This strategy was seen in the GSTL IMSeed(P) vs oGsHyperdub(T)
This is not for the lower levels, the people in bronze-low diamond won't even react to the immortals.
If you see them fast expand, the goal is to 1 gate FE, into a secret location that cannot be easily scanned/scouted and preferably on your side. You hide your buildings, so he cannot see when you built/ are building them. Research hallucination after warpgate tech is done.
You push, hallucinating a few immortals onto his expansion. Make sure you are out of sight when you finally catch sight of his bunkers. DO NOT ENGAGE this is very important. Also, do NOT let them disappear in his line of sight. You make him pull scvs, just wasting mining time for him, and whenever people are under pressure, they GENERALLY tend to make mistakes. They HAVE to pull scvs, they can't afford to be wrong, if they don't it's an easy rofl stomp for you (if you were actually 3 gate 1 roboing).
From here you back off, (preferably at your watchtower so he can't scan your army and see no more immortals) and create your third nexus to make it look like a failed 3 gate robo. Now, you throw down a twilight + 2 forges. You get charge, and either dark shrine, or high Templar. If he has easy access to a raven, or missile turrets at each expansion, go high Templar. However if he does not, use warp prism dts! Spread your dts well, and you can do a TON of damage. I will attach a few replays.
Sorry I am kinda thin on replays atm, I do not feel like searching through all of them.
On February 17 2011 20:15 Dommk wrote: What if they remain completely oblivious and do a stim timing attack? Do you think you would be able to hold it off?
Unless you fail with dts or something you should be able to hold anything off.
On February 17 2011 20:15 Dommk wrote: What if they remain completely oblivious and do a stim timing attack? Do you think you would be able to hold it off?
This is why you only do it against very good players who WILL notice it and react, as he mentioned.
This strategy was seen in the GSTL SEED (p) vs (terran...if someone can help me with the name that would be great)
This is not for the lower levels, the people in bronze-low diamond won't even react to the immortals.
If you see them fast expand, the goal is to 1 gate FE, into a secret location that cannot be easily scanned/scouted and preferably on your side. You hide your buildings, so he cannot see when you built/ are building them. Research hallucination after warpgate tech is done.
You push, hallucinating a few immortals onto his expansion. Make sure you are out of sight when you finally catch sight of his bunkers. DO NOT ENGAGE this is very important. Also, do NOT let them disappear in his line of sight. You make him pull scvs, just wasting mining time for him, and whenever people are under pressure, they GENERALLY tend to make mistakes. They HAVE to pull scvs, they can't afford to be wrong, if they don't it's an easy rofl stomp for you (if you were actually 3 gate 1 roboing).
From here you back off, (preferably at your watchtower so he can't scan your army and see no more immortals) and create your third nexus to make it look like a failed 3 gate robo. Now, you throw down a twilight + 2 forges. You get charge, and either dark shrine, or high Templar. If he has easy access to a raven, or missile turrets at each expansion, go high Templar. However if he does not, use warp prism dts! Spread your dts well, and you can do a TON of damage. I will attach a few replays.
Sorry I am kinda thin on replays atm, I do not feel like searching through all of them.
This strategy was seen in the GSTL SEED (p) vs (terran...if someone can help me with the name that would be great)
This is not for the lower levels, the people in bronze-low diamond won't even react to the immortals.
If you see them fast expand, the goal is to 1 gate FE, into a secret location that cannot be easily scanned/scouted and preferably on your side. You hide your buildings, so he cannot see when you built/ are building them. Research hallucination after warpgate tech is done.
You push, hallucinating a few immortals onto his expansion. Make sure you are out of sight when you finally catch sight of his bunkers. DO NOT ENGAGE this is very important. Also, do NOT let them disappear in his line of sight. You make him pull scvs, just wasting mining time for him, and whenever people are under pressure, they GENERALLY tend to make mistakes. They HAVE to pull scvs, they can't afford to be wrong, if they don't it's an easy rofl stomp for you (if you were actually 3 gate 1 roboing).
From here you back off, (preferably at your watchtower so he can't scan your army and see no more immortals) and create your third nexus to make it look like a failed 3 gate robo. Now, you throw down a twilight + 2 forges. You get charge, and either dark shrine, or high Templar. If he has easy access to a raven, or missile turrets at each expansion, go high Templar. However if he does not, use warp prism dts! Spread your dts well, and you can do a TON of damage. I will attach a few replays.
Sorry I am kinda thin on replays atm, I do not feel like searching through all of them.
The only problem I see is a terran realizing you don't actually attack him while you are supposed to be (in his mind) on a army advantage & economic disadvantage. The strat seems rather frail (like any hidden fe strat) if your opponent smells something is up.
On February 17 2011 20:40 Schwopzi wrote: The only problem I see is a terran realizing you don't actually attack him while you are supposed to be (in his mind) on a army advantage & economic disadvantage. The strat seems rather frail (like any hidden fe strat) if your opponent smells something is up.
People do sometimes not attack if they see 2+ bunkers or so. So it's perfectly believable. ESPECIALLY with the under use of hallucination. It's not frail at all, if I did this to you, you wouldn't suspect a thing.
On February 17 2011 20:50 antihero_ wrote: Don't have a link but it was IMSeed vs oGsHyperdub on Lost Temple iirc.
On February 17 2011 20:40 Schwopzi wrote: The only problem I see is a terran realizing you don't actually attack him while you are supposed to be (in his mind) on a army advantage & economic disadvantage. The strat seems rather frail (like any hidden fe strat) if your opponent smells something is up.
People do sometimes not attack if they see 2+ bunkers or so. So it's perfectly believable. ESPECIALLY with the under use of hallucination. It's not frail at all, if I did this to you, you wouldn't suspect a thing.
No, the strat is pretty cool, but I don't think it's something stable, like every strategy that requires this kind of manipulation. If it happens often enough, people will start hiding scvs around the map to check for hidden expansions. It's probably best used on any 4 player map where you can spawn in close spots so you don't have to do some colossus 1base shenanigans, but I certainly wouldn't try it on 2 player maps.
On February 17 2011 21:36 m3rciless wrote: Why are miniguns posts light blue? Its pretty cool.
He is both a high level player and has been a consistent contributor of good, useful information to the Starcraft 2 Strategy forum. TeamLiquid has recognized a number of folks who have an excellent posting history and the skill to back it up by highlighting their posts in the strategy forum so that they can be picked out of the crowd. You can read about it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193846
On February 17 2011 20:40 Schwopzi wrote: The only problem I see is a terran realizing you don't actually attack him while you are supposed to be (in his mind) on a army advantage & economic disadvantage. The strat seems rather frail (like any hidden fe strat) if your opponent smells something is up.
People do sometimes not attack if they see 2+ bunkers or so. So it's perfectly believable. ESPECIALLY with the under use of hallucination. It's not frail at all, if I did this to you, you wouldn't suspect a thing.
On February 17 2011 20:50 antihero_ wrote: Don't have a link but it was IMSeed vs oGsHyperdub on Lost Temple iirc.
Thanks.
Ye I wouldn't suspect someone who posted a strat on TL to actually execute it in a game. Sigh.
It also seems detectable through sentry energy, since some of your sentries where below 50 energy.
Ok, so you can tell the difference between my 3 gate robo and this opening?
I don't think you can, you will pull scvs, both times, because you can't afford to be wrong.
On February 17 2011 21:43 Zaphid wrote: They dipped him in color.
No, the strat is pretty cool, but I don't think it's something stable, like every strategy that requires this kind of manipulation. If it happens often enough, people will start hiding scvs around the map to check for hidden expansions. It's probably best used on any 4 player map where you can spawn in close spots so you don't have to do some colossus 1base shenanigans, but I certainly wouldn't try it on 2 player maps.
This is best for tournament play, best out of 3's best out of 5's, it's good to have one of these strats lying around.
Still doable in ladder though
On February 17 2011 21:48 Space Invader wrote: Well they could pretty easily hide an scv, if they scout out with an scv and see no robo units, or if they scan, or if they float a barracks.
If they hide a SCV, you failed in scouting. Your scouting probe, should see if his returns or not, if it doesn't, guess what, it's somewhere on the map!
Take your initial stalker, and go find it.
This is so easy to hide, you just have to be active with map control.
I'm already loving this. Getting away with a bluff... I knew hallucination could be that good, but I would really like to see creative bluff again. I remember when people scouted my 1 gate robo, then I cancelled my robo and get 3 other gates. It's the same, but with everything planned, and it's totally mindblowing.
I think hallucination is going to have a huge impact in the next months on SC2.
On February 17 2011 21:48 Space Invader wrote: Well they could pretty easily hide an scv, if they scout out with an scv and see no robo units, or if they scan, or if they float a barracks.
Making every possible excuse..
