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Hi,
I'm _only_ a 3k Diamond Zerg and well... I watched the replay... I am not sure what to think about this Master thing, but I must admit I was SHOCKED.
I'm really sorry if appear to be some kind BM or anything, but in my eyes you and your opponent just played horrendously, I can't even believe you got no clue of why you lost this game. And I use to believe Master Zergs had such divine play compared to me that I never thought this can happen.
What is MY pov about this sad situation :
1) Your opponent FExpanded SO greedily ! He made 1 rax, no bunker, almost no units for about 8-9 minutes and you did NOTHING to punish him. Okay, I too love to macro, go into the late game, etc., but I think both of you were too much focused about that macro thing you even forgot to punish obvious mistakes and such greedy moves. The second I scout this, I go mass speedlings and kill him outright, or at least kill all of the SCVs in his expansion and force CC to lift off, or force him to make defensive structures. As a reactive Zerg, you should be a great macro player, but you should also be able to know when to go all in if shit like this happens. When your opp goes to take a third, okay you sent a handfull of speedlings and deny it, which was well played but too much shy. By this times, at 8-9 minutes you could have sent 50+ speedlings and outrun the shit out of him !
Watch the MrBitter stream, the ZvT coaching : MrBitter plays against a Fast expanding Terran, EGMachine teaches him how to macro. Then, he scouts the terran going a fast third, MrBitter asks him : "what should I do ? Should I expand again ?", and EGMachine, one of the best zergs out there, a good macro player, do you know what he says him ? This : YOU JUST CANNOT LET HIM DO THAT. JUST GO SPEEDLINGS ALL IN !, MrBitter asks : really ? EGMachine : YES. And then he goes mass speedlings, overruns the terran and he just GGs !
Its good to play a macro game, but it must be fair : if you opp tries "cheesing" you by not walling or bunkering or teching fast to 2 starports that quick, just FUCKIN KILL HIM RIGHT NOW.
2) Admittedly, you didnt scout or didnt want to go all in for a reason. Ok, lets assume It was a matter of choice. Well, you see he expands like crazy and tries to mech. You expand a lot, which is good, then SCOUT him : he has litterally NOTHING for such a long time. At 20 minute mark he had 92 pop, WTF ??? Beside his gold and his third at the right which were PF's, his only units are a few tanks and 2-3 thors, few vikings and an undefended natural. Just send 60+ upgraded speedlings and destroy everything that is not PF, then morph into banes and go for PFs !
3) There is a macro problem : the second I see T goes mech, my goal is too reach 3/3 ultra baneling 200/200 which RAPES every single thing T can throw at you. Search for the thread somewhere in this forum, a master Zerg just speeks about this composition. Its just unstoppable. In a normal game, a good terran will send 6 by 6 blue flame hellions raping shitloads of my drones while taking half of the map, and guess what ? I'm still reaching 200/200 upraded ultra banes in 16-18 min with 4-5 bases no matter what, my only fear is that T decides to push and sustain before 15 and micro really well his tanks, and applies constant pressure. In your replay T did not do any real pressure at all, you were almost playing alone for 20 minutes, and guess what ? At 20 min mark he was FUCKIN 92 SUPPLY !!!!!!! YES ! You were 200/200, but in fact you got nothing beside drones, useless mutas, and some zerglings/banes that you didn use to do anything with. Even if you didn want to overrun him by zerglings, 20 min with no pressure means you have 200/200 ultra banes fully upgraded by this time.
Please look at your own replay and see what T gets at this time. NOTHING that is able to stop that.
4) Okay, so you are starting your FIRST ground upgrade (which is carapace) at something like 20 minutes in the game. O_O WTF MAN ! And you are going to tell me ultra bane suck against him ? OF COURSE THEY SUCK MAN, they are naked ! You will not beat any mech army if you are not 3/3 upgraded and dont tell me you didnt have the time or the money to do this.
