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On September 21 2011 07:26 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 07:13 LedFarmer wrote:
I have a quick question regarding the 1-1-1 build, specifically for the TvZ match up.
How come not as many pros choose to go this route in the meta game?
I don't mean blue flame drop, more so the a cloaked banshee build?
Is it because it's easy for zerg to counter, or just hard to follow up, or is it because if you don't do damage it's hard to follow up in a macro game? There's a number of problems with the build, but it's mostly that zerg players are getting extra queens. When a zerg player sees a 13 gas or gas-first (a requirement for this build, which basically can't be denied scouting-wise unless he's very unlucky), he knows that there's something happening gas-wise before an expo. Most of the time, this means reactor hellions of some sort. In the case of a 1-basing terran there are a lot more options. That being said, a quick Queen #3 happens all the time on 2 bases for creep spread, fighting marines, transfusions, and anti-harass. A banshee can't fight 2 queens, and if a zerg player still hasn't seen an expo beyond a certain point from terran, he will stop droning (beyond replacement for building production) and begin producing queens, spines, spores, and roaches, even with no scouting information, because he knows that if the expo is that late, his only job in the game is to survive, and he'll win with his 2 base eco vs 1 base. Basically, it's a mix: 1) it's counter-able and scoutable, 2) it's hard to transition out of, and 3) your expo is delayed substantially so you need to do lots of damage. Zergs make extra queens and at a professional level are rarely, rarely caught by surprise by banshees. By the time you have cloak he'll have spores up just in case or will sac an ovie to scout. The deal-breaker, though, is the late expo. Most terran harass and pressure, even 11/11, gets a quick expo. Without a quick expo, you will never be able to survive against mid game zerg.This doesn't mean banshees are bad at a regular person's level-- it's just that for banshee to succeed in TvZ generally relies on your opponent making a mistake. Pros rarely do so.
Ok thanks for the quick response! Most of these were thoughts that were going through my head, but wasn't quite sure.
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Is a 2 rax or a 3 rax pressure better in TvZ?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 21 2011 07:44 Ksquared wrote:
Is a 2 rax or a 3 rax pressure better in TvZ?
2 rax pressure is considered pretty normal since it lets you get up a fast expansion. 3 rax pressure delays your expansion due to supply depot costs, the rax, and the extra minerals dumped into more marines.
Two common kinds of 2 rax pressure are the 11/11 (first barracks on 11 food, second barracks also on 11 food) and the economical 12/14 (first barracks on 12 food, no scvs cut, second barracks on 14 food).
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_Pressure_FE_(vs._Zerg)
the most effective form of the 3 rax attacks pulls scvs as well:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517
So really it depends: do you want a high-pressure expo into a macro game, or a 1 base all-in scv-pulling cheese?
As captain planet would say, the power is yours.
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Dia terran struggling with subpar TvZ TvT. Macro terran here 
TvZ- What is the most economical opening and Macro oriented opening/playstyle?
I've been favoring the 1rax fe into 3rax marinebunker, but I've been broken by bane busts countless times. After 1r fe I go for 3tank stim 1 medivac timing, then kind of falter after that push doesn't do enough damage.
Also need help planning tvz upgrades (in tvp I go +1 weap +1armor, when +1 arm is halfway I drop armory and engy for +2 +2 and +1 air weap).
TvT- I'm clueless about this matchup. Every game I either go 1-1-1 cloak banshee or 1rax fe into mech play. My macro is messy as hell here, would appreciate some BOs that carry on to mid-late game, and game mentalities.
TvP- I'd my tvp say is masters level, and I can give a bit of advice here. 1rax FE into 3 naked rax + gas is by far the most optimal build to go on most suitable maps, and is a tough nut to crack. 2rax is my preferred expo denier on bad maps, although very weak imo, and it must be done pretty much blindly. 1 turret at nat, 3-4 Bunker spam, good scouting, and quick scv repair holds off most 6min (4g 5g 3grobo) gateway pushes. I normally beat any tosses that expand in response through very tight macro and upgrade timings.
*I'd like some tips on how to hold off vr pressure.
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Hi,
As you may know, with the 5s delay on barracks build time, our orbital timing is messed up. Which do you think is better?
