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On September 17 2011 11:38 zanick wrote: I recently switched from zerg to terran and I've been doing 1 rax fast expand vs protoss, I was wondering how do you transition out of it. When do you build startport, additional barracks (past the first three) and ghosts? Also, I'd be interested in any good guides for TvP that are for BO or just directions past the point of the initial opener.
What buildings you make and when you make them are depend on what type of pressure you want to accomplish. Do you want to poke and punish a player who expoed and tried to tech to colo? Get 2 more rax, tech lab, engi bay, conc shells-> stim and push out with a bunch of marines, a marauder and an scv when the marauder pops. Send in the scv to make sure you don't embark on a suicide mission, go kick his ass if he skimped on gateway units.
If you suspect your opponent may be opting a safer build towards colo, quick medivacs may be a good option to stall him while you get your vikings up and take a third etc.
Get an idea in your head of what you want to do then you will know what you need to build.
I've been having trouble recently whenever I try to push out of my base at around the 10-12 minute mark because more and more zerg players aren't as complacent as they used to be. I typically begin my midgame push with tanks, marines, and medivacs in an attempt to contain the zerg or snipe their third base, but have encountered difficulty with the zerg style of pure droning up till ~40 and then making some 50 speedlings before going back to droning.
As soon as I try to move out of my base I'm surrounded by 50 lings before I'm a third of the way to my opponent's base. I know the tank/marine style necessitates a slow push with "leapfrogging" tanks, but I think slow pushing across the entire map is asking for too much (I at least want to start at the halfway point). How do I prevent this?
I can try dropping, but that feels like a coin flip as z's can easily see the drops coming with good overlord spread, and if I choose to push a couple minutes later the zerg has started muta harassment and keeps me in base even longer. Is there any feasible way to push at my desired time (or close to it) without straight up dying? Or what are alternative things I can do once seeing the million lings outside my base to keep me competitive in the game?
I've been needing some help with tvz and i was wondering if anyone knows of good openers and how to deal with muta ling bling cause i'm losing to that way too much.
On September 17 2011 13:49 alexlw92 wrote: whats a solid opening for TvP (on the economical side)?
also, when you 1-1-1, do you go gas-rax or rax-gas?
Economic tvp opening: 1 rax expand, followed by 2 more rax. 2 rax expand if it makes you feel safer.
Rax first is more economical, gas first not so much but your banshee comes about 30(?) seconds sooner. If you are going gas first you should try to hide that fact, as an opponent who sees the gas first opening will know to be more prepared for early tech shenanigans.
On September 16 2011 18:36 tobiexoxo wrote: Okay, so I've gone through this replay and picked out what was outstanding mistakes from me. Its a TvZ where the map is fairly divided and I lose to a big ultra bust. I have no experience in dealing with ultras used well, so I sort of scrambled and tried my best.
Im a plat level player who has been playing diamonds recently and this game stood out because I thought I was going to win. My plan was to hellion expo into tank/marine. Could I have performed a better build on that map?
hellion expand - the hellions do nothing (1 drone kill, no scouting) Should I push with more than 2 hellions?
11-13 mins,
some supply blocks
+1 vehicle weps late
13 miunute push,
lose 2 tanks on retreat - bad control/overstim like crazy
& my gas is so high, it always is in my TvZ?
15 minutes
main undersaturated
17min didnt salvage bunkers and move them forward (this would have really helped in the main engages later).
19min I see hive, assume BL and drop an extra SP (bad practice)
20 min engage
didnt hotkey tanks to focus fire banes, lost more than I should have
23 mins I scan the ultra cavern + researching, aim for marauders and drop 3 more rax
31 mins I felt ahead and over extended my army to deny creep/snipe infestors
Am I even playing the match up properly? Against a Z I feel at a loss once they're powering enough bases to remax insta, and dropping is so hard when mutas are around or infestors are left at bases.
Hi tobie, I took a look, and made a coaching VoD for you:
On September 16 2011 20:34 KenDM wrote: Hey Blazinghand what's up, sleep tight!
On another (Dutch) forum people are being annoying telling me I need to work on my macro a lot more. My arguments to continue learning more about scouting and enemy unit composition were:
As my mathematics teacher once said: It takes 20% of your time to understand 80% of your work, and 80% of the time to perfect that last 20%.
