EPTThe "fake" 3 gate robo, 1 gate expand - Page 8
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drooL
United Kingdom2108 Posts
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Prinny-tai
United States71 Posts
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nb3221a
United States35 Posts
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
I also feel like there's a strong timing for the terran when you put down your third nexus and start teching charge/double forge/high templar etc. Then again there's no incentive for the terran to attack at that point unless he scouted your nexus. He thinks you failed a 3-gate robo attack and wants to milk his expansion as much as he can. Attacking before he has had a considerable economic benefit from his expand makes no sense unless he senses that something is up. If you manage to fool the terran then sure, this is a great build. And tbh most terrans would probably get fooled by this if they have never seen it before. Really cool strategy but also a one-time only vs the same player imo. Will be sure to try this strategy out on ladder, thanks for sharing! | ||
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
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SgtSquiglz
United States668 Posts
On February 19 2011 15:20 Minigun wrote: I'm not attached to it at all, I just like strats to have a fair chance, before they are bashed. Every strat has flaws, just about every strat has a counter if scouted, no? People are pointing out such obvious things. -What if it gets scouted? deny scouting obviously -What if he scans the probe transfer? well if scans your dark shrine you are screwed as well, pick a good time to do it. etc etc etc I mean I kind of know why top players don't bother posting here. Aw, Mini, dont get that mentality! I love reading about these new strategies, especially coming from high profile players such as yourself. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. imo, its definitely a clever strat. I love hearing new things to try out (even though I can rarely pull them off very well...) Gonna try it out after I'm done with midterms this week =P | ||
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SetStndbySmn
United States657 Posts
Yesterday I used it in mid-master with great results; he had 7 scvs pulled for around 1 minute, and I was able to take another main as a 3rd really quickly. Because of the economic advantages of this open, I actually had the resources to respond to mech with carriers in a timely manner, which felt awesome ^_^. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
I first want to tip my cap to Minigun for coming up with this build. Its thought out and very solid against FE Terrans. A lot of people are trying to poke holes in it and find weaknesses. But like Minigun said it is very viable under the conditions he suggested. First off, many Terran's don't scout the 3rd or 4th bases for hidden expos and they definitely don't waste a mule on (via scanings) all of the expos. Also like he said this is an advanced strat not because its difficult to pull off tactically but because you are relying on the Terran to be intelligent. There is a huge Meta game that goes on between players at the highest skill level. They know exactly what the other race is capable of. This build feeds Terran false information through hallucination to lead them to another conclusion. When Terran doesn't see the natural expo go down he will assume 1 base play by toss. Yes he might scout with an SCV for hidden expos at this point but you have map control, you should deny all scouting. Thus making him conclude even more that you are 1 basing. Terran will not scan anywhere but your ramp for army composition or possibly your main for tech information. That is why you hide your tech (or lack there of) in an uncommon location. In addition, I have a replay to post. It was in customs Xel'Naga but the match was a Master level game so there is something to take away from it. However with that being said, my replay is not identical to Minigun's post. First my expo was not hidden and I did not 1 gate FE, but my opponent did 1 Rax FE. I tried to 3 gate contain into an expo which failed miserably. I was practicing the strat in customs before using it on ladder. However I was far from dead (just that my contain was poorly executed). I decided to expand immediately then made a 4th gate and got hallucination. I was thinking that I could hallucinate a larger army to make my attack more threatening. When the battle started I hallucinated 3 Immortals and "surprising" continued to stomp his army. He pulled SCV's as well, and this is with fake Immortals. Granted I caught him with his pants down because a moment before he salvaged his bunker but stim also finished at that time so he felt the threat was over. Also I will be the first to say he microed his units poorly initially. (Basically walked right into my Zealots) This goes to show how weak 1 Rax FE really is. Mini you can include it in the original post if you want or not. I'm just throwing it out there. P.S the ideal composition is Zealots/Sentries/(4-5 Stalkers max) and then hallucinate the approximate number of immortals you think is viable by that point. He might get suspicious if you have too much gas in your army comp so be wary of making too many sentries/stalkers. Here's the link: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=203384#/replay_overview Also I stayed in game for a while after. This is how I practice my macro and so I can smooth out my mechanics/game plan assuming the match hadn't ended. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
As a protoss myself, this was SO AWESOME to see. You 100% completely manipulated the situation, and took massive advantage from it. This displays amazingly creative use of Hallucination, which itself is something that is still VERY underused. This proves that there is some innovative strategies involving Hallucination that have yet to be seen. Also, I just want to say to anyone that wants to know what drove me to come write this post and thank Minigun so heavily... At the VERY end of the game, RIGHT before the end of the match... trying to picture the look on that terran's face IRL when he scanned and saw the ninja expo with such production / economy, is absolutely priceless. His actions throughout the entire game (from the playercam) make it clear that he thought he was so far ahead... 10/10. I'm going to ladder to try this now. (obviously I know it's a situational build... hopefully I can create the ideal situation  ) | ||
