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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 20 2011 16:04 Headshot646 wrote: This is a gold Btw In TvT i am having problems with knowing if the enemy is going for an early attack because i like to control a mech army much more than a marine tank army. The only thing that i know is that a marine tank push can be observed by if they get a quick second gas. I cant post any reps cause i am on an ipod. Second question wat is the role of the hellion in tvt? Is it only harassment? Or viable fodder to protect the tanks?
Post a replay when you get the chance. Usually a scan (with your 3rd or 4th set of OC energy) is what you want to scout this)
Hellion's role is mostly to kill marines during battles of mech vs marine/tank, but also to tank a bit for the tanks. It is an effective harasser and good anti-harass against marine drops, reapers, and other hellions.
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Russian Federation899 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:30 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:22 Cycle wrote: Hey peoples, simple TvP question here: I'm going to play a TvP mech style, but want to do a 1 rax gasless expand. Am I able to safely do this versus Protoss (map dependent of course) and go straight to siege tech, or will I need more than 1 barracks as the expansion goes up? It really depends on what your opponent is doing. If he's expanding as well, this is safe, but against certain all-ins, especially a VR all-in, you'll want a 2nd rax. A 2nd rax isn't really a liability for a mech player anyways, since you can use it to make addons later on, or to fly around and scout.
depends. If u r a lower league player than 2nd rax is fine but if u r high masters, i'd actually recommened playing around with 1 reactored rax and turret support and camp with thors and shit and +1 timing attack while expoing (thors do pretty good with upgrade advantage).
It's much more complicated as u have to figure out the positioning of ur turrets on every map and throw down sensor tower at a certain point, but u deviate less from ur midgame composition.
P.S. and yes, i know it may sound wierd but it's not actually as bad as it sounds lol
^ this is only a suggestion but if u desperately want mech in this mu but in fact what i do when i see no expo at 6.30-7.00 by toss is slam down starport, because i'm bad at turret positioning and stuff ;(
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Dear all,
How much luck dependent are we in countering a cheese tactic? It might be that I'm too easily impressed, but take a look at the Liquipedia page for the Banshee opening. In the build order description it says that the first Banshee WITH cloak is out @~5:30.
Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Banshee_Opening Pop out the build order box.
In all of my replays, I have Jack shit in my base at that time. Not enough marines, not enough scans, no engineering bay, and what the hell do my tanks do against those (cloaked) Banshees.
I'm advised by a lot of people to use my third scan to scout his base, for me that is at 6:30ish. The first scout, as Blazinghand pointed out in his VoD for me, is usually walled out and I won't see his Starport with the thingy in time.
I'm a noob, so I won't rely on my own experience to come up with an answer without knowing the following:
What do you guys usually have at 5:30? Does this Banshee opener have something besides the Banshee and the 4 marines to rely on? Is the Banshee opener an all-in? Because it's not listed under cheese builds on Liquipedia (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Strategy). Any general tips on dealing with early pressure?
And btw, thanks for the VoD's again Blazinghand! They are a real eye opener. I just keep those things in mind so much better. I really think I'm improving since you started helping me out. People int he US should really take your premium coaching!
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@Blazinghand: Thanks a lot for doing another coaching video for me, they do tend to be about scouting, eh? This type of loss feels extremely dumb afterwards, but hey, I'm learning from it.
Oh, and except for the gap between the tech lab finishing and marauder/concussive shell starting (which was me being bad), the waiting was intentional - I've been waiting for 2 marauders, and I want the reaper to come in at the same time as the poke from the front. I'll try out doing the poke with only 1 marauder, as it'll hit significantly earlier and that's one less unit I'm risking to lose by doing the poke.
And as said.. bunkers are basically free, I did have a hunch (when in reality I should've been screaming VOID RAAAAAAAAYS! MAN THE BUNKERS!) that I should build bunkers - but I didn't, and so I fell over and died. >.>
I'd highly appreciate if you could take a quick look at the other game vs ThOrn as well, but just checking if there's something I did wrong that I didn't notice is enough, and no need for a vod or anything.
