EPTThe 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build: When I finish the bunkers and have enough units to fill them with, what makes the choice of going tech lab on Rax or throwing down a factory? (Because in whatever matchup, I always go marines, so stim and shield are no luxury).
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 33
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
The 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build: When I finish the bunkers and have enough units to fill them with, what makes the choice of going tech lab on Rax or throwing down a factory? (Because in whatever matchup, I always go marines, so stim and shield are no luxury). | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On September 18 2011 19:01 KenDM wrote: Dear Blazinghand, The 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build: When I finish the bunkers and have enough units to fill them with, what makes the choice of going tech lab on Rax or throwing down a factory? (Because in whatever matchup, I always go marines, so stim and shield are no luxury). I actually usually have enough gas for both-- the one i start first is tech lab against protoss since he will kite you if you don't have stim, and factory against teran and zerg because tanks are so important in those matchups. BTW, I think the 2rax 3bunker is probably the least strong in TvT. has it been working ok for you in that matchup? | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On September 18 2011 20:15 Blazinghand wrote: I actually usually have enough gas for both-- the one i start first is tech lab against protoss since he will kite you if you don't have stim, and factory against teran and zerg because tanks are so important in those matchups. BTW, I think the 2rax 3bunker is probably the least strong in TvT. has it been working ok for you in that matchup? What order do you advise to use after the three bunkers are filled with marines? New rax? Tech lab? | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
and I get my expansion up quite quickly and safely. 15,5 gas 1 rax fe is pretty darned awesome. Now I just gotta work on the follow up after that, since on one hand I get quite a bit of mineral float a while after the starport (and then I add barracks), but if I claim the gas at my expansion after doing so I end up with too much gas and too little minerals, hm, tricky  Example replay: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-232262.jpg) Wohoo for terrible macro while performing an attack, that's the reason I like having the build figured out quite well up until 10-12 minutes, easier to macro in the background then... but damn, that macro was terrible when I attacked. Just looking for suggestions for follow ups after claiming the expansion + gas and adding those 2-3 raxes after the starport. Oh, and my current big weakness in TvT: doom drops. I guess I'll start placing turrets everywhere and make use of the oh so good and underused sensor tower... | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On September 17 2011 13:47 Blackknight232 wrote: I've been needing some help with tvz and i was wondering if anyone knows of good openers and how to deal with muta ling bling cause i'm losing to that way too much. I'm a fan of harassing zerg with the reactor "hellion/marauder pressure into expo" or "reator hellion expand" and transition into Marine/tank/Medivac. What I suggest, if you like this play style is to do the "Griffiths marine split challenge map" and practice that at least once a day for about a half an hour. I've been doing this for a week now and my splits have gone from terrible to something actually decent enough I have won games because of it. I love it when Zerg goes banelings now cause I know most of the time I can trade cost efficiently and more banes = less mutas! The way I think of this match up is to apply as much pressure as I "safely" can before the 10 mintue mark (You always see mutas around the 10 minute mark just like collossi). You could say I try to get the zerg to over react into spending gas and less droning before 10 minutes. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On September 18 2011 20:15 Blazinghand wrote: I actually usually have enough gas for both-- the one i start first is tech lab against protoss since he will kite you if you don't have stim, and factory against teran and zerg because tanks are so important in those matchups. BTW, I think the 2rax 3bunker is probably the least strong in TvT. has it been working ok for you in that matchup? And by the way, I'm not sure if I notice any difficulties with this build against T's. A big problem would be the tanks, but as long as I possess a watch tower and have my own tanks, it shouldn't be the biggest problem. | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-232298.jpg) My poke/"scouting push" is quite successful, I see all of his main base and my reaper gets 7 probe kills. However, the high amount of stalkers didn't set off an alarm, nor did the "where are all his resources going?" alarm go off properly. I miss his proxy stargate and I didn't follow my "what if he's not expanding...." hunch and didn't build any bunkers. Also, I got addons at an unfortunate time, which meant I had fewer units at the final battle. I'm still not entirely used to the follow up when it comes to this build, which led to some... gas problems. Also, to finish it off, I didn't even use stim in the last fight. D'oh. Note to self: bunkers are pretty much free, follow them hunches, think "where did those resources go?" ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-232299.jpg) I get a huge economical lead, I attack up the ramp of his natural (bad idea, forcefields, yo!), and instead of returning home with the survivors, I park them outside his base together with some reinforcements. He pushes out and kills it, I should've regrouped better and gone home, I was on 3 bases, he still on two. I had no reason to attack (I could've attacked before colossi but instead attacked when the first one was up). I assume that he's on two bases since I have a marine + a floating factory at his "should-be" third. I notice his third late, I have no idea of which tech he's doing since I assumed "I have more bases, I can sit back and relax". I didn't do any drops even though I couldve afforded it. I take out his third without any resistance, but now I'm way out of position, and his army approaches my main. I get maxed without any ghosts (that's not good!), going up against a chargelot/archon/colossi army that has a ~60 army supply lead - I have 95 scvs:s to his 30 probes. Due to his army supply and tech lead, he wins the big fight, and due to how close he is, my economical advantages means nothing. Note to self: Don't get maxed in TvP without any ghosts, if you do get maxed without ghost or have such an economical advantage, use drops! An expansion that out of position can easily be killed by using drops. Don't get caught out of positon (sensor towers are cool mmkay?), and also, take more bases (why not?), don't play in the dark just because you have an advantage, you can afford using scans and/or drops to see what he's up to. Don't attack when you don't have to, ramps + forcefields = bad, even if the ramp is wide... | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
Talking about a TvT. I played a hellish long TvT, tried to keep up my macro all of the game. Got tired and sort of went all in at the last moment. With almost 3/3 BC's, almost 3/3 marines, and a bunch of tanks. I just didn't have a single clue of how to approach the end tactics. Any tips? http://drop.sc/35911 | ||
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shoutout
United States105 Posts
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IMOrchid
Canada9 Posts
I was wondering if anyone knows MMA's TvT build order for reapers -> BFH drop | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
I've found it to be true that TvT isn't the best matchup for a 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build. What build do you advise me to learn for this matchup? | ||
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Sandwhale
United States20 Posts
On September 18 2011 18:30 MarbleGuest wrote: hi, in tvz, what can I use to harass the zerg late game? I can't use drops because of mutas and hellions are a little bit risky. I always lose in late game because I just let the zerg sit and drone up D:. Another question in tvz is that after I start with reactor hellion expand or a reaper fe what should i transition to tanks or bf hellions? I have a problem with tanks cause whenever i move out i get owned by speedlings+banelings. And in TvT what is a standard opening I should use which would be safe against most early terran pushes? (Bio rush, fast tank push) 1) In TvZ, generally drops are used to assert pseudo-map control over the game, even with mutas present. The idea is using drops to pull the mutas out of position in order to reposition your army into a better place, since you know his army is going to respond to your drop. The thing you kind of have to realize is that the main army engagements, Terran generally fights costs effectively if he is in a good position, but it takes a combination of distractions, clearing creep, and forcing him out of position to gain it. Something else to consider is multidropping and sending out 2-3 dropships at a time, knowing his muta ball can't really snipe all of them, all the meantime repositioning your main army of course. 2) The blue-flame or tank transition is completely your call depending on how much you want to harass. Blue flame obviously asserts more map control than regular hellions do, but you have to remember that your map control goes away once mutas are out, so you really have to limit his creep spread, threaten runbys, and of course do any damage you can without actually losing the hellions or else you've invested too much into it. The speedling/baneling problem seems like a positioning issue more than anything else; if you stim a marine far ahead of your army, you can't get completely off guard by his army and will have time to siege. Scanning ahead and clearing creep tumors is also an obvious way to not get caught off guard. 3) This question is kind of vague. 