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On August 05 2011 15:40 Darclite wrote:
When you see a terran 1 basing with double gas, what is the proper response?
It could be a 1/1/1 banshee, 2 port banshee, polt's thor push, marine/tank/banshee/raven, marine/thor/banshee/raven, marine/tank/thor/banshee, marine/tank/thor/raven, maybe a 3/4/5 rax marauder (or something weird and rax heavy, i dont even know, i see weird stuff), a MMM push, etc.
Is it best to throw down a robo? Add gateways? Cancel an expo if it isn't finished yet? Cut probes? If I get a robo do I get immortal first or obs first? Should I ever build a warp prism? Should I get more zealots or stalkers from my gates? Should I throw down a stargate (some claim it's good against banshees/ravens). Should I hide an expo?
This is assuming I can't scout (which you usually can't unless he puts everything at the top of his ramp instead of just a bunker or two; the only ways to scout it are places where you need to invest resources, but you need all you can get against these all ins).
1 gate nexus robo into 4 gate robo mass zealot/sentry/immortal against any form of marine/tank/banshee/raven/thor/hellion/scv. Exception is that against 2 port banshee you need a stargate for phoenix after you scout it with your obs. See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
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On August 05 2011 15:33 Turo wrote:
Ok, so I go 1 gate expand into 3 gates + robo. I suspect banshee play, but my obs sees no expo, a raven, 2 banshees, medium-ish marines and a factory with techlab. I know it's all-in, but until I see him move out I don't know whether thors or tanks.
What do I do?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
robo should be chronoing out immortals against both thors or tanks.
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On August 05 2011 15:43 MuGeN_Eu wrote:
I use to go 1 gate/robo/gate in PvT and have a nice ratio with this at top diamond lvl.
In Pvp yes 4 gate 1 gas is really viable.
2 gate robo PvT is safe but too safe and a bit outdated as a standard. You will be automatically behind against any terran FE build. I'd stick with the many variations of 1 gate or 3 gate expands out there.
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On August 05 2011 15:40 Darclite wrote:
When you see a terran 1 basing with double gas, what is the proper response?
It could be a 1/1/1 banshee, 2 port banshee, polt's thor push, marine/tank/banshee/raven, marine/thor/banshee/raven, marine/tank/thor/banshee, marine/tank/thor/raven, maybe a 3/4/5 rax marauder (or something weird and rax heavy, i dont even know, i see weird stuff), a MMM push, etc.
Is it best to throw down a robo? Add gateways? Cancel an expo if it isn't finished yet? Cut probes? If I get a robo do I get immortal first or obs first? Should I ever build a warp prism? Should I get more zealots or stalkers from my gates? Should I throw down a stargate (some claim it's good against banshees/ravens). Should I hide an expo?
This is assuming I can't scout (which you usually can't unless he puts everything at the top of his ramp instead of just a bunker or two; the only ways to scout it are places where you need to invest resources, but you need all you can get against these all ins).
You need an expansion at your natural, you need to be making the right unit mix and microing better if you can't hold, cancelling your nexus will put him ahead even if he's all-inning you. He can contain you and do anything at that point.
A lot of this has to do when you scout the double gas, of your initial probe scouts a double gas feel free to do a 1 gate expand or a 1 gate robo expand. You want an observer asap to understand what he is building. Generally it will be marines + tanks + banshee, and an added raven wont make too much of a difference.
Now what you want to do is cut probes at 35 or so, your goal is to hold this push, keep your expansion, and after that you'll be in great shape to take the game. If you get your robo early go for very fast collosis. This one base all-in will always have marines and that's why collosis are never a bad idea. You want to ideally have 4 gateways, and focus on a zealot heavy composition with two sentries~. You don't want stalkers, because they are bad against everything, especially when they are at your base and you can't kite. So making 3-4 stalkers is all you need, because it's impossible for them to have 5 banshees, they'll likely have 2-3. And after the engagement occurs warp in a round of stalkers to deal with any left over banshees.