In other words, I don't think I'm losing a lot of games because of a bad macro anymore. I think (might not actually be true) that my macro is on par with the rest of my league. So I was thinking of having practice partners point out builds of the opponent and how to react to those.
You've seen a couple of my replays now haven't you, what do you think? I know that my macro always needs heavy attention since I keep forgetting to produce during battles, or during late-game or positioning of my army. I intend to making those steps better as I go, because my "perfect" macro could be thrown off by a surprise attack, but if I anticipate that attack, I'd be better prepared macro-wise as well.
What are your thoughts on what to focus on?
I think that at almost any point in your Sc2 career before you hit Master League, about half of your attention on "what to improve" should be on your macro.
For those at the low or medium level of play, macro is the most important skill to develop in Starcraft 2. Other skills like strategy, game sense and micro are all vital as well, but are contingent on a certain baseline level of macro to back it up, and without this level of macro you cannot win. However, pure macro alone will not win you all your games; you need a basic level of anticheese, and an understanding of how to control your units (ie, being sieged up, how to kill creep tumors and defend from mutas, etc). That being said, all skill levels being equal, macro is what you want to improve.
Macro shows, in broad strokes, where you are, and other skills only slightly refine that point. Macro is the 10s column on your speedometer and Micro is the 1s column; they can both make a difference but we all know which one is important. In this extended metaphor, I guess crisis management/anticheese is the clutch you use to start the car without stalling.
Any time you see a macro problem in your replay, make a note so you can fix it next time. Strive to have good macro in every game. Learn the other stuff, too-- but also learn Macro.
In the light of our previous posts I represent you a 9 minute replay of me getting warp prism raped @8 minutes
I had higher production etc... but he had me. I need a better anti-cheese sense. I'm so hopeless...
Non-comprehensive written summary: opener was fine when he scouts that quickly he's close positions I like to use the 6:30 scan rather than the 8:00 scan to scout he flew by the watch tower for 10 seconds try making supply depots around your base to spot for drops keep on making units during fights don't be afraid to pull scvs if you think you would lose without it 5 gates 1 robo on 1 base means an all-in.
Coaching for: Vertical
On September 17 2011 02:49 Vertical wrote: Hi, Mid-Low Diamond here need help in my recent losses
the 1st one being against Z i know i lost the big engagement near the end of the game two question is 1. how to prevent more miss positioning like that 2. given the supply count, i shouldnt lost that hard in the last encounter, but as a matter of fact i am, what went wrong at that last encounter ?
[url blocked]
the 2nd one is against a P i have supply lead before the 1st big engagement both worker and army but why cant i break his death ball given the supply lead my army seems to melt so easily what went wrong in the engagemeng did i dont produce enough vikings ?
[url blocked]
im really frustrated by losing streak this week maybe work just took my gaming sense a lot i hope u guys can download drom megaupload cause sc2replayed keep rejecting my replays and replayfu has unlimited load time as other 2 web, im just too lazy to register
thx very much
Hi Vertical, I took a look at your TvZ replay, and made an analysis of it:
Non-comprehensive written summary: if he has an ovie, he'll see your bunker rush; be a boss and wedge it in there so he can't attack your bunker easily
get vehicle weapons +1 as your first armory upgrade so you can 1-shot lings
stim 1 marine down attack and flank routes while pushing to avoid being owned.
use this marine scouting to not get caught unsieged.
Non-comprehensive written summary: 5 gates, 1 robo means an allin (especially on 1 base-- people been watching too much socke).
don't move out, just stay sieged up in your nat. If you do move out, don't a-move into his immortals, letting them get into range, then siege up after they're close. That will cause you to lose really hard.
On September 17 2011 13:31 halpimcat wrote: Hi all, tvz question here.
I've been having trouble recently whenever I try to push out of my base at around the 10-12 minute mark because more and more zerg players aren't as complacent as they used to be. I typically begin my midgame push with tanks, marines, and medivacs in an attempt to contain the zerg or snipe their third base, but have encountered difficulty with the zerg style of pure droning up till ~40 and then making some 50 speedlings before going back to droning.
