it seems like I was totally defeated by ling/bling.
Any advises?
Btw this is my first post. Normally I prefer to read because reading can let me learn more. But this time since no one post any replay that ling/bling counter this build and I meet this case so I hope this replay can help alot.
It's not that great of a build anymore. It used to be good, sort of, but if the Zerg just takes a 6:00 third like is standard these days and builds something like 5 Banelings and 30 Zerglings he can hold pretty darn well.
Another reason this build worked so well is because maps had close air positions. (think Metalopolis or Shattered Temple) Close air positions are non-existent on HotS maps.
On July 18 2013 00:18 Dark.EX wrote: It's not that great of a build anymore. It used to be good, sort of, but if the Zerg just takes a 6:00 third like is standard these days and builds something like 5 Banelings and 30 Zerglings he can hold pretty darn well.
Another reason this build worked so well is because maps had close air positions. (think Metalopolis or Shattered Temple) Close air positions are non-existent on HotS maps.
I don't even want to imagine close-by-air positions on Metalopolis or Shattered Temple with Speedvacs...
On July 18 2013 00:57 Chou Wai wrote: I see. Thanks for the advices. Since there are many patches updated and changing in HotS, some of the guides seem not as efficiency as before.
Is there any method to enhance this build to suit current HotS such as having scout/scan on 7 min or?
In todays metagame, You 1 Rax CC, the Zerg will take a super fast 3rd base and will survive with some combination of ling/bane/roach until the later lair tech kicks in. The 10 min pre muta timing basically doesnt exist anymore. There's really nothing you can do about it. You scout the third at 7 min, well you pretty much can't do anything to stop them not with range 5 queens anyways.
On July 18 2013 00:57 Chou Wai wrote: I see. Thanks for the advices. Since there are many patches updated and changing in HotS, some of the guides seem not as efficiency as before.
Is there any method to enhance this build to suit current HotS such as having scout/scan on 7 min or?
In todays metagame, You 1 Rax CC, the Zerg will take a super fast 3rd base and will survive with some combination of ling/bane/roach until the later lair tech kicks in. The 10 min pre muta timing basically doesnt exist anymore. There's really nothing you can do about it. You scout the third at 7 min, well you pretty much can't do anything to stop them not with range 5 queens anyways.
Actually I talked with a 1100+ point Terran, he said that what you do is reaper expand, then if you don't scout anything too fishy with your Reaper, you go really fast 3CC and then make a huge swell of units in the mid game and then try to kill/cripple the Zerg.
On July 18 2013 00:57 Chou Wai wrote: I see. Thanks for the advices. Since there are many patches updated and changing in HotS, some of the guides seem not as efficiency as before.
Is there any method to enhance this build to suit current HotS such as having scout/scan on 7 min or?
In todays metagame, You 1 Rax CC, the Zerg will take a super fast 3rd base and will survive with some combination of ling/bane/roach until the later lair tech kicks in. The 10 min pre muta timing basically doesnt exist anymore. There's really nothing you can do about it. You scout the third at 7 min, well you pretty much can't do anything to stop them not with range 5 queens anyways.
Actually I talked with a 1100+ point Terran, he said that what you do is reaper expand, then if you don't scout anything too fishy with your Reaper, you go really fast 3CC and then make a huge swell of units in the mid game and then try to kill/cripple the Zerg.
Yeah that's pretty much what happens these days. Don't really see how this contradicts what I said though.
On July 18 2013 00:57 Chou Wai wrote: I see. Thanks for the advices. Since there are many patches updated and changing in HotS, some of the guides seem not as efficiency as before.
Is there any method to enhance this build to suit current HotS such as having scout/scan on 7 min or?
In todays metagame, You 1 Rax CC, the Zerg will take a super fast 3rd base and will survive with some combination of ling/bane/roach until the later lair tech kicks in. The 10 min pre muta timing basically doesnt exist anymore. There's really nothing you can do about it. You scout the third at 7 min, well you pretty much can't do anything to stop them not with range 5 queens anyways.
Actually I talked with a 1100+ point Terran, he said that what you do is reaper expand, then if you don't scout anything too fishy with your Reaper, you go really fast 3CC and then make a huge swell of units in the mid game and then try to kill/cripple the Zerg.
Yeah that's pretty much what happens these days. Don't really see how this contradicts what I said though.
Oh right, you didn't say gasless- you just said 1 rax CC.
It's just that 1 rax CC could mean virtually anything.
Hi it's great! I'm a diamond Z in korea server. I think TVZ is more easier than ZVT. In current vertion, how can I play ZVT more agrresive or more sucessful ? Do you have some replays for me to improve my ZVT.
On July 18 2013 00:57 Chou Wai wrote: I see. Thanks for the advices. Since there are many patches updated and changing in HotS, some of the guides seem not as efficiency as before.
Is there any method to enhance this build to suit current HotS such as having scout/scan on 7 min or?
In todays metagame, You 1 Rax CC, the Zerg will take a super fast 3rd base and will survive with some combination of ling/bane/roach until the later lair tech kicks in. The 10 min pre muta timing basically doesnt exist anymore. There's really nothing you can do about it. You scout the third at 7 min, well you pretty much can't do anything to stop them not with range 5 queens anyways.
Um you don't 1 rax CC. Todays metagame is CC first or 1 rax reaper expand. There is no reason to do a 1 rax expand anymore, if you are going to do that you might as well go reaper it's better in every way possible.
On July 22 2013 14:23 PaulGao wrote: Hi it's great! I'm a diamond Z in korea server. I think TVZ is more easier than ZVT. In current vertion, how can I play ZVT more agrresive or more sucessful ? Do you have some replays for me to improve my ZVT.
EPT
) to force the zerg to create roaches or more spines. if i think he's spent a significant amount of resources in response to the hellions, ill give the reactor to the rax, and while im doing the hellion shenanigans i would have expo'd and have marine/medivac production, to follow up with a drop, which would either end the game or do some terrible, terrible damage. eh, just a thought, dont know exact timings, i just was like. hmm. ill take out a barracks and put in an earlier factory. 
