On March 11 2013 17:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: Is there a guide/build for DT openings vs Terran? More specifically some kind of 1 gate expand with quick double gas and fast twilight council + warp prism and Dark Shrine, I think I saw HerO open that way a few times but never found replays. The other one I was interested in is a 1 base DT expand with hallucination to warp in the main but with high ground warpin gone in HotS it's probably useless to ask for that now. I've just recently started executing builds and not thinking through everything on the fly. So I've just been randomly opening DT sometimes with decent success, but no real high level games. Mostly I just insta win because people are bad in diamond or I get countered because I didn't do a proper build.
Oh and the most standard of all, single forge Colossus? I tried googling it and looked around but didn't really find anything.
There aren't. Your best bet is to study Gomtv vods.
If you have the patience, i suppose you could look at the TSL4 qualifiers and sort through 150ish replays of korean pvt. I've done that for the PvZ guide and believe me, it's not fun.
On March 11 2013 17:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: Is there a guide/build for DT openings vs Terran? More specifically some kind of 1 gate expand with quick double gas and fast twilight council + warp prism and Dark Shrine, I think I saw HerO open that way a few times but never found replays. The other one I was interested in is a 1 base DT expand with hallucination to warp in the main but with high ground warpin gone in HotS it's probably useless to ask for that now. I've just recently started executing builds and not thinking through everything on the fly. So I've just been randomly opening DT sometimes with decent success, but no real high level games. Mostly I just insta win because people are bad in diamond or I get countered because I didn't do a proper build.
Oh and the most standard of all, single forge Colossus? I tried googling it and looked around but didn't really find anything.
There aren't. Your best bet is to study Gomtv vods.
If you have the patience, i suppose you could look at the TSL4 qualifiers and sort through 150ish replays of korean pvt. I've done that for the PvZ guide and believe me, it's not fun.
Might do that if I have time on the weekend. Might also write a short writeup of both the DT and single forge colossus build if I find something + post it here. Thanks for the work btw, didn't know there was this much going into it :O
On March 07 2013 20:15 Kinon wrote: I started rebinding my hotkeys, and at the moment I don't know what would make a good key for Warpgate (W only shows the active warpgates, seeing the inactive/under construction gates would be great). Any suggestions?
I've always had my Nexuses on 4, my Gateways on 5 and my Robotics Facility on 6. By doing this, I can quickly tap 4 to check Probes are being built, tap 5 to check Warpgates aren't off cooldown/Gateways don't need transforming, tap 6 to check the Robotics Facility is building, etc. Doing it this way has always seemed natural to me; I've never used the Warpgate hotkey.
EDIT:
Maybe it is because I played Zerg originally? I don't even think I knew about the Warpgate hotkey until I was already set in my ways =P
what do you set stargate to?
7. The only exception is if I go Stargate before Robo; in that case the Stargate will go on 6 until I build a Robo, and then the Stargate will be moved to 7.
How do manage to hit 6/7 comfortably? I have problems with that.
As a side note, are Filtersc's vids good for protoss too? I know he plays terran, but the mechanics are about the same. I got stuck in platinum for thepast 4 months, so I decided to check out some mechanics videos to improve my game.
I have relatively long fingers. There is no real trick to finding a certain hotkey set-up comfortable; it's all about how good a typist you are and how long your fingers are.
my hands are baby sized. So i just rebinded the hotkeys from 9 and 0 to Q and W. I'm pretty good at typing so the only awkward part is using ctr+6/7 and after that my hand can just jump to 6 and 7 and leave the keyboard without messing up.
I never use hotkeys 6/7, I find them pretty far away and you missclick so often if you try to hit them. I'm using 1-5 on the keyboard, 2 extra mouse buttons and a real tip is rebinding the space bar as a control group. You always have your thumb close to the spacebar so it's quite easy to access. Using it for my general casters in all races.
Something I started doing is put my forge(s) at 7. You don't need them to produce units or to control anything but you wouldn't wanna do that with hotkeys 6-7 anyway unless your hands are abnormally huge. But having the forges on a hotkey, especially when doing an upgrade based strategy, will absolutely not hurt you.
On March 11 2013 17:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: Is there a guide/build for DT openings vs Terran? More specifically some kind of 1 gate expand with quick double gas and fast twilight council + warp prism and Dark Shrine, I think I saw HerO open that way a few times but never found replays. The other one I was interested in is a 1 base DT expand with hallucination to warp in the main but with high ground warpin gone in HotS it's probably useless to ask for that now. I've just recently started executing builds and not thinking through everything on the fly. So I've just been randomly opening DT sometimes with decent success, but no real high level games. Mostly I just insta win because people are bad in diamond or I get countered because I didn't do a proper build.