As soon as I try to move out of my base I'm surrounded by 50 lings before I'm a third of the way to my opponent's base. I know the tank/marine style necessitates a slow push with "leapfrogging" tanks, but I think slow pushing across the entire map is asking for too much (I at least want to start at the halfway point). How do I prevent this?
I can try dropping, but that feels like a coin flip as z's can easily see the drops coming with good overlord spread, and if I choose to push a couple minutes later the zerg has started muta harassment and keeps me in base even longer. Is there any feasible way to push at my desired time (or close to it) without straight up dying? Or what are alternative things I can do once seeing the million lings outside my base to keep me competitive in the game?
Your opener is probably what is killing you. In TvZ, you HAVE to pressure the zerg in the early game, before you make the 10 minute marine/tank push. I may be wrong, but from your description (you say zergs who purely drone up to 40 is killing you), I think you are doing too economical opening like the seige expand, which doesn't really have any attacking opportunities, it allows zerg to just drone up like crazy, and then have the economy to make 50 zerglings and just wipe out your attack. You need to force zerglings or spines or something other than drones in the early game, I think that is the problem.
Also, from your description, it seems like the zerg sees when you are pushing out and therefore has map control. I would recommend learning the reactor hellion expand into a 10 minute marine/tank push. The reactor hellion expand forces the zerg to make spines and zerglings (or else you can just roast all of their drones), denies creep spread, and keeps map control, so that the zerg doesn't know when you are moving out.
How I do the reactor hellion expand (I'm assuming you know the basic BO, you can find it on liquipedia if you don't know it): - go reactor hellion expand and pump 4 hellions. DON'T LOSE THEM. the hellions are essential for keeping map control and denying creep, I would say NEVER try a run-by with them, you don't know whats above the ramp and you could get surrounded without killing a single drone. do your best to kill creep tumors, but the most important thing is to not lose them and keep map control. - Make a techlab on the rax that made the reactor and then switch addons with the factory again, after making 4 hellions. - Take your second gas. - Pump out tanks and marines, research siege mode - add on 2 more rax, one with a tech lab and one with a reactor, and reasearch combat shields with the techlab. - Nonstop production with the 3 rax (2 reactor and 1 techlab) and the factory - you should have about 18 marines and 3 tanks by about 9 mintues with combat shields researched, move out and deny the 3rd and try to kill the zerg outright -You should start stim right after shields is done, you might not have stim when the engagement happens though.
On September 17 2011 13:47 Blackknight232 wrote: I've been needing some help with tvz and i was wondering if anyone knows of good openers and how to deal with muta ling bling cause i'm losing to that way too much.
12/14 rax with early pressure, into expand. try to lose as few forces as possible, if you make him spawn a lot of zerglings and even a couple spines, then just retreat. In the meantime, get two more raxes, double gasses, a factory, research stim, and then a starport
Push out at roughly 9:30 with stimmed marines, 3 tanks, and a medivac. if he has a 3rd going up, then kill it. if he doesn't then he'll most likely have teched to muta by this point and may or may not have a lot of zerglings to try and kill your push, be careful. Pull back if you're sure you can't kill him and get your third going. Setup a couple turrets in your mineral lines and you'll be fine from early muta harass between 10-15 minutes. If he gets a huge number of mutas then get thors and more turrets up.
The key to muta ling baneling engagements is to always know where his army is so that you're never caught out of position and unsieged, stim a marine to find his army, scan, do drops, whatever. If you have a good tank and marine spread setup, he can't break into your forces efficiently, or even at all. On the other hand, if he catches you offguard, then you're pretty much dead.
If you know where his mutas are, (i.e. in your base), then try loading up a couple medivacs and drop him in multiple spots. With good positioning, it'll be extremely cost ineffective for him to throw zerglings into your marines, and you might get a ton of drone kills or snipe some tech. It may also force him to bring home his mutas to clean up your drops, which gives you some room to start advancing forward and beginning a slow push.
On September 17 2011 13:31 halpimcat wrote: Hi all, tvz question here.
