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On February 18 2011 00:24 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:13 shenzu88 wrote:
So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
I'll disagree with you there. I tech straight to banshees straight off of a 2 Rax FE and I win ~80% of my games against Protoss that way. A bunker walloff is extremely intimidating and very tough to break if you scout the push coming ahead of time and preemptively bring SCVs to the line to repair. It's definitely a viable strategy, and I've found a delayed banshee to be more effective than a rushed one because by then, the observer is in your base and your opponent should have two bases to try and defend from harass. I can easily get 9-10 kills with my first banshee off the FE.
I'm not saying it's not possible to straight tech to Banshee. You are scouting and reacting to his play, which enables you to defend his push. Good.
Terrans should just be aware with the current trend of mass sentries, 6 gates or robo all-ins that FE can just as easily be punished, vice-versa.
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Very cool, op. Not exactly something you would use every game, just a reactive strategy that's nice to have in your arsenal. Gonna try it on ladder for sure.
On February 18 2011 00:35 Slusher wrote:
I have a question for the Terran players in the thread, will the fake robo tech prevent cloak reasearch? or would I still need detection in/near my mineral line.
That's interesting actually. I'm guessing it would certainly discourage cloak, but I wouldn't rely on it completely.
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I have a question for the Terran players in the thread, will the fake robo tech prevent cloak reasearch? or would I still need detection in/near my mineral line.
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A lot you are missing the point where he said that this build ISN'T standard. Its something to have up your sleeve in a tourny setting where you can pull it out on a Bo3 or Bo5.
Thanks Mini
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On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote:
It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Definitely have to agree with you here. I used to do a lot of greedy builds and rushing storm but I have been using nony's build a lot (3gate robo expo ~6mins) and safely teching to colossi and then moving from there. It is a lot more reactive in the sense you can stop all ins much more easily than you can with a 1gate fe vs certain timings. Yeah it's true that your nat kicks in in time for you to get a whole bunch of t1 gateway units but a lot of the time that is not going to cut it.
I feel this style of play, getting a quick hidden expansion propped up on the fact the terran has false information, might work from time to time but I think it's quite risky and a bit of a gimmick.
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On February 18 2011 00:34 shenzu88 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:24 Synystyr wrote:On February 18 2011 00:13 shenzu88 wrote:
So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
I'll disagree with you there. I tech straight to banshees straight off of a 2 Rax FE and I win ~80% of my games against Protoss that way. A bunker walloff is extremely intimidating and very tough to break if you scout the push coming ahead of time and preemptively bring SCVs to the line to repair. It's definitely a viable strategy, and I've found a delayed banshee to be more effective than a rushed one because by then, the observer is in your base and your opponent should have two bases to try and defend from harass. I can easily get 9-10 kills with my first banshee off the FE. I'm not saying it's not possible to straight tech to Banshee. You are scouting and reacting to his play, which enables you to defend his push. Good. Terrans should just be aware with the current trend of mass sentries, 6 gates or robo all-ins that FE can just as easily be punished, vice-versa.
Very true. I won't argue too much about it here since I won't want to derail the thread.
The strength of this build is deception, which allows you build an extremely powerful economy while teching. It's also unorthodox, so many players will not react appropriately or expect the followups to this. It does lose a lot of strength however if the hidden expansion is scouted and Medivacs are available. It's very hard to defend an expo across the other side of the map.
On February 18 2011 00:35 Slusher wrote:
I have a question for the Terran players in the thread, will the fake robo tech prevent cloak reasearch? or would I still need detection in/near my mineral line.
It really depends on player style. Cloak is just an extremely useful spell to have researched. It will always score you a few extra kills because the Protoss simply can't have observers everywhere, so a cannon or two is usually never a bad idea. The potency behind cloak here is the ability to harass at least two (three if you scout it) mineral lines at once. Without robo tech, you simply can't deal with that unless you had the foresight to plant cannons at each base.
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On February 18 2011 00:57 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:42 Alejandrisha wrote:On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote:
It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn. Definitely have to agree with you here. I used to do a lot of greedy builds and rushing storm but I have been using nony's build a lot (3gate robo expo ~6mins) and safely teching to colossi and then moving from there. It is a lot more reactive in the sense you can stop all ins much more easily than you can with a 1gate fe vs certain timings. Yeah it's true that your nat kicks in in time for you to get a whole bunch of t1 gateway units but a lot of the time that is not going to cut it. I feel this style of play, getting a quick hidden expansion propped up on the fact the terran has false information, might work from time to time but I think it's quite risky and a bit of a gimmick. Can you link me to some replays/a guide for that? It sounds interesting.
Yep I'll upload a couple as soon as I get home from work.
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What would happen if you scouted terran going towards mech? Do you still do the same high templar 2 forge mass gateway unit? Seems like you might have to steer towards robo units instead. Also, I'd like to see another replay if you get one where terran does a 2 base mass MM attack, instead of just chillin all game while you get high temps and a really fast three bases.
