EPTDefinitions: Cheese and All-In - Page 2
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Chill
Calgary25991 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On May 05 2010 23:37 HolydaKing wrote: I'd say it depends. It is entirely possible for you to scout a supply depot wall and then decide to go banelings. In which case I'd say it's more like early pressure than cheese, possibly a bit on the all-in side, but not really(since you know what your enemy is doing and it doesn't really matter if he scouts your baneling nest, not to mention that it's conceivable that a zerg with lots of lings can deny scouting altogether that early in the game).Isn't baneling bust vs Terran cheese aswell? Nice post  and: guardian = broodlord right?  A blind baneling bust without actually scouting the terran wall-in is a cheese in my book though. If he sees your baneling nest relatively early he can just make a proper wall and win. | ||
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25991 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:07 TossNub wrote: by this argument all cheeses are all-ins... By this comment you reveal that you either cannot accurately read or can read but cannot comprehend what you have read. | ||
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shape
United States119 Posts
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roflcopter420
Sweden168 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:11 Chill wrote: By this comment you reveal that you either cannot accurately read or can read but cannot comprehend what you have read. By this comment you reveal that you either are in a bad mood or are in a good mood but are a meanie. TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage). | ||
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Chill
Calgary25991 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:19 roflcopter420 wrote: By this comment you reveal that you either are in a bad mood or are in a good mood but are a meanie. TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage). There's nothing mean or bad about that comment whatsoever. From Zatic's definitions: Cheese: If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage All-in: All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. There is overlap, but not complete overlap. | ||
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sYz-Adrenaline
United States1850 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:22 Chill wrote: There's nothing mean or bad about that comment whatsoever. From Zatic's definitions: Cheese: If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage All-in: All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. There is overlap, but not complete overlap. very much agreed with the definitions that zatic put | ||
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
also... burrowed roaches, burrowed infestors, DTs, cloaked banshees, nukes are all cheeses then if i build the required structures a wee bit off base (on generated creep)? | ||
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roflcopter420
Sweden168 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:22 Chill wrote: There's nothing mean or bad about that comment whatsoever. From Zatic's definitions: Cheese: If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage All-in: All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. There is overlap, but not complete overlap. no need to explain to me, i both understood and explained to TossNub in a way fit for someone who might be reading impared. While your comment to TossNub was technically true, I think the way you formulated the sentence might have been aimed at insulting him. Why else put such focus on what his comment revelead, instead on focusing directly on the misunderstanding he made? Cheers, good sir. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:02 Amber[LighT] wrote: despite this thread 2000 newbies will continue to refer to non-cheese builds as cheese. Then we will point them to this thread 2000 times. Our hyperlinks will blot out the sun | ||
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rocketsauce
United States28 Posts
It was specifically used to reference strats that were commonly thought probably should be nerfed a bit (again, huntresses being a good example depending on the patch.) Regardless of your definition, I'm 100% certain that the liquipedia explanation involving korean words is way off the mark. Calling things "cheesy" (to mean lame or dorky) is very common in english, and that's certainly where it comes from. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:19 roflcopter420 wrote: TossNub, they often overlap, but not always. For example, 14CC is cheese because ur dead if it is scouted early, but it does have a very clear followup (a normal game with economic advantage). Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this? Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"? Assume midgame - enemy has been on 1 expansion the whole time, so you're behind economically. Now you try to take 2 expansions (1 hidden) at the same time (while only having the army to defend one). By only taking 1 expansion you stay behind, because the enemy had his advantage longer. You just got even (so not really an option). But if the 2nd expansion is scouted and killed you're even further behind (definition of cheese). | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this? Any kind of economic cheese. Hidden expos, for example. Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"? You seem to be laboring under the belief that "cheese"="bad". It does not. It's simply "cheese". If you're behind and you have to cheese to get back to parity, do it. Don't be afraid of what things are called. | ||
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roflcopter420
Sweden168 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:43 Zocat wrote: Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this? imo 15cc is also cheese but not all in. Also some harass-oriented builds are cheesy, but not all in. Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"? Assume midgame - enemy has been on 1 expansion the whole time, so you're behind economically. Now you try to take 2 expansions (1 hidden) at the same time (while only having the army to defend one). By only taking 1 expansion you stay behind, because the enemy had his advantage longer. You just got even (so not really an option). But if the 2nd expansion is scouted and killed you're even further behind (definition of cheese). i dunno lol | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
This is an example of proxying shits in the middle and cannon rushing but not an all in nor cheese. | ||
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uNiGNoRe
Germany1115 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On May 06 2010 00:43 Zocat wrote: Can you give me, a total noob, another example for cheese which is not all-in, since the 14cc is the only example for this? Also where is the difference between cheese and a "bold move"? Can cheese only happen in "early game"? Assume midgame - enemy has been on 1 expansion the whole time, so you're behind economically. Now you try to take 2 expansions (1 hidden) at the same time (while only having the army to defend one). By only taking 1 expansion you stay behind, because the enemy had his advantage longer. You just got even (so not really an option). But if the 2nd expansion is scouted and killed you're even further behind (definition of cheese). Prior to the queen and spine crawler nerf: the build a hatch + cancel + lay egg + build spine crawler build was a good example of cheese that was not an all-in build. 2gate proxy is another example of a cheese build that is NOT all-in | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
And by their very nature, they inflict way more damage in their first attack if you manage to catch someone with their pants down. | ||
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