Regardless, thanks a lot. Also, I liked your friend in the most recent vod, he had some good points. 
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On September 20 2011 20:04 KenDM wrote:Dear all, How much luck dependent are we in countering a cheese tactic? It might be that I'm too easily impressed, but take a look at the Liquipedia page for the Banshee opening. In the build order description it says that the first Banshee WITH cloak is out @~5:30. Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Banshee_OpeningPop out the build order box. In all of my replays, I have Jack shit in my base at that time. Not enough marines, not enough scans, no engineering bay, and what the hell do my tanks do against those (cloaked) Banshees. I'm advised by a lot of people to use my third scan to scout his base, for me that is at 6:30ish. The first scout, as Blazinghand pointed out in his VoD for me, is usually walled out and I won't see his Starport with the thingy in time.
If the opponent if going for a superfast Banshee, it will involve gas before rax as the build order page mentions. In that case, it's easily scouted. When you get to his base, compare the progress on his rax with yours and compare his refinery with yours and you should easily see that he went gas before rax, which means that something super tech heavy is coming out. And especially in the lower leagues, that means (cloaked) Banshees. Throw the scan a bit earlier than 6:30 to confirm this.
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On September 20 2011 20:50 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 20:04 KenDM wrote:Dear all, How much luck dependent are we in countering a cheese tactic? It might be that I'm too easily impressed, but take a look at the Liquipedia page for the Banshee opening. In the build order description it says that the first Banshee WITH cloak is out @~5:30. Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Banshee_OpeningPop out the build order box. In all of my replays, I have Jack shit in my base at that time. Not enough marines, not enough scans, no engineering bay, and what the hell do my tanks do against those (cloaked) Banshees. I'm advised by a lot of people to use my third scan to scout his base, for me that is at 6:30ish. The first scout, as Blazinghand pointed out in his VoD for me, is usually walled out and I won't see his Starport with the thingy in time. If the opponent if going for a superfast Banshee, it will involve gas before rax as the build order page mentions. In that case, it's easily scouted. When you get to his base, compare the progress on his rax with yours and compare his refinery with yours and you should easily see that he went gas before rax, which means that something super tech heavy is coming out. And especially in the lower leagues, that means (cloaked) Banshees. Throw the scan a bit earlier than 6:30 to confirm this.
Agreed, but won't using my second scan for scouting putting me behind on my economy? And will preparing for a counter make that I delay my expansion?
Micro question: Stutter step/kiting/shoot move is the same thing right? More important question: Attack move, move stop, or move and halt. What's the best method? I used to do move and stop, someone told me to use the attack move. I'm not sure what the difference is and I can't find it on Google either...
EDIT:
I HATE CHEESES :@ This is why I always finish the wall as soon as possible. Can't believe that it's still possible to just start making pylons and photon cannons inside my base :@ :@ :@ And it's not like they have to build it, he just spam spawns the fucking things. What the hell can you do to prevent this?
http://drop.sc/36435
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Sup fellow terran bro's
With the recent macro analyser I've been hammering on my macro like hell I think its improving my skill level by a bit. Not as much my build order or push timings.
Ive had the chance to play a master player which I don't oftently get, I think my terran skill level is like low diamondish.
I would like to ask people for help vs people who do the ling infestor style where they fungal everything with the lings being the meat shield. My own analysis of the game:
I open reactor hellion FE (not how a progamer would do it, I executed it a bit worse)
I dont do any particular damage with the hellions but I got map control, my expansion and some pretty fast tanks. I push at 10:30 with 24 stimmed marines , 3 hellions and 4 tanks. The push is decently succesfull, I take out the zergs third kill all of his lings lose my tanks but 1 tank, and keep almost all my rines. I retreat and get my third up, I move out and right as I move out of my natural my marines get fungalled and the rest taken out. I think this is the important part of the game as I lose straight away with him barely having a scratch.