The stalker could kill it, you know. If you place your buildings in different sections, he won't be able to scout it. If he's about to go over your army, either run away, or hallucinate.
Also, I like how one of the posters is saying he can tell the difference of this build..
What if it was a real 3 gate robo and you didn't pull SCV's?
edit: 1 Gate FE uses lots of stalkers or zealot/sentries btw, so proxy raxes will get taken down quite fast. Building placement prevents the rax from scouting all the buildings so he won't be able to see the robo. Toss doesn't have to have his army on the ramp if he knows terran is at home so that also prevents the scan success.
I don't like this build at all, looks like it would only work for dumb terrens. First of all, he almost SAW one of the immortals disappear several times, secondly scouting with hallucinate pheonix? Why would you be doing that if you had a robo, obviously you would have observer, hints to something strange. Thirdly you are just hoping he doesn't scout you at any point or scan your army, a proxy rax flying over your base would see, oh no robo, lets go kill you with marooders.
And with such a late robo, you would pretty much auto lose to banshees.
And you also got lucky that he didn't scan your base/army.
Anyways, funny how 1gate expand is excessively greedy, but 1rax expo would be unbreakable. Bunkers OP
He opened 1 gate into proxy DT with hidden expo. while watching i wondered because HuKs build seemed strange and very vulnerable. good to know it is a well known strategy
On February 17 2011 22:12 Flyingpants wrote: I don't like this build at all, looks like it would only work for dumb terrens. First of all, he almost SAW one of the immortals disappear several times, secondly scouting with hallucinate pheonix? Why would you be doing that if you had a robo, obviously you would have observer, hints to something strange. Thirdly you are just hoping he doesn't scout you at any point or scan your army, a proxy rax flying over your base would see, oh no robo, lets go kill you with marooders.
And with such a late robo, you would pretty much auto lose to banshees.
And you also got lucky that he didn't scan your base/army.
Anyways, funny how 1gate expand is excessively greedy, but 1rax expo would be unbreakable. Bunkers OP
It works against every terran I have tried it at in my league, on NA and KR. It doesn't just work against DUMB terrans. He's gonna expo then magically have cloaked banshees?
You deny all scouting...please read previous posts. Why would he scan my army when it's right at his front door?
You seem to be throwing out illogical statements trying to poke holes in it.
On February 17 2011 22:19 Space Invader wrote: I listed all the common methods of scouting by Terran... Don't know why you're both getting defensive about it.
I wasn't being defensive, you were just pointing out common techniques in which terran scouts, which can so easily be stopped by this build.
This strategy seems very valid to me. As Minigun pointed out it is important also to have unorthodox strategies in your arsenal instead of playing standard every single time, especially in tournaments. Bo5s are won with mind not mechanics.
The people who say that this can be scouted are of course equally right, people could hide an SCV somewhere out there to scout the hidden expo, low sentry energy could be a very weak tell, or the terran could do a timing scan where he sees Cybernetics Core researching after warpgate tech is done. The problem is that hardcountering this build in a competitive setting seems far fetched as nobody is really using it yet and this makes all the counter arguments theorycrafting while it it useless to request replays of a counter as I assume no such replay exists yet.
Anyway, thanks to Minigun for shedding some light on this new strategy.
This is not a "strategy" or build, this is just tricking the opponent while hidden expanding. It relies on the other person not doing certain things, and even then it could just go wrong at any point. There is no hard counter, all the terren has to do is be better with scouting and he could have amoved and won any time before storms finished.
Obviously when you sit in your base, and let the other person out macro you then build an army comp designed to destroy your comp, you are gonna lose.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl1/vod/60740 Set 3 of IM vs OGS. It's a thought out build. Like any build it has certain risks but its good to see innovative play doing well in korea and i'm really excited to see how mini is gonna continue to wow us with his exciting play and less orthodox style. Hallucination play is sexy.
On February 17 2011 23:15 Flyingpants wrote: This is not a "strategy" or build, this is just tricking the opponent while hidden expanding. It relies on the other person not doing certain things, and even then it could just go wrong at any point. There is no hard counter, all the terren has to do is be better with scouting and he could have amoved and won any time before storms finished.
Obviously when you sit in your base, and let the other person out macro you then build an army comp designed to destroy your comp, you are gonna lose.
Everyone has their own opinions, right or wrong, but you are trying way too hard to discredit the build, even saying cloaked banshees are coming right after a 1 gate FE. How can it go wrong? If I make a mistake, it goes wrong.
As t: i mostly go faster reaper scout so i would see no robo and no exp.
if you kill him fast enough i would most likely think i missed a place in your base when you imortals atack. and most likely if i see you go back with your failed robo push into exp i would go allin 2 min later to take the risk free win and run into my death. sounds like a good build to me.
if the reaper survie he will check over bases just in case. so from now on i will focus on holding him alive and if not check for hidden with rine all time ^^ this build could get popular...
---- PS: didnt read the strategie section for long time and when i read some post here i remember why...
My TvP is all based on scouting exaclty when the P is expoing. I have scvs always checking natural and near-by expansions, so il either catch your expo unless you expand on the side of the map which seems like it would be the perfect target for unlimited drop harass. I like the idea of the build tho. Hallucination is so accesible now compared to BW and yet no one has put it to a consistent use yet.
I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
Thanks for the contribution Minigun, I'm not a protoss or a terran, so I doubt it will affect me, but I can tell you put a lot of thought into it and it seems like a really nice build to me. The sort of thing I would see a really smart Toss do in a Bo5 like you said, especially right after doing a real 3gate robo. If the attack timings with the real and the fake immortals are the same, this would really screw up a Terran and give the toss a nice win methinks.
On February 17 2011 23:15 Flyingpants wrote: This is not a "strategy" or build, this is just tricking the opponent while hidden expanding. It relies on the other person not doing certain things, and even then it could just go wrong at any point. There is no hard counter, all the terren has to do is be better with scouting and he could have amoved and won any time before storms finished.
Obviously when you sit in your base, and let the other person out macro you then build an army comp designed to destroy your comp, you are gonna lose.
Everyone has their own opinions, right or wrong, but you are trying way too hard to discredit the build, even saying cloaked banshees are coming right after a 1 gate FE. How can it go wrong? If I make a mistake, it goes wrong.
I've been reading this thread quite meticulously for the past five minutes, and the only part (from what I can tell) that you are wrong about, is that "cloaked banshees are coming right after a 1 rax FE". And that's just a typo.
I saw the game in the GTSL which this build was played, and it worked like a charm. As aforementioned, this is a good build to have in your repertoire in a BoX.
Thank you for posting this strat Mini, glad you did, 'cos now I can try it out on ladder ^^
Edit: The poster before me makes a really good point of how using this "fake" build would be really good after doing a real 3 gate robo during the previous game in a BoX.
As mentioned, this strategy really only works in the top tier of players (Master+), just because a higher level player will notice these things. I personally go 2 Rax FE against Protoss almost every game and if I saw a small Immortal poke, I'd be VERY cautious of a possible bust and would pull SCVs to be ready to repair the bunkers I have up, causing me to lose mining time.
That being said, I go Thor-Raven into Cloaked banshees after I expand. This effectively shuts down DT play as my Raven pops around the same time DTs would if you FE'd like you said. I'd use my first banshee to first scout for a fast third and then harass....However, if you really hid your first expansion in a very desolate location, I probably wouldn't check there and assume that you went 3 Gate Robo (failed) into late expo.
So the deception of this build would actually work very well. I think it's an excellent idea and people are way too quick to discredit it. It gives you a really fast third and early map control, along with possibly forcing a Terran down a different tech path than they should be. The absolute biggest advantage here is you get your economy up so high so quickly by hiding your first expo and faking a late expansion. I love it.
On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote: I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote: I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^
So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
It's a pretty cool idea but I don't like the idea of hidden expansions vs terran. They have way too many ways of finding expos and shutting them down. they only need a couple hundred minerals worth of units and if you're warping in to defend you have to spend a lot more than they do even to break even.
On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote: I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^
This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off.
I posted in the strategie section after long long time and you remind me to stop wasting my time here. so THX!
On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote: I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^
This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off.
seriously you are wrong. this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in".... it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time. and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf
I think this is extremely effective at a high level where you are playing vs someone who thinks and extremely ineffective at all other levels.
I will try it in plat and see what happens, but then again, most T are still doing 1 base all-ins at my level. But I am thinking of just hallu some collossi and take map control. I don't think terrran will push out with bioball off 1/2 base if I show 3-5 colossi, and this would buy me time for HT tech.
Maybe even put down robo, n get some observers (for banshees since they r popular again), n start teching towards HT. So in effect skipping colossi altogether. It would be funny to see some vikings in the air when my HTs come out xD
can someone also test out my idea at a higher level?
