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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On September 22 2011 06:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:35 crocodile wrote:
As a general gameplan in TvZ, can someone evaluate the viability of following up 2 rax aggression into 4 rax pressure with a 2 Factory tank slow push while taking a third and getting Starports up?
I feel like this is a good general plan for the matchup, but can someone has more experience with this style evaluate this style for me? And if possible, compare to a more standard 1 Factory 1 Starport follow up? My reasoning is that I just never feel like I have enough siege tanks if I follow up with only 1 Factory and I don't see why we need Starport tech until later when we want to do lots of drops.
Is this particularly strong against a specific type of play by the Zerg, in which case I can do it more reactively? Thanks in advance! The reason for the starport while on 2 bases is to get medivacs. Even if you don't use them as dropships, they let you stim. The reason you don't go for 2 tech lab factories on 2 bases is that medivacs use up the spare gas. Lastly, tanks are there for the large part to support your marines-- you're getting double infantry upgrades basically anyways, and relying on stimpack and lots of marines for your damage output. The tanks will ward off infestors and banelings and let your marines really do the damage. Being able to stim (and heal) liberally due to medivacs helps a lot. Going for a 2nd factory instead of medivacs is strong against zerg play that doesn't get mutalisks. You'll often find yourself stimming defensively to fight mutalisks, and without medivacs, this is very damaging to your army. If he's not using mutalisks, you only need to stim for direct confrontations. Remember, you only need like 3 siege tanks at first-- just enough to snipe clumps of banelings, the occasional infestor, or to provide some splash in the event of a straight-up fight with a roach/ling player.
Thanks! In that case, what is a good way to know whether or not they are going Mutas? Is there a specific scan time or something that I can use?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 20 2011 23:33 Bojas wrote:Sup fellow terran bro's With the recent macro analyser I've been hammering on my macro like hell I think its improving my skill level by a bit. Not as much my build order or push timings. Ive had the chance to play a master player which I don't oftently get, I think my terran skill level is like low diamondish. I would like to ask people for help vs people who do the ling infestor style where they fungal everything with the lings being the meat shield. My own analysis of the game: I open reactor hellion FE (not how a progamer would do it, I executed it a bit worse) I dont do any particular damage with the hellions but I got map control, my expansion and some pretty fast tanks. I push at 10:30 with 24 stimmed marines , 3 hellions and 4 tanks. The push is decently succesfull, I take out the zergs third kill all of his lings lose my tanks but 1 tank, and keep almost all my rines. I retreat and get my third up, I move out and right as I move out of my natural my marines get fungalled and the rest taken out. I think this is the important part of the game as I lose straight away with him barely having a scratch. I am not sayingIi played well this game but i'd love some feedback on any mistakes beside forgetting combat shields, misrallying 5 scvs. As I was ahead until he just plainly killed me and I felt I really was plauying better then this guy for the first 10 minutes. I am pretty sure I am doing something very wrong or its just the mistakes all together that I have already seen. Link of the replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?1294iheyjzkbhy4For lazy people who still want to help, check out my opener, push and what this guy did @14:20I'm one of those guys with over 1k games who still arent masters T.T so please help me out. Edit:Oh and please say your skill level honestly I think anyone below masters doesnt knows what he's doing, so that includes me. But throw it in anyway just say your league so I know the level of the advice :-).
I've reviewed your replay and made a coaching VoD. You can access it here:
http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/295674816
Non-comprehensive written notes:
1) if you make hellions, don't let them hang out in your base. get all up in his business so he can't drone as hard
2) you cut a lot of scvs, putting you quite behind before your tank push
3) during your tank push, you bank 1.2k minerals. Instead, kill your own rocks on the way out and slap down a p fort and a couple turrets.
4) after you take down his third, due to your underwhelming scv production, you're still behind economically-- he has like 15 more workers than you. Even having lost his third, his macro advantage is too great, and this is why you succumb. Try to constantly make scvs, and take a third on time, and this kind of push will win you the game since you won't be behind economically.
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Hi all,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=246905
This is uncle Dolans TvP mech build.
It uses Thors in the TvP match up, I was wondering how viable Thors are. I was thinking of transitioning from a Siege expand to Thor play in mid game, because tanks aren't that strong anymore outside the base against the big Protoss bio ball.
Questions:
Is using Thors advisable in TvP? What upgrade for the Thor to get? Armor/Attack first?
How many Thors are needed? Support Thors with Hellions? Sounds weird to me in a TvP, just make a smaller bio composition right?
How many SCV's should go with my group of Thors?
I know to make Vikings when VR's are suspected, but Thors can still be produced all the while, right?
