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Thanks for the post. Here's a question:
Why not just take your natural at the typical time? If you've denied scouting and tricked him, it seems unlikely that he'll try to push out and kill it, but if you do a double-expand and he thinks he's got an econ advantage, he'll try a timing push against your second (T thinks first) expansion at your natural. Since you double-expanded, it'll be tough to hold this off and you'll have to cancel it (as was the case in the GSL game). If instead you'd taken your natural earlier and gotten units out without the extra expansion, you'll likely be able to defeat the push (probably with colossi) and hold your natural expo. IMO, having a live natural and no hidden expo after winning a battle is a better position than having a hidden expo and no natural after losing a battle.
I can sort of understand why Seed chose the hidden expansion in his game, as they were close positions on LT, which makes for a very quick timing attack from the Terran plus an expansion that is rather out-of-the-way and very unlikely to get scouted. But I still wonder if it would've just been safer to take his natural earlier and be better prepared for the Terran's push.
Is perhaps the idea that by sacrificing the natural you're able to tech to HT and skip colossi and the T is likely to back off because he thinks he's up an expansion? In which case, is the whole hidden expo thing just a way to buy time to skip colossus tech and go straight to HT? Seems like a lot of effort....
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Of course there is a ton of effort in a build like this, it emphasizes a completely non-standard style of play that most high level Terrans probably haven't practiced against up until now.
Like you said, if they can take the nat (which really could have been prevented in Seed's game) they will back off given that they haven't scouted the hidden expo, just like Hyperdub did. This buys you enough time to get the HTs out, as well as get a ton of gates. However, don't discount the other tech paths. If you go DTs instead of HTs, you could easily get star/robo tech too and use a primarily chargelot/dt ground army with either robo or star support. Hell, this build might give you enough time to get 1 of each or 2 of one of them. This I can't say for sure as I haven't tried it yet.
It is a very cool stylistic approach to the early game of PvT, and I think that these kinds of plays (involving mind games and hidden tech/expos) generally will become more powerful as top level Protoss players learn when the best times to fake someone out is.
Even if you play standard for most of the game, you can use Halluc in the mid game to fake out your late game tech choice. For instance, you should halluc phoenix on top of collosus to force a ton more vikings then go Immortal/HT/Stalker or faking Collosus and getting Carriers (this would be a bad fake, but you get the idea [I hope])
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If this is done often enough, though, people will learn to look at sentry energy right? If you know what to look for it is pretty much a giveaway.
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lol, i laugh so hard when that 3 colossi got scanned by drewbie last night xD....
love you so much minigun, love you since inflow x)...
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I like things like this. Shame I'm not good enough/my opponents aren't good enough.
Pretty surprised at some peoples attitudes in the thread, maybe that's just me though.
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LOL, I've used this build to great success, but have been loller'rolled by idiot who try to stim push into it anyway. Also, I have a few losses to people who scanned my army... and noticed it was hallu.
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On February 18 2011 06:19 ShatterZer0 wrote:
LOL, I've used this build to great success, but have been loller'rolled by idiot who try to stim push into it anyway.
well you can't play mindgames with someone who has no brain 8D
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On February 17 2011 21:46 Minigun wrote:This is best for tournament play, best out of 3's best out of 5's, it's good to have one of these strats lying around.
Still doable in ladder though
Would be so cool to mix in hallucination during a best of series, and then the very next game actually go for a 3 gate robo attack into the Terran natural. That game Seed played makes me think about incorporating Hallucination and deception into games against good opponents.
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You guys underestimate +1/+1 chargelots, they can hold their own with MMM balls pretty well. The delayed HT tech, is really ok.
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Now Ts will know what you're up to Mini =/
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On February 18 2011 06:51 skp wrote:
Now Ts will know what you're up to Mini =/
Good, then I can 3 gate robo over their expo's more  .