It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote: I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^
This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off.
seriously you are wrong. this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in".... it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time. and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf
This build is not cheese.
Think of it like PvZ, the zerg sometimes makes a far away expo, one reason is for it to not be scouted, and also cause it's really far away to reach. If a Terran FE, he will be slower on his tech to medivacs, he will probably not go hellion right away. All the units in which allow T to have mobility on the map will take longer to reach, this strategy is basically a far away expo but also gives the benefits of tricking an opponent.
If you watched the entire match between IMseed and the T, moving out to attack the far away expo is risky for a T, counteracts are totally viable.
On February 18 2011 00:13 shenzu88 wrote: So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
I'll disagree with you there. I tech straight to banshees straight off of a 2 Rax FE and I win ~80% of my games against Protoss that way. A bunker walloff is extremely intimidating and very tough to break if you scout the push coming ahead of time and preemptively bring SCVs to the line to repair. It's definitely a viable strategy, and I've found a delayed banshee to be more effective than a rushed one because by then, the observer is in your base and your opponent should have two bases to try and defend from harass. I can easily get 9-10 kills with my first banshee off the FE.
On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote: I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^
This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off.
seriously you are wrong. this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in".... it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time. and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf
This just in guys, the FD build from SC:BW is cheese, as it relies on false information.
Pretty cool strategy, thanks Minigun ( by the way i often watch your streaming and your replays, i like your playing style, good job).
About the discussions, you guys have to understand that every strategy has weakness, so this is not because some people find problem with this strategy that it is useless... In fact, more you have different ways to push in the early-mid game, you are more to get succes i think..
I am gonna try this strategy for sure, hope my opponent doesn't read forums on teamliquid.net !
On February 17 2011 23:34 Welmu wrote: I think this is little bit cheesy, strategy which could work if it tricks opponent... I wouldn't recommend practising this as "standard" build, but for bo3's or bo5's
i have no clue on how you can call this strat cheesy. seriously, people should quit using this word for every f*****g strat they see.
i think this strategie is really not bad and even if i play terran i like it. its total valid in a bo5 or so. and i think its not a little bit its 100% cheese. perhaps you should look up what cheesy means before you complain ^^
This is not in any sense cheese. ITS A DISGUISED 1 GATE. 1 gate is a solid build. Sure the far away expo is a bit risky, but it is not all in. At all. Period. You play terran, and clearly dunno what you're talking about. I use a standard 1 gate in most of my PvTs. Also, please use grammers and refrain from using a smily. You come off really condescending, and you have no clue what you're talking about, so you just look like an ass. I don't know if you were or not, this is the internet, but thats how you came off.
seriously you are wrong. this strategy is 100% cheese, as cheese is defined as "relies on not being scouted" and NOT "being all-in".... it really hurts reading those false informations on the forums all the time. and btw your post makes yourself look an even bigger ass... semantics flames... wtf
This build is not cheese.
Think of it like PvZ, the zerg sometimes makes a far away expo, one reason is for it to not be scouted, and also cause it's really far away to reach. If a Terran FE, he will be slower on his tech to medivacs, he will probably not go hellion right away. All the units in which allow T to have mobility on the map will take longer to reach, this strategy is basically a far away expo but also gives the benefits of tricking an opponent.
If you watched the entire match between IMseed and the T, moving out to attack the far away expo is risky for a T, counteracts are totally viable.
it is definately cheese... you are behind or lose outright if it get's scouted that you are on 1 gate. and you will do anything to prevent your opponent from scouting your base.
i recommend anyone in here to watch the HuK vs QXC on Delta Quadrant from Assmbly. HuK really tricks QXC into thinking he has a way bigger force than he actually has. it's noet exactly the strategy described by minigun but it has a lot of similarity and i think it relies on the same basics.
Edit: anyone saying this is not cheese should reread the correct definitions by zatic
On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote: It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Close spawns metal is gonna be pretty rare to see a FE expand terran.
Either way I've been wondering why no races have done any similar variation of the classic fake double from bw, this is similar in a sense so its nice to see. If you get reaper scouted you could still just throw up and cancel.
On February 18 2011 00:13 shenzu88 wrote: So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
I'll disagree with you there. I tech straight to banshees straight off of a 2 Rax FE and I win ~80% of my games against Protoss that way. A bunker walloff is extremely intimidating and very tough to break if you scout the push coming ahead of time and preemptively bring SCVs to the line to repair. It's definitely a viable strategy, and I've found a delayed banshee to be more effective than a rushed one because by then, the observer is in your base and your opponent should have two bases to try and defend from harass. I can easily get 9-10 kills with my first banshee off the FE.
I'm not saying it's not possible to straight tech to Banshee. You are scouting and reacting to his play, which enables you to defend his push. Good.
Terrans should just be aware with the current trend of mass sentries, 6 gates or robo all-ins that FE can just as easily be punished, vice-versa.
Very cool, op. Not exactly something you would use every game, just a reactive strategy that's nice to have in your arsenal. Gonna try it on ladder for sure.
On February 18 2011 00:35 Slusher wrote: I have a question for the Terran players in the thread, will the fake robo tech prevent cloak reasearch? or would I still need detection in/near my mineral line.
That's interesting actually. I'm guessing it would certainly discourage cloak, but I wouldn't rely on it completely.
I have a question for the Terran players in the thread, will the fake robo tech prevent cloak reasearch? or would I still need detection in/near my mineral line.
A lot you are missing the point where he said that this build ISN'T standard. Its something to have up your sleeve in a tourny setting where you can pull it out on a Bo3 or Bo5.
On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote: It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Definitely have to agree with you here. I used to do a lot of greedy builds and rushing storm but I have been using nony's build a lot (3gate robo expo ~6mins) and safely teching to colossi and then moving from there. It is a lot more reactive in the sense you can stop all ins much more easily than you can with a 1gate fe vs certain timings. Yeah it's true that your nat kicks in in time for you to get a whole bunch of t1 gateway units but a lot of the time that is not going to cut it.
I feel this style of play, getting a quick hidden expansion propped up on the fact the terran has false information, might work from time to time but I think it's quite risky and a bit of a gimmick.
On February 18 2011 00:13 shenzu88 wrote: So many attempts to discredit Minigun, sigh. This strategy only works at a high level, where every unit seen causes a reaction by the other player.
Good scouting can find the hidden expo, but that can be said for anything in this game. If you get a SCV/reaper out of his vision and scout the entire map good for you, it's the small things like checking the entire map which makes a good player.
Any mention of FE -> Banshee is silly... 1 rax or 2 rax into FE is still very vulnerable and teching to banshee immediately would be suicide.
I'll disagree with you there. I tech straight to banshees straight off of a 2 Rax FE and I win ~80% of my games against Protoss that way. A bunker walloff is extremely intimidating and very tough to break if you scout the push coming ahead of time and preemptively bring SCVs to the line to repair. It's definitely a viable strategy, and I've found a delayed banshee to be more effective than a rushed one because by then, the observer is in your base and your opponent should have two bases to try and defend from harass. I can easily get 9-10 kills with my first banshee off the FE.
I'm not saying it's not possible to straight tech to Banshee. You are scouting and reacting to his play, which enables you to defend his push. Good.
Terrans should just be aware with the current trend of mass sentries, 6 gates or robo all-ins that FE can just as easily be punished, vice-versa.
Very true. I won't argue too much about it here since I won't want to derail the thread.
The strength of this build is deception, which allows you build an extremely powerful economy while teching. It's also unorthodox, so many players will not react appropriately or expect the followups to this. It does lose a lot of strength however if the hidden expansion is scouted and Medivacs are available. It's very hard to defend an expo across the other side of the map.
On February 18 2011 00:35 Slusher wrote: I have a question for the Terran players in the thread, will the fake robo tech prevent cloak reasearch? or would I still need detection in/near my mineral line.
It really depends on player style. Cloak is just an extremely useful spell to have researched. It will always score you a few extra kills because the Protoss simply can't have observers everywhere, so a cannon or two is usually never a bad idea. The potency behind cloak here is the ability to harass at least two (three if you scout it) mineral lines at once. Without robo tech, you simply can't deal with that unless you had the foresight to plant cannons at each base.
On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote: It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Definitely have to agree with you here. I used to do a lot of greedy builds and rushing storm but I have been using nony's build a lot (3gate robo expo ~6mins) and safely teching to colossi and then moving from there. It is a lot more reactive in the sense you can stop all ins much more easily than you can with a 1gate fe vs certain timings. Yeah it's true that your nat kicks in in time for you to get a whole bunch of t1 gateway units but a lot of the time that is not going to cut it.
I feel this style of play, getting a quick hidden expansion propped up on the fact the terran has false information, might work from time to time but I think it's quite risky and a bit of a gimmick.