What to do with P attacking defenseless bases? Thors are slow and can't come back fast enough.
Counters
What's the counter to expect against Thors? : Immortals, High Templars, lots of VR's, chargelots.
How to scout what counter he is going to use? The one I'm most scared of is probably the easiest to prodce: Chargelots.
What to do to adapt to these counters? I think VR's are the least of my troubles. I think Immortals and High Templars can be dealth with using ghosts. But what do I do against Chargelots?
The counter I'm so scared of secondly are Immortals/HT's. Because I haven't ever effectively used ghosts. Once in a TvZ game where I had a giant lead. How to micro ghosts properly is beyond me ...
Any tips and advice?
I'm now at the stage, where if my macroing allows me, I want to specify the Siege expand build so that I can transition into plays for different races. For TvZ and TvT I think keeping up with Tank/Marines/Medivacs (maybe marauders) is a good tactic. For TvZ I might go into Thors as well, but for TvP, I don't have anything solid yet...
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 22 2011 18:45 KenDM wrote:
Questions:
Is using Thors advisable in TvP? What upgrade for the Thor to get? Armor/Attack first?
Against Protoss, Thors benefit more from armor than attack, since they 3-shot most gateway units regardless of upgrades.
How many Thors are needed? Support Thors with Hellions? Sounds weird to me in a TvP, just make a smaller bio composition right?
You can support Thors with hellions, marines, and if he makes a lot of immortals and templar, possible ghosts.
How many SCV's should go with my group of Thors?
If you're all in, pull a bunch of scvs. Usually I'd try to bring like 7-8 though, since that's about how many you'll want.
I know to make Vikings when VR's are suspected, but Thors can still be produced all the while, right? Make vikings and marines/hellions. If you have money left over, then you can make thors with that.
What to do with P attacking defenseless bases? Thors are slow and can't come back fast enough.
Unfortunately this is going to be a problem for a slow-moving thor army. I'd recommend using planetary fortresses at bases other than your main and natural.
What's the counter to expect against Thors? : Immortals, High Templars, lots of VR's, chargelots.
How to scout what counter he is going to use? The one I'm most scared of is probably the easiest to prodce: Chargelots. He could use many or none of these and still be somewhat effective. He might just make chargelots + colossi (with a few stalkers to fight vikings), and as a composition it would be OK against thors.. He could also go chargelot immortal with like 1 or 2 VRs in there for damage output (and to draw fire).
Templar Archives means High Templars
Twilight council that's researching something means chargelots. Otherwise, could just be on the way to HT tehc.
VRs and immortals you have to scout by looking at his army or production structures.
What to do to adapt to these counters? I think VR's are the least of my troubles. I think Immortals and High Templars can be dealth with using ghosts. But what do I do against Chargelots?
Against chargelots, keep on getting attack upgrades for your support units, the bio. Alternatively, use blue flame hellions as a support unit.
The counter I'm so scared of secondly are Immortals/HT's. Because I haven't ever effectively used ghosts. Once in a TvZ game where I had a giant lead. How to micro ghosts properly is beyond me
If you have a spare control group, make that one "just ghosts", then during the fight, hit it and just slap down as many emps as possible down all over his army. Try to have like 5-6 emps stored up, and just make it so you have so many he can't dodge them. If you keep on trying this eventually you get better.
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Literally just watched bomber go 1 rax FE into 4 rax stim into 2 fact tank on terminus in gstl. Haven't seen the result yet, but the prime player appeared to have skipped muta for infestors, so you were definitely right on that point.
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*Just realized i responded to a post like 2 months old instead of going to the end of the thread oops ^_^*
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So I am a gold league Terran and I have a problem finding my flaws (of course I have a lot but specifically, something like you should expand more, more upgrades, etc) this game until he kills my third for the second time. From there on it's a downfall so I see a lot of flaws there and I don't think it needs discussion.
Two points before watching the replay.
1. My opponent was random, so I screwed my opening because I walled off for if he was zerg but got the gas for if it was protoss/terran.
2. I did a 2 rax. I know it's better to do reactor hellion in such a big map, but since I am bad and I don't play that much I want to focus in one build and improve from there until I get better.
So, any tips? Yeah, he caught me with half my tanks unsieged TWICE but even with that in mind we were kind of even. I overdid turrets, but I was desperate with his attacks at my third.
Help please: http://drop.sc/36917
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How do you harass a protoss who builds like 2-3 cannons in their mineral lines?
My marines and medivac just get slaughtered and only rack up like 5 probe kills, and that just sets me behind.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 23 2011 08:46 deathtrance wrote:
How do you harass a protoss who builds like 2-3 cannons in their mineral lines?
