EPTCheese
All-in
Standard Gameplay
20/20/60?
Definitions: Cheese and All-In - Page 3
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ThreeSixDrew
Canada183 Posts
Cheese All-in Standard Gameplay 20/20/60? | ||
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Spidermonkey
United States251 Posts
I hear people refer to every attack as a "timing" attack. I believe it is possible to attack without it being based purely on a timing counter. With Expands, after a certain point, it ceases to be a FE and just and Expand. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Any Plat player that wants to win has to learn how the manipulate and exploit the tug-of-war of a standard game. Although you sometimes still get 6-Pooled by some dumbass. The tactics Plat players employ in the early game are often more conservative versions of all-in strats, where they sacrifice surprise and speed of the attack for one that will more reliably do some damage, but they always have a follow-through plan, knowing full-well that their attack isn't going to cripple their opponent, just make his life harder. For instance, I have yet to be hit by the 'super fast' Reaper (6 Rax), but the 'moderately fast' Reaper (9+ Rax) is very, very common. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
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Quiteconfuzd
Norway23 Posts
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
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crate
United States2474 Posts
On May 06 2010 02:03 ploy wrote: I've never really understood the value behind having a well defined 'cheese' and 'all-in' term. To me, the two terms add nothing to any starcraft discussion. If they're not well-defined they have no value (see also: metagame; note here the important thing is not if there is a proper definition, but what the community perceives as the definition). If they are well-defined they can be used to concisely express an idea and there is value in that. However I very much doubt that we'll see standardized usage of at least "cheese" so it'll remain mostly meaningless. | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
On May 06 2010 01:41 ThreeSixDrew wrote: Just curious, to what extent at the platinum level do you think you see the following: Cheese All-in Standard Gameplay 20/20/60? beyond 1400 elo plat, it's like 80% standard. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 06 2010 01:41 ThreeSixDrew wrote: Just curious, to what extent at the platinum level do you think you see the following: Cheese All-in Standard Gameplay 20/20/60? Uh.. all-in is still quite popular. On May 06 2010 02:24 zomgzergrush wrote: beyond 1400 elo plat, it's like 80% standard. Not by a long shot. | ||
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renshank
United States41 Posts
A note about people calling something "cheese" if they lose to it... Doesn't that mean that you just didn't scout well enough? I think that even at high levels of play, one should not be able to take such things as your opponents generally not cheesing for granted, as this just lets you be lax in scouting. This also seems to be the reason why cheese works at low levels of play. People don't scout, or scout terribly. One thing I'm still wondering after reading this thread is the following: If you make it so that it is virtually impossible for your opponent to scout something, is it still considered cheese, even though the likelihood of it being scouted is approaching or possibly actually zero? While this still fits the definition of "IF scouted THEN horribly screwed up", I don't think it'd actually be cheese, because there is no actual possibility of it being scouted. Moving on to the (obviously related) discussion of All-ins and the overuse of that. I believe I heard someone use the phrase "a series of all-ins" the other day, which doesn't seem to fit your definition. I think he may have actually been referring to cheese, but I'm not really sure. This leads me back to the question that Zocat asked earlier. I'll ask it another way, though. Is there ANY difference between cheese/all-ins and bold moves? If so, is it the level of planning/play involved? Are cheese and all-ins subsets of the larger class of bold moves? That's all I've got for now. I really find this discussion to be both interesting and (perhaps unfortunately) needed. | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
Only bitches cheese. Cause bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks. Like every tool out there, people who cheese generally have no self-awareness. This authoritative analysis of the cheeser (henceforth referred to as "bitches") will allow all the socially retarded kids that cheese to identify themselves and hopefully come to terms with their behavior. Until now, bitches thought that they were only sacrificing sound economic builds in the interest of using a "strategy" void of any skill whatsoever in the interest of a quick and easy win. However, they have been completely unaware of the fact that they are really sacrificing any claim they had towards being a Man. You see, when you begin to question the kind of motivation that pushes an otherwise healthy and normal person to become bitches, you reach some obvious conclusions: bitches have no confidence in their ability to reliably win without cheese. The suspense and challenge of winning a game straight up is too much emotional stimulation for a bitches so he is forced to consider alternative measures. Like all emotional women, the bitches rationalizes his negative behavior and convinces himself that he is in fact "skilled" and a "capable" player. The bitches thinks "If it's a competition and it wins, then it's good enough for me!" However, even this new testosterone destroying strategy is not fullproof. The bitches begins to lose against skilled Men because of their extensive experience dealing with ex girlfriends and bleeding vaginas. The bitches is then forced to further rationalize his capabilities and eventually settles on being just a lesser animal in the food chain. What this means is that the bitches is able to get a free meal here and there but they are quick to run off in the presence of more dominant Men. Effectively, the bitches thrives on a stolen sense of power that he is otherwise incapable of earning. This behavior can be observed in the real world by interacting with a power hungry rent-a-cop who is quick to assert his authoritah until the real police arrive and he cowers away. Bitches exist in all video games. From Dagon carrying Lina in dota and 3v3 Protocol WC3 teams to noob tubers in MW2 and hallway nade spammers in BF2142, bitches have exercised their limited intellectual faculties to find the one press I-win buttons in every game (something they are very proud of, despite the fact that my 4 year old nephew is able to accomplish the same feats while rolling his face across the keyboard). Ladies and gentlemen, this epidemic is growing as our culture continues to reward participation instead of achievement. Less Men are being made today than ever before in the history of our nation. I implore you all to do your duty to combat this growing problem by following these guidelines: - You must scout your opponent and his sexuality as soon as possible (Man or Bitches). - If you scout a Man, engage him in Manly conversation about your shared superiority. - If you scout bitches, prepare the mechanical counter to his cheese. Just as cheese is a simple exercise in thoughtless repetition, so is countering cheese. - This is the most important point: You must talk to the bitches throughout, explain that you are going to dominate him and proceed to thoroughly destroy the bitches' best attempt at being good. This display of confidence and execution will overwhelm the bitches. With enough interaction with real Men using my proven techniques, the bitches will eventually see that he has become a shadow of his former self and will strive to regain his former glory. Let there be no confusion. If you would argue that being a bitches, even part-time, is either "fun" or a "legitimate strategy that can be used to win because all that matters is the result", then you too must seek help. With enough therapy, you may be able to start growing some balls and regain a sense of honor. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
