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I really don't think this would work against zergs, that don't even have lair. Before the 10 minute mark zergs will have 3-4 queens and atleast 30 ling waiting for a tank rine push. But if you just drop with 16 marines. Not very useful unless you do a shit ton of dmge or they don't engage properly and they lose the queens, lingd etc. But most of the time the queens should focus the medivacs and the drop is over. I'm a high lvl zerg and I've faced a lot of scary drop
Like said in previous post, you don't need to actually do damage to be in a good position. You need to force them to make units. This build forces them to make units with out taking risk and getting great infrastructure and upgrades with a well timed third.
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On September 20 2011 18:01 corvaleur wrote:
Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push.
This was something I wanted to ask about this build. Do you really want to just sit around for 9 minutes, or can you bunker rush and pull this off at the same time? It seems anything to keep the Zerg distracted and wasting minerals would benefit this greatly.
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I try it yesterday, but is very difficult to expand in natural. the zerg has many zergling im my natural, and doesn't let me expand. While his blow up economically...
I thought depending the map, is a not recommended BO. i Tried in Xel Naga. I recomend hellions, is more safer.
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On November 22 2011 02:45 Rocktimus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 18:01 corvaleur wrote:
Great build! I feel that there's a huge potential of fine tuning, for example swapping the addons since you have 2 useless techlabs and build a third on your fac.
There's one thing I don't like about the build and that's the 9 minutes of passivity. Maybe opening with a bunker rush would do good or a 4 hellion push. This was something I wanted to ask about this build. Do you really want to just sit around for 9 minutes, or can you bunker rush and pull this off at the same time? It seems anything to keep the Zerg distracted and wasting minerals would benefit this greatly.
It's probably important that you can bunker rush reliably with some degree of success. Bunker rush will obviously delay the eventual drop, so if it fails, you're still putting on no pressure afterwards and getting a later drop off.
On November 22 2011 05:20 Mostarda_br wrote:
I try it yesterday, but is very difficult to expand in natural. the zerg has many zergling im my natural, and doesn't let me expand. While his blow up economically...
I thought depending the map, is a not recommended BO. i Tried in Xel Naga. I recomend hellions, is more safer.
You shouldn't judge the opening by a single game where a Zerg made many lings despite seeing that you weren't putting on any aggression. Or just keep the CC in your base for a while and get enough marines to clear out the natural. It's not like you're behind if he made so many lings to the point where you couldn't clear them out with the handful of marines you'd have out by the time the CC finishes.
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HanSK I have been using your opening exclusively in mid-masters and I have an issue. It seems that when your first drop moves out, your risk getting caught by a well prepared zerg. If he has banes and more then 3-4 mutas, you cant pick up and run and you also cant really do any damage because the banes stomp you. You just lose your first drop for minimal damage. Have you had any experience with this kind of thing?
I know that this means that the zerg hasnt taken an early 3rd, but I also feel that I am not doing that well since he is able to drone up like crazy if he gets your first drop easily.
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He shouldn't have mutas and banes that quick unless he's allinning. So just scout his 3rd with an scv or marine and switch into tank to hold his allin off.
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On November 22 2011 09:05 statikg wrote:
HanSK I have been using your opening exclusively in mid-masters and I have an issue. It seems that when your first drop moves out, your risk getting caught by a well prepared zerg. If he has banes and more then 3-4 mutas, you cant pick up and run and you also cant really do any damage because the banes stomp you. You just lose your first drop for minimal damage. Have you had any experience with this kind of thing?
I know that this means that the zerg hasnt taken an early 3rd, but I also feel that I am not doing that well since he is able to drone up like crazy if he gets your first drop easily.
If he has enough mutas and banelings to defend this drop at 10:30 and no amount of micro can get you away I'd love to see a replay..
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On November 22 2011 00:20 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 19:05 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 20 2011 19:05 HansK wrote:On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute. It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all.. It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production. The combat shield is such a huge part of the build though, I would still love to see 1-1 stim marines with double medivacs at the 8 minute mark with non stop scv production. Might be possible but not sure, but it's for sure not possible to have 1-1 + stim + combat shield + medivac + 16 marines + enough marines to fill bunkers to defend baneling bust and good scv count at 8:00.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoE5LrIP2c
I don't get what your trying to say by muttering "not sure not sure", but here's the video.
This build is far more superior imo, even when executed with somewhat of a delay like Bomber did.
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Tried this on ladder today and so far I've found that it's stronger on maps with narrow chokes or ramps at the natural (i.e. Antiga and Tal'darim) but weak against busts on maps with wider naturals like Xel'Naga and Metalopolis. The lack of siege tanks in the early-mid game is a huge weakness if the Zerg goes for a big bust at around nine minutes.
It's super-effective when on narrow ramp maps though. Even if the zerg busts it, the fact that you already have 1/1 marines with stim + cs allows you to macro your way through if they keep hurling units at you. If they don't you can stabilize fairly quickly and still have adequate forces to push.
All in all, well done.
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On November 22 2011 09:22 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 09:05 statikg wrote:
HanSK I have been using your opening exclusively in mid-masters and I have an issue. It seems that when your first drop moves out, your risk getting caught by a well prepared zerg. If he has banes and more then 3-4 mutas, you cant pick up and run and you also cant really do any damage because the banes stomp you. You just lose your first drop for minimal damage. Have you had any experience with this kind of thing?
I know that this means that the zerg hasnt taken an early 3rd, but I also feel that I am not doing that well since he is able to drone up like crazy if he gets your first drop easily. If he has enough mutas and banelings to defend this drop at 10:30 and no amount of micro can get you away I'd love to see a replay..
Hi so you were right I watched again and I had done the drop a bit late around 11 because of some roach harass at the start.
