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Definitions: Cheese and All-In - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
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Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
May 05 2010 15:01 GMT
#21
The fact that this thread even needs to exist puts in a rage. Only bans can save me now.
Moderator
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
May 05 2010 15:02 GMT
#22
despite this thread 2000 newbies will continue to refer to non-cheese builds as cheese.
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Alsn
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden995 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-05 15:08:13
May 05 2010 15:06 GMT
#23
On May 05 2010 23:37 HolydaKing wrote:
Isn't baneling bust vs Terran cheese aswell? Nice post
and: guardian = broodlord right?
I'd say it depends. It is entirely possible for you to scout a supply depot wall and then decide to go banelings. In which case I'd say it's more like early pressure than cheese, possibly a bit on the all-in side, but not really(since you know what your enemy is doing and it doesn't really matter if he scouts your baneling nest, not to mention that it's conceivable that a zerg with lots of lings can deny scouting altogether that early in the game).

A blind baneling bust without actually scouting the terran wall-in is a cheese in my book though. If he sees your baneling nest relatively early he can just make a proper wall and win.
Machina improba! Vel mihi ede potum vel mihi redde nummos meos!
Mirror0423
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States175 Posts
May 05 2010 15:07 GMT
#24
by this argument all cheeses are all-ins...
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
May 05 2010 15:11 GMT
#25
On May 06 2010 00:07 TossNub wrote:
by this argument all cheeses are all-ins...

By this comment you reveal that you either cannot accurately read or can read but cannot comprehend what you have read.
Moderator
shape
Profile Joined December 2009
United States119 Posts
May 05 2010 15:13 GMT
#26
that little girl scares me 0_o
roflcopter420
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden168 Posts
May 05 2010 15:19 GMT
#27
On May 06 2010 00:11 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2010 00:07 TossNub wrote:
by this argument all cheeses are all-ins...

By this comment you reveal that you either cannot accurately read or can read but cannot comprehend what you have read.


By this comment you reveal that you either are in a bad mood or are in a good mood but are a meanie.

TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage).
Its much the same as milking a cow
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
May 05 2010 15:22 GMT
#28
On May 06 2010 00:19 roflcopter420 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2010 00:11 Chill wrote:
On May 06 2010 00:07 TossNub wrote:
by this argument all cheeses are all-ins...

By this comment you reveal that you either cannot accurately read or can read but cannot comprehend what you have read.


By this comment you reveal that you either are in a bad mood or are in a good mood but are a meanie.

TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage).

There's nothing mean or bad about that comment whatsoever. From Zatic's definitions:
Cheese: If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage
All-in: All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered.

There is overlap, but not complete overlap.
Moderator
sYz-Adrenaline
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1850 Posts
May 05 2010 15:24 GMT
#29
On May 06 2010 00:22 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2010 00:19 roflcopter420 wrote:
On May 06 2010 00:11 Chill wrote:
On May 06 2010 00:07 TossNub wrote:
by this argument all cheeses are all-ins...

By this comment you reveal that you either cannot accurately read or can read but cannot comprehend what you have read.


By this comment you reveal that you either are in a bad mood or are in a good mood but are a meanie.

TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage).

There's nothing mean or bad about that comment whatsoever. From Zatic's definitions:
Cheese: If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage
All-in: All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered.

There is overlap, but not complete overlap.


very much agreed with the definitions that zatic put
Can you feel the rush?
roemy
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany432 Posts
May 05 2010 15:24 GMT
#30
good ole' cannon rush?

also... burrowed roaches, burrowed infestors, DTs, cloaked banshees, nukes are all cheeses then if i build the required structures a wee bit off base (on generated creep)?
rock is fine.. paper could need a buff, but scissors have to be nerfed
roflcopter420
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden168 Posts
May 05 2010 15:27 GMT
#31
On May 06 2010 00:22 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2010 00:19 roflcopter420 wrote:
On May 06 2010 00:11 Chill wrote:
On May 06 2010 00:07 TossNub wrote:
by this argument all cheeses are all-ins...

By this comment you reveal that you either cannot accurately read or can read but cannot comprehend what you have read.


By this comment you reveal that you either are in a bad mood or are in a good mood but are a meanie.

TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage).

There's nothing mean or bad about that comment whatsoever. From Zatic's definitions:
Cheese: If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage
All-in: All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered.