I am not sayingIi played well this game but i'd love some feedback on any mistakes beside forgetting combat shields, misrallying 5 scvs. As I was ahead until he just plainly killed me and I felt I really was plauying better then this guy for the first 10 minutes. I am pretty sure I am doing something very wrong or its just the mistakes all together that I have already seen.
Link of the replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?1294iheyjzkbhy4
For lazy people who still want to help, check out my opener, push and what this guy did @14:20
I'm one of those guys with over 1k games who still arent masters T.T so please help me out.
Edit:Oh and please say your skill level honestly I think anyone below masters doesnt knows what he's doing, so that includes me. But throw it in anyway just say your league so I know the level of the advice :-).
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 20 2011 23:33 Bojas wrote:Sup fellow terran bro's // Link of the replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?1294iheyjzkbhy4For lazy people who still want to help, check out my opener, push and what this guy did @14:20I'm one of those guys with over 1k games who still arent masters T.T so please help me out. Edit:Oh and please say your skill level honestly I think anyone below masters doesnt knows what he's doing, so that includes me. But throw it in anyway just say your league so I know the level of the advice :-).
My computer doesn't interact well with mediafire. could you use drop.sc or a similar site?
thanks
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Damn it, I'm just so weak in the early game ... I think I'm doing the build pretty good, but at 5:30 he has 4-5 zealots up my base and I only have two marines and one tank that's still being built. I just can't figure out what the hell is going on anymore. I need a different build, one that doesn't fast expo, but just has a decent army and has a better timing for the expo (during a push or something). Blazinghand, do you have any tips? I have a replay, but I'm just not confident in anymore. It's not just losing, I can understand that, but losing like this, without having anything while the opponent has so much more units. It's just sad...
Replay:
http://drop.sc/36452
Edit: I'm being told that it was a 2 gate rush and that I should have scouted it. I'd like to know how to scout this rush and if it's an all in or not?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 21 2011 01:26 KenDM wrote:Damn it, I'm just so weak in the early game ... I think I'm doing the build pretty good, but at 5:30 he has 4-5 zealots up my base and I only have two marines and one tank that's still being built. I just can't figure out what the hell is going on anymore. I need a different build, one that doesn't fast expo, but just has a decent army and has a better timing for the expo (during a push or something). Blazinghand, do you have any tips? I have a replay, but I'm just not confident in anymore. It's not just losing, I can understand that, but losing like this, without having anything while the opponent has so much more units. It's just sad... Replay: http://drop.sc/36452
I'll be able to take a look when I'm free this evening. If a dude is massing up and rushing you with zealots, having a bunker or two helps a lot. If you can't have a bunker up in time, having a wall also helps.
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On September 21 2011 01:26 KenDM wrote:Damn it, I'm just so weak in the early game ... I think I'm doing the build pretty good, but at 5:30 he has 4-5 zealots up my base and I only have two marines and one tank that's still being built. I just can't figure out what the hell is going on anymore. I need a different build, one that doesn't fast expo, but just has a decent army and has a better timing for the expo (during a push or something). Blazinghand, do you have any tips? I have a replay, but I'm just not confident in anymore. It's not just losing, I can understand that, but losing like this, without having anything while the opponent has so much more units. It's just sad... Replay: http://drop.sc/36452 Watched the replay, he opens 2 gateways before core.
When you scout him, make sure you have a walloff if you didnt made one at the start throw up 2 supply depots and a bunker. Make sure to scout around after that with your scv to see if he's gassing if he isn't then keep scvs at your walloff and lol at the dieing zealots after that youre so far ahead you have probably won.
So basically everything went wrong when you didnt pull scvs to repair your wallin.
You have to be marineking to beat a 2 gate zealot opener without walloff or bunker.
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Hello guys, I just recently got into SC2 again after quitting due to freaking hating TvT to death lol... anyway I still watch the game alot and I just can't resist starting to play it again as I really want to become good! When I quit (about 1 month ago or 1½) I was high plat (my friend played my placement match after the ladder lock and I got diamond zzzz) and I honestly pretty much only lost TvTs...