I've been having trouble recently whenever I try to push out of my base at around the 10-12 minute mark because more and more zerg players aren't as complacent as they used to be. I typically begin my midgame push with tanks, marines, and medivacs in an attempt to contain the zerg or snipe their third base, but have encountered difficulty with the zerg style of pure droning up till ~40 and then making some 50 speedlings before going back to droning.
As soon as I try to move out of my base I'm surrounded by 50 lings before I'm a third of the way to my opponent's base. I know the tank/marine style necessitates a slow push with "leapfrogging" tanks, but I think slow pushing across the entire map is asking for too much (I at least want to start at the halfway point). How do I prevent this?
I can try dropping, but that feels like a coin flip as z's can easily see the drops coming with good overlord spread, and if I choose to push a couple minutes later the zerg has started muta harassment and keeps me in base even longer. Is there any feasible way to push at my desired time (or close to it) without straight up dying? Or what are alternative things I can do once seeing the million lings outside my base to keep me competitive in the game?
Your opener is probably what is killing you. In TvZ, you HAVE to pressure the zerg in the early game, before you make the 10 minute marine/tank push. I may be wrong, but from your description (you say zergs who purely drone up to 40 is killing you), I think you are doing too economical opening like the seige expand, which doesn't really have any attacking opportunities, it allows zerg to just drone up like crazy, and then have the economy to make 50 zerglings and just wipe out your attack. You need to force zerglings or spines or something other than drones in the early game, I think that is the problem.
Also, from your description, it seems like the zerg sees when you are pushing out and therefore has map control. I would recommend learning the reactor hellion expand into a 10 minute marine/tank push. The reactor hellion expand forces the zerg to make spines and zerglings (or else you can just roast all of their drones), denies creep spread, and keeps map control, so that the zerg doesn't know when you are moving out.
Sorry, I should have clarified. My opening of choice IS reactor hellion, I typically make 4-6 hellions for map control and punish the zerg if they don't make spine crawlers to protect their natural. Otherwise I will keep them for map control, killing stray lings and creep tumors when possible.
I'll admit that my hellion usage could use work, as I usually lose them to lings around 50% of the time. But I'm curious if you think getting map control is feasible when it's 4 hellions vs 50 lings. By then it really becomes a map awareness/micro battle to see who can retain control, but imo the zerg has the advantage because that amount of lings can instantly kill all my hellions if I'm not paying attention. If the zerg is not paying attention he'll lose maybe 1/5 of his speedling army.
Most zergs on ladder don't use this style because the fear of blue flame is always on the back of their minds, but those who don't and who are extremely active with zerglings in the early game are very difficult for me.
Writing this post down I'm thinking maybe I should focus less on containing the zerg (I usually sit my hellions very close to my opponent's natural, near creep because I HATE creep spread) and more on keeping the xel naga towers, as it would be more difficult for mass lings to surprise me. I should try to keep a bigger effort on keeping my hellions away from sight. Is there anything else I'm missing here that could help my situation?
Thanks for the VOD's Blazinghand. Really helpful as a selfreflection! I'm a jobless student, but otherwise I'd take your paid lessons! I recommend everyone to watch a couple of VOD's of Blazinghand and see for yourself.
P.S: My macro was so "good" that on Rax couldn't keep up with it and started glitching out
On September 16 2011 18:15 cristo1122 wrote: How does one deal with a phoniex opening i marine expanded and he drops a stargate and starts making phoniexs which proceed to harrass my mineral line i then drop 500 minerals worth of turrets and by the time i move out he has charge lots and stalkers, he then procceed to make more phoniexs and then made heaps of HT anyway frustrating in the extreme.
Marines and turrets are solid against phoenixes. will need replay for deeper analysis.
On September 16 2011 17:38 KenDM wrote: Haha @Blazinghand. That 1 gas banshee rush is your favorite isn't it
What are your thoughts on the iEchoic build? Fast 2 factories and 2 starports.
Day9 daily #258
I'm not going to forsake the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE yet, but I'm thinking of transitioning into this style of play as fast as I can with the build I'm doing right now. I was wondering if you have any tips on what I could focus on, and what NOT to do.
tankless style is not recommended past 2 bases unless you have a LOT of apm. Consider learning this style after you're comfortable with marine tank, because you need to understand how marine/tank/viking works to understand this. Also, you need like 20-30 apm more to execute it because you use fast units that never stop moving.