5) Terran Mech is strong, but really beatable if you know what he is doing. Of course in your case, it was hopeless : he had 30 minutes to take the map uncontested, then buils PFs everywhere, your units were not fully upgraded... of course he rapes you man. If a Terran is playing alone 30 minutes and he takes the whole map and builds 9526874351 PFs everywhere, why should he loose ? What was so amazing in your macro or you skills that makes him deserve to loose this game ? What did you do ? Nydus dropping 2 poor Ultras into his main when he already took the map ? No man, this is not an incredible, game winning move. Your opponent was slow, didn apply pressure, has limited map awarness, you just didn exploit his mistakes nor made any attemps beside waiting until you mine out a billion bases and then start pumping some unupgraded cost inefficient crap and send it to death.
I am sorry being so harsh, but for me the reasons you lose this game were just too obvious, there is so many things you could have done in order to win, it is just insane. I hope I will help anyway.
EDIT : about the viking opening, just go "no-muta-no bane-speedling infestor" strat, run speedlings in the tanks and scvs and own vikings with your infestors. If will save you so much gas you would not believe, you can tech hive out of 3 bases and start your upgrades so early that the speedlings will quicly become a real pain in the ass. And all of this while expanding (just think of your 30+ extra drones you made that could have been 60 2/2 speedlings, watch the rep and see what you could have done with these).
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On February 17 2011 18:36 L3g3nd_ wrote:
Against a large amount of tanks, run a few lings in at a time and let the tanks pick themselves off, or using infested terrans to do the same thing.
I advice you go to a really good Terran or Zerg and ask him for advice, theres so few players around your level (3500) that actually post here or would read it, so youre better off going directly to one of them
i know, but there are a couple of good Zergs such as Morrow, Darkforce, Zelniq who post regurally on the forums, as well as some of the one thousand terrans who are really high up there in masters.
I thought about messaging some of these guys, but honestly, i guess some of them at least are coaches too, so asking for free advices is like bagging, so i thought i'll try my luck this way. I'd love to hear Morrow's take on this, as i remember him palying on Metalo back then with T somewhat similarily, i might send him a PM.
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Well, I´m only 2800 masters but this is what I see: You stayed on mutas too long imo and you let him take his 4th too easy. If you had switched to a ground based army there would have been no way for him to take the 4th with 3 tanks + 2 thors. You should have just tried to outright kill him instead of harrassing with mutas. Once he had the 2 Pfs and the turrets standing there was just no way you could win this.
The only thing you can do is not letting it come to this point.
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I am watching the replay with your point of view.
So,
here is some of my thoughts:
1. At 7:30 you scouted the two reactor airport -> Ton of zerglings (he tries to take his third too) and attack
At that moment if you do that you win. And it is possible you scouted everything he was doing.
2. You always have a lot of minerals piled up. If you used those minerals to make zerglings. He would have never taken his third for example.
3. 17 You lost all you mutalisk to two thors and missile thurets.
Why did you feel vikings where the problem?
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I just started watching the replay and I already see that you basically didn't do ANYTHING aggressive early on and let the Terran take 2 free expos. A good Zerg player will always remember to punish greedy T's. He didn't have any units early game, no bunkers, no siege tanks, just a handful of marines, you could have run over him at the start with like 20 speedlings. It wouldn't even be a big investment.
Edit: That Muta suicide was terrible as well. This replay doesn't even feel like a Masters game.
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@ DjayEl
I appreciate you trying to give feedback, but you see things in black and white, and wrongly many times.
1. For the 100th time. I did not want to go allin even if i could have won with it. I refuse to believe this is the correct, screw that, that this is the only way of winning vs terran. I think we can all agree i piled up a horrendous lead instead of winning right ahead.
2. a few tanks, thors and PFs are more then enough to hold off stuff thrown at it. If you watched the rep you could ahve noticed he was not afraid to use all his scvs for repair and even calling down mules to repair. Again it could have worked, could have been throwing my lead away.
3. My ups were late, that is true, for a long time i thought i could do more with mutas, i realized a bit late i needed my meele ups yesterday, but again, i was still in a lead. I did not know he's at 92 supply, i ve seen he doesnt have enough to be agressive, but is in a good defensive position, so i macroed and teched as best as i could.
4. i'm not sure if you watched the rep, i attacked with good upgrades. My ups were going on constantly, once i started them.
5. My units were fully upgraded. I did not nydus drop 2 ultras, i nydused his main and his new main expo 2-3 times each with cracklings and ultras, not two, there was a time when i sent my entire army trough the nydus.