1 rax gasless expo into double gas tech is perfectly reasonable for defending anything as long as you know how to react to scouting information. In this case though, you can't really assert any map control, so you might end up in your main chilling for a while without actually landing your expansion. You also don't really have the means to harass your opponent very early on at all, and in general you just have to play very safe. A 1-1-1 one-gas expo lays down a 6-minute expansion and is probably the latest expansion that doesn't require you do to any damage to the opponent. Because you have all the tech in place, you can pretty much do anything you want from there. On September 19 2011 17:25 KenDM wrote: Dear Blazinghand, I've found it to be true that TvT isn't the best matchup for a 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build. What build do you advise me to learn for this matchup? Now I know I'm not Blazinghand, but I am a Masters Terran and a practice partner of his, so you can take my advice if you want to or not. There's a couple reasons why a 2-rax 3-bunker expand is less effective against Terran and that is because of (1) the quick availability to dropships to circumvent static defenses and (2) siege tank range being able to out range bunkers. Because of this, static bunkered marines just cannot defend you. There is one difference in the TvT match-up that is far more significant than the other two MUs, and that is the rally distance from his base to yours (Toss has warpgate, while Zerg has speedlings that close this significantly). Terran units are relatively immobile, unless your opponent plans on stimming all the way to your base or something. This generally means you can be one to two production cycles behind and still have enough stuff to defend a straight push, making your statics less necessary. In any case, it seems like you're going the (old) standard of marine/tank/viking, so instead of investing into three bunkers, perhaps invest into more production to just have more stuff to defend or taking earlier gasses so you can tech higher and get tanks to defend yourself from tanks and vikings to defend yourself from banshees and drops. If you need an absolute specific build order to follow I shall refer you to this article: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On September 19 2011 18:09 Sandwhale wrote: 1) In TvZ, generally drops are used to assert pseudo-map control over the game, even with mutas present. The idea is using drops to pull the mutas out of position in order to reposition your army into a better place, since you know his army is going to respond to your drop. The thing you kind of have to realize is that the main army engagements, Terran generally fights costs effectively if he is in a good position, but it takes a combination of distractions, clearing creep, and forcing him out of position to gain it. Something else to consider is multidropping and sending out 2-3 dropships at a time, knowing his muta ball can't really snipe all of them, all the meantime repositioning your main army of course. 2) The blue-flame or tank transition is completely your call depending on how much you want to harass. Blue flame obviously asserts more map control than regular hellions do, but you have to remember that your map control goes away once mutas are out, so you really have to limit his creep spread, threaten runbys, and of course do any damage you can without actually losing the hellions or else you've invested too much into it. The speedling/baneling problem seems like a positioning issue more than anything else; if you stim a marine far ahead of your army, you can't get completely off guard by his army and will have time to siege. Scanning ahead and clearing creep tumors is also an obvious way to not get caught off guard. 3) This question is kind of vague. 1 rax gasless expo into double gas tech is perfectly reasonable for defending anything as long as you know how to react to scouting information. In this case though, you can't really assert any map control, so you might end up in your main chilling for a while without actually landing your expansion. You also don't really have the means to harass your opponent very early on at all, and in general you just have to play very safe. A 1-1-1 one-gas expo lays down a 6-minute expansion and is probably the latest expansion that doesn't require you do to any damage to the opponent. Because you have all the tech in place, you can pretty much do anything you want from there. Now I know I'm not Blazinghand, but I am a Masters Terran and a practice partner of his, so you can take my advice if you want to or not. There's a couple reasons why a 2-rax 3-bunker expand is less effective against Terran and that is because of (1) the quick availability to dropships to circumvent static defenses and (2) siege tank range being able to out range bunkers. Because of this, static bunkered marines just cannot defend you. There is one difference in the TvT match-up that is far more significant than the other two MUs, and that is the rally distance from his base to yours (Toss has warpgate, while Zerg has speedlings that close this significantly). Terran units are relatively immobile, unless your opponent plans on stimming all the way to your base or something. This generally means you can be