If you have a collosis or two out when they're moving out (you should have any xel naga towers and a probe outside their ramp... Bring your army out and try to force an engagement. Too many players try almost 1a ing right in front of your natural, and therefore their units tend to spread and the marines keep in front. Forcefielding these off and doing some damage will greatly improve your chances of holding the eventual push. Plus it gives you more time for a key unit or upgrade to come out like another collosis. Experiment with range and if the investment is justified, I'd say no, but I know players who prefer spending the 200/200 for it.
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PvZ they rush for 7 seven roaches before warp gate finishes and you only a few force fields. Then I hold them off till warp gate research is finished and you have three gates should I do two stalkers and a sentry every warp in to just keep the roaches out till I get enough stalkers out?
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On August 05 2011 15:39 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 15:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:On August 05 2011 15:30 Peterblue wrote:On August 05 2011 15:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On August 05 2011 15:11 Cubbieblue66 wrote:
Can somebody give me a good build order for a forge fast expand versus Zerg? The one on Liquipedia has been a decent enough starting point for me, but I don't know how to go from there... I tend to favor gateway-heavy armies, maybe mixing in a couple immortals generally. A good build order for it is: 9 pylon 14 forge 15 cannon 17 nexus 18 gateway 18 pylon Switch the order of the cannon and nexus depending what build he goes for, hatch first or 14gas/14pool on a large map allows you to get a nexus first. Now the tricky part is being able to survive the possible roach all-in, baneling bust, or other drop play with investing minimal amounts into your defence, which is very hard to do due to the low possibility of scouting while doing forge fes. But you seem to be mainly asking what to do after you survive. A very good build to go for is a 6-8 gateway push with upgrades, usually 1/1, blink is also an added possibility. An aggressive build is very necessary because going something like fast collosis wont allow you to put any pressure on the zerg and he will easily be able to mass a 70 drone 3 base economy uncontested. Hence why every fast expand involves a fast gateway push or a quick VR to delay the third for as long as possible. It is hard to determine how all-in you should go with the gateway push, but taking your third base while pushing out and sitting on 45 probes is a decent transition. Having good upgrades and a twilight already up leaves a good window to tech up into templar and archons, and the right mix of chargelot, blink stalker, archon, and high templar will do good against any zerg composition. I think it would be better to go 13 forge than 14 forge. You can still chrono beforehand and it doesn't really lose you anything at all. It can help you in case of tight timings. EDIT: And with the quick VR at higher levels you can't normally delay the third, but you WILL be able to force a lot of spores(up to 3 /base) and maybe a few extra queens, which cuts into his drone count pretty well(uses drones to make them and they cost additional money, slowing down his econ). A 13 forge with the right chronoes has an idle nexus for maybe 3 seconds, while it may not seem like much, a 14 forge is able to hold everything that a 13 forge can, anything 10 pool up it can hold, and a 6-7 both struggle with, and will generally outright lose to. 13 forge is possible without an idle nexus if you don't scout before it. But you should always pylon scout in PvZ, so yes 14 forge is better.
Ah, okay THAT's what I was getting confused about. I generally gateway scout, except when FFE, and you can always put GW on 13, so I guess I was just like ignoring the idle time of the Nexus. I'm only Diamond Toss, and I haven't played many games as it, so I am still learning.
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I don't understand how a blink build would counter a Robo build in PvP, especially when the other Protoss gets Colossi on 1 base. How would I win and maybe it's just me, but my base trades attempt never seem to work. 
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If they get colossus on one base they must have really few units...just blink close to the colossus and snipe it. Kepp the number of the colossi low
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How do you deal with Destiny's Ling-Infestor push, and what kind of unit composition should you follow it up with?
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On August 05 2011 17:02 Animostas wrote:
How do you deal with Destiny's Ling-Infestor push, and what kind of unit composition should you follow it up with?
In my opinion, the by far best unit vs ling/infestor is the archon, preferrably with attack-upgrades. Later on, once they reach a critical mass (I'd say about 5), their insane damage vs bio will literally splish-splash all lings before they can even do some damage.
If you have a good number of zealots/archons, then you can use blink stalkers effectively, even though he has ling/infestor. If the zerg doesn't switch it up considerably, you can go for an archon/stalker/templar composition. Similar to the immortal/stalker/templar, just switch the immortal for the archon since you are dealing with mass-lings instead of mass-roach.