Can you link me to some replays/a guide for that? It sounds interesting.
Yep I'll upload a couple as soon as I get home from work.
What would happen if you scouted terran going towards mech? Do you still do the same high templar 2 forge mass gateway unit? Seems like you might have to steer towards robo units instead. Also, I'd like to see another replay if you get one where terran does a 2 base mass MM attack, instead of just chillin all game while you get high temps and a really fast three bases.
These are the kind of build concepts and constructive thinking that are going to accelerate SC2's metagame and entertainment value!
Frankly, this game with IMSeed was so much fun to watch, the game had a life of its own, not only because the build was new, but because it was clear that Seed knew how to do this well. He faked Hyperdub out REAL hard, and I can only imagine how red his ears were after he realized they were fake.
Plays like this also keep Terran's on their toes. In a generally Terran dominated early-game these kinds of strategies are super useful! They can put your opponent on tilt from a very early point, making them second guess their builds and unit comp because, "what if that was fake??". I can't wait until more Protoss players use moves like this to really keep Terran's guessing.
I guess that is what I like about it so much, it keeps Terrans guessing in the early game. Usually a Terran can sit back, FE, mass MMM and be totally safe with bunkers and turrets. Well that is based on them knowing what the Protoss is doing. However, if Protoss players can constantly threaten then by faking one set of tech and taking the counter's counter the mind games become amazingly high level. Trying to make the snap decision as to whether that immortal was hallucinated and whether to counter 3gate robo becomes such a huge decision because, like Minigun has said, they have to defend it to be safe.
I can see this being super effective on the massive new maps like Tal'Darim and Terminus. Taking another main or nat/third on one of these maps can ensure that the Terran will have no idea what is going on unless they waste a super important early game scan. Imagine if the Terran wastes 3 scans trying to find your hidden expo? That is ~1000 minerals they wasted to find your 400 mineral expo. Pretty cost effective imo.
Can't wait to see these kinds of strats in GSL March!!
EDIT: Also, wanted to add (before someone thought I was saying that this should be standard or some bull), this should never be a "go to strategy" I would consider this something to be used during a BO5 series (bo3 is still kinda short) in order to break your opponents confidence or win streak.
Ahhhh mind games... the glorious joy of every strategy game. I'd love to try this strat, but I'm nowhere near high diamond and the guys I get to face in ladder don't react the way they should (and neither do I ). But still, great use of hallucination and a really unique, although unorthodox, build. I think you should mention that this strat should be used only if you feel confortable maintaining map control, as it is a must to make this work.
On February 18 2011 01:22 Kiarip wrote: but what kind of 3 gate robo doesn't at all engage at high level of play? =\
I dunno =/ I guess it's worth doing once in a while.
The kind that sees bunkers with SCVs ready to repair and decides that it would be suicidal to try and break it. If they don't push, they at least have map control and a larger army at that point. They'll be behind on economy, but at least they still have a fighting chance and can instead try for a proxy warpin or drop play to circumvent the defenses.
I think this is a really good mindgame strategy design to mess around with your opponents. The only problem i see is that it is possible to see the deficit in the sentries' energy and deduce it to be fake immortals if your opponent is really on the ball but i doubt he will be that alert even at really high levels most of the time, since you generally get glimpses of the army only
On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote: It seems like a huge risk given that if you don't have HT's with amulet fast enough, it'll be difficult to defend 2 fronts if they scout your hidden expo.
On the other hand, if terran players suspect a 3 gate robo (delayed expo), they usually try to push with a large number of MMM forces before they think you get to effectively utilize ur expansion for long. At this point, like a regular 1 gate expo, it might be much safer in hindsight to tech to colossi instead - unless at this timing you already have HT's with amulet.
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Definitely have to agree with you here. I used to do a lot of greedy builds and rushing storm but I have been using nony's build a lot (3gate robo expo ~6mins) and safely teching to colossi and then moving from there. It is a lot more reactive in the sense you can stop all ins much more easily than you can with a 1gate fe vs certain timings. Yeah it's true that your nat kicks in in time for you to get a whole bunch of t1 gateway units but a lot of the time that is not going to cut it.
I feel this style of play, getting a quick hidden expansion propped up on the fact the terran has false information, might work from time to time but I think it's quite risky and a bit of a gimmick.
Can you link me to some replays/a guide for that? It sounds interesting.
Yep I'll upload a couple as soon as I get home from work.
Thanks a lot. I need some PvT builds that don't die to HUGE early pushes. 1 gate is good, but I need a good small map build.
yeah i've pretty much scrapped my 1gate fe because of all the terrible maps and silly terrans who like to proxy tech labbed raxes all over the map O_O
There seems to be a very long timing window in which he just could roflstomp you because your templars arent out yet.
What i thought was weird about the replay is the terran scanned your probe train + no natural but didnt push, he shouldve known that something fishy is going on.
its risky but if your opponent is passive you get a huge advantage by ninja expoing.
Why not just take your natural at the typical time? If you've denied scouting and tricked him, it seems unlikely that he'll try to push out and kill it, but if you do a double-expand and he thinks he's got an econ advantage, he'll try a timing push against your second (T thinks first) expansion at your natural. Since you double-expanded, it'll be tough to hold this off and you'll have to cancel it (as was the case in the GSL game). If instead you'd taken your natural earlier and gotten units out without the extra expansion, you'll likely be able to defeat the push (probably with colossi) and hold your natural expo. IMO, having a live natural and no hidden expo after winning a battle is a better position than having a hidden expo and no natural after losing a battle.
I can sort of understand why Seed chose the hidden expansion in his game, as they were close positions on LT, which makes for a very quick timing attack from the Terran plus an expansion that is rather out-of-the-way and very unlikely to get scouted. But I still wonder if it would've just been safer to take his natural earlier and be better prepared for the Terran's push.
Is perhaps the idea that by sacrificing the natural you're able to tech to HT and skip colossi and the T is likely to back off because he thinks he's up an expansion? In which case, is the whole hidden expo thing just a way to buy time to skip colossus tech and go straight to HT? Seems like a lot of effort....
Of course there is a ton of effort in a build like this, it emphasizes a completely non-standard style of play that most high level Terrans probably haven't practiced against up until now.
Like you said, if they can take the nat (which really could have been prevented in Seed's game) they will back off given that they haven't scouted the hidden expo, just like Hyperdub did. This buys you enough time to get the HTs out, as well as get a ton of gates. However, don't discount the other tech paths. If you go DTs instead of HTs, you could easily get star/robo tech too and use a primarily chargelot/dt ground army with either robo or star support. Hell, this build might give you enough time to get 1 of each or 2 of one of them. This I can't say for sure as I haven't tried it yet.
It is a very cool stylistic approach to the early game of PvT, and I think that these kinds of plays (involving mind games and hidden tech/expos) generally will become more powerful as top level Protoss players learn when the best times to fake someone out is.
Even if you play standard for most of the game, you can use Halluc in the mid game to fake out your late game tech choice. For instance, you should halluc phoenix on top of collosus to force a ton more vikings then go Immortal/HT/Stalker or faking Collosus and getting Carriers (this would be a bad fake, but you get the idea [I hope])
LOL, I've used this build to great success, but have been loller'rolled by idiot who try to stim push into it anyway. Also, I have a few losses to people who scanned my army... and noticed it was hallu.
On February 18 2011 06:19 ShatterZer0 wrote: LOL, I've used this build to great success, but have been loller'rolled by idiot who try to stim push into it anyway.
well you can't play mindgames with someone who has no brain 8D
On February 17 2011 21:46 Minigun wrote:This is best for tournament play, best out of 3's best out of 5's, it's good to have one of these strats lying around.
Still doable in ladder though
Would be so cool to mix in hallucination during a best of series, and then the very next game actually go for a 3 gate robo attack into the Terran natural. That game Seed played makes me think about incorporating Hallucination and deception into games against good opponents.
On February 17 2011 21:46 Minigun wrote:This is best for tournament play, best out of 3's best out of 5's, it's good to have one of these strats lying around.
Still doable in ladder though
Would be so cool to mix in hallucination during a best of series, and then the very next game actually go for a 3 gate robo attack into the Terran natural. That game Seed played makes me think about incorporating Hallucination and deception into games against good opponents.
I've played around with it. I've hallucinated colossi, faked an engagement, then backed off, only to go templar and watch them make lots of vikings.
On February 18 2011 06:56 Minigun wrote:I've hallucinated colossi, faked an engagement, then backed off, only to go templar and watch them make lots of vikings.
I've hallucinated colossus and attacked, with them immediately just leaving the game ;P
This was on ladder a while ago, lost the replay xD
On February 18 2011 06:56 Minigun wrote:I've hallucinated colossi, faked an engagement, then backed off, only to go templar and watch them make lots of vikings.
