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On August 06 2011 01:17 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 01:16 Squigly wrote:On August 06 2011 01:07 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 06 2011 01:05 Squigly wrote:
What issues have people run into when 3 gate proxy SG all inning? Mass base trade? Dunno what you mean.. Usually people just die to it. Ha true. There must be a weakness but i cant find it 1 Rax FE should beat it pretty convincingly. Lots of marines, and some Missile Turrets for icing on the cake 
Wait what? surely 1 rax FE gets utterly destroyed. The non void part of this can push the front by themselves. If turrets at the front voids in the back.
Worst case its one epic contain while P expos as you can get sentries and perma FF the ramp. Obv youd need to cut voids for sentries.
If im wrong and anyone has a vid, my bad XD
Also, i was more looking for a non-blind counter
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This thread is amazing, glad to see such great Protoss advice here. Thanks to all the contributors.
I have a questions, what is the proper response to a 6 pool as Toss? I scout at nine, but even when I see it coming I often have problems knowing the proper way to act. Usualy I am going for a 13 gate when I see it. Should I drop a second gate, and pump zealots, try to get cannons or maybe something else?
Usually I am working on a wall off and if it is near the edge it can be hard to save the pylon before the first zealot comes out.
Thanks,
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Do I upgrade attack or armor first, for the standard gateway mix? Does it change by match-up?
+ Show Spoiler +I used to upgrade to 2 atk, and then get 2 def, but I heard Day[9] say at MLG that getting 2 armor is really useful against Terran, because marines will deal so little damage?
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having issues with the 1 gate fe vs T, losing to bio pushes with 2 marauder and 6-8 marines. Which units should I warp in on the 1st round of warps from my 3 gates? I been told getting sentries out too soon will a quick way to die?
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On August 06 2011 01:41 Karliath wrote:Do I upgrade attack or armor first, for the standard gateway mix? Does it change by match-up? + Show Spoiler +I used to upgrade to 2 atk, and then get 2 def, but I heard Day[9] say at MLG that getting 2 armor is really useful against Terran, because marines will deal so little damage?
You want attack upgrades against zerg because zealots will 2 shot zerglings instead of 3 if they have a 1 upgrade advantage over their carapace.
Armor is good for terran
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Okay, so, I've been trying my hardest to enact a forge fe style, attempting to do a 5-6 gate stalker blink push with a templar follow up. The push being a way to expand... the problem is when I end up falling behind because the zerg sees the FFE and just double expands and masses up roaches and infestors...
I know I'm a crappy Diamond toss... but I can never seem to kill Zerg compositions of Roach infestor... Ling infestor I can manage with storms and colossi positioning... but roach infestor just steam rolls everything I have... I can never manage to get up enough immortals to fight off the roaches, and if even a few lings get pushed into the comp stalkers with their ungodly overkill just seem to get smushed...
HELP ME >,<
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On August 06 2011 01:44 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 01:41 Karliath wrote:Do I upgrade attack or armor first, for the standard gateway mix? Does it change by match-up? + Show Spoiler +I used to upgrade to 2 atk, and then get 2 def, but I heard Day[9] say at MLG that getting 2 armor is really useful against Terran, because marines will deal so little damage? You want attack upgrades against zerg because zealots will 2 shot zerglings instead of 3 if they have a 1 upgrade advantage over their carapace. Armor is good for terran
This depends entirely on your composition and your opponent's. If you're going a blink build against zerg and he is heavy lings while getting infestors or mutas, armor is going to be better than attack when it comes to upgrades. If he's roach-heavy and you went blink, +attack is going to be the standard.