A. Halt SCV production for 5s and get orbital on 15 or 16 (After starting first marine)
B. Let the 16th SCV finish and get orbital on 17
I've also noticed in my testing that now with the delayed 1st rax, 1RaxFE feels different. You can either:
A. Get a 2nd depot, start orbital and get 400 min right about the same time your orbital finishes
B. Delay the 2nd depot and the orbital and complete the wall off with a 17CC (includes 1 marine in production), followed by depot and OC during slight supply block at 19/19)
Which 1RaxFE do you think is better? 2nd one makes me feel like a zerg going pool-hatch, lol.
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So I've learned to scout for early zealot pressure, which is no gas seen with my first scout, or the second building is not a cybernetics core. If this happens: pull SCV's for repairs.
How many SCV's are needed for repairs?
Second question: Is there a scouting algorithm of some sorts? If I DO see a gas from a toss what's up? I know that a double gas from a Terran is a Banshee opener. I know that a roach building also means bunkering up. Would be nice to know what the possibilities are for the opponent by seeing their opening and what my options of defense or alteration of my build are. This is really, really important for me, because I'm hoping to survive at least the early game consistently.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 21 2011 17:17 KenDM wrote:
So I've learned to scout for early zealot pressure, which is no gas seen with my first scout, or the second building is not a cybernetics core. If this happens: pull SCV's for repairs.
How many SCV's are needed for repairs?
Second question: Is there a scouting algorithm of some sorts? If I DO see a gas from a toss what's up? I know that a double gas from a Terran is a Banshee opener. I know that a roach building also means bunkering up. Would be nice to know what the possibilities are for the opponent by seeing their opening and what my options of defense or alteration of my build are. This is really, really important for me, because I'm hoping to survive at least the early game consistently.
If you see 1 gas from toss, that means 4gate or 1 gate Fe. If you see 2 gasses, it means
1) regular expo, with sentries or a robo
or
2) tech or gas allin, such as Vrs, immortals, void rays, colossi, DTs, or sentry 4gate
you can use a scan or a scout between 5:30 and 6:30 o determine if it's an expo or an allin.
P.S.: sleepy today, will handle responses to replays later.
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Nice. Can we work on recognizing some opening builds of all the races? I can't find much on liquidpedia, I'd have to manually look through all the races builds, it's a lot of time. It'd be nice to make an algorithm of some sorts, it'd help me out greatly (and I'm sure a lot of other people too).
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P is easy apart from weird cheesey DT play like with warp prisms etc. That shit is unscoutable.
Im still not sure how 3 gate proxy SG is scoutable, as it looks identical to DTs.
Apart form weird stuff. 1 gate expo is obviously scoutable, go look at the nexus. You can have an scv out until he has a stalker. You can see pretty much everything hes doing. Then poke the ramp and count sentrys.
If he happens to be hiding some, then i have no idea tbh. Noone does that.
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I'm beginning to like this game more and more every time I learn a little bit from it. I played a TvP, we both had massive armies, I thought I had everything under control, had a lot of Marauders, he had Colossi, but I had enough Vikings. I did see the replay and he had upgrades, but so did I, +shields +Stim, + medivacs healing stuff up + tanks backing me up at my base. I just can't see what went wrong here?
http://drop.sc/36654
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On September 21 2011 20:48 KenDM wrote:I'm beginning to like this game more and more every time I learn a little bit from it. I played a TvP, we both had massive armies, I thought I had everything under control, had a lot of Marauders, he had Colossi, but I had enough Vikings. I did see the replay and he had upgrades, but so did I, +shields +Stim, + medivacs healing stuff up + tanks backing me up at my base. I just can't see what went wrong here? http://drop.sc/36654
Macro. He had vastly superior income for the whole game! You want to upgrade the CC to an orbital immediately and pump SCVs constantly. Try to have 45 or so ASAP on two base rather than 25.
His army composition was much stronger than yours - just more expensive stuff.
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So I used to open 2 rax conc expand before in TvP with techlab first. Then I started doing other stuff but now I am returning to 2 rax expand again but with reactor first. I get the impression that this is more popular now but I really do not know. Which one do you think is best for both defense and being able to pressure the toss?
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15 or 16 OC now after the patch?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 21 2011 23:34 Maxie wrote:
15 or 16 OC now after the patch?
You have a number of options here. I've gone with 12 barracks 16 OC, because it doesn't cut any scvs, but it's possible that there's another way to do this that's more efficient; like a 12.5 barracks 16 OC, where you don't have to spend as much time waiting or something. I'm not entirely clear yet. I'll probably watch a pro player stream and see what he does to figure it out.
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Yeah, we'll get the answer eventually. I haven't been able to play yet, but does the hellion nerf seem to have a decent impact on TvT (biomech, or bio in general, being more viable)?
