Introduction *PLEASE note I do not try and select the highest quality players to show the builds, my play time is limited and I just find what games I can to show. The main goal is to show the idea behind the build order. The games are always low to mid masters. Check the replay added for higher quality game. Hello,
This build is designed to be a very powerful attack that comes about the ten minute mark, and it comes with 1-1 upgrades with combat shield and stim on the marines. It's also meant to play standard and safe. The idea behind it is if the zerg gets too greedy and goes for 75 drones and 3 bases before 10 minutes like happens a lot now they will just die to the drop - and if they have proper defense you lose nothing and have two bases up good upgrades tech and saturation prepared to play standard from there.
The fundamentals behind the build
As described in the introduction, I started using this build to make sure zergs didn't get too greedy. I played a lot of games where I would play far too passive and I would just lose to 3 base 70 drone zergs while still on 2 bases with 45 scvs. How ever, some times I would try to be aggressive and lose all my units to a zerg who was ready to flank my fake move out, or even worse didn't buy into my fake attack and didn't build any units. I also tried all-ins but I don't really like those too much as if they get crushed[they were not being greedy] I lose. So I had to find a way to not let them get too greedy to give my self a chance in the standard game while not taking huge risk.
So the core behind this build is to have a safe way to punish too greedy zergs, and if they were not too greedy then you will not lose anything at all and be left with good upgrades units and saturation on two bases and you can play safe and standard from there with out being behind much if any at all.
Special decisions in the build and reasoning behind some things. First of all I like to play safe - so I highly suggest getting two bunkers and a supply depot at the natural when you lift your expansion out there. This way while your drop is in the process you can be safe to counter attacks, it can also suggest to the zerg you are defensive and won't be doing such an aggressive move though you will.
Next, I'd like to point out the reasoning behind combat shields AND stim which delays the push by about 30 seconds. I think combat shield is amazing for holding all-in's and the drop it's self. Marines tanking 1 extra hit can make the difference before killing a hatchery or tech building or not or holding your natural to an all-in or not.
Next is something very important, if they have banelings and zergling waiting for your drop because they some how scouted it do not lose all your marines, it's VERY important to either one, drop marines on individual banelings to be cost effective, or two just fly back and play standard from there.
Another choice if you really want to have a even stronger drop but I think is a little bit worse to play standard afterwords if you do no damage is get one viking first and clear the over-lords on your drop path so they are caught 100% off guard. This can end the game VERY often.
Lastly, once you go into standard play I suggest at some point on 3 bases to jump to 3 factorys to make up on the tank count as you do lose a couple getting this drop up so fast.
Micro tips: You would be VERY surprised at how much 16 1-1 combat shield stim marines can take out. Do not be afraid to engage a decent amount of lings in a corner, just know your limits. If they only have a few banelings don't be scared, you can target them down very easily or spread if they don't have overwhelming amounts of lings. I see too many times with this build people get scared and don't take out an easily winnable battle, but at the same time don't get over-confident.
Build order: 12 rax 15 orbital 16 supply 17 Command center 23 add two rax 25 add two refinerys put 2 on each gas when finished[total of 3 in each] 31 add two tech labs[produce marines almost non stop from all 3] as soon as you hit 200 gas upgrade stim and combat shields same time next 100 gas add factory + 2 ebays[around 38 - 45 food depending on units you've made] as soon as factorys done make reactor and build star port, when ebays done upgrade armor and weapons instantly as soon as starports done switch to reactor and build double medivacs around 9:30 you should have at least two bunkers full of marines and 16 marines to drop with with 1-1 upgrades[by the time you drop in their base] and stim and combat shields from this point on i suggest tech lab on fact and start getting tanks and seige and play a standard game from here.
Replays: I explain the build in some detail here.
EDIT: I HIGHLY suggest watching this replay over the VoD if you're not interested in commentary. This replay shows the build exacuted much much better and it also shows how strong this build can be even vs a zerg who thinks he's prepared for drops. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13331
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Q1: Have you ever lost your drop to mutas? Q2: Do you open this way without knowing whether the Z plays greedy or not? are there any early indicators to a Z being greedy?
On September 20 2011 08:39 Joner wrote: I like it! and i will try it!
Q1: Have you ever lost your drop to mutas? Q2: Do you open this way without knowing whether the Z plays greedy or not? are there any early indicators to a Z being greedy?
I don't think I've ever lost my drop to mutas. Even at the highest level you rarely ever see mutas before 10 minutes, if at all. I use scans to scout for spire and even if they have mutas up you can choose to one attack anyways or two don't do the drop and play standard from there. I normally attack as 90% of the time I can drop them before mutas intercept my drop. That is the beauty of this build is that you end up with a way to pressure that is safe for standard play and doesn't put you far behind even if you don't kill any units with it.
