On August 06 2011 00:43 nichan wrote: what is the best way to apply pressure to a zerg early game can someone show me video. i try pushing early with a stalker zelot to snipe the queen and it works sometimes is there a better way or standard way to punish them early game?
You can try this as long as he gas was delayed:
I believe I talk about some other means of early game pressure as well.
Does this mean that you can generally use the Zeal/Stalker combo if you open GW on maps that are usually FFE maps? Because generally in my experience they go something like 15 pool 16 hatch(on FFE maps to avoid cannon rush), which would make their speed delayed quite a bit, so you COULD do this push, correct? Or would the gas need to be delayed MORE? Such as a Pool Hatch Hatch build.
no, because most Zerg's will still 14/14 regardless unless they feel confident in holding off cannon cheese
I find most Zergs WON'T 14/14 on a FFE map. If I do a regular FFE build, which 99% of the time will happen, then they've invested a drone, 3 drones mining and 100 gas/100minerals into something they literally won't use until about the 11 minute mark, if ever(if they go roach infestor then they obviously won't be using it for example). The only time I could see it being useful is to deny probes from scouting your expos. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
On August 06 2011 04:31 Peterblue wrote: I find most Zergs WON'T 14/14 on a FFE map. If I do a regular FFE build, which 99% of the time will happen, then they've invested a drone, 3 drones mining and 100 gas/100minerals into something they literally won't use until about the 11 minute mark, if ever(if they go roach infestor then they obviously won't be using it for example). The only time I could see it being useful is to deny probes from scouting your expos. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
When I play Zerg on a ffe map, which is like all the new maps, I always go for 14p15h since I'm afraid of cannon shenanigans. The only time I would get speed first would be for an all-in.
On August 06 2011 04:31 Peterblue wrote: I find most Zergs WON'T 14/14 on a FFE map. If I do a regular FFE build, which 99% of the time will happen, then they've invested a drone, 3 drones mining and 100 gas/100minerals into something they literally won't use until about the 11 minute mark, if ever(if they go roach infestor then they obviously won't be using it for example). The only time I could see it being useful is to deny probes from scouting your expos. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
then if not that, pool into hatch. but still trying for some whack aggression with a couple of units wont put you very ahead. you wil be more ahead just going ffe instead of going like 3 gate fe or whatever to apply gateway pressure
On August 06 2011 04:07 CecilSunkure wrote: Yeah though I don't do a 3 Gate Expo to be safe. I'm usually doing it to use my units to force a response from the Z and keep even worker count.
I wasn't going to ask this but because you brought it up...
I watched State vs. Vile (IPL2011) and Protoss poked his head (sentries and one zealot) out at the front of the Zerg base each game to force Zerg to make units instead of drones. When I tried this I feel exposed and scared that lings are going to overrun me or run into my base at any minute.
How/when (if at all) should I make a quick push with my small sentries/zealot army when I 3 gate expo?
On August 06 2011 04:07 CecilSunkure wrote: Yeah though I don't do a 3 Gate Expo to be safe. I'm usually doing it to use my units to force a response from the Z and keep even worker count.
I wasn't going to ask this but because you brought it up...
I watched State vs. Vile (IPL2011) and Protoss poked his head (sentries and one zealot) out at the front of the Zerg base each game to force Zerg to make units instead of drones. When I tried this I feel exposed and scared that lings are going to overrun me or run into my base at any minute.
How/when (if at all) should I make a quick push with my small sentries/zealot army when I 3 gate expo?
You shouldn't, at least not before hallucination or without having read your opponent's build extremely well. The risk of being surrounded and overwhelmed is too great; I rarely see top Ps running around with 1Z+sentries all the way up to Z's main.
On August 06 2011 05:00 stormtemplar wrote: What is a good, safe macro build for PvT? Also, when should I be taking my 3rd-4th?
a lot of them are safe, you just have to know what you're doing and know what's coming. on the ladder i like to two gate robo into an expand. 3 gate fe is good for pressure while expanding, and 1 gate fe is pretty solid too but you have to have good micro and know when to pull probes.
your 3rd and 4th are situational. say he attacks and you come out the victor, expand. if it gets to like the 11-12 min mark of no action or just drops, you can probably take your third around there (if you know you can hold it). or p and t that are of an equal level also expand at around the same time as each other.
continuing on from the robo, I like it for the fast tech, i get 3 colo with wg units and +1 and go attack, taking my third behind it. you don't need to commit, it can just be a "poke" and maybe even get some nice kills, perhaps even out right kill him
This thread is amazing Couple questions: 1. So for PvZ, I do 3G expand and people often say that as toss, you have to move your army around and what not to force the zerg into making units rather than drones. However, when I do this, half the time, my army gets mobbed by mass lings and that often is game-ending for me. Should I not bother moving out with such a sentry-heavy force?
2. Completely unrelated, if I hold off an early pool against Z (say 6-9 pool) with a forge, a gateway and a cannon or two, whats the correct followup. I mean, I should be ahead somewhat so how do I capitalize on that. I feel turning it into a macro game just gives zerg a chance to come back. Whats the correct response?