About the viking opening, what you say, it would have been good then, but if i was doing that, you erally think he would have played the same? Dont be silly please.
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Nobody told you to go all-in. Making 20 zerglings and killing a Terran that takes 2 expos super fast with NO defense is not "all-in".
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On February 17 2011 19:18 Scila wrote:
Nobody told you to go all-in. Making 20 zerglings and killing a Terran that takes 2 expos super fast with NO defense is not "all-in".
it was said i should have went allin, dont say it wasnt, read back. When he tried to took that super fast third i took it out with speedlings. I dont remember any other time where he had no means to defend 20 speedlings, when was this time exactly in your opinion?
and it's way beside the point.
My question was, is there a way to brake terran from 6 base while he's trurtling on 4 and aiming to take his 5th and 6th. I refuse to believe the only way is to kill him off before that. If one race autowins in lategame, the game is terribly broken, and i dont want to believe that.
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On February 17 2011 19:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
My question was, is there a way to brake terran from 6 base while he's trurtling on 4 and aiming to take his 5th and 6th. I refuse to believe the only way is to kill him off before that. If one race autowins in lategame, the game is terribly broken, and i dont want to believe that.
Yes, with brood lords.
But, it's hard because of vikings.
The only way to kill off a turtling Terran without mass suicide is brood lords. They are the only real ranged damage dealer zerg have.
Problem is that they are hard to use because of vikings.
But that's the only thing that really break a terran, because of planetary and repair.
Coupled with infestors (to lock down vikings so they can't retreat) and corruptors, it can work. It's really hard to make work though.
Thors do very little damage to armored air, so brood lords and corruptors are vulnerable to vikings and marines basically.
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@ DjayEl
I appreciate you trying to give feedback, but you see things in black and white, and wrongly many times.
1. For the 100th time. I did not want to go allin even if i could have won with it. I refuse to believe this is the correct, screw that, that this is the only way of winning vs terran. I think we can all agree i piled up a horrendous lead instead of winning right ahead.
2. a few tanks, thors and PFs are more then enough to hold off stuff thrown at it. If you watched the rep you could ahve noticed he was not afraid to use all his scvs for repair and even calling down mules to repair. Again it could have worked, could have been throwing my lead away.
3. My ups were late, that is true, for a long time i thought i could do more with mutas, i realized a bit late i needed my meele ups yesterday, but again, i was still in a lead. I did not know he's at 92 supply, i ve seen he doesnt have enough to be agressive, but is in a good defensive position, so i macroed and teched as best as i could.
4. i'm not sure if you watched the rep, i attacked with good upgrades. My ups were going on constantly, once i started them.
5. My units were fully upgraded. I did not nydus drop 2 ultras, i nydused his main and his new main expo 2-3 times each with cracklings and ultras, not two, there was a time when i sent my entire army trough the nydus.
About the viking opening, what you say, it would have been good then, but if i was doing that, you erally think he would have played the same? Dont be silly please.
1. I am sorry to insist, but I think this a big misunderstanding of yours. You constatnly insist of "not all in" and that you are still "in the lead". In the lead of what ? Actually you were not in the lead of anything. The games does not consist of building SCV/drones as fast as you can with do defensive structures at all, and just compare ressources at 20 minutes and say "hey ! I got more than you ! I win ! Lets rematch". I'm amazed you can't get that. Players play macro to be safe, if you plays macro no matter what and your oppenents know, he will cheat. Like bronze players who say : "hey ! lets no rush until 15min, okay ?". You dont want to kill him outrigh. Good, so If he made ONLY scvs and Command Centers for 30 mintues, THEN started to make units, you would not have done anything to him beside "standard", "good mannered pollitically correct" muta harass at 10 with lil speedling poke from times to times ?
I think you dont want to play the actual game, but a game by your own standards, like macro because its cute, look pro and lead to more interested games. I agree with this 100%, but efficiently-wise the only reason one must go macro instead of all in is safety, because dfensive capabilities of his opp makes all in too much of a gamble, so they wait until opp make a bad move to sneak in.
