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Really interesting build, thanks Mini for posting.
Just the fact that during that replay, you're on his side of the map at the critical 8 - 9 minute mark, while getting that expansion established, is really impressive. At a moment when most of us toss are wondering if an all-in is coming to kill our expansion, you're over on his side, making him pull scvs to heal up his bunkers - all the while having complete map control.
The real brilliance in this build is being able to project strength at a time when you're relatively weak. This is one of the real brilliant uses of hallucination that I think is going to become more and more popular. Even if these hallucinations start being detected, always keeping the opponent on edge as to what's actually real, and how many has some pretty significant implications. I could see this transitioning really well into some later game stuff like hallucinated colossi to really sell the tech, while going templar.
Remember guys - no one is saying this build doesn't have weaknesses or counters, it's just one of many possibilities that may or may not be appropriate to do based on the current conditions. As many have said, it's just great to be able to have in the bag.
Thanks again man. :D
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On February 18 2011 00:22 Antimage wrote:
The idea is great though, and I could see it working on maps such as metal close spawn.
Yeah the build is designed for close positions on a 4-player map.
I'm not convinced that it's so impossible for a Terran to scout this effectively, if they just check your army with an scv and see no immortals then they'll probably know what's going on, or get suspicious and use a scan since the build is getting more popular after GSTL. Also if they scan your main and see no robo they might also get suspicious since robo placement is pretty consistent across the board. If they're going mech they could float a barracks and see everything you're doing as well, and it's not inconceivable that they'll scan your army at the watchtower. Terrans do that fairly regularly if they weren't sure of your composition or strength of your army. And then of course you still can be hiding a hidden-expo scouting scv which players are doing a lot more these days even if they wouldn't suspect you're doing this strat.
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I'm glad it's finally getting some positive feedback. It's frustrating when people come in and see and see a new strat, and try and poke flaws in it. Guess what, every strat has flaws, every, single, one.
I used this strat at the tip top of the ladder, on NA and the korean server. I've lost once, out of twenty or so games, trying it. Every single terran has reacted.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Well, that's what you get for playing good players, Minigun. Down in scrub world where I inhabit people are dumber than that :D
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On February 18 2011 01:30 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 01:22 Kiarip wrote:
but what kind of 3 gate robo doesn't at all engage at high level of play? =\
I dunno =/ I guess it's worth doing once in a while. The kind that sees bunkers with SCVs ready to repair and decides that it would be suicidal to try and break it. If they don't push, they at least have map control and a larger army at that point. They'll be behind on economy, but at least they still have a fighting chance and can instead try for a proxy warpin or drop play to circumvent the defenses.
You would usually at least force him to actually try to repair the bunkers as long as you have the forcefields to retreat neatly, I think that a 3 gate robo that actually makes the immortal, but then doesn't even try to engage against an expo that fast seems rather fishy.
edit: I do think that the build is really nice though. It's not something I would practice unless I had to play some important series though, would be frustrating to lose to dumb shit =/
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I've been thinking about this for a while and was wondering why nobody has done it or talked about it.
Its a god thing i have the habit to constantly scout all game long with an SCV/Marine like i used to in BW. Good scouting would beat this.
But then again nobody really has good scouting habits in this game 
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EDIT: Sorry, I had asked something really dumb :B
Anyway, do you have any more replays you could share minigun?
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Looks really cool, and of course I love the idea of fe'ing myself. I never thought of using halluc to pull it off like that. I will totally be trying this out once I'm done getting 500 Team Protoss wins. Mohander and a new decal will take presidence.
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MIni got any more replays of this yet?
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On February 19 2011 01:25 Minigun wrote:
I'm glad it's finally getting some positive feedback. It's frustrating when people come in and see and see a new strat, and try and poke flaws in it. Guess what, every strat has flaws, every, single, one.
I used this strat at the tip top of the ladder, on NA and the korean server. I've lost once, out of twenty or so games, trying it. Every single terran has reacted.
You shouldn't be so emotionally attached to strats, plus this one wasn't created by you so I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about it. If people are pointing out issues with a strategy, and their concerns are actually valid or well thought-out you should be grateful because a strategy doesn't improve by everyone gushing love on it. You can't really pin it's success on how it performs in ladder. Even on KR ladder, when you're playing bo1 against people you aren't familiar with, cheeses and plays like this are always much more effective, especially when they're expecting to be cheesed as most players do.
The strat revolves around denying information of your trickery to the Terran, if they see through you then you'll be undone. Unfortunately there isn't any way to totally deny information to a Terran, there's just too many ways they can scout you. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, even if it's somewhat luck-based it can still be a great strategy to pull out in a bo3 or bo5 to catch your opponent off-guard, exactly how it was used when the strat was introduced by IMSeed in the GSTL. But like all strats that revolve around trickery, as it becomes more popular players learn to read its tells and it becomes less effective. Especially this one, I think, because it's only used in such specific circumstances.