I've hallucinated colossus and attacked, with them immediately just leaving the game ;P
This was on ladder a while ago, lost the replay xD
On February 17 2011 21:46 Minigun wrote:This is best for tournament play, best out of 3's best out of 5's, it's good to have one of these strats lying around.
Still doable in ladder though
Would be so cool to mix in hallucination during a best of series, and then the very next game actually go for a 3 gate robo attack into the Terran natural. That game Seed played makes me think about incorporating Hallucination and deception into games against good opponents.
That's the most awesome thing with deception, your oponent can't never be sure if you're going for the real thing or not (unless he has really really good scouting skills), specially in sc where information is scarce.
Hallucinated collosus are also really good when you go for blink stalkers. Not only do they give you sight of the upper ground, but also they're priority targets (for humans, not AI), which makes them perfect meatshields. And since you already have the Twilight Council, the transition to templar is a lot easier.
EDIT: I've found hallucinated collosus usefull, but be aware that I'm by no means a top level player.
This is really one of the funny and best strats since a long time. Hallucination is so underused. I try to use it more but often only to soak up viking fire. But will play around with this strat more and more now. Thx alot.
This seems to be a really good build agaisnt master terrans that now what are they doing and will react the way we spect they to do it, but i will only work if they are FE right? ill try this build in a tournament game because i think i would gain more benefit if my opponent thinks "oh! he is going 3 gate robo again!" or "he will not fool me again with those hallucinated inmortals." Nice strategy
Hallucination is 100/100 and a robo is 200/100. Seems like you might as well get that robo for an earlier observer. Is the benefit of a slightly earlier expo big enough to justify this?
On February 18 2011 05:13 Treadmill wrote: If this is done often enough, though, people will learn to look at sentry energy right? If you know what to look for it is pretty much a giveaway.
Then you bluff the other way and dump energy from a sentry (forcefields somewhere) to feign a hallu-fakerobo while doing a real 3gate robo push =p
Or you just don't bring along the Sentry/Sentries you used for Hallu when you parade your faked robo pressure in front of the Terran.
I don't think there's many players out there who will stop and think "wait, this push might be a hallucinated immortal designed to keep me defensive while he gets his hidden expansion and infrastructure up and running" rather than "Uh oh 3gate robo better pull scv's for repair", I mean you really can't risk getting run over by a real 3gate robo.
I really like seeing builds like this, lots of mind games and clever solutions to make it all work.
On February 18 2011 07:44 AndAgain wrote: Hallucination is 100/100 and a robo is 200/100. Seems like you might as well get that robo for an earlier observer. Is the benefit of a slightly earlier expo big enough to justify this?
Ehm, hallucination is meant to fake a 3 gate robo, not just to scout (although that's a nice extra).
1 Robo + 3 Immortals = 950/400 vs Hallucination + 3 sentrys = 250/400. And let's not forget that you would need those sentrys anyway
I play protoss but I see a couple tells from this build. First, when you are doing the feint attack to scare them and pull back they could scan you to catch the movement of your army which would immediately reveal the hallu. The second problem is that if i see low energy sentries before combat id be immediately suspicious. That purple bar that terrans should pay SO much attention to will be sapped by a 100 energy spell. To create enough units that a 1 gate looks like a 3 gate robo you will be practically tapped.
If this becomes popular Terrans will simply save a scan and scan your push. Of course this makes the normal 3 gate robo immortal busts even more effective by denying a mule.
Ok, so I think a lot of people are trying to poke holes, which are simply, unrealistic.
Say you are terran, you see a large force with immortals from the watchtower on LT headed to your expansion. You frantically throw down another bunker or two, make sure your units are in position, are you sitting there checking the energy on each sentry? Probably not if they are real, you are wasting precious time preparing your base for an attack.
I didn't just try this build once before posting it here, I've tried it 20 or so times, with huge success or I wouldn't even post it.
On February 18 2011 11:38 Flyingpants wrote: Say you are terren, immortals coming at you, you scan his army to know if you need to pull everything to hold, oh, it's hallucinates and a tiny force.
Most terrans use watchtowers, why would he need to scan when he saw the entire army?
Wont be making this post, all Terrans who read TL strategy forum actually be suspicious of a 3gate robo attack that doesn't follow through? Probably should have just kept this to yourself
On February 18 2011 11:47 Dommk wrote: Wont be making this post, all Terrans who read TL strategy forum actually be suspicious of a 3gate robo attack that doesn't follow through? Probably should have just kept this to yourself
Terrans will figure it out eventually. I'm hoping this promotes hallucination play, and people come up with even more uses for it.
If I 3 gate robo and don't pull through, I've already lost the game. So it doesn't really matter.
Why would you scout with a hallucinated phoenix? If you wanted to fake him into thinking you went 3 gate robo and be on guard, then to me that would be a dead giveaway.
In your replay, the Terran scans your ramp and sees a huge probe transfer with no nexus in the natural. Obviously that won't usually happen, but it just goes to show how much this build depends on getting lucky. All it takes is one scan, and scanning your army when it's half a screen outisde his base is pretty reasonable.
Also, he doesn't react at all to this obvious sign of a hidden expo, which kinda contradicts the whole "this is a good player who reacts the right way, that's the only reason I can bluff him" thing.
On February 18 2011 13:07 pirsq wrote: In your replay, the Terran scans your ramp and sees a huge probe transfer with no nexus in the natural. Obviously that won't usually happen, but it just goes to show how much this build depends on getting lucky. All it takes is one scan, and scanning your army when it's half a screen outisde his base is pretty reasonable.
Also, he doesn't react at all to this obvious sign of a hidden expo, which kinda contradicts the whole "this is a good player who reacts the right way, that's the only reason I can bluff him" thing.
You can say that with any build really.
I said I was short on replays, please read the entire thread. You think I came in here with just trying it once and said this is the best build ever only trying it once?
On February 18 2011 13:05 angra86 wrote: Why would you scout with a hallucinated phoenix? If you wanted to fake him into thinking you went 3 gate robo and be on guard, then to me that would be a dead giveaway.
It was late enough after to where it didn't matter, I need to scout for tech labs on starports.
Sounds like a really awesome strat, thanks for sharing!
I guess people will just have to scout the other bases more regularly now, especially if the map sizes are going to become standardly bigger than Blizzard's average.
However, like some people have mentioned, if they scan you, then they might have figured you out. But then again, a scan doesn't cover the whole base, so they may be scared and think you were trying to hide your tech (like many people try to do).
A floating barracks on the other hand... but this usually isn't done unless if they're going mech or if it's mid game at least. Even for mech they need the back up marines no?
flying rax because it's fast, unkillable, and worth half of a mule. I just watched some pro corean fly 3 raxes around a map in TVT. But he was going pure mech banshee.
Sorry if this was mentioned earlier, but there was so much arguing that I didn't see if the actual build was posted anywhere. I understand you 1gate FE in response to his 1rax FE, but after that then what? go up to 3 gates? what sort of unit comp should I be going for? What should I do if he scans my gates and sees no robos? or if he sees my hidden expo? I'm interested in some of the little details that your OP doesn't really give. this looks like a really neat build (especially if you just 3gate robo'd the game before in a BoX), and i'll be sure to try it out sometime.
Well, it does indeed seem quite unlikely that he will be able to somehow know that its a fake push, and not a real one. So he will throw down another bunker, and pull a couple of SCVs. Most people in this thread seem to be most concerned with the fact that its possible for terran to find out your immortals are fake, through some incredibly unlikely set of events.
My question, however, would be: What exactly is the real gain from hiding your expansion at the other end of the map? If you can deny him scouting around the map, you can also deny him scouting your natural usually.
I mean, its really cool that you are able to trick your opponents into thinking you went 3gate robo when you didnt, thats sweet. but appart from trading some sentry energy for him making a bunker, and pulling SCVs for a few seconds, what exactly does tricking him achieve here?
Like if you were using halucinations to fake having a colossus, and then showing up with templars while he got vikings a couple of minutes later, I could see how that would be good. But with the expand, wouldnt that be tricking him just because you can? I mean, when he sees you take your natural, either he will expand too, thinking he is staying ahead, but in fact staying even. Or he will attack to try and deny it, and then its still 2 bases vs 2 bases, but with him probably having a sligfhtly easier time, due to an earlier expand, and not so much mining time lost during the transfer.
To the comments about the <50 energy sentry: If you leave it at home, what is the terran gonna do then?
I didnt read every single post, but I think that no one has mentioned one of the biggest advantages this strategy has and which was so well shown in the GSTL match. Yes Terran can find a timing window in which you are trying to get your 3rd up and make a push that you in lots of cases are not able to defend. But who cares about defence? Let your natural die and FF the ramp and counter-attack. Since its still 2 base vs 2 base you are alright economy wise anyway. And when he really decides to go in for the kill, then he will lose a lot at his base, while you are save behind the FFs.