one to two production cycles behind and still have enough stuff to defend a straight push, making your statics less necessary. In any case, it seems like you're going the (old) standard of marine/tank/viking, so instead of investing into three bunkers, perhaps invest into more production to just have more stuff to defend or taking earlier gasses so you can tech higher and get tanks to defend yourself from tanks and vikings to defend yourself from banshees and drops. If you need an absolute specific build order to follow I shall refer you to this article: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE Sure I'll take your advise, with pleasure! I didn't want to sound rude to anyone, but it almost seemed this was Blazinghands thread XD So I checked out the Liquipedia page and it says this against T: "Playing against another Terran player while pursuing this build can be extremely difficult. It's lack of early defense against Tank pushes can be devastating, and responding according to what you scout is absolutely essential" That means I'll in the same pickle as I am now, bad against tanks because of lacking early defense. I'm not great with scouting and micro yet, which means I have to quickly and steadily push out with tanks (also have early tanks as my defense). That means that the late gas isn't really ideal for me right? I'm a bronze level player, so I'll try the build, but I can't waste time because I've got a busy life, so I place my trust on the more experienced players to advise me into a style that suits my level of (no) skills. I'll try anything that has a steady start, with medium aggression (because it requires less micro). I hope you can advise me something that fits my needs. I've checked out the liquipedia page for builds and I stumbled across. Also, they say scouting is the backbone of harassment builds, and that is what I lack right now. I just want to keep up safely macroing with a TvT player, all the while not losing because of bad unit comp choices. Once I get in Silver I'll try and do harassment builds and try and make my micro more gosu. So, I'm seeing this Siege expand. Liquipedia says that when Banshees come in, RaxReactor up. My question is this: What do you do with that scan you get on around 6:30? Save it until the 7 minute mark? Cuz last Banshee rush I lost, he didn't have a starport up at 6:40, in the replay he had it done on 7:something. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On September 19 2011 11:55 shoutout wrote: How do you deal with phoenix/collosus/zealot? I've tried massing vikings/getting ghosts/mnm but that seems to fail miserably.. what comp deals with this protoss build? I'd have to see a replay, but the answer is probably "more vikings", since he doesn't have surface-to-air attacks, you just need to overwhelm his phoenixes. On September 19 2011 00:28 Maxie wrote: Wohoo, managed to put together a half decent biomech opener for tvt - the viking pops out just in time for killing any banshees, I get siege mode at around 7:50 (so far it seems like this is early enough, though I'm sure something comes just before that..) when I have around 2,5 (lol) tanks, and I get my expansion up quite quickly and safely. 15,5 gas 1 rax fe is pretty darned awesome. Now I just gotta work on the follow up after that, since on one hand I get quite a bit of mineral float a while after the starport (and then I add barracks), but if I claim the gas at my expansion after doing so I end up with too much gas and too little minerals, hm, tricky Example replay: Wohoo for terrible macro while performing an attack, that's the reason I like having the build figured out quite well up until 10-12 minutes, easier to macro in the background then... but damn, that macro was terrible when I attacked. Just looking for suggestions for follow ups after claiming the expansion + gas and adding those 2-3 raxes after the starport. Oh, and my current big weakness in TvT: doom drops. I guess I'll start placing turrets everywhere and make use of the oh so good and underused sensor tower... Sensor Towers are good. A few turrets with or without marines in the main to guard your production facilities doesn't hurt either. If you do use a sensor tower, make sure you pay attention to the minimap-- some people will try to doom drop you anyways. On September 19 2011 04:51 Maxie wrote: Two TvP losses: + Show Spoiler + My poke/"scouting push" is quite successful, I see all of his main base and my reaper gets 7 probe kills. However, the high amount of stalkers didn't set off an alarm, nor did the "where are all his resources going?" alarm go off properly. I miss his proxy stargate and I didn't follow my "what if he's not expanding...." hunch and didn't build any bunkers. Also, I got addons at an unfortunate time, which meant I had fewer units at the final battle. I'm still not entirely used to the follow up when it comes to this build, which led to some... gas problems. Also, to finish it off, I didn't even use stim in the last fight. D'oh. Note to self: bunkers are pretty much free, follow them hunches, think "where did those resources go?" I get a huge economical lead, I attack up the ramp of his natural (bad idea, forcefields, yo!), and instead