On August 06 2011 03:14 Complete wrote: How fast of a robo are we talking for 'fast 2 base colossus'?
Depends on how greedy you are. Following a FFE, if you don't scout any 1 or 2 base all-in, my first 150 gas goes to sentry and warpgate tech, the next 100 goes to robo (so basically nexus gate core robo). If you want to be a bit safer get 2 more gates first before the robo.
Then as soon as the robo is done, get a bay, and as soon as that's done chrono out your colossus. Attack when you have 2 with range, your gateway army should be relatively small and consist of mostly zealots with very few stalkers and sentries. This should hit way before the zerg has NP.
EDIT: Keep in mind I'm talking about blind countering infestor/ling builds here. This build is not recommended in most cases, since it loses pretty badly to muta (although you should be able to scout it with obs and adjust), and doesn't do very well against any standard 3 base roach/ling since you don't have as many sentries. If you do use this build and your opponent has roaches, I would delay this attack and wait until you have more colossus/stalker/sentry before pushing out.
So I'm guessing for a 3g expo this would be before your 2nd nexus is finished. Blegh. I'm having quite a hard time against ling/infestor but I feel like throwing down a robo that early with a 3g expo a) makes it a lot harder to stop a 20-30 drone roach/ling allin and b) is super fucking bad if they go mutas (obv I'd scout for those with halluc or something before i go colossus, but a lot of wasted gas still)
have a questions, what is the proper response to a 6 pool as Toss? I scout at nine, but even when I see it coming I often have problems knowing the proper way to act. Usualy I am going for a 13 gate when I see it. Should I drop a second gate, and pump zealots, try to get cannons or maybe something else?
I have pretty good luck dropping a second gate and chronoboosting zlots. Rally the zlots to your mineral line, and if the lings come into your mineral line, attack move with everythinga and just kill them. Don't stop probing, and when you can get a forge and +1 attack and a couple stalkers, and it's all over.
How do you deal with mutas if you are surprised by them, and werent able to scout it and six gate the Zerg. Cannons feel weak, while spreading out stalkers makes the front feel very vulnerable?
have a questions, what is the proper response to a 6 pool as Toss? I scout at nine, but even when I see it coming I often have problems knowing the proper way to act. Usualy I am going for a 13 gate when I see it. Should I drop a second gate, and pump zealots, try to get cannons or maybe something else?
I have pretty good luck dropping a second gate and chronoboosting zlots. Rally the zlots to your mineral line, and if the lings come into your mineral line, attack move with everythinga and just kill them. Don't stop probing, and when you can get a forge and +1 attack and a couple stalkers, and it's all over.
Why would anyone prefer to have a 6 pool defense with a wide open base vs, a defense that keeps lings out? He'll know exactly what you are doing without a wall.
On August 06 2011 03:24 Complete wrote: So I'm guessing for a 3g expo this would be before your 2nd nexus is finished. Blegh. I'm having quite a hard time against ling/infestor but I feel like throwing down a robo that early with a 3g expo a) makes it a lot harder to stop a 20-30 drone roach/ling allin and b) is super fucking bad if they go mutas (obv I'd scout for those with halluc or something before i go colossus, but a lot of wasted gas still)
I highly recommend not doing 3g expo, ever. If you don't feel comfortable with FFE, try 1 gate FE. The strength of 3g expo lies in the high and early sentry count, infestor/ling is pretty much designed to counter sentries.
On August 06 2011 03:28 KimJongChill wrote: How do you deal with mutas if you are surprised by them, and werent able to scout it and six gate the Zerg. Cannons feel weak, while spreading out stalkers makes the front feel very vulnerable?
I find a few cannons to be essential, they buy you time for your stalkers to arrive.
You don't need to "spread out" your stalkers, just have 2 groups of them, 1 in your main and 1 at your nat.
Get blink asap.
The other option if you already have a pretty big 6 gate army is to just attack the zerg. Even if you don't kill him, it at least puts pressure away from you so his mutas are busy defending and not harassing you.
On August 06 2011 03:24 Complete wrote: So I'm guessing for a 3g expo this would be before your 2nd nexus is finished. Blegh. I'm having quite a hard time against ling/infestor but I feel like throwing down a robo that early with a 3g expo a) makes it a lot harder to stop a 20-30 drone roach/ling allin and b) is super fucking bad if they go mutas (obv I'd scout for those with halluc or something before i go colossus, but a lot of wasted gas still)
I highly recommend not doing 3g expo, ever. If you don't feel comfortable with FFE, try 1 gate FE. The strength of 3g expo lies in the high and early sentry count, infestor/ling is pretty much designed to counter sentries.
I still like to do standard 3g expo. I go for collosus tech and use sentries as defense. Of course with the current meta game of ling infestor I would advise you not to push out if you 3g expo. Play a turtle-like style and get a good collosus or archon/tempelar count up, but I personally still mostly favor collosus. I've always been a very standard textbook player though. It has been working for me, and I still face many roach corruptor players though, as that is still very strong.
On August 06 2011 03:27 lazydino wrote: Is 3g expo really dead? Seems like people are using voidray expands ALL THE TIME now.
No, it isn't. 1 gate fe is still heavily punishable. 3g is still safest
On August 06 2011 03:28 KimJongChill wrote: How do you deal with mutas if you are surprised by them, and werent able to scout it and six gate the Zerg. Cannons feel weak, while spreading out stalkers makes the front feel very vulnerable?
i usually just buy time with a couple of cannons for blink and more upgrades and usually just attack when I feel my army could take his. late game tech swaps on the other hand, you should have a templar archives prepared or immediately put down after mutas are seen.
