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The word cheese applies to everything a Protoss builds (havent seen a single fast nexus lately because why would you trade early aggression with decent economy against good econ without agression?). The word All-in applies pretty much to nothing a protoss builds (except cannonrush maybe) because since automining is in starcraft 2 the early agression wont cut into your ability to macro as hard as it would be in broodwar and that applies to every race but Zerg (limitations on drones when you chose early agression).
What I want to say is that even a 3gate will have a decent economy if you delay the opponent.... which is not hard to pull off. In other words: Starcraft 2 is a cheesy shithole as long as you dont get rid of automining or make the maps even larger so a proxy has to be timed a lot better. Right now every idiot can pull off a 2gate into voidray or reaper into banshee or whatever, without a proper malus.
The words all-in and cheese are outdated because except cannonrush and 6pool there is no all-in (hell, even bunkers can be sold). Cheese is inflationary because you can call so many strategies cheese now, technically you can say you lost to cheese 90% of the games.
That may sound whiny but it is the ugly truth -.-
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On May 05 2010 21:39 Infiltrator wrote:
Very good topic. As a cheese and all in I'd add 1 gate assimilator (feign) into 2 gate proxy.
I like doing this against P's that go 1gate tech and dont wall in.
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The first one comes pretty close to my understanding of the term. I feel like a cheese strategy entails something unconventional, something non-standard, or some use of units or features of the game in a way that wasn't intended. Something that breaks the standard order of early, mid- and late game and their association with certain unit types. In this sense, I find an SCV all-in cheesy, and I also find it cheesy when the first move an opponent makes is plastering my base with photon cannons.
(Note that I don't imply that anything unconventional is cheese, nor that all cheese is all-in, nor that all all-in is cheese.)
The definitions given in the OP no doubt make sense and provide a clear difference, which is good, but I think you also have to take into account how a term is actually used and to accomodate that use in your definition, as long as you cannot prove it "wrong" in some straightforward way. And the kind of play I described above warrants its own term. "Cheese" seems to fit.
But if this is about people on bnet who cry "cheese" every time they lose to something they didn't expect then and there (or simply every time they lose), then I don't know why it's even necessary to put up this discussion. There obviously is a lot of "cheese" crying where there is no cheese. But that's just like saying that reapers are "gay" or that a bunch of marauders killing you are "lame". There is no meaning to that other than that some kid is angry, and thus no need for an argument.
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Most of you need a healthy dose of http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=221148
See past the fact that it's aimed at Street Fighter and understand that it applies to SC as well. Everyone who wants to be good at games should read it, really.
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I remember Starcraft from back before it was even Brood War. Back when Spawning Pools only cost 150 minerals, and comsat 75 energy, and the larva spawn rate was ridiculous. According to liquipedia, the word cheese stems from the koreans shortening cheater to cheese. The word cheese is thrown around far too often. I've heard that DT rushes are cheese which is ludicrous.
Cheese does NOT have to refer to the build being unscoutable, but rather it being overwhelmingly powerful to the point of inability of the victim to do anything to defeat it with both current knowledge and anything that could have been scouted.. 4 or 6 pooling in SC 1.00 was almost beyond defeating. Marines combined with enough SCV's were completely unbeatable early enough in the game due to range; regardless of the scouting, you simply could not kill the units.
However, as the game goes past the opening, you should be scouting somehow, even with you opponent denying it. If you don't see something coming after the 3 minute mark, it's probably not cheese, Anything that takes to long to execute cannot be cheese, because it can be scouted. DT's or any other tier 3 is not cheese, early aggression is not cheese; the word is way too overused.
There is supposed to be some local imbalance in the game (not the bad kind, the kind that makes the races different). A lot of builds rely on local imbalances to add to their strength, though they aren't cheese. Tanks outrange every unit in the game, but people don't call tanks cheese, that's just a good imbalance. The problem with using the word cheese, is that you play down the opponent using it instead of thinking of how to defend it. It's almost always an excuse for poor scouting, or being too greedy.
Cheese is only a problem in the first 2-3 minutes, just learn to deal with it and defend, use your scouting worker to check around more than just his base, put out spotters or build up forces if you think it's coming. Don't use it as an excuse, just play the game better. Cheese is a BS word that is thrown around, but it is in the game, so you have to put up and deal with it.
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With the advent of several guides/threads with cheese in the title and lots of discussion, this thread needs a healthy bump.
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EPT