Oh and the most standard of all, single forge Colossus? I tried googling it and looked around but didn't really find anything.
On March 11 2013 17:59 DarkLordOlli wrote: Is there a guide/build for DT openings vs Terran? More specifically some kind of 1 gate expand with quick double gas and fast twilight council + warp prism and Dark Shrine, I think I saw HerO open that way a few times but never found replays. The other one I was interested in is a 1 base DT expand with hallucination to warp in the main but with high ground warpin gone in HotS it's probably useless to ask for that now. I've just recently started executing builds and not thinking through everything on the fly. So I've just been randomly opening DT sometimes with decent success, but no real high level games. Mostly I just insta win because people are bad in diamond or I get countered because I didn't do a proper build.
Oh and the most standard of all, single forge Colossus? I tried googling it and looked around but didn't really find anything.
Not exactly what you're looking for, but here are the two DT expands I use fairly frequently. The first, Rain's 1 gate DT expand is my personal favorite DT opener. The second build, from this game is more of a 1 gate expand into DT follow up if I remember things correctly. I have it written out, but I'm on break from school right now so I don't have the orders with me.
I've kinda fallen in love with DT openers versus Terran. The first opener looks identical to a blink/obs opening up until you would put down the robo/put down the nexus/shrine. And by then, you shouldn't be allowing anything but scans to see what you're doing. So you sometimes can get games where you just win outright because they read your order wrong and set up a bunch of bunkers in their main waiting for your blink stalker attack to come, meanwhile your 1 or 2 dts get game-ending damage done to his mineral lines. Or if you meet someone twice in a row on ladder you can show the same order and then switch to a different build after you chase his scout away. During the midgame, DTs give you total map control, forcing him to either bank scans or make a raven if he wants to cross the map, both of which delay or weaken his initial medivac push considerably. I've sometimes played games where at home all I have is a few sentries and zealots but he's too afraid to move out because I could just send DT after DT at his army as he crosses the map. I probably play it more gimmicky and greedy than I should, but in most games, it works wonders.
All that being said, I'm not sure how these builds work in HotS, so this might be a wasted endeavor.
Thanks guys! I think the build should do decently well in HotS. Should even be way better now with cheaper DTs. The key will still be denying terran from scouting your 2nd gas but it should be easier now since you can put it down later and still have enough gas for a shrine. Though not sure about new ebay timings to defend oracles/DTs.
On March 13 2013 02:59 Teoita wrote: Imo if you want to do tech stuff just go double 16 gas. It makes you so much harder to read from the terran perspective.
I agree. Actually, IMO, standard 2 min gas (with an intention to go 2 gas play) is just plain bad. I would always delay my gas and get 2 gases at an earlier time (compared to my second gas's timing) and mine 2 in each (better efficiency). Then rally in more probes when my mineral line is saturated at 16 workers.
I have a quick question for Protoss users who know a bit about the history of PvZ throughout WOL and how it evolved. At one point, two base all-ins were very common and the most commonly used strategy, but at some point that changed into a fast third base being the most common. My question is, why (in WOL) did PvZ change from 2 base all-ins / 2 base pressure into a third, change into a fast third base? In PvT you don't need to take a fast third, you can afford to make some units and tech and then take a third, so why is this different in PvZ?
On March 13 2013 23:04 Salv wrote: I have a quick question for Protoss users who know a bit about the history of PvZ throughout WOL and how it evolved. At one point, two base all-ins were very common and the most commonly used strategy, but at some point that changed into a fast third base being the most common. My question is, why (in WOL) did PvZ change from 2 base all-ins / 2 base pressure into a third, change into a fast third base? In PvT you don't need to take a fast third, you can afford to make some units and tech and then take a third, so why is this different in PvZ?
On March 13 2013 23:04 Salv wrote: I have a quick question for Protoss users who know a bit about the history of PvZ throughout WOL and how it evolved. At one point, two base all-ins were very common and the most commonly used strategy, but at some point that changed into a fast third base being the most common. My question is, why (in WOL) did PvZ change from 2 base all-ins / 2 base pressure into a third, change into a fast third base? In PvT you don't need to take a fast third, you can afford to make some units and tech and then take a third, so why is this different in PvZ?
Zergs figuring out how to deal with each Protoss pressure all-in via scouting and an efficient catch-all build.
The Stephano style of roach max was an automatic win against failed pressure or a late, inefficient expand.
Thanks Monk, I read the history from that guide, but I couldn't find where it explicitly stated why a quick third base became preferable.