The only thing I can imagine scouting that something is up, is a floating factory. Imagine youre spawning close air or close by ground on LT. If the terran gets up a quite quick factory and scouts your base, he will most likely realize that you have an FE - although I have to admit, that it might be a failure to build a factory that early, facing a real 3 gate + Robo timing attack. Any comments on that?
Edith says: Btw, why dont terrans use floating barracks as scouts anyway? (Regardless of their builds). Taking the SCV of mining and building the barracks might cost about 180 (?), maybe 200 minerals, but its still less then a mule would mine and you often get to see way more than with one scan, especially in the early game.
I think in the OP you might want to stretch the importance that terran will not attack because seeing your 3rd base go down, and thinking it to be a failed all in natural expansion, will believe themselves to be well ahead with no reason to attack. I am curious though as to why you recommend the double forge + templar follow up over a colossus phoenix transition? If I can get a fast 3rd I have a lot of luck going colossus phoenix. And people shouldn't really be expecting terran to engage it, if he does he is completely guessing what you are doing (unlikely) or is just stupid. No good terran would get an expo and then attack into a one basing robo toss
On February 18 2011 16:17 confusedcrib wrote: I think in the OP you might want to stretch the importance that terran will not attack because seeing your 3rd base go down, and thinking it to be a failed all in natural expansion, will believe themselves to be well ahead with no reason to attack. I am curious though as to why you recommend the double forge + templar follow up over a colossus phoenix transition? If I can get a fast 3rd I have a lot of luck going colossus phoenix. And people shouldn't really be expecting terran to engage it, if he does he is completely guessing what you are doing (unlikely) or is just stupid. No good terran would get an expo and then attack into a one basing robo toss
There's a couple of reasons. First of you fake a robo build, so chances are he's getting vikings blindly. So as soon as he sees you throwing down your third (expected late first expo) he will attack you very soon. For that time you are behind economically, so if he really has some vikings out you will lose your colossi before you can get a critical mass out to stop this attack - then you retreat to your main and FF the ramp.. until what? The next colossus pops out and gets sniped? When the storm tech is done you have way better chances when he finally comes up the ramp.
Second, if the game goes on you have better chances to defend your hidden expo with templars warped in, than walking with your colossi cross the whole map. They are just not mobile enough.
Really interesting build, thanks Mini for posting.
Just the fact that during that replay, you're on his side of the map at the critical 8 - 9 minute mark, while getting that expansion established, is really impressive. At a moment when most of us toss are wondering if an all-in is coming to kill our expansion, you're over on his side, making him pull scvs to heal up his bunkers - all the while having complete map control.
The real brilliance in this build is being able to project strength at a time when you're relatively weak. This is one of the real brilliant uses of hallucination that I think is going to become more and more popular. Even if these hallucinations start being detected, always keeping the opponent on edge as to what's actually real, and how many has some pretty significant implications. I could see this transitioning really well into some later game stuff like hallucinated colossi to really sell the tech, while going templar.
Remember guys - no one is saying this build doesn't have weaknesses or counters, it's just one of many possibilities that may or may not be appropriate to do based on the current conditions. As many have said, it's just great to be able to have in the bag.
On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote: The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Yeah the build is designed for close positions on a 4-player map.
I'm not convinced that it's so impossible for a Terran to scout this effectively, if they just check your army with an scv and see no immortals then they'll probably know what's going on, or get suspicious and use a scan since the build is getting more popular after GSTL. Also if they scan your main and see no robo they might also get suspicious since robo placement is pretty consistent across the board. If they're going mech they could float a barracks and see everything you're doing as well, and it's not inconceivable that they'll scan your army at the watchtower. Terrans do that fairly regularly if they weren't sure of your composition or strength of your army. And then of course you still can be hiding a hidden-expo scouting scv which players are doing a lot more these days even if they wouldn't suspect you're doing this strat.
I'm glad it's finally getting some positive feedback. It's frustrating when people come in and see and see a new strat, and try and poke flaws in it. Guess what, every strat has flaws, every, single, one.
I used this strat at the tip top of the ladder, on NA and the korean server. I've lost once, out of twenty or so games, trying it. Every single terran has reacted.
On February 18 2011 01:22 Kiarip wrote: but what kind of 3 gate robo doesn't at all engage at high level of play? =\
I dunno =/ I guess it's worth doing once in a while.
The kind that sees bunkers with SCVs ready to repair and decides that it would be suicidal to try and break it. If they don't push, they at least have map control and a larger army at that point. They'll be behind on economy, but at least they still have a fighting chance and can instead try for a proxy warpin or drop play to circumvent the defenses.
You would usually at least force him to actually try to repair the bunkers as long as you have the forcefields to retreat neatly, I think that a 3 gate robo that actually makes the immortal, but then doesn't even try to engage against an expo that fast seems rather fishy.
edit: I do think that the build is really nice though. It's not something I would practice unless I had to play some important series though, would be frustrating to lose to dumb shit =/
Looks really cool, and of course I love the idea of fe'ing myself. I never thought of using halluc to pull it off like that. I will totally be trying this out once I'm done getting 500 Team Protoss wins. Mohander and a new decal will take presidence.
On February 19 2011 01:25 Minigun wrote: I'm glad it's finally getting some positive feedback. It's frustrating when people come in and see and see a new strat, and try and poke flaws in it. Guess what, every strat has flaws, every, single, one.
I used this strat at the tip top of the ladder, on NA and the korean server. I've lost once, out of twenty or so games, trying it. Every single terran has reacted.
You shouldn't be so emotionally attached to strats, plus this one wasn't created by you so I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about it. If people are pointing out issues with a strategy, and their concerns are actually valid or well thought-out you should be grateful because a strategy doesn't improve by everyone gushing love on it. You can't really pin it's success on how it performs in ladder. Even on KR ladder, when you're playing bo1 against people you aren't familiar with, cheeses and plays like this are always much more effective, especially when they're expecting to be cheesed as most players do.
The strat revolves around denying information of your trickery to the Terran, if they see through you then you'll be undone. Unfortunately there isn't any way to totally deny information to a Terran, there's just too many ways they can scout you. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, even if it's somewhat luck-based it can still be a great strategy to pull out in a bo3 or bo5 to catch your opponent off-guard, exactly how it was used when the strat was introduced by IMSeed in the GSTL. But like all strats that revolve around trickery, as it becomes more popular players learn to read its tells and it becomes less effective. Especially this one, I think, because it's only used in such specific circumstances.
On February 19 2011 01:25 Minigun wrote: I'm glad it's finally getting some positive feedback. It's frustrating when people come in and see and see a new strat, and try and poke flaws in it. Guess what, every strat has flaws, every, single, one.
I used this strat at the tip top of the ladder, on NA and the korean server. I've lost once, out of twenty or so games, trying it. Every single terran has reacted.
You shouldn't be so emotionally attached to strats, plus this one wasn't created by you so I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about it. If people are pointing out issues with a strategy, and their concerns are actually valid or well thought-out you should be grateful because a strategy doesn't improve by everyone gushing love on it. You can't really pin it's success on how it performs in ladder. Even on KR ladder, when you're playing bo1 against people you aren't familiar with, cheeses and plays like this are always much more effective, especially when they're expecting to be cheesed as most players do.
The strat revolves around denying information of your trickery to the Terran, if they see through you then you'll be undone. Unfortunately there isn't any way to totally deny information to a Terran, there's just too many ways they can scout you. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, even if it's somewhat luck-based it can still be a great strategy to pull out in a bo3 or bo5 to catch your opponent off-guard, exactly how it was used when the strat was introduced by IMSeed in the GSTL. But like all strats that revolve around trickery, as it becomes more popular players learn to read its tells and it becomes less effective. Especially this one, I think, because it's only used in such specific circumstances.
I'm not attached to it at all, I just like strats to have a fair chance, before they are bashed.
Every strat has flaws, just about every strat has a counter if scouted, no?
People are pointing out such obvious things.
-What if it gets scouted?
deny scouting obviously
-What if he scans the probe transfer?
well if scans your dark shrine you are screwed as well, pick a good time to do it.
etc etc etc
I mean I kind of know why top players don't bother posting here.
Ah, I love creative hallucination play. I haven't seen the replay yet, but I just watched IMSeed vs oGsHyperdub because of this thread. Really cool. I am nowhere near the level to utilize this strat, but it is very entertaining seeing unorthodox play at higher level. Mind games at its best
Does anyone have more replays? I'm looking to make this a standard strat when I ladder.
My main concern is not getting killed by immediate Medivac drop reactions when he finds out he's been had. Without Storm+Amulet it is so hard to defend against drops at far-away bases.