My marines and medivac just get slaughtered and only rack up like 5 probe kills, and that just sets me behind.
Drop a little away from his cannons, and have 2 or more marauders in your drop. Once all your units are down, stim and kill a cannon-- you should be able to take them down pretty quickly if you have +1 attack. You don't need to kill all the cannons, just one so you can get at the mineral line without being shot at.
Alternatively, you can harass pylons or tech structures if there are any nearby, or even assimilators-- as long as you do damage and get out without losing too much stuff it's a successful drop.
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Hey all Terrans outhere! 
First, im a Silver Player and i play Protoss recently, but i think about switching to Terran again(i played terran for some months before switching to protoss), i just love their units and the Strategys, but im not sure about switching x)
If i would switch to Terran, i would love to play that 1 Gate FE, or some Hellion build or something, could you guys tell me what really is effective these days in all 3 matchups and maybe give me some general tips?
I think i would come gold or higher easier if i play Terran, i dont know why, i just have a feeling :D
btw, i love demuslim's play :D
I hope this wont be deleted, im a noob and i just need some help, i hope you understand me x)
Greetz,
Tommyyy.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 23 2011 09:19 Tommyyy wrote:Hey all Terrans outhere! First, im a Silver Player and i play Protoss recently, but i think about switching to Terran again(i played terran for some months before switching to protoss), i just love their units and the Strategys, but im not sure about switching x) If i would switch to Terran, i would love to play that 1 Gate FE, or some Hellion build or something, could you guys tell me what really is effective these days in all 3 matchups and maybe give me some general tips? I think i would come gold or higher easier if i play Terran, i dont know why, i just have a feeling :D btw, i love demuslim's play :D I hope this wont be deleted, im a noob and i just need some help, i hope you understand me x) Greetz, Tommyyy.
Hi Tommyyyy,
If you're looking for a fast expand build that gives you access to tech and works in every matchup, let me recommend you:
The 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE
displayed here by Synystyr: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185963
Build order:
10 Depot
12 Barracks
14 Barracks (2)
16 Depot
15 Orbital Command
~22-24 Command Center -> Orbital when finished
25 Refinery x2
25 Depot (cut marines at ~24-25 until depot is finished. Should have 7 at this point.)
27 Bunker x3
Video Tutorial
In this video, I go over the basics of how to learn a build order, in this case, 2 rax 3 bunker FE.
On twitch.tv: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294524697
Embedded video (youtube)
+ Show Spoiler +
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Hi fellow Terran,
Thing is i'd like to have tips against this build i encounter a lot.
Protoss 15 Nexus.
So far i didn't find a good timing to punish them for the FE so as a result i endup way behind due to lack of macro.
-I tried to FE but they build up armies faster than me and ...
-I tried 2x FE but it's so risky and fails most of the time.
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On September 23 2011 13:08 Dilheisha wrote:
Hi fellow Terran,
Thing is i'd like to have tips against this build i encounter a lot.
Protoss 15 Nexus.
So far i didn't find a good timing to punish them for the FE so as a result i endup way behind due to lack of macro.
-I tried to FE but they build up armies faster than me and ...
-I tried 2x FE but it's so risky and fails most of the time.
If you see them 15 nexusing, and you haven't thrown down an expo yet if your gasless expanding, then just go for a 6-rax all-in.
Trying to out macro a nexus first is not really worth it, its better just to punish the greedy protoss by just killing him.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 23 2011 13:16 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 13:08 Dilheisha wrote:
Hi fellow Terran,
Thing is i'd like to have tips against this build i encounter a lot.
Protoss 15 Nexus.
So far i didn't find a good timing to punish them for the FE so as a result i endup way behind due to lack of macro.
-I tried to FE but they build up armies faster than me and ...
-I tried 2x FE but it's so risky and fails most of the time.
If you see them 15 nexusing, and you haven't thrown down an expo yet if your gasless expanding, then just go for a 6-rax all-in. Trying to out macro a nexus first is not really worth it, its better just to punish the greedy protoss by just killing him.
yeah 6 rax all-in is pretty good. I've also seen/done bunker rushes that transition into 6 rax all-in against nexus first. An early bunker (especially wedged between nexus and resources to reduce melee surface area) can be very strong if you can get marines in it and scvs around to repair.
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Okay, so, my TvP feels worse than ever. I just got hit by a 2base colossi attack and fell over and died. I feel like the only things I could have done was:
-less supplyblocks, I had a few.
-added more tech labs when I noticed the robotics bay (I usually do this).
-marine at watchtower, engaged him at a better place (attacked him earlier?)
-microd better.