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In PvP, how do I deal with the chargelot/archon unit combination?
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On August 05 2011 17:38 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, how do I deal with the chargelot/archon unit combination?
In case it's late-mid game you should either have cchargelot/archon yourself or the deathball. If you have the deathball you need to micro your collossi very well and try to engage at small areas and not in some place where his composition can sourround you, but imo chargelot/archon > colossi (if similliar resources spent ofc).
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On August 05 2011 16:51 UmbeXCII wrote:
If they get colossus on one base they must have really few units...just blink close to the colossus and snipe it. Kepp the number of the colossi low
It isn't that easy actually. If he has somewhat coloss micro you'll have a really hard time doing this only. In fact, you're suppossed to try to do some dmg before hand, harassing with the blink stalker. If you did little to no damage its pretty impossible to beat this composition in a straight up battle (consider his push should come before your expo really kicked in, a little eco advantage is OK for him as he has tech advantage), so in that case you should probaly try to base trade, in which you have 2 advantages: 1st you army is more mobile than his, 2nd you already know its going to be base trade before he does, so you can prepare yourself.
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On August 05 2011 17:02 Animostas wrote:
How do you deal with Destiny's Ling-Infestor push, and what kind of unit composition should you follow it up with?
Personally I like blinkstalker/chargelot/collosus with an observer forward of my army - when I see the infestors getting close, I blink on them so they can't neural parasite my collosi then they tend to clean everything up.
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On August 05 2011 17:14 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:02 Animostas wrote:
How do you deal with Destiny's Ling-Infestor push, and what kind of unit composition should you follow it up with? In my opinion, the by far best unit vs ling/infestor is the archon, preferrably with attack-upgrades. Later on, once they reach a critical mass (I'd say about 5), their insane damage vs bio will literally splish-splash all lings before they can even do some damage. If you have a good number of zealots/archons, then you can use blink stalkers effectively, even though he has ling/infestor. If the zerg doesn't switch it up considerably, you can go for an archon/stalker/templar composition. Similar to the immortal/stalker/templar, just switch the immortal for the archon since you are dealing with mass-lings instead of mass-roach.
On August 05 2011 17:54 mcclurg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:02 Animostas wrote:
How do you deal with Destiny's Ling-Infestor push, and what kind of unit composition should you follow it up with? Personally I like blinkstalker/chargelot/collosus with an observer forward of my army - when I see the infestors getting close, I blink on them so they can't neural parasite my collosi then they tend to clean everything up.
Yea both those answers work, zeal/archon or fast 2 base colossus (with mostly zeals since you're using gas to rush colossus) will have a pretty good advantage over infestor/ling.
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On August 05 2011 17:41 Tigi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:38 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, how do I deal with the chargelot/archon unit combination? In case it's late-mid game you should either have cchargelot/archon yourself or the deathball. If you have the deathball you need to micro your collossi very well and try to engage at small areas and not in some place where his composition can sourround you, but imo chargelot/archon > colossi (if similliar resources spent ofc).
In mid-late game I far prefer having colossus over more chargelot/archon against chargelot/archon. Chargelot/archon is a great early-mid game composition but against a lot of colossus it will fail.
If you're going robo and you're facing chargelot/archon, play defensively and use lots of buildings to wall off parts of your main, natural, etc. Just turtle until you can get a good number of colossus 3-4+ before pushing out. Then try not to get surrounded in the open.
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On August 05 2011 15:41 AustinCM wrote:
what is the standard PvT opener? and is 4 gate still a viable strat in pvp? as in to make your standard?
Yeah 4 gate is still viable, easy to pull off, and if the other person fucks up his defensive build you will win. Make sure you are building 2 pylons by his ramp at around 5 minutes, and attacking with your initial stalker zealot.
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On August 05 2011 17:38 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, how do I deal with the chargelot/archon unit combination?
You can fight that combination if you have a simcity of buildings. Like if you are on one base, wall your shit off like you would against a zerg. He will never be able to bust you. Him containing you not withstanding, just reduce surface area of your fights.
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Is the adelscott 2 gate pvp fe viable now?
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On August 06 2011 00:25 mewo wrote:
Is the adelscott 2 gate pvp fe viable now?
No.
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EPT