So I did some thinking on it, and I could see tankless play on certain maps with a lot of possibility for counter attacks, like backwater glutch:
By using counter-attacks and drops to aggressively assert map control, you can try to pin your opponent and take hella bases. I do this and meet moderate success. This is probably the only sort of tankless play that can happen on multiple bases.
Does anyone know some good Day9 video's for me to watch? Some Terran newbie Tuesdays perhaps? Something that goes beyond the early game, but doesn't focus too much on micro, just gameplanning generally.
On September 17 2011 13:31 halpimcat wrote: Hi all, tvz question here.
I've been having trouble recently whenever I try to push out of my base at around the 10-12 minute mark because more and more zerg players aren't as complacent as they used to be. I typically begin my midgame push with tanks, marines, and medivacs in an attempt to contain the zerg or snipe their third base, but have encountered difficulty with the zerg style of pure droning up till ~40 and then making some 50 speedlings before going back to droning.
As soon as I try to move out of my base I'm surrounded by 50 lings before I'm a third of the way to my opponent's base. I know the tank/marine style necessitates a slow push with "leapfrogging" tanks, but I think slow pushing across the entire map is asking for too much (I at least want to start at the halfway point). How do I prevent this?
I can try dropping, but that feels like a coin flip as z's can easily see the drops coming with good overlord spread, and if I choose to push a couple minutes later the zerg has started muta harassment and keeps me in base even longer. Is there any feasible way to push at my desired time (or close to it) without straight up dying? Or what are alternative things I can do once seeing the million lings outside my base to keep me competitive in the game?
Your opener is probably what is killing you. In TvZ, you HAVE to pressure the zerg in the early game, before you make the 10 minute marine/tank push. I may be wrong, but from your description (you say zergs who purely drone up to 40 is killing you), I think you are doing too economical opening like the seige expand, which doesn't really have any attacking opportunities, it allows zerg to just drone up like crazy, and then have the economy to make 50 zerglings and just wipe out your attack. You need to force zerglings or spines or something other than drones in the early game, I think that is the problem.
Also, from your description, it seems like the zerg sees when you are pushing out and therefore has map control. I would recommend learning the reactor hellion expand into a 10 minute marine/tank push. The reactor hellion expand forces the zerg to make spines and zerglings (or else you can just roast all of their drones), denies creep spread, and keeps map control, so that the zerg doesn't know when you are moving out.
How I do the reactor hellion expand (I'm assuming you know the basic BO, you can find it on liquipedia if you don't know it): - go reactor hellion expand and pump 4 hellions. DON'T LOSE THEM. the hellions are essential for keeping map control and denying creep, I would say NEVER try a run-by with them, you don't know whats above the ramp and you could get surrounded without killing a single drone. do your best to kill creep tumors, but the most important thing is to not lose them and keep map control. - Make a techlab on the rax that made the reactor and then switch addons with the factory again, after making 4 hellions. - Take your second gas. - Pump out tanks and marines, research siege mode - add on 2 more rax, one with a tech lab and one with a reactor, and reasearch combat shields with the techlab. - Nonstop production with the 3 rax (2 reactor and 1 techlab) and the factory - you should have about 18 marines and 3 tanks by about 9 mintues with combat shields researched, move out and deny the 3rd and try to kill the zerg outright -You should start stim right after shields is done, you might not have stim when the engagement happens though.
that's also the build that demuslim uses, and it's really, really strong even at high masters, people outright die even if your goal is to get a 3rd and deny his
I'm a newcomer to the forums, and I'm of course a Terran player lol. I've been having some issues with my TvT and my TvP; my standard build for TvT is 1 Rax CC but I might need to get a new build and just 1 Rax CC on Macro Maps.
My TvP I 2 Rax FE and I'm so lost lol; I can't hit the 11 min timing push at all, and in my 6:30 timing push, I try to contain the Toss if he FFs the ramp but he just goes fast collosus. Even worse, sometimes he splits up my army when I try and push up the ramp and I'm screwed.
I'm a plat Terran, and I want to discuss dealing with zealots in TvP when you're going marine+tank. I'm open to all ideas.