How do people feel about trying to cannon a hatch first following a FFE? Is it consistent enough to be worth trying, or should I just get my nexus up ASAP and try and keep up in workers?
On August 06 2011 05:13 mahi29 wrote: This thread is amazing Couple questions: 1. So for PvZ, I do 3G expand and people often say that as toss, you have to move your army around and what not to force the zerg into making units rather than drones. However, when I do this, half the time, my army gets mobbed by mass lings and that often is game-ending for me. Should I not bother moving out with such a sentry-heavy force?
2. Completely unrelated, if I hold off an early pool against Z (say 6-9 pool) with a forge, a gateway and a cannon or two, whats the correct followup. I mean, I should be ahead somewhat so how do I capitalize on that. I feel turning it into a macro game just gives zerg a chance to come back. Whats the correct response?
Thanks
1. Yes that's the current weakness of the 3gate expand. A lot of Zergs have figured out a way to punish it with the mass ling/infestor timing, so you should either change your build or be more careful and try to engage at places where you can FF otherwhise you'll need a good L. Make sure you dont overcomitt to your attack. 2. I like following it up with either a stargate or fast DT, both punishes the Z that tries to take an expansion and drone up.
Yes that's the current weakness of the 3gate expand. A lot of Zergs have figured out a way to punish it with the mass ling/infestor timing, so you should either change your build or be more careful and try to engage at places where you can FF otherwhise you'll need a good L. Make sure you dont overcomitt to your attack.
What other builds do you recommend for PvZ? And for maps that are extremely wide open in the middle (Shattered Temple, Xel'Naga), how do I prevent zerg from just powering drones in the 8-10 minute mark, because thats when I'm getting mobbed by lings, when my army consists of 6-8 sentries and a couple of zealots and stalkers [when I go 3G expand] Thanks for the quick reply
Hey hey what to do against infestors, even when I know that they're doing the destiny build and I go for HT's instantly the moment they see me having HT's they just full switch max roaches and tech to broodlords / ultra's I am just to tired to actually ladder because I just can't win against zergs nowadays.
Yes that's the current weakness of the 3gate expand. A lot of Zergs have figured out a way to punish it with the mass ling/infestor timing, so you should either change your build or be more careful and try to engage at places where you can FF otherwhise you'll need a good L. Make sure you dont overcomitt to your attack.
What other builds do you recommend for PvZ? And for maps that are extremely wide open in the middle (Shattered Temple, Xel'Naga), how do I prevent zerg from just powering drones in the 8-10 minute mark, because thats when I'm getting mobbed by lings, when my army consists of 6-8 sentries and a couple of zealots and stalkers [when I go 3G expand] Thanks for the quick reply
Instead, go for a 1 gate expand. With the warpgate nerf and sentry build time buff, it actually comes out ahead of the 3 gate expand in both units and econ. It's also perfectly safe. In addition, with the better econ, you have a wider choice of safe followups, such as stargate, dt, 3 gate push, 5 gate push, 6 gate push, blink, or robo.
Let me be clearer. In my opinion, for PvZ, you need to stay on the offensive to stop his economy from getting too strong, so you need to dictate the flow of the battle. In PvP, i feel you need to play more reactively to what the other player is doing until you have an edge in macro, army size, or positioning that you can exploit and push to win.
What stance do I take in PvT? Should I play aggressively, attacking constantly to keep him on edge? Do I play more passively, teching up to Storm/Colossi and pushing out only when I feel my army is large enough? Do I try to assert map control?
I realize that this depends on style, but what is the "standard" PvT approach?
On August 06 2011 05:46 Requizen wrote: How do high level players approach PvT?
Let me be clearer. In my opinion, for PvZ, you need to stay on the offensive to stop his economy from getting too strong, so you need to dictate the flow of the battle. In PvP, i feel you need to play more reactively to what the other player is doing until you have an edge in macro, army size, or positioning that you can exploit and push to win.
What stance do I take in PvT? Should I play aggressively, attacking constantly to keep him on edge? Do I play more passively, teching up to Storm/Colossi and pushing out only when I feel my army is large enough? Do I try to assert map control?
I realize that this depends on style, but what is the "standard" PvT approach?
i actually think that there really isnt a "standard". the option is completely up to you. i think that if you are comfortable and can execute the aggresive pvt well then you should do that as long as you are not all-in, but playing passively is still not a "wrong" way to play either.
On August 06 2011 00:43 nichan wrote: what is the best way to apply pressure to a zerg early game can someone show me video. i try pushing early with a stalker zelot to snipe the queen and it works sometimes is there a better way or standard way to punish them early game?
I believe I talk about some other means of early game pressure as well.
Does this mean that you can generally use the Zeal/Stalker combo if you open GW on maps that are usually FFE maps? Because generally in my experience they go something like 15 pool 16 hatch(on FFE maps to avoid cannon rush), which would make their speed delayed quite a bit, so you COULD do this push, correct? Or would the gas need to be delayed MORE? Such as a Pool Hatch Hatch build.