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These are the kind of build concepts and constructive thinking that are going to accelerate SC2's metagame and entertainment value!
Frankly, this game with IMSeed was so much fun to watch, the game had a life of its own, not only because the build was new, but because it was clear that Seed knew how to do this well. He faked Hyperdub out REAL hard, and I can only imagine how red his ears were after he realized they were fake.
Plays like this also keep Terran's on their toes. In a generally Terran dominated early-game these kinds of strategies are super useful! They can put your opponent on tilt from a very early point, making them second guess their builds and unit comp because, "what if that was fake??". I can't wait until more Protoss players use moves like this to really keep Terran's guessing.
I guess that is what I like about it so much, it keeps Terrans guessing in the early game. Usually a Terran can sit back, FE, mass MMM and be totally safe with bunkers and turrets. Well that is based on them knowing what the Protoss is doing. However, if Protoss players can constantly threaten then by faking one set of tech and taking the counter's counter the mind games become amazingly high level. Trying to make the snap decision as to whether that immortal was hallucinated and whether to counter 3gate robo becomes such a huge decision because, like Minigun has said, they have to defend it to be safe.
I can see this being super effective on the massive new maps like Tal'Darim and Terminus. Taking another main or nat/third on one of these maps can ensure that the Terran will have no idea what is going on unless they waste a super important early game scan. Imagine if the Terran wastes 3 scans trying to find your hidden expo? That is ~1000 minerals they wasted to find your 400 mineral expo. Pretty cost effective imo.
Can't wait to see these kinds of strats in GSL March!!
EDIT:
Also, wanted to add (before someone thought I was saying that this should be standard or some bull), this should never be a "go to strategy" I would consider this something to be used during a BO5 series (bo3 is still kinda short) in order to break your opponents confidence or win streak.
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Edit: nvm fail by me.
Love this strat. Hopefully we will see more things like this.
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Saw you do this build a few times on your stream. Worked surprisingly well
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Ahhhh mind games... the glorious joy of every strategy game.
I'd love to try this strat, but I'm nowhere near high diamond and the guys I get to face in ladder don't react the way they should (and neither do I  ).
But still, great use of hallucination and a really unique, although unorthodox, build. I think you should mention that this strat should be used only if you feel confortable maintaining map control, as it is a must to make this work.
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but what kind of 3 gate robo doesn't at all engage at high level of play? =\
I dunno =/ I guess it's worth doing once in a while.
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On February 18 2011 01:22 Kiarip wrote:
but what kind of 3 gate robo doesn't at all engage at high level of play? =\
I dunno =/ I guess it's worth doing once in a while.
The kind that sees bunkers with SCVs ready to repair and decides that it would be suicidal to try and break it. If they don't push, they at least have map control and a larger army at that point. They'll be behind on economy, but at least they still have a fighting chance and can instead try for a proxy warpin or drop play to circumvent the defenses.
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Wait, are you playing protoss again on your stream? I completely stopped following when you were going terran for a long stretch.
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I think this is a really good mindgame strategy design to mess around with your opponents. The only problem i see is that it is possible to see the deficit in the sentries' energy and deduce it to be fake immortals if your opponent is really on the ball but i doubt he will be that alert even at really high levels most of the time, since you generally get glimpses of the army only
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On February 18 2011 01:14 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:03 Alejandrisha wrote:On February 18 2011 00:57 stormtemplar wrote:On February 18 2011 00:42 Alejandrisha wrote:On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote:
It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn. Definitely have to agree with you here. I used to do a lot of greedy builds and rushing storm but I have been using nony's build a lot (3gate robo expo ~6mins) and safely teching to colossi and then moving from there. It is a lot more reactive in the sense you can stop all ins much more easily than you can with a 1gate fe vs certain timings. Yeah it's true that your nat kicks in in time for you to get a whole bunch of t1 gateway units but a lot of the time that is not going to cut it. I feel this style of play, getting a quick hidden expansion propped up on the fact the terran has false information, might work from time to time but I think it's quite risky and a bit of a gimmick. Can you link me to some replays/a guide for that? It sounds interesting. Yep I'll upload a couple as soon as I get home from work. Thanks a lot. I need some PvT builds that don't die to HUGE early pushes. 1 gate is good, but I need a good small map build.
yeah i've pretty much scrapped my 1gate fe because of all the terrible maps and silly terrans who like to proxy tech labbed raxes all over the map O_O
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There seems to be a very long timing window in which he just could roflstomp you because your templars arent out yet.
What i thought was weird about the replay is the terran scanned your probe train + no natural but didnt push, he shouldve known that something fishy is going on.
its risky but if your opponent is passive you get a huge advantage by ninja expoing.
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EPT