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will.pity
Australia89 Posts
Is this a case where the strategy could fail? If your spread out on 3 base quickly you wont really be able to defend if he does scout it. | ||
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askTeivospy
1525 Posts
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
makes me wish i played protoss and not zerg ^_^ thanks for sharing. | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
On February 17 2011 20:15 Dommk wrote: What if they remain completely oblivious and do a stim timing attack? Do you think you would be able to hold it off? The first rule of bluffing is to never bluff an idiot. | ||
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Jinsho
United Kingdom3101 Posts
A "strategy" that relies on the other person to make a mistake is not a strategy. It's cheese by definition. This is metagaming, cheese, playing the player, mindgames, call it as you will. | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
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Ravomat
Germany423 Posts
On April 16 2011 18:11 Jinsho wrote: If this won't work against a Platinum player "because he's too dumb to react properly", it's not a strategy. A "strategy" that relies on the other person to make a mistake is not a strategy. It's cheese by definition. This is metagaming, cheese, playing the player, mindgames, call it as you will. That is just great. Throwing in a bunch of terms and dismissing this build as bad with no basis for discussion. 3 of those terms basically mean the same thing and remember that it worked in the GSTL. This build relies on giving away wrong tells. Of course this build bears a high risk but you get a high reward if you do it correctly and pull it off. Personally I'd ban your ass just for your ignorance. So if you truly think this is cheese then you are going to be delighted to hear about the adjustments I would do to play this build. I'd get a lot more sentries for 2 reasons: to get the 4th gate earlier for safety & being able to hallucinate more and whatever you want. This is important because you need to hide the sentries in case players start to pay more attention to sentry energy levels. So you don't bring the sentries because you do not want to show that you would be able to do hallucination play and more importantly having a lot of sentries means you are spending your minerals elsewhere i.e. on a Nexus. Then you need to make sure hallucinated units never shoot. At all. In Miniguns replay the hallucinated immortal shoots at a scv and if his opponent had noticed this it would be a much different game. It's unfortunate that there is only 1 (2) replay(s) but I think it certainly is viable as long as you're cautious enough to not screw up and aggressive enough that your opponent really believes you are going to attack him. So no this is certainly no strategy that would ever work in platinum league because not knowing what the proper response is is not a mistake it's lacking gameplay knowledge. | ||
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Synapze
Canada563 Posts
Now you would say something like, well yes.. I want him to think that. True enough, but 9/10 terrans (including myself 4k last season) will have a turret with their bunkers if they have no scouting information except a lack of expansion as they have to prepare for both voidray and DT. I am also curious when you push? If you're pushing at the same time a regular 3gate robo is with a similar amount of illusioned units, then your DT's are going to be late (or at least I would assume). This is interesting though... if the Terran doesn't turret based on the absence of scouting information I would consider that a grave mistake.. especially if hes expanding. Heck, if you're fighting a guy with no turrets at 7:00 + you might as well have just gone DT to begin with.. but that's only my opinion lol This strat is like a triple head fake.. you went for one too many and faked yourself out. | ||
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theLiminator
Canada57 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 16 2011 21:14 Synapze wrote: I don't see this opening working that well to be honest.. why would a terran have 2+ bunkers up without any signs of immortal until the fact? Sure, he may assume you're cheesing but I'm pretty sure every terran that doesn't see an expo before 6:00 assumes that. Now you would say something like, well yes.. I want him to think that. True enough, but 9/10 terrans (including myself 4k last season) will have a turret with their bunkers if they have no scouting information except a lack of expansion as they have to prepare for both voidray and DT. I am also curious when you push? If you're pushing at the same time a regular 3gate robo is with a similar amount of illusioned units, then your DT's are going to be late (or at least I would assume). This is interesting though... if the Terran doesn't turret based on the absence of scouting information I would consider that a grave mistake.. especially if hes expanding. Heck, if you're fighting a guy with no turrets at 7:00 + you might as well have just gone DT to begin with.. but that's only my opinion lol This strat is like a triple head fake.. you went for one too many and faked yourself out. Um, if a terran sees a lot of sentries/stalkers for hallucination, why the hell would you assume stargate or dark templars? If you put a turret based on a FAILED assumption (because you don't know how to analyze army compositions), then you BLINDLY countered it. Congrats. Anyways, NO good terran will assume DT's and void rays off of a medium sized stalker/sentry army. I don't know why you even typed that. | ||
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