But what if your opp makes bad move and you did not punish ? If he just knows attack xont come, sure he will not make bunkers, defensive structure, will be building his army much slowly and have a better eco, and you will have no way to win at all in the late game. Why did you opp even made PFs ? Mules would have helped him a lot ! Would have you run in glings if there were no PFs ? Or would you macro no matter what ?
I'm not talking about going all in like, you know really all in, blindly and with no way to recover from. Just test him with 20 glings if you scout ne defenses, see what you do, and if he manage to push you back, do some damage and go back macroing.
2) Everything that was not in the range of PFs was in danger of being ovverrun by constant waves of upgraded speedlings, and not even that much of them. Trading minerals agaist his gas heavy mech is a great economical move at this stage of the game. What do you mean by throwing you r lead away ? You got no lead at all ! Maybe you would have with good trades, but having more stuff into the banks is by no means a lead. Unused money is inexistant money. You must manage your game time so you can spend the money you gather in order to make the best use of it.
3) Again this lead thing.... If you didn know he was on 92 supply, that mean you were scouting bad, period. You did not macroed as well as you could. Macro does not mean pressing v with queens, then s and ddddddddddddd as much as you possibly can. It means making good investments that maximize your economy WHILE being able to delay opp, trade ressources, build up an invincible position. Again, its not about the biggest drone count. Okay, it may be until diamond league, but above you need more game sense.
4-5) You attacked WAY to late. You like to put enphasis on how good is you macro. Again, good macro would be 200/200 upgraded ultra ling at 15-16 min mark if upressured, then attack, remax if needed, take the map, etc. Ofc your units where upgraded 40 min in the game, who cares ?
About viking oppening : of course he would not have played the same, thats exactly my point : you must react to what to see to be able to set up threats yourself and force your opponent to react and not to turtle, or at least invest much more money into early defense. Even if your goal is to macro as hard as you can, just put in your opp mind that you *COULD* be dangerous at any time, that's the way a good zerg should play at high level, imho.
EDIT : just saw your last post : you right, a race should not be able to win in the late game no matter what, and no race would have to kill another one early on in order to survive. BUT you need to FORCE MONEY into defensive structures, not allowing him to be too much greedy. What if you took 3 hatches before pool and got killed ? Would argue it was a silly 2 rax all in ? Of course it would be, and the Terran would have been right for killing you for such a bad play. If he plays good, there is no reason you all in him. I told you to do that so the next time you play against him, he would make mode defenses, making your game way easier. thats called pressure. You must threat him. What if you pressure and scout NO DEFENSE AT ALL ? Like you know 100% you would kill him right know if you can ? Of course you will do that. Thats what I mean by all in, like when you play as safe as possible, and the second you are sure 100% he has lost, you kill him for punishing bad play. Only zerg can do such all in all way long during the game, some call it "the good moment to attack", but when you do your remax thing and never stop attacking thats exactly what you do. If your opp plays good it occurs late, if he plays bad he deserves to dies earlier otherwise his "bad play" can give him an utterly good and unbalanced advantage once the window of vulnerability closes and he can make returns on his greedy investments. And if you allow him to play unsafely, you deserve to loose.
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On February 17 2011 19:38 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +@ DjayEl
I appreciate you trying to give feedback, but you see things in black and white, and wrongly many times.
1. For the 100th time. I did not want to go allin even if i could have won with it. I refuse to believe this is the correct, screw that, that this is the only way of winning vs terran. I think we can all agree i piled up a horrendous lead instead of winning right ahead.
2. a few tanks, thors and PFs are more then enough to hold off stuff thrown at it. If you watched the rep you could ahve noticed he was not afraid to use all his scvs for repair and even calling down mules to repair. Again it could have worked, could have been throwing my lead away.
3. My ups were late, that is true, for a long time i thought i could do more with mutas, i realized a bit late i needed my meele ups yesterday, but again, i was still in a lead. I did not know he's at 92 supply, i ve seen he doesnt have enough to be agressive, but is in a good defensive position, so i macroed and teched as best as i could.
4. i'm not sure if you watched the rep, i attacked with good upgrades. My ups were going on constantly, once i started them.
5. My units were fully upgraded. I did not nydus drop 2 ultras, i nydused his main and his new main expo 2-3 times each with cracklings and ultras, not two, there was a time when i sent my entire army trough the nydus.