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On February 19 2011 09:52 Space Invader wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 01:25 Minigun wrote:
I'm glad it's finally getting some positive feedback. It's frustrating when people come in and see and see a new strat, and try and poke flaws in it. Guess what, every strat has flaws, every, single, one.
I used this strat at the tip top of the ladder, on NA and the korean server. I've lost once, out of twenty or so games, trying it. Every single terran has reacted. You shouldn't be so emotionally attached to strats, plus this one wasn't created by you so I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about it. If people are pointing out issues with a strategy, and their concerns are actually valid or well thought-out you should be grateful because a strategy doesn't improve by everyone gushing love on it. You can't really pin it's success on how it performs in ladder. Even on KR ladder, when you're playing bo1 against people you aren't familiar with, cheeses and plays like this are always much more effective, especially when they're expecting to be cheesed as most players do. The strat revolves around denying information of your trickery to the Terran, if they see through you then you'll be undone. Unfortunately there isn't any way to totally deny information to a Terran, there's just too many ways they can scout you. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, even if it's somewhat luck-based it can still be a great strategy to pull out in a bo3 or bo5 to catch your opponent off-guard, exactly how it was used when the strat was introduced by IMSeed in the GSTL. But like all strats that revolve around trickery, as it becomes more popular players learn to read its tells and it becomes less effective. Especially this one, I think, because it's only used in such specific circumstances.
I'm not attached to it at all, I just like strats to have a fair chance, before they are bashed.
Every strat has flaws, just about every strat has a counter if scouted, no?
People are pointing out such obvious things.
-What if it gets scouted?
deny scouting obviously
-What if he scans the probe transfer?
well if scans your dark shrine you are screwed as well, pick a good time to do it.
etc etc etc
I mean I kind of know why top players don't bother posting here.
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Ah, I love creative hallucination play. I haven't seen the replay yet, but I just watched IMSeed vs oGsHyperdub because of this thread. Really cool. I am nowhere near the level to utilize this strat, but it is very entertaining seeing unorthodox play at higher level. Mind games at its best 
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Does anyone have more replays? I'm looking to make this a standard strat when I ladder.
My main concern is not getting killed by immediate Medivac drop reactions when he finds out he's been had. Without Storm+Amulet it is so hard to defend against drops at far-away bases.
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Interesting build, thanks for posting. I can definitely see this being great in tense even skill matchups. I like how the hallucination play makes it affordable. I guess you might be tempted to hallu some phoenix to scout at some point, but does that tip off this strategy too much? If you get enough of an economic advantage I suppose you can just build a robo for observers anyway around the time you want to scout, right?
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How *should* the Terran react?
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This is a cute little build. Thanks minigun.
It's nice to see more use out of hallucination other than for scouting.
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Sorry you just seemed to be getting upset.
How do you deny scouting? Can you even with this build, without tipping them off that you're up to some shenanigans?
Every strat has a counter, sure, but the solid builds are the ones that don't depend on secrecy or trickery, where you aren't rolling dice hoping that he's not going to attack you otherwise you lose, and where even if there is a 'counter' to it, you aren't going to lose or be at a huge disadvantage just because he saw your comp and knew what comp to go. Colossus off 2 base for instance, he can make vikings yes, but you aren't at a disadvantage just because he knew you were going colossus and was able to prepare, it's more that you'd be at an advantage if he didn't see, and then it would be neutral if he did. Which of course you know, I'm just illustrating my point.
I never said the build was bad, we saw how sick it was in the gstl, all I did was say the only problem with the build was that if you got scouted you're in a lot of trouble, but you just kept saying that it's impossible for them to scout you. I thought up some ways I thought they could do it, but you didn't respond to that :s
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On February 19 2011 17:15 Feverus wrote:
How *should* the Terran react?
lol. No matter your race, intel is key. I always try to scout/scan when I can for sneaky expos/proxies/hidden tech/changing army positions/etc
It's what wins/loses you the game.
But yes, in this case, almost all Terrans would be too set in their training of reacting defensively against potential heavy aggression, and accepting what they see, because only a fair few ever see hallucination in use, and never for projecting armies (usually only for phoenix scouting).
I love that the hallucination tech forces them to react in-base to a robo build too. From there, templar tech would be an unexpected twist (they'd probably think your next logical step is a colossi heavy army).
Well I like it anyway. =)
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the fact this was posted by mini means it's a damn solid build. Protoss can own Terran once you get to late game. It does seem like there would be a timing, like most 1 gate FE builds, where they can kill you if your sentry micro is not perfect. I love the idea of feinting robo tech with hallucinate though. I think hallu needs more play
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Definitely the most creative build i've seen in a long time, very well done!
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EPT