Why was the Stephano style roach max an automatic win against failed pressure, or more importantly, later expands? I ask because for HOTS, with so many different openings that people are doing (hydralisk/roach, roach, hydralisk/swarm host, swarm host, mutalisk, infestor/ling) it seems very difficult to have a build that can combat all of these effectively when trying to take a third. My limited understanding was that a later expansion was bad for the Protoss because at this point you would be at Zerg late game, which would crush any 2 base compositions you could realistically make and you wouldn't have much time to take advantage of your three base economy. With infestors being a lot less scary in HOTS, I thought maybe a 2 base pressure -> expand style might be viable.
On March 13 2013 23:04 Salv wrote: I have a quick question for Protoss users who know a bit about the history of PvZ throughout WOL and how it evolved. At one point, two base all-ins were very common and the most commonly used strategy, but at some point that changed into a fast third base being the most common. My question is, why (in WOL) did PvZ change from 2 base all-ins / 2 base pressure into a third, change into a fast third base? In PvT you don't need to take a fast third, you can afford to make some units and tech and then take a third, so why is this different in PvZ?
I'm bored at work with nothing to do atm so here goes. PvZ used to be 1base gateway expands, like a 3gate sentry expand for example. It took time and a very defensive setup for protoss to take a natural expansion against the then standard 2 base opening with relatively fast ling speed from zerg. People then discovered the Forge Fast Expand that allowed them to take a natural off absolutely no units at all. Which means their 2base economy kicked in insanely fast while zerg had a really hard time doing anything about it. What happened then is something protoss has always done in SC2. Have a good, solid economy and a timing? Go kill them right now or at least cripple them. So protoss started using that economy to turn it into attacking units while zerg was still struggling with holding these timings. Protoss units are stronger per unit than zerg units are. So with equal economy and production, protoss almost always wins a battle. So the goal with 2 base pressure/all ins was to catch zerg at that awkward timing when they have to either expand to keep up with the protoss economy or tech to punish the protoss.
However, at some point zergs realized they could go 3 hatch without gas against FFE because there's no units by protoss to be afraid of. That way zerg keeps the economic advantage over an FFE protoss and it kicks in fast enough for them to get the defense up they need against any form of 2 base all in protoss can throw at them - except possibly immortal/sentry. Though even that has been held by zergs. So at a certain point zergs were just so solid vs 2 base attacks that they'd shut it down easily and then deny your third forever or win in the lategame with the advantage they gained. That's why protoss often prefer to take a quick 3rd nowadays because a 3 base protoss is a happy protoss. AND there's, again, that awkward timing when zerg wants to take their own 4th to keep up with the protoss' eco. The key to it is that you want to be equal to the zerg in economy, tech and production. That's enough for you to win almost every game. In PvT that's not so much that case. Terran MMM is actually very capable of keeping up with the strength of your midgame army + has a mobility advantage over you. That's why protoss usually plays a little more conservatively in PvT before taking a third.
So TL;DR: Zergs figured out how to hold 2base pressure and be very ahead afterwards.
On March 13 2013 23:04 Salv wrote: I have a quick question for Protoss users who know a bit about the history of PvZ throughout WOL and how it evolved. At one point, two base all-ins were very common and the most commonly used strategy, but at some point that changed into a fast third base being the most common. My question is, why (in WOL) did PvZ change from 2 base all-ins / 2 base pressure into a third, change into a fast third base? In PvT you don't need to take a fast third, you can afford to make some units and tech and then take a third, so why is this different in PvZ?
Zergs figuring out how to deal with each Protoss pressure all-in via scouting and an efficient catch-all build.
The Stephano style of roach max was an automatic win against failed pressure or a late, inefficient expand.
Thanks Monk, I read the history from that guide, but I couldn't find where it explicitly stated why a quick third base became preferable.
Why was the Stephano style roach max an automatic win against failed pressure, or more importantly, later expands? I ask because for HOTS, with so many different openings that people are doing (hydralisk/roach, roach, hydralisk/swarm host, swarm host, mutalisk, infestor/ling) it seems very difficult to have a build that can combat all of these effectively when trying to take a third. My limited understanding was that a later expansion was bad for the Protoss because at this point you would be at Zerg late game, which would crush any 2 base compositions you could realistically make and you wouldn't have much time to take advantage of your three base economy. With infestors being a lot less scary in HOTS, I thought maybe a 2 base pressure -> expand style might be viable.