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NiteKat
United States146 Posts
On May 06 2010 03:42 shinosai wrote: I don't know that cheese is always about secrecy. A lot of proxy gateway builds are not hidden very well for proximity and still work very well. For me, cheese is something that you generally must be prepared for, because it usually can't be scouted in time to counter. So, yes, based on secrecy... but the counter isn't to scout it, it's to be prepared. In the cases of reaper rush and proxy gateway, you usually need to prepare for these things ahead of time by having a safe timing on your production building rather than an economic one. Well by the definitions put forth by this thread, it is simple. If you proxy and don't care if it gets scouted, then it is not cheese. It may or may not be all-in, but it is simply not cheese. Edit: it would be an entertaining exercise to figure out what race is the most cheese race using this set of definitions, for both BW and SC2 by just counting the number of strategies considered to be based on stealth (cheese as defined in this thread). One more edit: A question from a BW example to clarify something for me. In PvT suppose that Protoss goes for a proxy reaver drop, is this considered cheese? From my understanding it is not, while it fails almost completely to cause any economic damage when scouted, it does not leave the Protoss at a major disadvantage (assuming they are not retarded and do not lose the shuttle with reaver). They still have a reaver for breaking a push by the Terran or shuttle for Zealot bombs. | ||
zatic
Zurich15325 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:43 Zocat wrote: Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this? Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"? Assume midgame - enemy has been on 1 expansion the whole time, so you're behind economically. Now you try to take 2 expansions (1 hidden) at the same time (while only having the army to defend one). By only taking 1 expansion you stay behind, because the enemy had his advantage longer. You just got even (so not really an option). But if the 2nd expansion is scouted and killed you're even further behind (definition of cheese). Hidden tech can be considered cheese but not all-in. Let's say you hide a fast DT tech and if the DT don't kill the opponent you want to use the DT thread to safely get you expansion up. Fails if scouted, puts you at a severe disadvantage if scouted early (early enough that you don't get your DT out), but has a clear followup. Yes normally cheese strategies are confined to the early to midgame due to near complete information from the midgame on. The hidden expansion you mentioned is a good example of later "cheesy" strategies. A "bold move" is not a term that really needs defining does it? It's just that, a move that is bold. The in-your-face-proxy mentioned somewhere in this thread is definitely not cheese but you can call it a bold move if you want. Generally you shouldn't try to look for more examples of what is cheese and what is all-in. But before you cry "cheesy all-in" at an unusual strategy just consider: Did the strategy rely on secrecy? Did it have a follow-up? | ||
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faction123
Australia949 Posts
On May 06 2010 01:51 Spidermonkey wrote: I hear people refer to every attack as a "timing" attack. I believe it is possible to attack without it being based purely on a timing counter. haha, i'm guessing you watch gretorps stream | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On May 06 2010 01:41 ThreeSixDrew wrote: Just curious, to what extent at the platinum level do you think you see the following: Cheese All-in Standard Gameplay 20/20/60? 40/40/20  Edit: I can safely say that if you're talking about ALL of platinum, then yes the majority of people are there through cheese and all ins. Top end platinum is a different story, of course. | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
Cheese and all-in are the same thing. 14 CC isn't cheese..is simply a start that can be countered by a fast scout with a proper answer. (so also making 3rax marauder is cheese because it can be easily countered by void ray? With this definition we are going to tell that everyhing in the game is cheese, in fact EVERY bio terran army can be easily countered by storms and so on) If the community decide to accept this definition we can take it as a standard but, in my opinion, it has not much reason to exist. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 06 2010 17 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 06 2010 17 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:56 LuDwig- wrote: I don't agree with op. Cheese and all-in are the same thing. 14 CC isn't cheese..is simply a start that can be countered by a fast scout with a proper answer. (so also making 3rax marauder is cheese because it can be easily countered by void ray? With this definition we are going to tell that everyhing in the game is cheese, in fact EVERY bio terran army can be easily countered by storms and so on) If the community decide to accept this definition we can take it as a standard but, in my opinion, it has not much reason to exist. Could you please re-write your post in English? You just said "14cc isn't cheese, but I agree that the situation with it is the same as OP's defnition of cheese" and the rest of your post was 100% wrong. | ||
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acceL.
United States109 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:37 rocketsauce wrote: I think those definitions work fine, but I know personally "cheese" goes back much further than just last year. Back in WC3 it was common to refer to "huntress cheese", etc. and it comes -- obviously -- not from some onomatopoeia of a Korean word, but from calling specific build orders/strategies cheesy. As in lame, or noobish. Ergo why "huntress cheese" is the best example. It was specifically used to reference strats that were commonly thought probably should be nerfed a bit (again, huntresses being a good example depending on the patch.) Regardless of your definition, I'm 100% certain that the liquipedia explanation involving korean words is way off the mark. Calling things "cheesy" (to mean lame or dorky) is very common in english, and that's certainly where it comes from. Yep, cheese goes ALL THE WAY BACK TO WAR3. Rofl, gtfo newb. | ||
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newbcake
United States57 Posts
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