Here is my method (which I do not claim, since it is mostly common sense):
The most common build that protoss players use to win against my marine + tank ball is zealot + archon. This may not be the same for all, but I am having trouble with this comp.
Getting Ghosts helps with the archons, but the zealots are always a threat to my tanks. To counter this, I build a ridiculously thick wall at my natural. I build a command center and a few barracks to ensure that no zealots can run into my tanks.
This has worked well for me for two reasons:
1- If the protoss commits to an all in, and I see it coming, I can upgrade my command center to a PF. Even if it doesn't finish building, most toss players seem to focus it, so doing a mass scv repair on it soaks a LOT of damage.
2. If the protoss player doesn't push, I can use my new command center to expand.
I've been running into very few problems with this. One potential problem is taking the third, but so far it has been easy. I hope anyone else who uses marine + tank will be able to benefit from this method.
I'm a newcomer to the forums, and I'm of course a Terran player lol. I've been having some issues with my TvT and my TvP; my standard build for TvT is 1 Rax CC but I might need to get a new build and just 1 Rax CC on Macro Maps.
My TvP I 2 Rax FE and I'm so lost lol; I can't hit the 11 min timing push at all, and in my 6:30 timing push, I try to contain the Toss if he FFs the ramp but he just goes fast collosus. Even worse, sometimes he splits up my army when I try and push up the ramp and I'm screwed.
Help?
Thanks
If you're on two bases and your opponent the protoss is on one base, do not try to push up his ramp unless it's tal'darim altar. If you're gonna do anything, just hang out in his natural or something and build the counter-unit to whatever he's doing (vikings, ghosts, etc)-- since you're on 2 base and hes on 1 base youll be fine.
On September 18 2011 04:32 Adrenalinz wrote: I'm a plat Terran, and I want to discuss dealing with zealots in TvP when you're going marine+tank. I'm open to all ideas.
Here is my method (which I do not claim, since it is mostly common sense):
The most common build that protoss players use to win against my marine + tank ball is zealot + archon. This may not be the same for all, but I am having trouble with this comp.
Getting Ghosts helps with the archons, but the zealots are always a threat to my tanks. To counter this, I build a ridiculously thick wall at my natural. I build a command center and a few barracks to ensure that no zealots can run into my tanks.
This has worked well for me for two reasons:
1- If the protoss commits to an all in, and I see it coming, I can upgrade my command center to a PF. Even if it doesn't finish building, most toss players seem to focus it, so doing a mass scv repair on it soaks a LOT of damage.
2. If the protoss player doesn't push, I can use my new command center to expand.
I've been running into very few problems with this. One potential problem is taking the third, but so far it has been easy. I hope anyone else who uses marine + tank will be able to benefit from this method.
Walling is a good method and it lets you defend quite effectively as a supplement to tanks. Unfortunately, walls are on that short list of "things that are less mobile than siege tanks" and do not allow you to be aggressive. Against a terran player who is spamming tanks and walling, a wise protoss player will take a quick 3rd, so be aware of this when using a tank/wall defense.
Would you say that marine tank is still viable in TvT, or will be post patch? I just keep finding that I prefer it, but I'm not too certain as to wether it's a good idea or not to go that route.
On September 18 2011 07:36 Maxie wrote: Would you say that marine tank is still viable in TvT, or will be post patch? I just keep finding that I prefer it, but I'm not too certain as to wether it's a good idea or not to go that route.
Biomech is currently viable in TvT. the only thing is that if your opponent is going hellion/Tank, you'll want to add tech labs to your rax and make marauders instead of marines-- you need marauders to stop hellion drops, since hellions eat marines. marauders will also let you harass, and he'll have to commit something besides hellions to stopping it.
hi, in tvz, what can I use to harass the zerg late game? I can't use drops because of mutas and hellions are a little bit risky. I always lose in late game because I just let the zerg sit and drone up D:.
Another question in tvz is that after I start with reactor hellion expand or a reaper fe what should i transition to tanks or bf hellions? I have a problem with tanks cause whenever i move out i get owned by speedlings+banelings.
And in TvT what is a standard opening I should use which would be safe against most early terran pushes? (Bio rush, fast tank push)
EPT
