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Zurich15358 Posts
In this topic I will try to provide general definitions to what “cheese” and “all-in” strategies are.
Both terms are regularly used on this forum, and most of the time are being misused.
“Cheese” is probably the worst of the two in terms of how people use it. You see people referring to any kind of rush as cheese. Then you see people complaining fast tech is cheese. You see people just crying cheese because they lost against a strategy they haven’t seen before.
All-in is misused often enough as well. People think it’s the same as cheese. Or they call simply aggressive styles or timing attacks “allin”.
So, let’s have a look at my own definitions:
Cheese
A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game.
All-In
An aggressive strategy aimed at killing the opponent off completely in one attack. All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. Should the attack fail and the opponent live through it, the game is almost certainly lost to a counter or to superior enemy tech/economy.
A couple of examples:
1. Proxy BBS: Cheese and all-In. If scouted in time can be defended. The proxy character means it can’t live a counter attack. The rush has to succeed, or the game is lost, making it an all in attack.
2. 2gate: Neither cheese nor all-in. A 2gate can be scouted and still put pressure on the opponent. It can do just moderate damage and the executing player can still transition out of it.
3. 14cc: Cheese. The game is almost certainly lost if this is scouted early.
4. No lair roach against Z who techs to muta: All-in. The roaches have to win the game, or else the muta will finish the roach player off once your attack is repelled.
5. Fast banshee/void ray/muta: Neither cheese nor all-in. The strategy will almost certainly fail if scouted in time, but it won’t automatically lose the game.
6. Fast reaper (9rax inbase): Neither cheese nor all in. Fails if scouted, sets T back if it fails but doesn’t outright lose the game.
7. Fast reaper (6rax proxy): Cheese and all-in. Fails to kill the opponent if scouted, loses the game if it doesn’t do enough damage to equalize the cut SCV (all-in).
8. 4 gate robo (against 1 base): Neither cheese nor all in
9. 4 gate robo (against expo): Arguably all-in. At some point the expanding player will have the stronger army and the stronger economy – attack has to be effective before.
10. Turtle and tech to guardian / carrier / doom drop / other strong late game strategy: All-in. The late attack has to kill the opponent off or no follow up possible due to build time / resources.
11. 6pool: All-In. Arguably cheese as well, as it is way less effective if scouted early. However the main characteristics of the 6pool is not secrecy but the early attack and the lack of follow up.
As you can see the distinction isn’t always clear, and often enough it’s hard to determine if an attack is all in or not. Also, as with everything in Starcraft those examples don’t have to play out exactly like described. Of course a proxy BBS can be scouted, fail, but against the odds do just enough damage that both players are even afterwards.
Still, in a nutshell:
Cheese – must not be scouted.
All-in – does not have a follow up.
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On May 05 2010 20:07 zatic wrote:
4. No lair roach against Z who techs to muta: All-in. The roaches have to win the game, or else the muta will finish the roach player off once your attack is repelled.
I tend to disagree here. The lair can be started right as you move out, and Queens + Spores fend off a lot of mutas. If you time your attack correctly, it is guaranteed to hurt your opponent's economy, either by killing drones or by forcing a lot of defense (and additionally delaying the mutas).
Apart from that, I agree with pretty much everything, especially the definitions themselves are good.
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I'm surprised that 2 gate proxy and 6 pool aren't on this list. Either way... nice clarification.
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Zurich15358 Posts
Yes and as I tried to explain with the reaper and 4gate examples you can construct versions for every single of those examples where the definitions don't apply anymore. The examples are just there to illustrate the differences between cheese, allin, and "normal" play.
If you have a better example please suggest.
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I don't think cheese/all-in's have to mean for you to loose the game if they fail to fit the definition.
IMHO, if something set's you back by a certain extent if scouted or if it depends on the enemy doing/not doing something, it can be called "cheese".
Also, All-in's don't have to cost you the game almost immediately after the failed push, but it will put you at a certain disadvantage, that will cost you the game in the long run against an equally skilled player who played a macro-game and defended the push.
I also consider VR's and early Banshees cheese, because you heavily depend on those Units doing Damage and your whole strategy depends on what your opponent is doing - whether he scouts or not, whether he plays safe with turrets or has other anti-air etc.
This is also because of the crappy Unit-control of SC2 - you depend more on killing off the enemy with one sweep cuz he does not have enough anti-air, whereas in SCBW, you could still harrass and not immediately die to a counterattack after your 2-starport-wraith got scouted and did not destroy the enemy. Now try to do sth useful with VR's or Banshees if the enemy is prepared against them. Try to outmicro Marines+Vikings with VR's or keep harrassing with them when the player has enough Turrets/Cannons. Also, they are not as good in a straight-up fight, which is a much bigger deal than in SCBW, because SC2 depends much more on big army-vs-army-fights, in which even a small number of Units that don't do terrible, terrible DMG will cost you the battle.
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Anything that the other player does ever.
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Zurich15358 Posts
On May 05 2010 20:27 DamageInq wrote:
I'm surprised that 2 gate proxy and 6 pool aren't on this list. Either way... nice clarification.
Added 6pool. For 2gate vs 2gate proxy see the reaper example.
Edit: generally don't focus on examples though. The important part are the defining characteristics: Cheese - secrecy; All-in - no followup
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Very good topic. As a cheese and all in I'd add 1 gate assimilator (feign) into 2 gate proxy.
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First time poster here. I was wondering what you consider the following to be (had it done to me once and I didn't adapt well enough). I personally thought it was cheese (but I saw it all the way) - so by that definition it wasn't.
Playing Z(me)vP - he comes in my base and puts 2 assimilators, makes a forge+gateway+canon behind wall, and then techs to void rays. I allowed the assimilators to finish and killed them with my lings. But that put me late enough on my lair/hydras that I died to his zealot/void raid army.
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I'd call that .. a clever move coupled with inexperience from your side?
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Great post to clarify it. Lets just hope ppl are gonna read it and take it to heart ^^
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Would have to disagree on a couple of those
Number 8 would have to be all-in, if you're attack fails your economy is so bad that it just almost impossible to get back up
good read though~~
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On May 05 2010 23:03 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
Would have to disagree on a couple of those
Number 8 would have to be all-in, if you're attack fails your economy is so bad that it just almost impossible to get back up
good read though~~
your opponents also on 1 base tho
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This has confirmed that almost everything in copper is a 'gimmick' which is generally cheese. I'm curious what chargelot against stalker one base vs two base is on pvp. Arguably all in, because they are on an expo, you aren't, and they have stalkers if you fail...
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Thanks, it's pretty frustrating how often these keep getting thrown around improperly. Sadly this OP will likely have to be reposted every other week or so as people forget. 
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You people all have it wrong..
Cheese is defined as the following.
If you are Protoss, anything that Zerg or Terran does that causes you to lose is cheese.
If you are Terran, anything that Zerg or Protoss does that causes you to lose is cheese.
If you are Zerg anything that Terran or protoss does that causes you to lose is cheese.
Sheesh people, get it right. :D
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Awesome post :D
Now do one for the defintion of "push"
I see that one severely misused on the strategy forum. People call any attack a push, when it's only a specific type of attack.
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Isn't baneling bust vs Terran cheese aswell? Nice post 
and: guardian = broodlord right?
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On May 05 2010 23:06 faction123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 23:03 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
Would have to disagree on a couple of those
Number 8 would have to be all-in, if you're attack fails your economy is so bad that it just almost impossible to get back up
good read though~~ your opponents also on 1 base tho
yes doing a better econmonic build so the longer you stay on that tech the better/stronger he gets
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/zatic/allincheese.jpg)