of returning home with the survivors, I park them outside his base together with some reinforcements. He pushes out and kills it, I should've regrouped better and gone home, I was on 3 bases, he still on two. I had no reason to attack (I could've attacked before colossi but instead attacked when the first one was up). I assume that he's on two bases since I have a marine + a floating factory at his "should-be" third. I notice his third late, I have no idea of which tech he's doing since I assumed "I have more bases, I can sit back and relax". I didn't do any drops even though I couldve afforded it. I take out his third without any resistance, but now I'm way out of position, and his army approaches my main. I get maxed without any ghosts (that's not good!), going up against a chargelot/archon/colossi army that has a ~60 army supply lead - I have 95 scvs:s to his 30 probes. Due to his army supply and tech lead, he wins the big fight, and due to how close he is, my economical advantages means nothing. Note to self: Don't get maxed in TvP without any ghosts, if you do get maxed without ghost or have such an economical advantage, use drops! An expansion that out of position can easily be killed by using drops. Don't get caught out of positon (sensor towers are cool mmkay?), and also, take more bases (why not?), don't play in the dark just because you have an advantage, you can afford using scans and/or drops to see what he's up to. Don't attack when you don't have to, ramps + forcefields = bad, even if the ramp is wide... I'll take a look at these in the evening in ~10 hours. As some initial notes, If you find yourself maxed in TvP, do a couple of drops to free up supply-- and if your opponent doesn't expand, you basically want to make a couple bunkers and a missile turret, because it's gonna be DTs, colossus rush, void rays, or some sort of warpgate allin. It could also be immortals. Teching up to starport also helps. Hi KenDM, sorry I've been out of touch this weekend-- I've had some real life stuff going on. I'll take a look at this replay this afternoon (in about 10 hours). As a general rule, if you and your opponent are having a standoff and you have battlecruisers, use your yamato gun to pick off some stuff from his front lines so you can siege up a little closer without getting shot. Keep on doing this and slowly moving forward with your tanks and vikings . Sandwhale basically has this covered, but if you want to expand as quickly, another strategy is to go for a strategy like  Siege Expand (vs. Terran) which gives you quick access to tanks and a starport after you expo. The main threats to a 2 rax 3 bunker FE are tanks, which outrange bunkers, and quick dropships or banshees which go around them. Getting tanks of your own and some vikings solves this, but you want to expo fairly quickly, so you expo before your 2nd gas and your starport.BTW gentlemen this is the Terran Help Thread and anyone who is knowledgeable is free to help out. I just have some free time and respond to a lot of the stuff  | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
I can't find a replay of this build. Usually, as Day9 says, I steal the build by watching a replay and use it as a benchmark @ x:xx have this many units and structures. Also. Most builds stop at the expo, while Day9 says that you should also know what to build post expo (this is what gets me hard by the way, I'm always without a mid-game plan!) Hmmmm. I was wondering. Instead of doing a 2Rax 3Bunker FE. Would it be okay to use the siege expand versus Z and P as well? I get the bunkers give you surety. But if needed, I could always throw down a bunker if I scout on time right? And also, the word "transition" ... I know what it means, but when exactly DO you transition into the next phase? When is the point that you're in the mid or late game? | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:32 KenDM wrote: Dear everyone, Hmmmm. I was wondering. Instead of doing a 2Rax 3Bunker FE. Would it be okay to use the siege expand versus Z and P as well? I get the bunkers give you surety. But if needed, I could always throw down a bunker if I scout on time right? And also, the word "transition" ... I know what it means, but when exactly DO you transition into the next phase? When is the point that you're in the mid or late game? Siege expand is a decent idea if you're planning to go mech in TvP but if you're just going to MMM then there's really little point. Siege expand will give you weaker economy than something like a 1 rax FE as well as slowing down any aggressive timings. Siege expand would be terrible in ZvT because siege tanks are pretty much inferior to marines + bunkers in the early part of the matchup. Obviously if you've been contained to one base you're going to siege expand...but planning it as an opening is inefficient. Transitioning is generally after a timing attack. So for example I might be doing a 2 ghost timing push against protoss. After I complete that timing attack is when my build transition will begin. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:32 KenDM wrote: Dear everyone, I can't find a replay of this build. Usually, as Day9 says, I steal the build by watching a replay and use it as a benchmark @ x:xx have this many units and structures. Also. Most builds stop at the expo, while Day9 says that you should also know what to build post expo (this is what gets me hard by the way, I'm always without a mid-game plan!) Hmmmm. I was wondering. Instead of doing a 2Rax 3Bunker FE. Would it be okay to use the siege expand versus Z and P as well? I get the bunkers give you surety. But if needed, I could always throw down a bunker if I scout on time right? And also, the word "transition" ... I know what it means, but when exactly DO you transition into the next phase? When is the point that you're in the mid or late game? Against Z and P you could use this strategy, but the idea is that you rush for tanks because you're worried about an attack that bunkers can't hold. Most of the 1-base Z and P strategies can be dealt with using bunkers, and it's easier to do that than to try to get up to a factory level tech before expanding. Against Terran specifically, a lot of builds are flexible and not fully-laid-out because you react to your opponent-- but there's still a general plan. For example, full mech has a plan like this: On one base, make a lot of hellions and vikings, and scout what he's doing. Expand quickly, and begin making tanks to be safe. Build up a lot of tanks and vikings, and dump some minerals into hellions. Get Siege Mode and Infernal Pre-igniter, and keep on harassing with hellions. If you begin to lose air control, make thors. If your opponent is just making biological units, aggressively assert air control and try to shut down drops. Or Marine/Tank/Viking sounds more like: On one base, get plenty of marines, and tech up to factory and take your natural. Get siege mode, and begin being aggressive with tank positioning, and drops using stimpack. Build up a lot of tanks and vikings, and dump minerals into marines. Use drops and marines for map control. If you see a lot of hellions, make marauders. If your opponent is just making biological units, be active with your marines and assert air control and try to shut downd rops. The main issue here is that TvT is the kind of matchup with all kinds of weird compositions, from hellion/banshee/viking to reaper/marauder/ghost.The general rules for TvT are: 1) get tanks 2) protect those tanks 3) take bases 4) don't get contained. | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
On September 20 2011 01:21 Blazinghand wrote: The general rules for TvT are: 1) get tanks 2) protect those tanks 3) take bases 4) don't get contained. You forgot air control :| | ||
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DaeWang790
United States74 Posts
In a sense, protecting tanks usually requires air control. Similarly, not getting contained needs air, or a lot of scans. :D | ||
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Grndr101
Belgium125 Posts
On September 17 2011 13:31 halpimcat wrote: Hi all, tvz question here. I've been having trouble recently whenever I try to push out of my base at around the 10-12 minute mark because more and more zerg players aren't as complacent as they used to be. I typically begin my midgame push with tanks, marines, and medivacs in an attempt to contain the zerg or snipe their third base, but have encountered difficulty with the zerg style of pure droning up till ~40 and then making some 50 speedlings before going back to droning. As soon as I try to move out of my base I'm surrounded by 50 lings before I'm a third of the way to my opponent's base. I know the tank/marine style necessitates a slow push with "leapfrogging" tanks, but I think slow pushing across the entire map is asking for too much (I at least want to start at the halfway point). How do I prevent this? I can try dropping, but that feels like a coin flip as z's can easily see the drops coming with good overlord spread, and if I choose to push a couple minutes later the zerg has started muta harassment and keeps me in base even longer. Is there any feasible way to push at my desired time (or close to it) without straight up dying? Or what are alternative things I can do once seeing the million lings outside my base to keep me competitive in the game? What I do is open reactor hellions, if they make lings then my 10 min push with combat shields, 2-3 tanks, 4 hellions and a bunch of marines, will deal very well with that. I only get medevacs later, which gives me a more powerful army comp. (react hellion>expo>3rax + fact) Having that many marines pretty much denies them from defending with mutas. The only trouble i run into is fast infestors(but that's managable with your siege tanks) and ling/bling into muta, but that is also managable with good micro. If the zerg overcomits to defence, just retreat back with your reinforcements and think about getting a third. And if you have siege mode, then you can't be contained. Just leapfrog your tanks to break out of it. My guess is that you need to work on your macro, which is probably the reason the zerg army seems so big. But yeah you need to be careful around the map, hellions give you map control early game against zerg, that's why it's my build of choice. | ||
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