In general, +armor gets more useful as the opponent's Rate of Fire increases. +attack gets better as your attacks' RoF increases. There are certain +attack and +armor "breakpoints" that swing in favor of an upgrade in a matchup/composition by lowering the number of attacks to kill an enemy unit or increasing the number of attacks required to kill one of your units. For instance, if +armor increases the number of immortal shots required to kill a stalker (I know 3 immortals kills a stalker in 1shot, but I'm not sure if +armor changes that), upgrading +armor in a blink build versus a robo build might make your aggression much stronger as a group of 3 immortals would use 2 volleys to kill each stalker (wasting a ton of overkill damage). The +1 attack letting zealots 2shot zerglings example is one that I know is true, sorry if the +armor stalker vs immortal one isn't!
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On August 06 2011 01:51 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Okay, so, I've been trying my hardest to enact a forge fe style, attempting to do a 5-6 gate stalker blink push with a templar follow up. The push being a way to expand... the problem is when I end up falling behind because the zerg sees the FFE and just double expands and masses up roaches and infestors...
I know I'm a crappy Diamond toss... but I can never seem to kill Zerg compositions of Roach infestor... Ling infestor I can manage with storms and colossi positioning... but roach infestor just steam rolls everything I have... I can never manage to get up enough immortals to fight off the roaches, and if even a few lings get pushed into the comp stalkers with their ungodly overkill just seem to get smushed...
HELP ME >,<
Are you pushing with blink stalkers by 9 or 10 minutes atleast?
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On August 06 2011 01:41 Karliath wrote:Do I upgrade attack or armor first, for the standard gateway mix? Does it change by match-up? + Show Spoiler +I used to upgrade to 2 atk, and then get 2 def, but I heard Day[9] say at MLG that getting 2 armor is really useful against Terran, because marines will deal so little damage?
Attack against units with a lot of HP that fire slowly. Armor against units with less HP that fire rapidly. Mutas are somewhere in the middle of those two.
On August 06 2011 01:41 SaVaGe 956 wrote:
having issues with the 1 gate fe vs T, losing to bio pushes with 2 marauder and 6-8 marines. Which units should I warp in on the 1st round of warps from my 3 gates? I been told getting sentries out too soon will a quick way to die?
If you get early Sentries stay up your ramp. Also 1 Gate FE is a pretty rigid opening. Try the 20 Food HuK Expand, as it's a lot more versatile. Once you have a warpin or two of units from the Gateways (which should be mostly Zealots with some Stalkers), you can waltz down your ramp and own the Terran with FF/Guardian Shield.
On August 06 2011 01:51 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Okay, so, I've been trying my hardest to enact a forge fe style, attempting to do a 5-6 gate stalker blink push with a templar follow up. The push being a way to expand... the problem is when I end up falling behind because the zerg sees the FFE and just double expands and masses up roaches and infestors...
I know I'm a crappy Diamond toss... but I can never seem to kill Zerg compositions of Roach infestor... Ling infestor I can manage with storms and colossi positioning... but roach infestor just steam rolls everything I have... I can never manage to get up enough immortals to fight off the roaches, and if even a few lings get pushed into the comp stalkers with their ungodly overkill just seem to get smushed...
HELP ME >,<
Sounds like you FFE and then that's it. If you have proper build execution you'll probably have all your gates + blink faster. It also sounds like you did a FFE and then nothing else. You can still move around the map with a Zealot early game, and throw a couple units around after that. You can also be very active with your units outside your natural expansion, and just act as scary with them as you can. If you see a really early third, do something. Often times I'll use some clever Zealot attacks to get them into the mineral lines of the Zerg while clearing the Xel'Naga caverns. You're just not giving the Zerg any reason to make anything but Drones off 3 base, which allows them to get whatever they want by the time you have your attack ready.
On August 06 2011 01:37 rastaban wrote:
This thread is amazing, glad to see such great Protoss advice here. Thanks to all the contributors.
I have a questions, what is the proper response to a 6 pool as Toss? I scout at nine, but even when I see it coming I often have problems knowing the proper way to act. Usualy I am going for a 13 gate when I see it. Should I drop a second gate, and pump zealots, try to get cannons or maybe something else?
Usually I am working on a wall off and if it is near the edge it can be hard to save the pylon before the first zealot comes out.