Now, I've seen the metagame shifting towards Hellion, Tank and Vikings lately, I absolutely HATE mech, thus I want to play bio.
This brings me to the question that I came here to ask; is there any good bio builds that you guys know of? Some good timings, the basic playstyle and what you have to do to win with the bio playstyle in TvT? Any replays of some bio TvT would be amazing too!
Thanks in advance! (A PM would be awesome btw!)
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 21 2011 02:04 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:26 KenDM wrote:Damn it, I'm just so weak in the early game ... I think I'm doing the build pretty good, but at 5:30 he has 4-5 zealots up my base and I only have two marines and one tank that's still being built. I just can't figure out what the hell is going on anymore. I need a different build, one that doesn't fast expo, but just has a decent army and has a better timing for the expo (during a push or something). Blazinghand, do you have any tips? I have a replay, but I'm just not confident in anymore. It's not just losing, I can understand that, but losing like this, without having anything while the opponent has so much more units. It's just sad... Replay: http://drop.sc/36452 Watched the replay, he opens 2 gateways before core. When you scout him, make sure you have a walloff if you didnt made one at the start throw up 2 supply depots and a bunker. Make sure to scout around after that with your scv to see if he's gassing if he isn't then keep scvs at your walloff and lol at the dieing zealots after that youre so far ahead you have probably won. So basically everything went wrong when you didnt pull scvs to repair your wallin. You have to be marineking to beat a 2 gate zealot opener without walloff or bunker.
The reasoning here is that, without a cyber core, protoss can only make zealots. If he's making a 2nd gateway before cyber core he's making a LOT of zealots, since he has two of them and or a while they can only make zealots. So if you see 2 gates, it means he's zealot rushing you.
On September 21 2011 02:53 sereniity wrote: Hello guys, I just recently got into SC2 again after quitting due to freaking hating TvT to death lol... anyway I still watch the game alot and I just can't resist starting to play it again as I really want to become good! When I quit (about 1 month ago or 1½) I was high plat (my friend played my placement match after the ladder lock and I got diamond zzzz) and I honestly pretty much only lost TvTs...
Now, I've seen the metagame shifting towards Hellion, Tank and Vikings lately, I absolutely HATE mech, thus I want to play bio.
This brings me to the question that I came here to ask; is there any good bio builds that you guys know of? Some good timings, the basic playstyle and what you have to do to win with the bio playstyle in TvT? Any replays of some bio TvT would be amazing too!
Thanks in advance! (A PM would be awesome btw!)
Playing pure bio TvT is pretty tough. On big maps, you want to open with a fast expand, and get quick medivacs. You'll be much more mobile than a tank based player, and be able to take your third, fourth, and fifth bases much more easily, but he will be able to hold ground better and his army will be more efficient. You want to use drops (with lots of marauders if he is going hellion/tank to take advantage of his immobility. Since you're spending less gas, get more upgrades.
Here's an example of bio vs mech play that I did the other day.
Replay: http://drop.sc/35689 VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/295278462
By using counter-attacks and drops to aggressively assert map control, you can try to pin your opponent and take hella bases. I do this and meet moderate success. On more chokey maps it's harder to use bio, especially maps with short rush distances where it's easy for tanks to get from your opponents' base to your base.
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On September 20 2011 21:04 KenDM wrote: Micro question: Stutter step/kiting/shoot move is the same thing right? More important question: Attack move, move stop, or move and halt. What's the best method? I used to do move and stop, someone told me to use the attack move. I'm not sure what the difference is and I can't find it on Google either... They all have their uses.
Move+Hold Position is good because it allows you to maintain a tight ball while stutter stepping. However it can be bad, because if your opponent retreats you units just stand there like idiots instead of giving chase or running further away. So its good vs non AOE melee units like Zealots and Zerglings, but bad vs everything else.