About the viking opening, what you say, it would have been good then, but if i was doing that, you erally think he would have played the same? Dont be silly please. 1. I am sorry to insist, but I think this a big misunderstanding of yours. You constatnly insist of "not all in" and that you are still "in the lead". In the lead of what ? Actually you were not in the lead of anything. The games does not consist of building SCV/drones as fast as you can with do defensive structures at all, and just compare ressources at 20 minutes and say "hey ! I got more than you ! I win ! Lets rematch". I'm amazed you can't get that. Players play macro to be safe, if you plays macro no matter what and your oppenents know, he will cheat. Like bronze players who say : "hey ! lets no rush until 15min, okay ?". You dont want to kill him outrigh. Good, so If he made ONLY scvs and Command Centers for 30 mintues, THEN started to make units, you would not have done anything to him beside "standard", "good mannered pollitically correct" muta harass at 10 with lil speedling poke from times to times ? I think you dont want to play the actual game, but a game by your own standards, like macro because its cute, look pro and lead to more interested games. I agree with this 100%, but efficiently-wise the only reason one must go macro instead of all in is safety, because dfensive capabilities of his opp makes all in too much of a gamble, so they wait until opp make a bad move to sneak in. But what if your opp makes bad move and you did not punish ? If he just knows attack xont come, sure he will not make bunkers, defensive structure, will be building his army much slowly and have a better eco, and you will have no way to win at all in the late game. Why did you opp even made PFs ? Mules would have helped him a lot ! Would have you run in glings if there were no PFs ? Or would you macro no matter what ? I'm not talking about going all in like, you know really all in, blindly and with no way to recover from. Just test him with 20 glings if you scout ne defenses, see what you do, and if he manage to push you back, do some damage and go back macroing. 2) Everything that was not in the range of PFs was in danger of being ovverrun by constant waves of upgraded speedlings, and not even that much of them. Trading minerals agaist his gas heavy mech is a great economical move at this stage of the game. What do you mean by throwing you r lead away ? You got no lead at all ! Maybe you would have with good trades, but having more stuff into the banks is by no means a lead. Unused money is inexistant money. You must manage your game time so you can spend the money you gather in order to make the best use of it. 3) Again this lead thing.... If you didn know he was on 92 supply, that mean you were scouting bad, period. You did not macroed as well as you could. Macro does not mean pressing v with queens, then s and ddddddddddddd as much as you possibly can. It means making good investments that maximize your economy WHILE being able to delay opp, trade ressources, build up an invincible position. Again, its not about the biggest drone count. Okay, it may be until diamond league, but above you need more game sense. 4-5) You attacked WAY to late. You like to put enphasis on how good is you macro. Again, good macro would be 200/200 upgraded ultra ling at 15-16 min mark if upressured, then attack, remax if needed, take the map, etc. Ofc your units where upgraded 40 min in the game, who cares ? About viking oppening : of course he would not have played the same, thats exactly my point : you must react to what to see to be able to set up threats yourself and force your opponent to react and not to turtle, or at least invest much more money into early defense. Even if your goal is to macro as hard as you can, just put in your opp mind that you *COULD* be dangerous at any time, that's the way a good zerg should play at high level, imho.
i'm not sure anymore if you are serious or trolling. First i believed it's serious, but i have doubts now.
Everything which was not in range of PFs were undefended, that leaves, what, about half of the map, my half.
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I'm not talking about 30 minute mark, but at 20 min when he got 92 supplies and 2 PFs and basically NOTHING consistant enough beside that !
You really cant undestant what I say ? I spend 2 hours to watch you rep, make good advice, and all you can say is that I am trolling ?
You said you need advice from Morrow and Zelniq, etc., do you really mean what you say ? How can you be so arrogant ? Why are you posting there so ? Just PM those guys.
I am a crappy high diamond player and I am able to point every of your mistakes. All that I said is right, cant just a renowed Zerg player come here and tell him this ? This is becoming a joke.
Do you want me to send replays of mine beating exactly the same strat with what I said ? Or maybe I am too crappy of a player for you to spend your precious time learning something good from me ?
I think I will just stop losing my time there.