Thanks,
Forge + Cannon walloff, or 2 Gate Zealot. I usually go for 2 Gate Zealot, and you'll need to pull probes for this as well. Try to find some professional replays of this if you can, as that's how I figured it out best.
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What openings and midgame strategies set protoss up to play at a disadvantage against the popular speedling + mass infestor zerg midgame?
By "strategy" I mean things like 6 gate push, FFE into stargate harass, one-base blink, DT expand, etc... I'm trying to figure out what builds I should avoid doing on the ladder while this build is popular. I'm getting matched against opponents who are roughly at my skill level, so if I choose a strategy that requires me to out-macro and/or out-micro my opponent to win then chances are that I'm going to have a losing record over all.
For example, I've tried doing a FFE into 6 gate push against ling/infestor. I start moving across the map at around 9:30 with lots of stalkers and sentries. He meets me halfway with his lings and infestors and chain fungals my army to death. So that strategy might just be a dead-end versus ling infestor and maybe I shouldn't beat my head against a wall trying to make it work.
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Kill the gas steal! For 3 Stalkers, get a Zealot while your Core is constructing, and an early Pylon. This will delay your last Stalker, but oh well he's delayed by 75 Minerals. Also, it's good to just prevent the gas steal in PvP.
For PvZ, depending on how much I want that second gas, I'll either build 2 Zealots and attack the Extractor with one. Or I'll attack it with 2 probes once it finishes, or I'll kill it later with a Stalker/Zealot. The subtle differences in how I play depend on what my opponent is doing really, but the idea is to just kill it without letting lings in your base.
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On August 06 2011 02:36 galivet wrote:
What openings and midgame strategies set protoss up to play at a disadvantage against the popular speedling + mass infestor zerg midgame?
By "strategy" I mean things like 6 gate push, FFE into stargate harass, one-base blink, DT expand, etc... I'm trying to figure out what builds I should avoid doing on the ladder while this build is popular. I'm getting matched against opponents who are roughly at my skill level, so if I choose a strategy that requires me to out-macro and/or out-micro my opponent to win then chances are that I'm going to have a losing record over all.
For example, I've tried doing a FFE into 6 gate push against ling/infestor. I start moving across the map at around 9:30 with lots of stalkers and sentries. He meets me halfway with his lings and infestors and chain fungals my army to death. So that strategy might just be a dead-end versus ling infestor and maybe I shouldn't beat my head against a wall trying to make it work.
Master toss here.
If you know you are going against a ling/infestor style, my personal response would be to get collosus and secure a 3rd. Watch out for bling drops, make a couple of canons of defense at your 3rd and atleast 1 at your natural, and try to get a critical amount of collosus out. If you see with your obs he is massing up infestors the best response is collosus. If hes teching to quick broodlords and infestors to stay alive, get some voidrays out, or attack before he can get brood lord infestor combo.
I still do a lot of 3gate expo into 6gate blink, or forge FE into 6gate attacks, and they work very well against both roach and ling infestor styles, as usually I am able to hit before enough infestors can get out. Use your forcefields quickly but wisely against the lings. Your forcefield placement makes or breaks this type of attack. Spread your units into a concave if possible going against infestors.
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On August 06 2011 01:51 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Okay, so, I've been trying my hardest to enact a forge fe style, attempting to do a 5-6 gate stalker blink push with a templar follow up. The push being a way to expand... the problem is when I end up falling behind because the zerg sees the FFE and just double expands and masses up roaches and infestors...
I know I'm a crappy Diamond toss... but I can never seem to kill Zerg compositions of Roach infestor... Ling infestor I can manage with storms and colossi positioning... but roach infestor just steam rolls everything I have... I can never manage to get up enough immortals to fight off the roaches, and if even a few lings get pushed into the comp stalkers with their ungodly overkill just seem to get smushed...
HELP ME >,<
scout more and exploit timing windows.