Move+Stop is the complement to Move+Hold Position. Its bad vs melee units because your units will fan out while stutterstepping, exposing more surface area to the enemy. But its good vs ranged units because your units will give chase against retreats, and fanning out is good vs ranged units. However it can be bad because if the enemy is kiting too with faster ranged units (like Stalkers) your army can get split up because only the front half of your army gives chase. So this method requires you to pay more attention to the screen than the others (which can actually be performed on the minimap while you look at something else)
Move+AttackMove is good because it gets you the most consistency and accuracy. All your units will head in the proper direction, and when you get better at it you can stutter step+focus fire, which is really helpful vs stuff like Collosus. The downside is that it requires 3 actions instead of 2 (move click, attack key, attack click) so it hurts your ability to macro and micro other units. Also, if you have poor accuracy sometimes you'll accidently shoot your own units/buildings. I've seen many pros do it, and it always causes me to wince.
So tl;dr
Move+Hold Position vs melee units Move+Stop vs ranged units Move+Attack all the time if you're pro
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Can't find anything regarding the subject, how has the meta game shifted with the nerf to blue flames? Are we going back to the old school biotank medivac (or viking) build?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:02 deeshoo wrote: Can't find anything regarding the subject, how has the meta game shifted with the nerf to blue flames? Are we going back to the old school biotank medivac (or viking) build?
It's hard to tell. Honestly, I'd say you should just play a bunch of games and find out. Hellions went from 25 damage to 19 (with blue flame) against marines-- this means it takes 3 shots instead of 2 to kill a marine, or a stimmed combat shield marine. It takes 4 shots instead of 3 to kill a combat shield marine. It still takes 2 shots to killed a non-combat shield stimmed marine.
Whether this makes a big difference is hard to tell. Hellions are still as fast, and almost as effective against workers, and still as good at tanking damage for tanks as they were before.
My initial thought is that full mech is still viable, but I won't know until I play plenty of TvTs to test it out.
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I have a quick question regarding the 1-1-1 build, specifically for the TvZ match up.
How come not as many pros choose to go this route in the meta game?
I don't mean blue flame drop, more so the a cloaked banshee build?
Is it because it's easy for zerg to counter, or just hard to follow up, or is it because if you don't do damage it's hard to follow up in a macro game?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 21 2011 07:13 LedFarmer wrote: I have a quick question regarding the 1-1-1 build, specifically for the TvZ match up.
How come not as many pros choose to go this route in the meta game?
I don't mean blue flame drop, more so the a cloaked banshee build?
Is it because it's easy for zerg to counter, or just hard to follow up, or is it because if you don't do damage it's hard to follow up in a macro game?
There's a number of problems with the build, but it's mostly that zerg players are getting extra queens. When a zerg player sees a 13 gas or gas-first (a requirement for this build, which basically can't be denied scouting-wise unless he's very unlucky), he knows that there's something happening gas-wise before an expo. Most of the time, this means reactor hellions of some sort. In the case of a 1-basing terran there are a lot more options.
That being said, a quick Queen #3 happens all the time on 2 bases for creep spread, fighting marines, transfusions, and anti-harass. A banshee can't fight 2 queens, and if a zerg player still hasn't seen an expo beyond a certain point from terran, he will stop droning (beyond replacement for building production) and begin producing queens, spines, spores, and roaches, even with no scouting information, because he knows that if the expo is that late, his only job in the game is to survive, and he'll win with his 2 base eco vs 1 base.
Basically, it's a mix: 1) it's counter-able and scoutable, 2) it's hard to transition out of, and 3) your expo is delayed substantially so you need to do lots of damage. Zergs make extra queens and at a professional level are rarely, rarely caught by surprise by banshees. By the time you have cloak he'll have spores up just in case or will sac an ovie to scout.
The deal-breaker, though, is the late expo. Most terran harass and pressure, even 11/11, gets a quick expo. Without a quick expo, you will never be able to survive against mid game zerg.
This doesn't mean banshees are bad at a regular person's level-- it's just that for banshee to succeed in TvZ generally relies on your opponent making a mistake. Pros rarely do so.
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