Replay: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-233382.jpg)
FPVOD: http://sv.twitch.tv/maxie468eu/b/295778779
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That came down to you getting supply blocked way too often and your macro slipping. Making a really late factory, taking your natural's gas too late, etc.
Your angle of attack was bad but if you had macro'd better you would have crushed it regardless.
You also want to get 2 medivacs first so you can do a drop with them. That will buy you time to get more vikings.
Oh and remember to get a turret with that early engi bay especially since you didn't know what he was doing. If he had DT expanded you would have died.
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What is the best transition through the 11/11 rax. Normally I able to successfully assault the zerg's 14 hatch (able to get a bunker up with marines in it) but then he simply places down a few spines and kills it while his hatchery survives. Normally i go for the transition in "the Doctors guide" but when i do the standard cc 24 supply 2 raxes, double gas, it tanks, stim marines, it feels to slow and I can't pressure the zerg and the quickly drone up with creep spread. Can anyone please name a strong transitional build for this or do you think I am just doing the build incorrectly? Thanks
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TvP, what is a good opener ?
i seem to always get behind economically, or techwise if i fast expand.
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On September 24 2011 23:25 BoggieMan wrote:
TvP, what is a good opener ?
i seem to always get behind economically, or techwise if i fast expand.
These days I always open with fast Conc shell into expand vs. Protoss.
Rough BO, subject to refinement because I'm only in diamond:
+ Show Spoiler +
(never stop making SCVs)
10 Depot
11 Rax (used to be 12 before the Rax time patch, not sure if this is better?)
---> @ Rax done, 1 Marine
13 Gas
15 OC
(send an SCV out to scout)
---> @ your marine is done, get a Tech Lab on the Rax
---> @ Tech Lab done, get a Marauder and Conc Shells.
Depot, then another Rax.
Keep pumping 1 Marauder constantly. When your next rax finishes, build a Marine (keep building Marines out of this Rax if you decide to continue your attack).
Don't forget SCVs/Depots!
When your Marauder is done, you go cruising around the map towards the Protoss base (if you've scouted him/her) with your Marine, Marauder, and an SCV. Then a couple of things happen:
1.+ Show Spoiler + The Protoss player is doing some greedy build, like 1-gate expo. In this case, you can throw down 2 more Rax and go all in and win. If that's not your bag, you can stop making units, expand yourself, and enjoy your map control.
2.+ Show Spoiler + The Protoss neglects a Sentry in favor of a Stalker for early scouting and Stalker/Zealot pressure. Conc Shells eats this for breakfast. You can kill a Stalker for free this way, and if you keep producing Marauders you can pretty much kill all the units he/she warps in and you're ahead.
3.+ Show Spoiler + The Protoss player has a Sentry and is awake with a forcefield when you arrive at the Protoss ramp. Send the SCV up first... if you get force-fielded and see a Stalker/Zealot (especially if both), just back off and expand. If there's no forcefield or a badly-placed forcefield, you can power up the ramp and snipe the Sentry. If you get to the Protoss base early, he/she shouldn't have a Stalker with the Sentry, so you can easily pick off a Zealot or a stray Pylon.
Probes!
+ Show Spoiler +
If things are going your way and you're dealing damage, don't stick around for too long. A smart Protoss player will pull Probes to deal with you. Try to micro away and target-fire weak Probes, but mass up reinforcements instead of sending them in a line one-by-one. Probes can be fierce against Marauders!
Worst case scenario is there's a forcefield or two, you lose an SCV, and do no damage. No big problem... you have map control. Cruise around and start looking for proxy Pylons/Stargates/Dark Shrines.
Unless you know you can get an easy win with a 4-Rax allin, just expand, throw down a bunker (or two), and keep making units. You should have plenty of gas for a Factory or a fast Stimpack. Transition into whatever you fancy or adapt to any found proxies/subsequent scans and you're into a normal midgame TvP with roughly equal footing.
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(never stop making SCVs)
10 Depot
11 Rax (used to be 12 before the Rax time patch, not sure if this is better?)
---> @ Rax done, 1 Marine
13 Gas
15 OC
(send an SCV out to scout)
---> @ your marine is done, get a Tech Lab on the Rax
---> @ Tech Lab done, get a Marauder and Conc Shells.
Depot, then another Rax.
Keep pumping 1 Marauder constantly. When your next rax finishes, build a Marine (keep building Marines out of this Rax if you decide to continue your attack).
Don't forget SCVs/Depots!
You should be able to delay 2nd depo to after 2nd rax is building I believe. Take 1 guy off gas when you put down the tech lab and then put him back on when 2nd rax is building if you finding timing is tight.
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EPT