1. hide a probe and scout. scouting keeps them from being greedy. remember you've only invested an extra 400 minerals into an expansion (700 once you add forge/cannon). that's only 4(7) fewer zealots, should you decide to attack before your base is fully operational. get a feel for when he should take his third and if he takes a greedy third, make units and push out so he has to stop droning. Effectively, he'll be building a macro hatch until he goes back to making drones. even if you just show up, see eggs hatching, and have to leave, you set him back a long way by him making units instead of droning at that point in the game. If you don't do this and he makes a wave of like 14 drones from his 2 bases unpunished, you're way behind.
if you FFE and he doesn't get any units or gas until he takes a 3rd and then techs to infestors before you attack, you should lose because he scouted better and that build is greedier than a FFE.
2. roach/infestor is an expensive composition. how you respond depends on the game state. if he's on 2 bases, you should kill him before his tech finishes. if he's on 3 bases you should have a 3rd as well and afford immortals and HT. feedback + good obs coverage should remove the infestors from the equation and then his composition is mass roach with fewer roaches. again, scouting is the key.
Against zerg you have to make sure you engage in good locations so that FF can be used properly. Engagement location and forcefield placement are 2 of the biggest factors in winning or losing PvZ with your chosen strategy.
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On August 06 2011 02:36 galivet wrote:
What openings and midgame strategies set protoss up to play at a disadvantage against the popular speedling + mass infestor zerg midgame?
By "strategy" I mean things like 6 gate push, FFE into stargate harass, one-base blink, DT expand, etc... I'm trying to figure out what builds I should avoid doing on the ladder while this build is popular. I'm getting matched against opponents who are roughly at my skill level, so if I choose a strategy that requires me to out-macro and/or out-micro my opponent to win then chances are that I'm going to have a losing record over all.
For example, I've tried doing a FFE into 6 gate push against ling/infestor. I start moving across the map at around 9:30 with lots of stalkers and sentries. He meets me halfway with his lings and infestors and chain fungals my army to death. So that strategy might just be a dead-end versus ling infestor and maybe I shouldn't beat my head against a wall trying to make it work.
I feel you need to tech higher against Ling/Infestor that early. Archons will own it if you get like 6 of them, and just a couple Archons will own them along with FF usage defensively. If you go for DT tech you can also get a lot of control over the game to take an earlier third.
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On August 06 2011 02:43 chaopow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 02:36 galivet wrote:
What openings and midgame strategies set protoss up to play at a disadvantage against the popular speedling + mass infestor zerg midgame?
By "strategy" I mean things like 6 gate push, FFE into stargate harass, one-base blink, DT expand, etc... I'm trying to figure out what builds I should avoid doing on the ladder while this build is popular. I'm getting matched against opponents who are roughly at my skill level, so if I choose a strategy that requires me to out-macro and/or out-micro my opponent to win then chances are that I'm going to have a losing record over all.
For example, I've tried doing a FFE into 6 gate push against ling/infestor. I start moving across the map at around 9:30 with lots of stalkers and sentries. He meets me halfway with his lings and infestors and chain fungals my army to death. So that strategy might just be a dead-end versus ling infestor and maybe I shouldn't beat my head against a wall trying to make it work. Master toss here. If you know you are going against a ling/infestor style, my personal response would be to get collosus and secure a 3rd. Watch out for bling drops, make a couple of canons of defense at your 3rd and atleast 1 at your natural, and try to get a critical amount of collosus out. If you see with your obs he is massing up infestors the best response is collosus. If hes teching to quick broodlords and infestors to stay alive, get some voidrays out, or attack before he can get brood lord infestor combo. I still do a lot of 3gate expo into 6gate blink, or forge FE into 6gate attacks, and they work very well against both roach and ling infestor styles, as usually I am able to hit before enough infestors can get out. Use your forcefields quickly but wisely against the lings. Your forcefield placement makes or breaks this type of attack. Spread your units into a concave if possible going against infestors.