Then when the banelings were there I tried to harass from below the base cliff and he ended up bringing half his forces around the bottom and the mutas popped at 12:00 and then I lost everything. So I guess its better to just leave rather then risk this kind of damage for probably minor reward. (that said I managd to deny his 3rd with my second drop due to this distraction but it definitely wasnt worth it)
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On November 22 2011 10:27 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:20 HansK wrote:On November 21 2011 19:05 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 20 2011 19:05 HansK wrote:On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute. It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all.. It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production. The combat shield is such a huge part of the build though, I would still love to see 1-1 stim marines with double medivacs at the 8 minute mark with non stop scv production. Might be possible but not sure, but it's for sure not possible to have 1-1 + stim + combat shield + medivac + 16 marines + enough marines to fill bunkers to defend baneling bust and good scv count at 8:00.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoE5LrIP2c I don't get what your trying to say by muttering "not sure not sure", but here's the video. This build is far more superior imo, even when executed with somewhat of a delay like Bomber did.
I like this variation ON THIS MAP. Shak plat is quite a bit different then any of the other maps we typically play on since you can block the natural off so easily you can do alot more risky builds. This build is really risky, at 8:00 he completely clears his base out of units, thats right before the typical baneling bust timing which I would say is the zerg reaction to 1rax FE play between 20-30% of the time. That said what I like about the build is the very early timing which I believe will really improve the power of the first drop. I will be testing it out, but probably not on maps like XC or metal.
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On November 22 2011 10:27 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:20 HansK wrote:On November 21 2011 19:05 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 20 2011 19:05 HansK wrote:On November 20 2011 18:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
In the first game of Bomber and Destiny in their bo3 series, a similar build was executed but it hits at the 8 minute mark instead of the 11th minute. It's not possible to have 16 1-1 stim + combat shield marines while being safe from baneling bust and two bases with good saturation at the eight minute mark. I'm not even sure if it's possible to have it by the 8 minute mark at all.. It is. 2 Medivacs, 16 Marines, stim but no Combat Shield, no delay in SCV production. The combat shield is such a huge part of the build though, I would still love to see 1-1 stim marines with double medivacs at the 8 minute mark with non stop scv production. Might be possible but not sure, but it's for sure not possible to have 1-1 + stim + combat shield + medivac + 16 marines + enough marines to fill bunkers to defend baneling bust and good scv count at 8:00.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xoE5LrIP2c I don't get what your trying to say by muttering "not sure not sure", but here's the video. This build is far more superior imo, even when executed with somewhat of a delay like Bomber did.
I don't get how this build is better at all. No combat shields, no 1-1 upgrades, the build it's self to get drops out so fast depends on the map it's self in a lot of ways.. the build talked about this in the thread sets you up for the late game much better and also comes with a more powerful drop just at a later time.
It might be a better choice in some cases but is in no way 'far superior', imo..
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Dude. $7.50 per hour? You're a high masters player, you're worth more than that 100% lol  Just something to think about.
Also this guide is really good. I offrace as Terran on another account so this will be interesting to test out. Thanks.
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How do you guys like to navigate your initial drop? I've been playing it safe and hugging the far edges of the map, but this can take forever for some maps/spawn positions.
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I've been doing this a little differently - I call it the retard build after a zerg's last words.
It's basically a "reactor hellion" expand into the same 2 medivac marine drop at about the same time, except I go +1/+0 on it which is still okay. The main selling point is that there are little to no hellions actually coming - I let the zerg scout the reactor.
I may make 2 hellions, send them out, clear the map, create the illusion of more hellions on the way, and force more speedlings, pointless simcities and a couple spines from the zerg. When nothing happens they are usually quite confused. Of course the goal is to get off a good drop behind their mineral patches, where 15 marines can kill off 60 lings.
I go gas light and constantly torture the zerg with back and forth 2-pronged drops, eventually forcing them to use mutas to defend against marines. If they stabilise I will already have a 3rd up with turrets.
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On November 29 2011 12:25 shadymmj wrote:
I've been doing this a little differently - I call it the retard build after a zerg's last words.
It's basically a "reactor hellion" expand into the same 2 medivac marine drop at about the same time, except I go +1/+0 on it which is still okay. The main selling point is that there are little to no hellions actually coming - I let the zerg scout the reactor.
I may make 2 hellions, send them out, clear the map, create the illusion of more hellions on the way, and force more speedlings, pointless simcities and a couple spines from the zerg. When nothing happens they are usually quite confused. Of course the goal is to get off a good drop behind their mineral patches, where 15 marines can kill off 60 lings.
I go gas light and constantly torture the zerg with back and forth 2-pronged drops, eventually forcing them to use mutas to defend against marines. If they stabilise I will already have a 3rd up with turrets.
Sounds interesting, do you have a good replay?
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Doesn't the two-base banelingbust hard counter this build? I remember some games between Jinro and Morrow where jinro build-order loses to Morrow.
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done alot of this build and it works very well against mutas before banelings (assuming you dodge the mutas.)
the mutas just come straight to my base anyway so they usually out of position.
the 16 marines rapes lings if positioned right. (behind minerals).
What buildings should i target?
out of double evo/pool/hatch/lair and spire and bling nest?
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On November 29 2011 14:01 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Doesn't the two-base banelingbust hard counter this build? I remember some games between Jinro and Morrow where jinro build-order loses to Morrow.
A proper sim city with proper micro and scouting can stop it.
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Lately I have been doing the same build but throwing down 2 in base ccs instead of 1, you can still hold most 2base pressure unless the zerg immediately scouts what your doing and does some wierd super zergling attack and it really super charges you macro. I feel that without this macro "supercharge" its hard to keep up on macro with zerg who defends your drops well and transitions quickly into tier 3.
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EPT