Interesting build, thanks for posting. I can definitely see this being great in tense even skill matchups. I like how the hallucination play makes it affordable. I guess you might be tempted to hallu some phoenix to scout at some point, but does that tip off this strategy too much? If you get enough of an economic advantage I suppose you can just build a robo for observers anyway around the time you want to scout, right?
How do you deny scouting? Can you even with this build, without tipping them off that you're up to some shenanigans?
Every strat has a counter, sure, but the solid builds are the ones that don't depend on secrecy or trickery, where you aren't rolling dice hoping that he's not going to attack you otherwise you lose, and where even if there is a 'counter' to it, you aren't going to lose or be at a huge disadvantage just because he saw your comp and knew what comp to go. Colossus off 2 base for instance, he can make vikings yes, but you aren't at a disadvantage just because he knew you were going colossus and was able to prepare, it's more that you'd be at an advantage if he didn't see, and then it would be neutral if he did. Which of course you know, I'm just illustrating my point.
I never said the build was bad, we saw how sick it was in the gstl, all I did was say the only problem with the build was that if you got scouted you're in a lot of trouble, but you just kept saying that it's impossible for them to scout you. I thought up some ways I thought they could do it, but you didn't respond to that :s
On February 19 2011 17:15 Feverus wrote: How *should* the Terran react?
lol. No matter your race, intel is key. I always try to scout/scan when I can for sneaky expos/proxies/hidden tech/changing army positions/etc
It's what wins/loses you the game.
But yes, in this case, almost all Terrans would be too set in their training of reacting defensively against potential heavy aggression, and accepting what they see, because only a fair few ever see hallucination in use, and never for projecting armies (usually only for phoenix scouting).
I love that the hallucination tech forces them to react in-base to a robo build too. From there, templar tech would be an unexpected twist (they'd probably think your next logical step is a colossi heavy army).
the fact this was posted by mini means it's a damn solid build. Protoss can own Terran once you get to late game. It does seem like there would be a timing, like most 1 gate FE builds, where they can kill you if your sentry micro is not perfect. I love the idea of feinting robo tech with hallucinate though. I think hallu needs more play
Thanks Mini for sharing this, yo. I love hallucination play, when i was like low Diamond I always incorporated some for the lols (on my stream etc.). I kinda steered away from it because I tried to focus on getting more solid, but I might throw some in again here and there. Will try the build when I have arrived in Masters, which should happen soon, at least i hope :D
This seems like an interesting build, especially one to run in a BO3 or better a BO5 set, where you can do a 3gate robo play in the series. My only concern is, as other people brought up, builds that rely on being tricky aren't so great, especially when this build becomes more common. Terran players are going to pick up subtle ways to get tipped off that you're faking it(sentry energy, unit comp on first push ect). I'm going to have some fun with this build while I still can though
Thanks for sharing, I am definitely gonna try this. Just ignore these naysayers, they feel like if they criticize a better player it proves they are good players!
Builds like this are supercool but I have to say that they have their flaws aswell. First of all your talking about denying scouting, I don't know if this is only in the particular game you linked to in your OP but he has full map control while your nexus is building. That is a perfect opportunity for him to hide scouts/just scout and find your nexus. (And at this point you can't really deny him scouting it either, you have 1 stalker and 2 sentries vs 4 marauders and 1 marine). So if the player your playing against is aware of this build he might be scouting at this time/hiding scouts and that would put you in a awkard position.
I also feel like there's a strong timing for the terran when you put down your third nexus and start teching charge/double forge/high templar etc. Then again there's no incentive for the terran to attack at that point unless he scouted your nexus. He thinks you failed a 3-gate robo attack and wants to milk his expansion as much as he can. Attacking before he has had a considerable economic benefit from his expand makes no sense unless he senses that something is up.
If you manage to fool the terran then sure, this is a great build. And tbh most terrans would probably get fooled by this if they have never seen it before. Really cool strategy but also a one-time only vs the same player imo. Will be sure to try this strategy out on ladder, thanks for sharing!
On February 19 2011 01:25 Minigun wrote: I'm glad it's finally getting some positive feedback. It's frustrating when people come in and see and see a new strat, and try and poke flaws in it. Guess what, every strat has flaws, every, single, one.
I used this strat at the tip top of the ladder, on NA and the korean server. I've lost once, out of twenty or so games, trying it. Every single terran has reacted.
You shouldn't be so emotionally attached to strats, plus this one wasn't created by you so I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about it. If people are pointing out issues with a strategy, and their concerns are actually valid or well thought-out you should be grateful because a strategy doesn't improve by everyone gushing love on it. You can't really pin it's success on how it performs in ladder. Even on KR ladder, when you're playing bo1 against people you aren't familiar with, cheeses and plays like this are always much more effective, especially when they're expecting to be cheesed as most players do.
The strat revolves around denying information of your trickery to the Terran, if they see through you then you'll be undone. Unfortunately there isn't any way to totally deny information to a Terran, there's just too many ways they can scout you. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, even if it's somewhat luck-based it can still be a great strategy to pull out in a bo3 or bo5 to catch your opponent off-guard, exactly how it was used when the strat was introduced by IMSeed in the GSTL. But like all strats that revolve around trickery, as it becomes more popular players learn to read its tells and it becomes less effective. Especially this one, I think, because it's only used in such specific circumstances.
I'm not attached to it at all, I just like strats to have a fair chance, before they are bashed.
Every strat has flaws, just about every strat has a counter if scouted, no?
People are pointing out such obvious things.
-What if it gets scouted?
deny scouting obviously
-What if he scans the probe transfer?
well if scans your dark shrine you are screwed as well, pick a good time to do it.
etc etc etc
I mean I kind of know why top players don't bother posting here.
Aw, Mini, dont get that mentality! I love reading about these new strategies, especially coming from high profile players such as yourself. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
imo, its definitely a clever strat. I love hearing new things to try out (even though I can rarely pull them off very well...) Gonna try it out after I'm done with midterms this week =P
I've had tremendous success with this build, and I really enjoy employing it on LT like seed did. There's plenty of space in your main to hide your structures, it's easy to deny scouting of your natural short of scans, and the watchtowers are such focal points that it's easy to convey your fake poke to your opponent.
Yesterday I used it in mid-master with great results; he had 7 scvs pulled for around 1 minute, and I was able to take another main as a 3rd really quickly. Because of the economic advantages of this open, I actually had the resources to respond to mech with carriers in a timely manner, which felt awesome ^_^.
I hope i don't get warned for bringing this thread back after 2 months, but since its one of those recommended threads every toss should read I assume it will be ok.
I first want to tip my cap to Minigun for coming up with this build. Its thought out and very solid against FE Terrans. A lot of people are trying to poke holes in it and find weaknesses. But like Minigun said it is very viable under the conditions he suggested. First off, many Terran's don't scout the 3rd or 4th bases for hidden expos and they definitely don't waste a mule on (via scanings) all of the expos.
Also like he said this is an advanced strat not because its difficult to pull off tactically but because you are relying on the Terran to be intelligent. There is a huge Meta game that goes on between players at the highest skill level. They know exactly what the other race is capable of. This build feeds Terran false information through hallucination to lead them to another conclusion. When Terran doesn't see the natural expo go down he will assume 1 base play by toss. Yes he might scout with an SCV for hidden expos at this point but you have map control, you should deny all scouting. Thus making him conclude even more that you are 1 basing.
Terran will not scan anywhere but your ramp for army composition or possibly your main for tech information. That is why you hide your tech (or lack there of) in an uncommon location.
In addition, I have a replay to post. It was in customs Xel'Naga but the match was a Master level game so there is something to take away from it. However with that being said, my replay is not identical to Minigun's post.
First my expo was not hidden and I did not 1 gate FE, but my opponent did 1 Rax FE. I tried to 3 gate contain into an expo which failed miserably. I was practicing the strat in customs before using it on ladder. However I was far from dead (just that my contain was poorly executed). I decided to expand immediately then made a 4th gate and got hallucination. I was thinking that I could hallucinate a larger army to make my attack more threatening.
When the battle started I hallucinated 3 Immortals and "surprising" continued to stomp his army. He pulled SCV's as well, and this is with fake Immortals. Granted I caught him with his pants down because a moment before he salvaged his bunker but stim also finished at that time so he felt the threat was over.
Also I will be the first to say he microed his units poorly initially. (Basically walked right into my Zealots)
This goes to show how weak 1 Rax FE really is. Mini you can include it in the original post if you want or not. I'm just throwing it out there.
P.S the ideal composition is Zealots/Sentries/(4-5 Stalkers max) and then hallucinate the approximate number of immortals you think is viable by that point. He might get suspicious if you have too much gas in your army comp so be wary of making too many sentries/stalkers.