Thanks! Since you say you're able to hit before the infestors are out it must be an execution error on my part. I'll keep working on it (or alternatively try to play more defensively as you describe).
Also, thanks Cecil.
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On August 06 2011 01:41 Karliath wrote:Do I upgrade attack or armor first, for the standard gateway mix? Does it change by match-up? + Show Spoiler +I used to upgrade to 2 atk, and then get 2 def, but I heard Day[9] say at MLG that getting 2 armor is really useful against Terran, because marines will deal so little damage?
vs Terran in a gateway-esque defensive position, I will take armor over attack any day. Otherwise for timing pushes I go for attack (could be wrong here though, my preference. colo timing attacks for me at least, marines shouldnt be a problem)
uh.. in pvp or pvz?
pvp you can usually just steal their gas. there is no concrete thing to do though, gas steals can be such mind games in pvp.. I do it all the time. steal his gas, take my gas, make him feel like 4gating and win from a defensive 4gate.
pvz however, it's a bit tougher. you can try to get rid of it as fast as possible, expand faster (more minerals because 3 probes wont be mining gas), or just 4gate. I honestly just 4gate, but idk how effective it would be if Z players start to do it to bait a 4gate.
On August 06 2011 01:51 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Okay, so, I've been trying my hardest to enact a forge fe style, attempting to do a 5-6 gate stalker blink push with a templar follow up. The push being a way to expand... the problem is when I end up falling behind because the zerg sees the FFE and just double expands and masses up roaches and infestors...
I know I'm a crappy Diamond toss... but I can never seem to kill Zerg compositions of Roach infestor... Ling infestor I can manage with storms and colossi positioning... but roach infestor just steam rolls everything I have... I can never manage to get up enough immortals to fight off the roaches, and if even a few lings get pushed into the comp stalkers with their ungodly overkill just seem to get smushed...
HELP ME >,<
i've tried experiemnting with this style. you want to stash a scouting probe, be sneaky with it, hide pylons, look for his 3rd etc. with the 5-6 gate blink timing (I went +2 attack as well, could hit by like 10~) you want to try and get his third or at least force a lot of units. I don't suggest just immediately going into templar though.. your tech of choice should be a reaction to what he is getting. I still prefer standard play over the timing attacks, as it doesn't hinge on the Zerg being prepared or not.
This thread would be funner if Cecil wasn't such a hog ^^;
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If any relatively high Masters Protoss players could PM me some replays of them versing infestor/ling or even a large replay pack of it I'd be very grateful!
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On August 06 2011 02:46 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 02:36 galivet wrote:
What openings and midgame strategies set protoss up to play at a disadvantage against the popular speedling + mass infestor zerg midgame?
By "strategy" I mean things like 6 gate push, FFE into stargate harass, one-base blink, DT expand, etc... I'm trying to figure out what builds I should avoid doing on the ladder while this build is popular. I'm getting matched against opponents who are roughly at my skill level, so if I choose a strategy that requires me to out-macro and/or out-micro my opponent to win then chances are that I'm going to have a losing record over all.
For example, I've tried doing a FFE into 6 gate push against ling/infestor. I start moving across the map at around 9:30 with lots of stalkers and sentries. He meets me halfway with his lings and infestors and chain fungals my army to death. So that strategy might just be a dead-end versus ling infestor and maybe I shouldn't beat my head against a wall trying to make it work. I feel you need to tech higher against Ling/Infestor that early. Archons will own it if you get like 6 of them, and just a couple Archons will own them along with FF usage defensively. If you go for DT tech you can also get a lot of control over the game to take an earlier third.
Great:
6 gate +1 zeal while teching to archons
fast 2 base colossus
Depends on micro or luck/timing:
DT expand
FFE > stargate
blink builds
Fail:
Any sentry heavy build
standard gateway+robo
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How fast of a robo are we talking for 'fast 2 base colossus'?
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EPT