As for the second question, I open this way in the majority of my TvZ. I want to force him not to be greedy no matter what, so if he knows I'm doing this build and he prepares for it very well great - he's not greedy and I'm not behind much if at all as I have 1-1 upgrades a 3rd going and tanks on the way. If he is greedy, I do major damage. Great, I'm ahead.
The biggest way to spot how greedy they are is a scan, check their drone count and look for whats coming out of eggs or if you see any units. Rather they are greedy or not is not the deciding factor in using this build or not though, it's to force them not to be greedy and if they are you do huge damage and if not you are equal or close to equal with them.
Reallllly nice build that i've seen GSL players do as well, i dont know about the 1-1 though. i feel like going for earlier siege tanks / some more rax and reactors might be better and later ups. i dono though.
The reason this build is so good is because A) you get a fast safe expo b) get ALL tech out and all important upgrades immediately which is amazing and most importantly c) the zerg usually won't see it coming until it's too late and will have like 3 units if they took a third and maybe some mutas.
on top of all that i usually get the spire.
so goood ! although this build was already done by GSL players, thanks!
About building a viking to clear the air path, two things :
One, this is why I've started using zerglings to cover drop paths when possible, and
Two, that's a giant tell in itself. Though it is useful to float around killing overlords to deny map vision, it tells me as a zerg that you've got a starport up and running and don't want me to be able to see all these drop paths for some reason. Though I wouldn't be inspired to pre-emptively overprepare for drops, I'd certainly be wary of potential drops and would endeavor to both check whether or not you're planning to drop and position to receive drops anyhow.
This is extra true if I've scouted and seen no other tech, such as Blue Flame or Siege tanks, but have seen barracks with tech labs and upgrades. If I know you've got bio upgrades and a starport, I'm probably going to put one and one together.
Other than that, sick guide! I'm all for builds that punish greedy openers while remaining safe! Though greedy openers do help a lot of people win, ill-gotten economies can pretty easily be compared to flat-out cheeses as far as I'm concerned :D
On September 20 2011 08:56 necrOtix wrote: Reallllly nice build that i've seen GSL players do as well, i dont know about the 1-1 though. i feel like going for earlier siege tanks / some more rax and reactors might be better and later ups. i dono though.
The reason this build is so good is because A) you get a fast safe expo b) get ALL tech out and all important upgrades immediately which is amazing and most importantly c) the zerg usually won't see it coming until it's too late and will have like 3 units if they took a third and maybe some mutas.
on top of all that i usually get the spire.
so goood ! although this build was already done by GSL players, thanks!
I really like setting my self up for uber late-game, so that early upgrades and two ebays allows me to get to 3-3 as fast as possible. This is why I do it. If you plan on being much more aggressive after the drop more barracks might be the better choice!
About building a viking to clear the air path, two things :
One, this is why I've started using zerglings to cover drop paths when possible, and
Two, that's a giant tell in itself. Though it is useful to float around killing overlords to deny map vision, it tells me as a zerg that you've got a starport up and running and don't want me to be able to see all these drop paths for some reason. Though I wouldn't be inspired to pre-emptively overprepare for drops, I'd certainly be wary of potential drops and would endeavor to both check whether or not you're planning to drop and position to receive drops anyhow.
This is extra true if I've scouted and seen no other tech, such as Blue Flame or Siege tanks, but have seen barracks with tech labs and upgrades. If I know you've got bio upgrades and a starport, I'm probably going to put one and one together.
Other than that, sick guide! I'm all for builds that punish greedy openers while remaining safe! Though greedy openers do help a lot of people win, ill-gotten economies can pretty easily be compared to flat-out cheeses as far as I'm concerned :D
I agree there with the viking. Against very high level-players who have seen similar builds before I would prefer not to get it. I actually very rarely get it as if they are going mutas my drop comes too late. It also is more of a I hope this works attack compared to cool if it does doesn't matter if it doesn't attack.
I think that with higher lvl zergs it will not succeed. That zerg had only bane nest(zero lair tech) and no map awerness whatsoever. The guide is written fantasticly, but I just feel it can be shattered by a good macro zerg (he was like platinum/diamond?) and after defending ur drop with ling bane or ling bane infestor hes on 3 saturated bases (9.30 is full 3 base saturo i think) and You will have to wait to get out with at least 4 tanks to take Your third. You can always fall back, get mech support and push anyways with nice upgraded marines, but this drop feels risky to me.
And one more thing - You can read drop play by going to Your bunker line with 1-2 lings - no siege tank shots (if You fail to scout the main base) = bio/blue flame drops.
On September 20 2011 09:13 voy wrote: I think that with higher lvl zergs it will not succeed. That zerg had only bane nest(zero lair tech) and no map awerness whatsoever. The guide is written fantasticly, but I just feel it can be shattered by a good macro zerg (he was like platinum/diamond?) and after defending ur drop with ling bane or ling bane infestor hes on 3 saturated bases (9.30 is full 3 base saturo i think) and You will have to wait to get out with at least 4 tanks to take Your third. You can always fall back, get mech support and push anyways with nice upgraded marines, but this drop feels risky to me.