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On February 17 2011 20:01 DjayEl wrote:
I'm not talking about 30 minute mark, but at 20 min when he got 92 supplies and 2 PFs and basically NOTHING consistant enough beside that !
You really cant undestant what I say ? I spend 2 hours to watch you rep, make good advice, and all you can say is that I am trolling ?
You said you need advice from Morrow and Zelniq, etc., do you really mean what you say ? How can you be so arrogant ? Why are you posting there so ? Just PM those guys.
I am a crappy high diamond player and I am able to point every of your mistakes. All that I said is right, cant just a renowed Zerg player come here and tell him this ? This is becoming a joke.
Do you want me to send replays of mine beating exactly the same strat with what I said ? Or maybe I am too crappy of a player for you to spend your precious time learning something good from me ?
I think I will just stop losing my time there.
i said it would be very nice if those guys would answe, BUT i cant expect them to do so.
As i stated in my first response, i'm glad you are trying to give feedback, but i repedately said i m satisfied with the position i got myself into, and you are constantly stressing the idea i should have went and kill him off and i scouted poorly. From what i could scout was that i can focus more on eco and tech, i canot count how many units he has he got turrets all over the place. I would have liked people giving suggestion past the 25th minute mark. And from that point your advices are not very helpful, as the omnipresense of staticdefence makes lings useless, among other things. You said my ups were late, that's a good observation, and i agreed upon it, but i still believe this wasnt or at least should not have been game changing at that point.
If you have reps at beating this kind of thing done properly, please do so, im sure you could kill off greedy terrans with lots of speedlings, not intrested in that. Half map vs Half map, go ahead, post those, regardless of that not being high master level.
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200/200 army and larvae and money for another 3-4 of those, just go suicide 3-4 armies into his, it's not all in when you can remax before he can unsiege to come after you - outside of his PF wall protection as a bonus for you.
If you had 2 worms popped why didn't you send everything you had in those, crippling production/supply limit for a bit while you can instantly recreate (ok 1 minute but it takes him more than that to reinforce/rebuild supply). Then send another wave and another. I really don't think that when people say keep your minerals low they mean just at the start of the game. Bank enough for your next switch, decide where to attack and waste 130 or so supply, rebuild, decide again, go back in. As long as you manage to cripple his production/supply by like 20-30%, every new attack will do more damage, will hit harder and will just slowly kill him.
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From what i could scout was that i can focus more on eco and tech
Okay, macro and teck, uh ?
Okay I am providing you with a replay. Since you didnt not want to have any advice before 25 minute mark, I had hard time finding one of my ZvMech were I was late enough not to be maxed at 16-18, fortunately I found one, but I'm still sorry because I could not go as far as 25 minutes.
Actually in this game I played quite bad, anyway the game ending situation happens at 20th minute mark, which should be enough for my demonstration.
Here is the file : files.me.com/jeanlucmetz/018jr7
I dont care my opp didnt do exactly the same thing as yours, or anything different, because we are speaking of expanding Terran turtling builds and almost no harass of any sort occured form T in both games (I got some minor harassment, you undergone some 2 hellion poke as well, it does not count for real pressure, I mean it did not really impact your macro nor mine in theses games. Basically, we both did whatever we wanted during 20 minutes or so because these were similar situations were we both could predict that Terran won't move out until late).
I dont want to comment on my play (bad or not), only to open the army tab and go straight to the 20th minute mark.
When you are at 20 minutes, stop completely the replay. Please note my food count, what units I have and what is the food count of my opponent. Please click on a zergling or and ultra and see what are their upgrades.
Then, go back to your replay at 20th minute mark and press army tab. At this time your opponent had exactly 2 PFs, and a 92 food count. Check your upgrades as well.
Now imagine my army (the one I got at 18-20 minutes), with its upgrades, walking over the same exact army your opponent had at the exact same time. If needed, do this in the unit tester. You can even think of the most horrendous manner of engagement, like a big choke, being shot by a PF in the meantime, or any bad positionning you can think of (lets assume you opp had incredible positionning, which he obviously had not, but lets assume it).
Now please, be open minded, and sincerely tell me if you think there is a single, slightest possibility for your opponent not to be totally overrun as well as getting his PFs crushed in the same time.
Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance. I just want you to watch the two reps at the 20th minute mark because 20 minutes are a reasonable time when you can start thinking about doing some huge attack, even if we are talking about 2 masters playing a safe, macro game.
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@Geo.Rion
First of all, just calm down because you're right: a TONS of comments to your thread are PURE trolls.
The fact is that, as you said, you had the lead, clearly, obviously, you had more expos, map control, tech, upgrades, etc ... in SC1 the game was just over at 15 min mark or something.
The problem is that, it's NOT SC1, it's SC2, a game which lack of "finish him" combos. As a Zerg you don't have any crazy BUT expansive combination of units which just destroy anything and allow you to end the game as soon as you have a decent macro advantage (as you had).
Your clause analysis is fine: you've just tried anything, and even if there are good counters to that camping Terran, those are NOT cost efficient AT ALL. You will just lose a tons of units/resources to kill some thors, maybe a PF or 2, then what? Nothing, he just rebuild and HE now has the advantage. Going for Broodlords would have been the same: a HUGE investment of min/gas so he can switch easily to Viks and blast your army. Same for infestors, was totally useless in that situation.
What is so crazy is that i'm pretty sure of what was going on in your head at the mid-game mark, you were like: "Ok he's camping, i should care for the counter but also be agressive so he does not expand that much, i'm going to avoid frontal attack and drop/nydus, etc ..." which was the right thing to do.
So, even having the macro advantage (more bases), the micro advantage (you had more apms) and the knowledge advantage (you were expecting that kind of play), you just couldn't do anything.
This is totally stupid. But as usual, some people will come here and say that: "the game is too young", "let's wait some new strategies from pro", "you should have ...", "why no Broodlords, or infestors, or mass overseers", but NOONE will give you the unstoppable combo you should be able to use with 10k/5k resources, because it just does not exist.
To beat a gay strategy, you need a gay strategy: i would have used mass creep, then mass spines/spores attack (everywhere on the map), and mass Broodlords/hydras harass. Absurd (you have to play passive while having the lead) but more efficient than sacrificing all your units with a classic attack, whatever (useless) units you have.
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This game is not balanced around the late late late game scenario. It takes into consideration both sides macro up while trading army in the process. Terran and Toss units are just more cost (& food) efficient late game. Adding to the fact that both terran and toss has better static defences, at the same time using structures to modify the terrain to their own advantages (more chokes).
If you really want an answer to when your situation really occurs, my best bet would be spending all your resources on 50-60 magic boxed mutas. Vikings and thors anti air capabilities are pitiful and air units solve your concave issues.
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On February 17 2011 20:40 DjayEl wrote:Okay, macro and teck, uh ? Okay I am providing you with a replay. Since you didnt not want to have any advice before 25 minute mark, I had hard time finding one of my ZvMech were I was late enough not to be maxed at 16-18, fortunately I found one, but I'm still sorry because I could not go as far as 25 minutes. Actually in this game I played quite bad, anyway the game ending situation happens at 20th minute mark, which should be enough for my demonstration. Here is the file : files.me.com/jeanlucmetz/018jr7 I dont care my opp didnt do exactly the same thing as yours, or anything different, because we are speaking of expanding Terran turtling builds and almost no harass of any sort occured form T in both games (I got some minor harassment, you undergone some 2 hellion poke as well, it does not count for real pressure, I mean it did not really impact your macro nor mine in theses games. Basically, we both did whatever we wanted during 20 minutes or so because these were similar situations were we both could predict that Terran won't move out until late). I dont want to comment on my play (bad or not), only to open the army tab and go straight to the 20th minute mark. When you are at 20 minutes, stop completely the replay. Please note my food count, what units I have and what is the food count of my opponent. Please click on a zergling or and ultra and see what are their upgrades. Then, go back to your replay at 20th minute mark and press army tab. At this time your opponent had exactly 2 PFs, and a 92 food count. Check your upgrades as well. Now imagine my army (the one I got at 18-20 minutes), with its upgrades, walking over the same exact army your opponent had at the exact same time. If needed, do this in the unit tester. You can even think of the most horrendous manner of engagement, like a big choke, being shot by a PF in the meantime, or any bad positionning you can think of (lets assume you opp had incredible positionning, which he obviously had not, but lets assume it). Now please, be open minded, and sincerely tell me if you think there is a single, slightest possibility for your opponent not to be totally overrun as well as getting his PFs crushed in the same time. Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance. I just want you to watch the two reps at the 20th minute mark because 20 minutes are a reasonable time when you can start thinking about doing some huge attack, even if we are talking about 2 masters playing a safe, macro game.