3g expo fell a bit out of favor because people were afraid of the losira timing, but it is still a really good standard build so long as you learn how to hold it.
edit: in general, in pvz you can expand off of sentries, cannons, void rays, or dts, unless you are 1basing. This depends on the map and personal preference.
On August 06 2011 03:27 lazydino wrote: Is 3g expo really dead? Seems like people are using voidray expands ALL THE TIME now.
Lol no. I beat Machine on ladder the other day on Shakuras with 3 Gate Expand.
On August 06 2011 03:47 chaopow wrote: I still like to do standard 3g expo.
Just because a build works for you doesn't mean it's an optimal build. You could just be good at PvZ in other areas. If you have a 70% win ratio PvZ using 3 gate expand every game, it could be possible that you'll have a 80% win ratio PvZ if you used another build.
3 gate expand sucks IMO.
EDIT: While 3 gate expand could be considered "safe," it's not economically safe because the zerg can just mass drone on 3 bases. A FFE can be even safer than a 3 gate expand if you just make 8 cannons. But no, no one does that because you fall economically behind. Same reasoning for 3 gate expand.
On August 06 2011 03:47 chaopow wrote: I still like to do standard 3g expo.
Just because a build works for you doesn't mean it's an optimal build. You could just be good at PvZ in other areas. If you have a 70% win ratio PvZ using 3 gate expand every game, it could be possible that you'll have a 80% win ratio PvZ if you used another build.
3 gate expand sucks IMO.
EDIT: While 3 gate expand could be considered "safe," it's not economically safe because the zerg can just mass drone on 3 bases. A FFE can be even safer than a 3 gate expand if you just make 8 cannons. But no, no one does that because you fall economically behind. Same reasoning for 3 gate expand.
Yeah though I don't do a 3 Gate Expo to be safe. I'm usually doing it to use my units to force a response from the Z and keep even worker count.
On August 06 2011 03:58 Anihc wrote: 3 gate expand sucks IMO.
EDIT: While 3 gate expand could be considered "safe," it's not economically safe because the zerg can just mass drone on 3 bases. A FFE can be even safer than a 3 gate expand if you just make 8 cannons. But no, no one does that because you fall economically behind. Same reasoning for 3 gate expand.
That's assuming the Z takes a super fast third in response to your 3gate fe.. i'm not sure how common that actually is. toss who 3 gate fe should be getting hallu phoenix and know it's coming so they can respond to it accordingly -_-
On August 06 2011 03:58 Anihc wrote: 3 gate expand sucks IMO.
EDIT: While 3 gate expand could be considered "safe," it's not economically safe because the zerg can just mass drone on 3 bases. A FFE can be even safer than a 3 gate expand if you just make 8 cannons. But no, no one does that because you fall economically behind. Same reasoning for 3 gate expand.
That's assuming the Z takes a super fast third in response to your 3gate fe.. i'm not sure how common that actually is. toss who 3 gate fe should be getting hallu phoenix and know it's coming so they can respond to it accordingly -_-
It's extremely common to get a third base up if the map allows it when a protoss goes 3gate. If you be highly aggressive with it then maybe you can deny that third from going up but a mistake could cost you the game
I don't really know what build other than 3gate expo to do on maps like Tphoon Peaks. I guess you could do some sort of dt expand or stargate expand, but I don't really see how those are better than 3G expo.
Also, I don't really like relying on a probe scouting an allin on maps like Xel'Naga. If your probe dies to lings you either have to add 2-3 extra cannons blindly or hope to god they aren't roach/ling allinning you. Very messy. That and I just haven't gotten around to working around in single player exactly how i want to FFE on each and every map.
On August 06 2011 03:27 lazydino wrote: Is 3g expo really dead? Seems like people are using voidray expands ALL THE TIME now.
Lol no. I beat Machine on ladder the other day on Shakuras with 3 Gate Expand.
On August 06 2011 03:47 chaopow wrote: I still like to do standard 3g expo.
Just because a build works for you doesn't mean it's an optimal build. You could just be good at PvZ in other areas. If you have a 70% win ratio PvZ using 3 gate expand every game, it could be possible that you'll have a 80% win ratio PvZ if you used another build.
3 gate expand sucks IMO.
EDIT: While 3 gate expand could be considered "safe," it's not economically safe because the zerg can just mass drone on 3 bases. A FFE can be even safer than a 3 gate expand if you just make 8 cannons. But no, no one does that because you fall economically behind. Same reasoning for 3 gate expand.
Yeah though I don't do a 3 Gate Expo to be safe. I'm usually doing it to use my units to force a response from the Z and keep even worker count.
Yeah but most zergs have realized that 8-9 sentries and 2-3 zealot/stalker doesn't really do anything and they don't have to make any units unless they see you commiting to your attack.
I only 3 gate sentry expand when playing lesser opponents or on stupid maps like that new lava one. On shakuras I definitely don't see why you would want to use that oppening.
Korean protosses I've seen that want to pressure the zerg players a little go 3 gate expand but with much less sentries and more zealot/stalker.
On August 06 2011 00:43 nichan wrote: what is the best way to apply pressure to a zerg early game can someone show me video. i try pushing early with a stalker zelot to snipe the queen and it works sometimes is there a better way or standard way to punish them early game?
You can try this as long as he gas was delayed:
I believe I talk about some other means of early game pressure as well.
Does this mean that you can generally use the Zeal/Stalker combo if you open GW on maps that are usually FFE maps? Because generally in my experience they go something like 15 pool 16 hatch(on FFE maps to avoid cannon rush), which would make their speed delayed quite a bit, so you COULD do this push, correct? Or would the gas need to be delayed MORE? Such as a Pool Hatch Hatch build.
EPT