It's a masters game[he was bottom of masters]. I don't think it's really risky at all. You will have full saturation on two bases with a third going up when the drops move out and 1-2 siege tanks by the time the drop starts landing. You are very short from taking your third with great upgrades and tons of rax on the way. If he pumps nothing but drones until 9:30 chances are you will do damage with this drop as well, be ahead in tech and upgrades and ready to take your third since he won't have many units to be offensive with vs your high tech upgraded army.
If he didn't pump nothing but drones until 9:30 then you're also still fine just pull back and play from there with no losses.
I'd like to emphasize this is not a all-in or must do damage thing. This is to either 1. Force him to prepare for a large drop by making units and using more APM towards defense, or 2. Do damage if he disregarded doing that. Think of it like pushing out in SC1 to force them to build a bunch of sunkens, or die in a way.
I really like this build. The other thing you can do with 2 medivacs worth of marines on a map like shakuras is drop 1 on the low ground and 1 on the high ground. Then run the ones on the high ground in, take out some drones, and run back to the low ground cover once they bring in the lings/blings, or just pick up and re-drop. Makes it extremely cost efficient and annoying.
How do you hold a 2 base baneling bust? I love getting out the fast upgrades and medivacs, but until all that tech is out you have to be careful about being too greedy.
This build truly highlights the insane efficiency and potency of Marines. Zerg truly needs a dedicated response to stop this build, and oftentimes the Zerg cannot tell it is coming because Terrans can hide tech very easily. I would recommend this build, as I have lost to it many times before.
do you think its better to split the medivacs and double prong or to keep them together and hit him hard?
This depends. Some times the zerg will have the units to defend the push and you'll drop one dropship and he'll instantly force you to lift up with the queen attacking the medivac so you're forced to run. Mean while the other drones will be instantly pulled and before you get close to killing the hatchery he has his units to clean that drop up too and you end up doing almost no damage. This of course is only if the zerg is very good and has creep connecting his bases.
If they are all in one spot[the marines] you can take on much larger numbers of units.
How do you hold a 2 base baneling bust? I love getting out the fast upgrades and medivacs, but until all that tech is out you have to be careful about being too greedy.
Two bunkers normally hold any two base baneling bust that come before combat shields and high enough marine numbers.
I'd love to see some more replays of this build versus different Z openers, would be nice if you could provide some! =)
Working on that, how ever my play time is small right now and I've been hitting only terrans and protoss when I play the ladder lately.
On September 20 2011 15:45 hongster wrote: How do you handle any kind of early roach rush? ie how do you react if you scout 1 base, pool and gas going down?
Bunkers are pretty much answer to all roach rushes if you scout or sense them coming. If you defend you're very very likely to win. If you see he has no expand and has gas and pool and you think there is a good chance he's going roach just build a bunker or two and have scvs ready to repair - you'll be fine. You can always sell it later. Tanks are always almost unrealistic to get to defend roach rushes unless you're rushing to them and still you need a bunker.
My mutas are on the field at like 9:30 even when playing standard vs hellion pressure, with no pressure at all like this I would probably have them around 9 minutes with 2 full saturated bases and a macro hatch. 1-1 marines will be really good for fending off my harass though, and my 1-1 will certainly not be done yet.
Seems solid except vs roach bane aggression that would also hit around the 9 minute mark. When all you would have is 25 0-0 marines and a bunker.
Here's a replay of me doing a similar build. I don't go for the 1-1, maybe i should, but I open 2rax so I can a) kill that annoying overlord that likes to camp ur base on shattered, and b) apply pressure even earlier if i feel like it, and c) feel even safer from any zerg aggression.
His build might be a little more efficient than mine, but he only posted a VoD against a greedy zerg, so I thought i'd post a replay vs a less greedy zerg.
On September 20 2011 16:42 spbelky wrote: Here's a replay of me doing a similar build. I don't go for the 1-1, maybe i should, but I open 2rax so I can a) kill that annoying overlord that likes to camp ur base on shattered, and b) apply pressure even earlier if i feel like it, and c) feel even safer from any zerg aggression.
His build might be a little more efficient than mine, but he only posted a VoD against a greedy zerg, so I thought i'd post a replay vs a less greedy zerg.
I've done this a few other times with much better success, but this is the first one I found.
I just uploaded a replay against a zerg who actually builds a very odd amount of zerglings and me executing the build a LOT better. I very highly suggest people watch this replay over this vod if they want to see it with out commentary. The drop kills off 32 speedlings and a lair and gets out with little damage done and a 3rd up with 3 tanks before the 13 minute mark. note: ignore the video, it is different than the replay.
Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push.
EPT