well thank you for posting that, i watched it and it is perfectly irrelevant. He had 0 PFs in your way as well as he put his army out there and waited till you just surround it and kill it.
You had nice upgrades, which is cool, but i couldnt possibly start my upgrades as early as you did, as i needed all my gas from 3 base on dealing with his mass viking, maintaining mapcontrol and air supperiority.
"Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance."
thank, you that's what you should have wrote down to begin with, i'm looking for solutions at that stage, if you dont know any, thank you for watching it, and end of story. I personally never said it is a matter of balance, i stated i felt helpless.
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As a Zerg you don't have any crazy BUT expansive combination of units which just destroy anything and allow you to end the game as soon as you have a decent macro advantage (as you had).
YES YOU HAVE ! Please be merciful, watch my replay... I think i'm gonna cry :D
Ultra / banes RAAAPE everything Terran has, period. Ofc if you wait the game for 30+ minutes he will ust build 20 PF and you're done, but we are not speaking about late game anymore ! 15-20 minutes IS late game, anything else is VERY late game and nobody should wait until more that 25 minutes to play then, or begin upgrades at 20 mn ! If a game goes in this stage its because players started trading armies way before and because the games keeps going on a even state.
NO pro player never ever did nothing until 25min or maybe for joking, trading begin at 15mn maximum. The game is balanced because of timings, if you throw away all timings with so much game time that every timing become irrelevant, of course the game is not "balanced" but its not the way its supposed to be.
3/3 ultra bane is so powerfuls its insane, and the reason its powerful is you can get them SO FAST if you just open standard muta ling bling, then cut the mutas and expand as soon as you notice turtling. Its transitions so good its just insane, I never loose to any T turtling with that unless they manage to put insane harassement/pressure or try a desperate push before game hits 16 minutes. There is no way to wait more till you are 3/3 and have 5+ bases.
Of course if he builds 50 PFs his army is not 200/200 anymore as he have lot of "static units" that does count for food, but who waits that long ??
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Wow, that was certainly an interesting game to watch! Of course, I think there were early-midgame timings which could have won you the game, but it appears that you both were looking to play the long macro game.
So, I think the key timing is before your opponent splits the map and fortifies it with PFs and turrets. Before that, drops and nydus play is still possible. I thought it was pretty cool when you were doing the nydus worms one after another on opposite sides of the map. However, a few things you could do to make it even more effective considering you had so much money:
1. multiple nydus worms: so multiple units can exit at once
2. mass stationary defences: you had 12k minerals and 100+ drones, instead of running excess drones into the tank line, why no make them into spores and spines?
3. infestors: let's say you nydus into one end of his map, and out come your ultras, hydras, etc. He pull his mass thors to deal with it. If he pulls all of his thors, you do a bit of damage, then run away and exit out the nydus on the other side of his map. If he pulls just a few thors, you NP 5-6 of them and your army will crush it. This way, he has to make a judgement each time you make an attack like that.
4. Brood lords: yes, I understand he has vikings, which are extremely good at countering brood lords. However, with infestors, you can lock vikings down if he chases too far. If you made a lot of spore crawlers with your excess drones, and have excess queens not needed for larvae, you might even be able to do a slow broodlord/spore crawler push down the middle. You can also fly a few groups of 2-3 corruptors to random spots on the map, morph them into brood lords and just let your opponent deal with them. This puts a tax on his attention, and in the meantime you can do your main attack. The best thing about broodlords is that when you engage tank lines, each shot causes a tank to blow up from friendly fire. Alternatively, infested terrans thrown from infestors can have the same effect (but it costs mana).
Ultimately, I think throwing mass ultras was not the solution, considering the thor+tank heavy composition, plus the PFs.
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EPT
