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On February 17 2011 23:23 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:15 Flyingpants wrote:
This is not a "strategy" or build, this is just tricking the opponent while hidden expanding. It relies on the other person not doing certain things, and even then it could just go wrong at any point. There is no hard counter, all the terren has to do is be better with scouting and he could have amoved and won any time before storms finished.
Obviously when you sit in your base, and let the other person out macro you then build an army comp designed to destroy your comp, you are gonna lose. Everyone has their own opinions, right or wrong, but you are trying way too hard to discredit the build, even saying cloaked banshees are coming right after a 1 gate FE. How can it go wrong? If I make a mistake, it goes wrong.
I've been reading this thread quite meticulously for the past five minutes, and the only part (from what I can tell) that you are wrong about, is that "cloaked banshees are coming right after a 1 rax FE". And that's just a typo.
I saw the game in the GTSL which this build was played, and it worked like a charm. As aforementioned, this is a good build to have in your repertoire in a BoX.
Thank you for posting this strat Mini, glad you did, 'cos now I can try it out on ladder ^^
Edit: The poster before me makes a really good point of how using this "fake" build would be really good after doing a real 3 gate robo during the previous game in a BoX.
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As mentioned, this strategy really only works in the top tier of players (Master+), just because a higher level player will notice these things. I personally go 2 Rax FE against Protoss almost every game and if I saw a small Immortal poke, I'd be VERY cautious of a possible bust and would pull SCVs to be ready to repair the bunkers I have up, causing me to lose mining time.
That being said, I go Thor-Raven into Cloaked banshees after I expand. This effectively shuts down DT play as my Raven pops around the same time DTs would if you FE'd like you said. I'd use my first banshee to first scout for a fast third and then harass....However, if you really hid your first expansion in a very desolate location, I probably wouldn't check there and assume that you went 3 Gate Robo (failed) into late expo.
So the deception of this build would actually work very well. I think it's an excellent idea and people are way too quick to discredit it. It gives you a really fast third and early map control, along with possibly forcing a Terran down a different tech path than they should be. The absolute biggest advantage here is you get your economy up so high so quickly by hiding your first expo and faking a late expansion. I love it.
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On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote:
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
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On February 17 2011 23:59 babishh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote:
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it.
its total valid in a bo5 or so.
and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese.
perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^
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Just thank god they dont do this much vs Zerg.
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So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
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It's a pretty cool idea but I don't like the idea of hidden expansions vs terran. They have way too many ways of finding expos and shutting them down. they only need a couple hundred minerals worth of units and if you're warping in to defend you have to spend a lot more than they do even to break even.
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On February 18 2011 00:10 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:05 skeldark wrote:On February 17 2011 23:59 babishh wrote:On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote:
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see. i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^ This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off.
I posted in the strategie section after long long time and you remind me to stop wasting my time here. so THX!
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On February 18 2011 00:10 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:05 skeldark wrote:On February 17 2011 23:59 babishh wrote:On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote:
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see. i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^ This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off.
seriously you are wrong.
this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in"....
it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time.
and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf
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Someone did something similar to this against me. It's disgusting.
Why did you post this minigun T_T makes me sad.
And on a completely random note, I've noticed that smart players are easier to play against than dumb ones.
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I think this is extremely effective at a high level where you are playing vs someone who thinks and extremely ineffective at all other levels.
I will try it in plat and see what happens, but then again, most T are still doing 1 base all-ins at my level. But I am thinking of just hallu some collossi and take map control. I don't think terrran will push out with bioball off 1/2 base if I show 3-5 colossi, and this would buy me time for HT tech.
Maybe even put down robo, n get some observers (for banshees since they r popular again), n start teching towards HT. So in effect skipping colossi altogether. It would be funny to see some vikings in the air when my HTs come out xD
can someone also test out my idea at a higher level?
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It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
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On February 18 2011 00:17 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:10 stormtemplar wrote:On February 18 2011 00:05 skeldark wrote:On February 17 2011 23:59 babishh wrote:On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote:
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see. i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^ This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off. seriously you are wrong. this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in".... it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time. and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf
This build is not cheese.
Think of it like PvZ, the zerg sometimes makes a far away expo, one reason is for it to not be scouted, and also cause it's really far away to reach. If a Terran FE, he will be slower on his tech to medivacs, he will probably not go hellion right away. All the units in which allow T to have mobility on the map will take longer to reach, this strategy is basically a far away expo but also gives the benefits of tricking an opponent.
If you watched the entire match between IMseed and the T, moving out to attack the far away expo is risky for a T, counteracts are totally viable.
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On February 18 2011 00:13 shenzu88 wrote:
So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
I'll disagree with you there. I tech straight to banshees straight off of a 2 Rax FE and I win ~80% of my games against Protoss that way. A bunker walloff is extremely intimidating and very tough to break if you scout the push coming ahead of time and preemptively bring SCVs to the line to repair. It's definitely a viable strategy, and I've found a delayed banshee to be more effective than a rushed one because by then, the observer is in your base and your opponent should have two bases to try and defend from harass. I can easily get 9-10 kills with my first banshee off the FE.
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On February 18 2011 00:17 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:10 stormtemplar wrote:On February 18 2011 00:05 skeldark wrote:On February 17 2011 23:59 babishh wrote:On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote:
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see. i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^ This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off. seriously you are wrong. this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in".... it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time. and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf
This just in guys, the FD build from SC:BW is cheese, as it relies on false information.
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Pretty cool strategy, thanks Minigun ( by the way i often watch your streaming and your replays, i like your playing style, good job).
About the discussions, you guys have to understand that every strategy has weakness, so this is not because some people find problem with this strategy that it is useless... In fact, more you have different ways to push in the early-mid game, you are more to get succes i think..
I am gonna try this strategy for sure, hope my opponent doesn't read forums on teamliquid.net  !
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On February 18 2011 00:23 shenzu88 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:17 fleeze wrote:On February 18 2011 00:10 stormtemplar wrote:On February 18 2011 00:05 skeldark wrote:On February 17 2011 23:59 babishh wrote:On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote:
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see. i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^ This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off. seriously you are wrong. this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in".... it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time. and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf This build is not cheese. Think of it like PvZ, the zerg sometimes makes a far away expo, one reason is for it to not be scouted, and also cause it's really far away to reach. If a Terran FE, he will be slower on his tech to medivacs, he will probably not go hellion right away. All the units in which allow T to have mobility on the map will take longer to reach, this strategy is basically a far away expo but also gives the benefits of tricking an opponent. If you watched the entire match between IMseed and the T, moving out to attack the far away expo is risky for a T, counteracts are totally viable.
it is definately cheese... you are behind or lose outright if it get's scouted that you are on 1 gate. and you will do anything to prevent your opponent from scouting your base.
i recommend anyone in here to watch the HuK vs QXC on Delta Quadrant from Assmbly. HuK really tricks QXC into thinking he has a way bigger force than he actually has. it's noet exactly the strategy described by minigun but it has a lot of similarity and i think it relies on the same basics.
Edit: anyone saying this is not cheese should reread the correct definitions by zatic
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On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote:
It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Close spawns metal is gonna be pretty rare to see a FE expand terran.
Either way I've been wondering why no races have done any similar variation of the classic fake double from bw, this is similar in a sense so its nice to see. If you get reaper scouted you could still just throw up and cancel.
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EPT