To hold the Stephano roach max even with an optimized build (say, 9 minute immortal expand) Protoss still needs very crisp execution and a good simcity, good forcefields, and some help from the map (whcih is what caused modern maps with super easy thirds like Entombed and Ohana). If your build is "flawed" in some way, a roach max will just run you over most of the time. On some maps, you can't take a third no matter your build vs 3base roach (abyssal city for example) because there are too many points to defend. If you take a later third you don't have the econ/production/simcity to hold off the zerg's timing once it hits (which is why, say, 2base colossus is bad vs roach max).
This is also why pressure into third doesn't work as well: if you don't do damage you have a later third and delayed tech (especially a lower immortal count), which makes holding the push even harder.
Additionally, older 2base allins like stargate 7gate and blink +2 generally hit slightly later and/or less strongly so than an Immortal all-in so they aren't really worth doing. Immortal allin on the other hand is still very common.
As far as Hots goes, i think stargate/4gate/robo can account for every Zerg build, and it's possible to immortal allin off of it, so think it's looking like the best PvZ midgame build for now. I don't think there have been any other builds capable of doing that yet.
2base pressure is viable thanks to recall, if less common than a more passive build, not because of infestor nerfs or anything like that.
Guys, how do you handle the new maps with impossible thirds to take versus Zerg (Star station, Neo Planet S, Bel'shir vestige)? Mass cannons? I veto at least two of them, but it is not a solution...
I also try two base pressure with third taking in the middle of it, but this only works because zergs are busy playing with their new toys and not having a solid response (which nicely fits into the previous messages in this thread). And because I'm playing gold opponents (weird placement due to launch day?). I remember during the beta I could not for the life of me take a third on star station, I really thought they would remove it, yet here it is on release...
On March 13 2013 23:04 Salv wrote: I have a quick question for Protoss users who know a bit about the history of PvZ throughout WOL and how it evolved. At one point, two base all-ins were very common and the most commonly used strategy, but at some point that changed into a fast third base being the most common. My question is, why (in WOL) did PvZ change from 2 base all-ins / 2 base pressure into a third, change into a fast third base? In PvT you don't need to take a fast third, you can afford to make some units and tech and then take a third, so why is this different in PvZ?
Zergs figuring out how to deal with each Protoss pressure all-in via scouting and an efficient catch-all build.
The Stephano style of roach max was an automatic win against failed pressure or a late, inefficient expand.
Thanks Monk, I read the history from that guide, but I couldn't find where it explicitly stated why a quick third base became preferable.
Why was the Stephano style roach max an automatic win against failed pressure, or more importantly, later expands? I ask because for HOTS, with so many different openings that people are doing (hydralisk/roach, roach, hydralisk/swarm host, swarm host, mutalisk, infestor/ling) it seems very difficult to have a build that can combat all of these effectively when trying to take a third. My limited understanding was that a later expansion was bad for the Protoss because at this point you would be at Zerg late game, which would crush any 2 base compositions you could realistically make and you wouldn't have much time to take advantage of your three base economy. With infestors being a lot less scary in HOTS, I thought maybe a 2 base pressure -> expand style might be viable.
Roaches are extremely larva efficient (75 mins 25 gas for 2 supply, one larva), and crush any Toss gateway unit. Failed pressure means little tech for toss (voids/upgrades/immortals/not many sentries) so holding off roaches off 55 - 60 drones on three base vs your 2 base 50 worker army (with the aforementioned weaknesses was extremely difficult).
On March 14 2013 00:36 ant-1 wrote: Guys, how do you handle the new maps with impossible thirds to take versus Zerg (Star station, Neo Planet S, Bel'shir vestige)? Mass cannons? I veto at least two of them, but it is not a solution...
I also try two base pressure with third taking in the middle of it, but this only works because zergs are busy playing with their new toys and not having a solid response (which nicely fits into the previous messages in this thread). And because I'm playing gold opponents (weird placement due to launch day?). I remember during the beta I could not for the life of me take a third on star station, I really thought they would remove it, yet here it is on release...
On March 14 2013 00:36 ant-1 wrote: Guys, how do you handle the new maps with impossible thirds to take versus Zerg (Star station, Neo Planet S, Bel'shir vestige)? Mass cannons? I veto at least two of them, but it is not a solution...
I also try two base pressure with third taking in the middle of it, but this only works because zergs are busy playing with their new toys and not having a solid response (which nicely fits into the previous messages in this thread). And because I'm playing gold opponents (weird placement due to launch day?). I remember during the beta I could not for the life of me take a third on star station, I really thought they would remove it, yet here it is on release...
i believe that goes into the HotS section?
Ths HotS section is supposed to close anytime soon. But I guess I'll ask it there too.
Yeah i think you can post hots stuff in here from now on. The OP will get updated with hots related questions when we have comipled a few good questions/answers.
EPT