What is GW? Gateway? On a map like Shakuras against a hatch first, you'll want to get a fast Nexus. Double Stalker opening can be thwarted with a single spine and 2 queens, making you fall behind. It's best on maps with more open of a natural. If the speed is delayed for only a short period of time however, a double stalker opening is good because they invested 100/100 on ling speed, and thus and spines/extra queens will force the Z to play on even terms, at least that's how I feel.
On August 06 2011 03:27 lazydino wrote: Is 3g expo really dead? Seems like people are using voidray expands ALL THE TIME now.
Lol no. I beat Machine on ladder the other day on Shakuras with 3 Gate Expand.
On August 06 2011 03:47 chaopow wrote: I still like to do standard 3g expo.
Just because a build works for you doesn't mean it's an optimal build. You could just be good at PvZ in other areas. If you have a 70% win ratio PvZ using 3 gate expand every game, it could be possible that you'll have a 80% win ratio PvZ if you used another build.
3 gate expand sucks IMO.
EDIT: While 3 gate expand could be considered "safe," it's not economically safe because the zerg can just mass drone on 3 bases. A FFE can be even safer than a 3 gate expand if you just make 8 cannons. But no, no one does that because you fall economically behind. Same reasoning for 3 gate expand.
Yeah though I don't do a 3 Gate Expo to be safe. I'm usually doing it to use my units to force a response from the Z and keep even worker count.
Yeah but most zergs have realized that 8-9 sentries and 2-3 zealot/stalker doesn't really do anything and they don't have to make any units unless they see you commiting to your attack.
I only 3 gate sentry expand when playing lesser opponents or on stupid maps like that new lava one. On shakuras I definitely don't see why you would want to use that oppening.
Korean protosses I've seen that want to pressure the zerg players a little go 3 gate expand but with much less sentries and more zealot/stalker.
Well I don't get that many Sentries super early, also, you don't have to let them see your Sentries at all. You just have to play intelligently.
On August 06 2011 05:13 mahi29 wrote: This thread is amazing Couple questions: 1. So for PvZ, I do 3G expand and people often say that as toss, you have to move your army around and what not to force the zerg into making units rather than drones. However, when I do this, half the time, my army gets mobbed by mass lings and that often is game-ending for me. Should I not bother moving out with such a sentry-heavy force?
2. Completely unrelated, if I hold off an early pool against Z (say 6-9 pool) with a forge, a gateway and a cannon or two, whats the correct followup. I mean, I should be ahead somewhat so how do I capitalize on that. I feel turning it into a macro game just gives zerg a chance to come back. Whats the correct response?
Thanks
1) You can't blindly move your army around. Your main window of aggression is before ling speed is finished. If this finishes too fast, you'll need to know what the Z is doing with either hallu, obs, probe scouting, hidden pylons, intelligent army/zealot movements, etc.
Against a 6 Pool you can just Forge + Cannon + Probe pull. You can also 2 Gate Zealot against it. Either way you need intelligent probe micro.
On August 06 2011 04:07 CecilSunkure wrote: Yeah though I don't do a 3 Gate Expo to be safe. I'm usually doing it to use my units to force a response from the Z and keep even worker count.
I wasn't going to ask this but because you brought it up...
I watched State vs. Vile (IPL2011) and Protoss poked his head (sentries and one zealot) out at the front of the Zerg base each game to force Zerg to make units instead of drones. When I tried this I feel exposed and scared that lings are going to overrun me or run into my base at any minute.
How/when (if at all) should I make a quick push with my small sentries/zealot army when I 3 gate expo?
You have to really know what you're doing if you move Sentries across the map. If you do not really know what you're doing, then you're just playing blind and risky, which is stupid and you deserve to lose to a ling surround. I suggest getting hallu first! Luckily you can get this very fast due to recent buffs to it's research time.
On August 06 2011 05:46 Requizen wrote: How do high level players approach PvT?
Let me be clearer. In my opinion, for PvZ, you need to stay on the offensive to stop his economy from getting too strong, so you need to dictate the flow of the battle. In PvP, i feel you need to play more reactively to what the other player is doing until you have an edge in macro, army size, or positioning that you can exploit and push to win.
What stance do I take in PvT? Should I play aggressively, attacking constantly to keep him on edge? Do I play more passively, teching up to Storm/Colossi and pushing out only when I feel my army is large enough? Do I try to assert map control?
I realize that this depends on style, but what is the "standard" PvT approach?
i actually think that there really isnt a "standard". the option is completely up to you. i think that if you are comfortable and can execute the aggresive pvt well then you should do that as long as you are not all-in, but playing passively is still not a "wrong" way to play either.
I guess that's fair. However, I'm still curious to see what people consider to be the "safest" way to play PvT.
For example, you can be a super macro Terran in TvZ, but it's widely considered better to be aggressive in the early game to stop the Zerg from getting that macro momentum. Is there a game plan like that for PvT? Or is it really just that flexible? Should I be responding to him, or trying to dictate the flow of battle myself?
EPT