Also, I'm considering trying out red flame hellion drops in more than one matchup, after all 4 hellions can wreck a mineral line quite handily even without blue flame, earlier and cheaper. Hmm.
Oh and yeah, if anyone has any decent replays of mech in TvZ I'd highly appreciate it (or if there's a solid mech guide even), my zerg friend has issues with beating mech so I'm gonna try it out to A: beat him a lot B: help him get better against mech. C: maybe become like Goody, we all love siege tanks don't we?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 22 2011 00:59 Maxie wrote:
Yeah, we'll get the answer eventually. I haven't been able to play yet, but does the hellion nerf seem to have a decent impact on TvT (biomech, or bio in general, being more viable)?
I haven't seen a huge difference. Against 55 hp combat shields marines, it takes 3 shots of the new, 19 damage blue flame to kill them now, whereas when blue flame used to be 24 damage, it took... 3 shots. Against 45 hp regular marines (or stimmed combat shield marines), it takes 3 shots of new 19-damage blue flame hellions to kill, as opposed to the old 2 shots, which makes a decent advantage. not huge, but it's an improvement; hellions are still really really good against marines.
I think that bio-mech has always been viable, and I think that it's got a little more breathing room now than it used to against full mech, but the state of TvT will be otherwise unchanged.
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Hello fellow Terran,
I've been having trouble in TvP lately against a Zealot/ Archon heavy composition with a few HT etc...Any suggestions?? I've been going MMMG, but it hasn't been enough to do much even though I am usually ahead in supply. Thanks in advance!
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Hi all,
After yet another night of being 1-1-1ed in every PvT I've decided to abandon the Mothership and hop onto the Battlecruiser.
I am looking for some safe macro oriented builds without being too gready. I've already looked around a bit and this is what I came up with: Am I on the right track?
TvT: Cloakless banshee into expand into Mech. [this matchup I have no clue about]
TvP: 2Rax FE with very fast Concussive Shells into M/M/M with a lot of ghosts. Vikings where needed (about 6/7 for up to 3 colossi about 10/12 for more?)
TvZ: 2Rax into Double Gas FE. M/M/M/Tank+Ghost endgame. Start learning to split marines. :p
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Also: What maps I do want to veto as Terran? I used to veto Abyssal/Searing/Backwater.
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As a general gameplan in TvZ, can someone evaluate the viability of following up 2 rax aggression into 4 rax pressure with a 2 Factory tank slow push while taking a third and getting Starports up?
I feel like this is a good general plan for the matchup, but can someone has more experience with this style evaluate this style for me? And if possible, compare to a more standard 1 Factory 1 Starport follow up? My reasoning is that I just never feel like I have enough siege tanks if I follow up with only 1 Factory and I don't see why we need Starport tech until later when we want to do lots of drops.
Is this particularly strong against a specific type of play by the Zerg, in which case I can do it more reactively? Thanks in advance!
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:35 crocodile wrote:
As a general gameplan in TvZ, can someone evaluate the viability of following up 2 rax aggression into 4 rax pressure with a 2 Factory tank slow push while taking a third and getting Starports up?
I feel like this is a good general plan for the matchup, but can someone has more experience with this style evaluate this style for me? And if possible, compare to a more standard 1 Factory 1 Starport follow up? My reasoning is that I just never feel like I have enough siege tanks if I follow up with only 1 Factory and I don't see why we need Starport tech until later when we want to do lots of drops.
Is this particularly strong against a specific type of play by the Zerg, in which case I can do it more reactively? Thanks in advance!
The reason for the starport while on 2 bases is to get medivacs. Even if you don't use them as dropships, they let you stim.
The reason you don't go for 2 tech lab factories on 2 bases is that medivacs use up the spare gas. Lastly, tanks are there for the large part to support your marines-- you're getting double infantry upgrades basically anyways, and relying on stimpack and lots of marines for your damage output. The tanks will ward off infestors and banelings and let your marines really do the damage. Being able to stim (and heal) liberally due to medivacs helps a lot.
Going for a 2nd factory instead of medivacs is strong against zerg play that doesn't get mutalisks. You'll often find yourself stimming defensively to fight mutalisks, and without medivacs, this is very damaging to your army. If he's not using mutalisks, you only need to stim for direct confrontations.
Remember, you only need like 3 siege tanks at first-- just enough to snipe clumps of banelings, the occasional infestor, or to provide some splash in the event of a straight-up fight with a roach/ling player.
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EPT