On February 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 21:46 Minigun wrote:This is best for tournament play, best out of 3's best out of 5's, it's good to have one of these strats lying around.
Still doable in ladder though Would be so cool to mix in hallucination during a best of series, and then the very next game actually go for a 3 gate robo attack into the Terran natural. That game Seed played makes me think about incorporating Hallucination and deception into games against good opponents.
I've played around with it. I've hallucinated colossi, faked an engagement, then backed off, only to go templar and watch them make lots of vikings.
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On February 18 2011 06:56 Minigun wrote:I've hallucinated colossi, faked an engagement, then backed off, only to go templar and watch them make lots of vikings.
I've hallucinated colossus and attacked, with them immediately just leaving the game ;P
This was on ladder a while ago, lost the replay xD
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On February 18 2011 07:03 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 06:56 Minigun wrote:I've hallucinated colossi, faked an engagement, then backed off, only to go templar and watch them make lots of vikings. I've hallucinated colossus and attacked, with them immediately just leaving the game ;P This was on ladder a while ago, lost the replay xD
lol I hope that doesn't happen much ^^
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On February 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 21:46 Minigun wrote:This is best for tournament play, best out of 3's best out of 5's, it's good to have one of these strats lying around.
Still doable in ladder though Would be so cool to mix in hallucination during a best of series, and then the very next game actually go for a 3 gate robo attack into the Terran natural. That game Seed played makes me think about incorporating Hallucination and deception into games against good opponents.
That's the most awesome thing with deception, your oponent can't never be sure if you're going for the real thing or not (unless he has really really good scouting skills), specially in sc where information is scarce.
Hallucinated collosus are also really good when you go for blink stalkers. Not only do they give you sight of the upper ground, but also they're priority targets (for humans, not AI), which makes them perfect meatshields. And since you already have the Twilight Council, the transition to templar is a lot easier.
EDIT: I've found hallucinated collosus usefull, but be aware that I'm by no means a top level player.
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This is really one of the funny and best strats since a long time.
Hallucination is so underused. I try to use it more but often only to soak up viking fire. But will play around with this strat more and more now.
Thx alot.
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This seems to be a really good build agaisnt master terrans that now what are they doing and will react the way we spect they to do it, but i will only work if they are FE right?
ill try this build in a tournament game because i think i would gain more benefit if my opponent thinks "oh! he is going 3 gate robo again!" or "he will not fool me again with those hallucinated inmortals."
Nice strategy
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Cool idea. Hallucinate is way underused imo. This thread title should probably have a [G] in front of it.
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Hallucination is 100/100 and a robo is 200/100. Seems like you might as well get that robo for an earlier observer. Is the benefit of a slightly earlier expo big enough to justify this?
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:13 Treadmill wrote:
If this is done often enough, though, people will learn to look at sentry energy right? If you know what to look for it is pretty much a giveaway.
Then you bluff the other way and dump energy from a sentry (forcefields somewhere) to feign a hallu-fakerobo while doing a real 3gate robo push =p
Or you just don't bring along the Sentry/Sentries you used for Hallu when you parade your faked robo pressure in front of the Terran.
I don't think there's many players out there who will stop and think "wait, this push might be a hallucinated immortal designed to keep me defensive while he gets his hidden expansion and infrastructure up and running" rather than "Uh oh 3gate robo better pull scv's for repair", I mean you really can't risk getting run over by a real 3gate robo.
I really like seeing builds like this, lots of mind games and clever solutions to make it all work.
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On February 18 2011 07:44 AndAgain wrote:
Hallucination is 100/100 and a robo is 200/100. Seems like you might as well get that robo for an earlier observer. Is the benefit of a slightly earlier expo big enough to justify this?
Ehm, hallucination is meant to fake a 3 gate robo, not just to scout (although that's a nice extra).
1 Robo + 3 Immortals = 950/400 vs Hallucination + 3 sentrys = 250/400.
And let's not forget that you would need those sentrys anyway
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EPT