There is overlap, but not complete overlap.


no need to explain to me, i both understood and explained to TossNub in a way fit for someone who might be reading impared. While your comment to TossNub was technically true, I think the way you formulated the sentence might have been aimed at insulting him. Why else put such focus on what his comment revelead, instead on focusing directly on the misunderstanding he made?

Cheers, good sir.
Its much the same as milking a cow
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
May 05 2010 15:36 GMT
#32
On May 06 2010 00:02 Amber[LighT] wrote:
despite this thread 2000 newbies will continue to refer to non-cheese builds as cheese.


Then we will point them to this thread 2000 times.

Our hyperlinks will blot out the sun
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
rocketsauce
Profile Joined April 2010
United States28 Posts
May 05 2010 15:37 GMT
#33
I think those definitions work fine, but I know personally "cheese" goes back much further than just last year. Back in WC3 it was common to refer to "huntress cheese", etc. and it comes -- obviously -- not from some onomatopoeia of a Korean word, but from calling specific build orders/strategies cheesy. As in lame, or noobish. Ergo why "huntress cheese" is the best example.

It was specifically used to reference strats that were commonly thought probably should be nerfed a bit (again, huntresses being a good example depending on the patch.)

Regardless of your definition, I'm 100% certain that the liquipedia explanation involving korean words is way off the mark. Calling things "cheesy" (to mean lame or dorky) is very common in english, and that's certainly where it comes from.
:)
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-05 15:44:35
May 05 2010 15:43 GMT
#34
On May 06 2010 00:19 roflcopter420 wrote:
TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage).


Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this?

Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"?
Assume midgame - enemy has been on 1 expansion the whole time, so you're behind economically.
Now you try to take 2 expansions (1 hidden) at the same time (while only having the army to defend one).
By only taking 1 expansion you stay behind, because the enemy had his advantage longer. You just got even (so not really an option).
But if the 2nd expansion is scouted and killed you're even further behind (definition of cheese).

NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
May 05 2010 15:58 GMT
#35
Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this?


Any kind of economic cheese. Hidden expos, for example.

Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"?


You seem to be laboring under the belief that "cheese"="bad". It does not. It's simply "cheese".

If you're behind and you have to cheese to get back to parity, do it. Don't be afraid of what things are called.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
roflcopter420
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden168 Posts
May 05 2010 16:00 GMT
#36
On May 06 2010 00:43 Zocat wrote:

Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this?


imo 15cc is also cheese but not all in. Also some harass-oriented builds are cheesy, but not all in.

Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"?
Assume midgame - enemy has been on 1 expansion the whole time, so you're behind economically.
Now you try to take 2 expansions (1 hidden) at the same time (while only having the army to defend one).
By only taking 1 expansion you stay behind, because the enemy had his advantage longer. You just got even (so not really an option).
But if the 2nd expansion is scouted and killed you're even further behind (definition of cheese).


i dunno lol
Its much the same as milking a cow
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
May 05 2010 16:04 GMT
#37
PvZ: 1gate proxy and forge wall at choke for possible cannon rush with 2 zealots or adapt into walled off fast expo if zerg managed to defend.

This is an example of proxying shits in the middle and cannon rushing but not an all in nor cheese.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
uNiGNoRe
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Germany1115 Posts
May 05 2010 16:21 GMT
#38
I just recently thought about making a thread like this. Your definitions are very solid. The misunderstanding is even worse for the word "metagame" though. Nony's thread, despite being very accurate, didn't really help the situation much.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-05 16:29:50
May 05 2010 16:29 GMT
#39
On May 06 2010 00:43 Zocat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2010 00:19 roflcopter420 wrote:
TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage).


Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this?

Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"?
Assume midgame - enemy has been on 1 expansion the whole time, so you're behind economically.
Now you try to take 2 expansions (1 hidden) at the same time (while only having the army to defend one).
By only taking 1 expansion you stay behind, because the enemy had his advantage longer. You just got even (so not really an option).
But if the 2nd expansion is scouted and killed you're even further behind (definition of cheese).



Prior to the queen and spine crawler nerf:

the build a hatch + cancel + lay egg + build spine crawler build was a good example of cheese that was not an all-in build.

2gate proxy is another example of a cheese build that is NOT all-in
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-05 16:38:26
May 05 2010 16:37 GMT
#40
Hiding Stargates is one thing, but hiding a Dark Shrine is pretty much bonefied sensible. It only allows the production of a unit, it doesn't physically produce it.

And by their very nature, they inflict way more damage in their first attack if you manage to catch someone with their pants down.
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