Also I stayed in game for a while after. This is how I practice my macro and so I can smooth out my mechanics/game plan assuming the match hadn't ended.
i am doing something similar in PvZ with faking some colossus beside 1-2 real ones and go mass upgraded Blink Stalker, gives you an edge if your opponent does make to much corrupter and isn't scouting properly.
LOL i just watched this replay very thoroughly, from both playercams, multiple times... i'd just like to make a few comments.
As a protoss myself, this was SO AWESOME to see. You 100% completely manipulated the situation, and took massive advantage from it. This displays amazingly creative use of Hallucination, which itself is something that is still VERY underused. This proves that there is some innovative strategies involving Hallucination that have yet to be seen.
Also, I just want to say to anyone that wants to know what drove me to come write this post and thank Minigun so heavily... At the VERY end of the game, RIGHT before the end of the match... trying to picture the look on that terran's face IRL when he scanned and saw the ninja expo with such production / economy, is absolutely priceless. His actions throughout the entire game (from the playercam) make it clear that he thought he was so far ahead...
10/10. I'm going to ladder to try this now. (obviously I know it's a situational build... hopefully I can create the ideal situation )
I am a zerg player so perhaps I have no place contributing. But as far as I can see the only weak point is if the terran tries to drop your main and flies over your expo ( which isn't that improbable imo, terrans are dropping every game I play against them, and I figure they do the same to protoss ).
Is this a case where the strategy could fail? If your spread out on 3 base quickly you wont really be able to defend if he does scout it.
cool and viable build and idea, only effective way to scout it is if the terran has enough intelligence to scan your cybercore and see if its researching after warpgates are done
On February 17 2011 20:15 Dommk wrote: What if they remain completely oblivious and do a stim timing attack? Do you think you would be able to hold it off?
The first rule of bluffing is to never bluff an idiot.
On April 16 2011 18:11 Jinsho wrote: If this won't work against a Platinum player "because he's too dumb to react properly", it's not a strategy.
A "strategy" that relies on the other person to make a mistake is not a strategy. It's cheese by definition.
This is metagaming, cheese, playing the player, mindgames, call it as you will.
That is just great. Throwing in a bunch of terms and dismissing this build as bad with no basis for discussion. 3 of those terms basically mean the same thing and remember that it worked in the GSTL. This build relies on giving away wrong tells. Of course this build bears a high risk but you get a high reward if you do it correctly and pull it off. Personally I'd ban your ass just for your ignorance.
So if you truly think this is cheese then you are going to be delighted to hear about the adjustments I would do to play this build. I'd get a lot more sentries for 2 reasons: to get the 4th gate earlier for safety & being able to hallucinate more and whatever you want. This is important because you need to hide the sentries in case players start to pay more attention to sentry energy levels. So you don't bring the sentries because you do not want to show that you would be able to do hallucination play and more importantly having a lot of sentries means you are spending your minerals elsewhere i.e. on a Nexus. Then you need to make sure hallucinated units never shoot. At all. In Miniguns replay the hallucinated immortal shoots at a scv and if his opponent had noticed this it would be a much different game.
It's unfortunate that there is only 1 (2) replay(s) but I think it certainly is viable as long as you're cautious enough to not screw up and aggressive enough that your opponent really believes you are going to attack him. So no this is certainly no strategy that would ever work in platinum league because not knowing what the proper response is is not a mistake it's lacking gameplay knowledge.
I don't see this opening working that well to be honest.. why would a terran have 2+ bunkers up without any signs of immortal until the fact? Sure, he may assume you're cheesing but I'm pretty sure every terran that doesn't see an expo before 6:00 assumes that.
Now you would say something like, well yes.. I want him to think that. True enough, but 9/10 terrans (including myself 4k last season) will have a turret with their bunkers if they have no scouting information except a lack of expansion as they have to prepare for both voidray and DT.
I am also curious when you push? If you're pushing at the same time a regular 3gate robo is with a similar amount of illusioned units, then your DT's are going to be late (or at least I would assume).
This is interesting though... if the Terran doesn't turret based on the absence of scouting information I would consider that a grave mistake.. especially if hes expanding. Heck, if you're fighting a guy with no turrets at 7:00 + you might as well have just gone DT to begin with.. but that's only my opinion lol
This strat is like a triple head fake.. you went for one too many and faked yourself out.
Why are you guys bashing his build so much. Minigun is obviously top top tier, and if it works for him on the korean ladder, OBVIOUSLY it's quite effective against high level opponents. If anything, him posting his build here for us is gonna make it less effective. But I digress, this build relies on denial of scouting and intelligent use of "fake pressure." Obviously, who doesn't pull scvs when getting hit by a 3 gate robo *facepalm*. The point of this build is to take a massive economic advantage, whilst keeping terran on their toes. Gratz to Minigun for posting this build for us.
On April 16 2011 21:14 Synapze wrote: I don't see this opening working that well to be honest.. why would a terran have 2+ bunkers up without any signs of immortal until the fact? Sure, he may assume you're cheesing but I'm pretty sure every terran that doesn't see an expo before 6:00 assumes that.
Now you would say something like, well yes.. I want him to think that. True enough, but 9/10 terrans (including myself 4k last season) will have a turret with their bunkers if they have no scouting information except a lack of expansion as they have to prepare for both voidray and DT.
I am also curious when you push? If you're pushing at the same time a regular 3gate robo is with a similar amount of illusioned units, then your DT's are going to be late (or at least I would assume).
This is interesting though... if the Terran doesn't turret based on the absence of scouting information I would consider that a grave mistake.. especially if hes expanding. Heck, if you're fighting a guy with no turrets at 7:00 + you might as well have just gone DT to begin with.. but that's only my opinion lol
This strat is like a triple head fake.. you went for one too many and faked yourself out.
Um, if a terran sees a lot of sentries/stalkers for hallucination, why the hell would you assume stargate or dark templars?
If you put a turret based on a FAILED assumption (because you don't know how to analyze army compositions), then you BLINDLY countered it.
Congrats.
Anyways, NO good terran will assume DT's and void rays off of a medium sized stalker/sentry army.
On April 16 2011 18:11 Jinsho wrote: If this won't work against a Platinum player "because he's too dumb to react properly", it's not a strategy.
A "strategy" that relies on the other person to make a mistake is not a strategy. It's cheese by definition.
This is metagaming, cheese, playing the player, mindgames, call it as you will.
That is just great. Throwing in a bunch of terms and dismissing this build as bad with no basis for discussion. 3 of those terms basically mean the same thing and remember that it worked in the GSTL. This build relies on giving away wrong tells. Of course this build bears a high risk but you get a high reward if you do it correctly and pull it off. Personally I'd ban your ass just for your ignorance.
So if you truly think this is cheese then you are going to be delighted to hear about the adjustments I would do to play this build. I'd get a lot more sentries for 2 reasons: to get the 4th gate earlier for safety & being able to hallucinate more and whatever you want. This is important because you need to hide the sentries in case players start to pay more attention to sentry energy levels. So you don't bring the sentries because you do not want to show that you would be able to do hallucination play and more importantly having a lot of sentries means you are spending your minerals elsewhere i.e. on a Nexus. Then you need to make sure hallucinated units never shoot. At all. In Miniguns replay the hallucinated immortal shoots at a scv and if his opponent had noticed this it would be a much different game.
It's unfortunate that there is only 1 (2) replay(s) but I think it certainly is viable as long as you're cautious enough to not screw up and aggressive enough that your opponent really believes you are going to attack him. So no this is certainly no strategy that would ever work in platinum league because not knowing what the proper response is is not a mistake it's lacking gameplay knowledge.
Hey, the guy that Ravo quoted. Oh, it seems that everything's cheese now. Cheese is not a strategy that is based upon a opponent's mistake.
You might as well call everything cheese.
It's mindgames, metagame, and deception, NOT cheese.
Is starcraft 2 ONLY about micro and macro? Is it ONLY about build orders? No, sir, if it is, I should stop playing.
You're giving the person FALSE information so you can ABUSE it. So, you think it's fun to play someone who knows EVERY single tech, army, and eco about you? If you're feeding info to your opponent, you sir, are bad.
On April 17 2011 12:05 `ChroMaTe_ wrote: Is the efficiency of HT's slightly decreased due to no Amulet?
The "efficiency" isn't decreased. Warp-in storms were nerfed to the ground though, so you can't abuse it anymore. Storm is still powerful, but you need preparation and time because the other combat spell-casters still have their upgrades.
Basically, the thing powerful about HT's was warp-gates + instant storm.
I'm sorry about my above post. I meant to say that is transitioning after the fake push into high templar still as good? Or would a Stargate or other tech be more suitable? THAT'S what I meant to say.
EPT
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