EPTInstead of doing the fancy Nydus stuff you should just have attacked into him with bane- and cracklings. I also noticed that you could also have started your upgrades sooner. He was turtled up, but 2-3-400 worth of supply would have broken him, which you easily could have done.
[H] Terran which never attacks. What can i do? - Page 2
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loladin
Norway184 Posts
Instead of doing the fancy Nydus stuff you should just have attacked into him with bane- and cracklings. I also noticed that you could also have started your upgrades sooner. He was turtled up, but 2-3-400 worth of supply would have broken him, which you easily could have done. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote: OK, i rarely ever seek help here, but i'm desperate. Right now im about 3470 points in masters, playing Zerg. here's the game. He opens up mass vikings on Metalo, i know, it's strange, believe me, this guy can make it happen, i lost to it before, as well as played against mass viking build of Strelok, so please dont start that it's a nub BO. I am only zerg 2700 masters (EU), so take this with a grain of salt as you are clearly the better player. To me, it looked like you made a poor decision around 8 minutes, and didn't start trying to change it untill 20 minutes (in game time). What I am going for is: - You scouted 1 barrack, 1 factory with tech lab, 2 reactor starports. - You knew he had hellions out (eventually). And later on tanks. Why didn't you assume he was going for heavy mech & air play? Especially after seeing vikings and not medivacs (which to me would have suggested he switched it around later on and built barracks on the reactors). Your choice after this was: Going for ling sling banelings. Which he counters very very well, especially once he gets thors out (which was later than I thought, but still in time). His choices seemed perfect to counter your style, whereas when I look at the unit counts at 9 - 20 minutes and the supplies, I see nothing roaches, or roach hydro, wouldn't have owned. Completely. Granted, if you switched, he may have switched too - but note the supply difference. If you know that kind of style is coming, my advice would be to go for roach, with some hydra's (protecting overlords), and by all costs, trade army continously and suicide to kill planetary's. His supply is real low until after 20 minutes, when he have 4 bases. Some of that is because you do a great job of killing off his vikings, but some of it is also because he is cutting all corners because he assumes you won't try to all in your whole army to bust his main (which would have worked - in my opinion). Also: you are maxed at 20 minutes. He has 100 supply (a bit below). At 27 minutes, he is basically maxed. You haven't attacked during those minutes, because you have teched and switched army. But if you know he is not going to attack - or you suspect it - keep trading armies. He is basically only building planetary, vikings, thors, tanks and turrets. It's worth nearly anything for you to keep him from maxing on that unit composition + static defenses. This may seem overly critical, it's not meant to be. If this didn't help at all, feel free to ignore. | ||
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
how pro you had to be playing toss. Dude, it's called PROtoss for a reason. So ignorant. | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
Abuse the mech immobility. if he pull his thors and marines to defend send in a second mutas group to kill his tanks. if you have enough mutas you can sneak in and kill atank in one volley even if marines are standing right next to them. imagine what you can do when his forces are spread thin. try dropping, nydusing and muta harassing at the same time. its actually much easier to execute than to defend. and if you're on 6 base you really shouldnt have trouble remaxing. | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
Your play was far from perfect - I think that's been pointed out enough in the thread. Although you managed to bounce back from a terrible opening ( why would you lose 3 queens to a non-threat force?? - stupid! ) You had 100 supply over him at one point. Uhm?? A standard roach rush build would demolish this in two shakes of a queen's tale. You went mass mutas - which raped the vikings as expected, but then you run your wonderful and super expensive army over thors....????!? Terran had almost no defense - 3 tanks... It's hard to believe you are a 3k+ master if you can't easily pick this replay apart and see you could have raped and pillaged so many times. Edit: PF are very easy to get rid of if you are going banelings - I've seen plenty of pro players run 10+ banelings into a PF with ease. | ||
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Enyalus
United States135 Posts
Let's see - you had like 6+k minerals for a ridiculous amount of time, so you can afford to get a little crazy. And you need to bust his position. Recommendation? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187434 Ultra/Baneling. Try it out next time maybe? You said he's your teammate, right? Tell him to be passive like that again while you try another strategy to bust that.  I mean, it works against 3000 level master Terrans on the NA server. Would be awesome to see your results with it. | ||
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PepperoniPiZZa
Sierra Leone1660 Posts
Also, start trading armys when you max out while being ahead in economy. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
1.Use mutaharass, drop and nyduses. Well, you didnt watch the game, i used all of those and many times. Nydus was late, taht might be the case, i'm not sure. 2. Why did i go muta vs a seemingly mech build. This guy is insane, he can keep going mass air, switch to bio or to mech, he has more builds and transitions then half of the ladder terrans i played together. So assuming he gonna go mech because he has some hellions, not a safe choise. 3. I hit 10k quickly, yes, i wanted to wait for maxed upgrades, and sacrificed drones for even more stuff. I wanted to attack with 3/3 ultra bane and some hydras, as i thought this is the costliest army i can get out. 4. BLs and infestors. BLs, he had vikings always and 2 starpots with reactors. I'm not confident going against that with BLs tbh... infestors, neural parasite, they have so high attack priority whnever they try to attack into mech with your army they will die. He has lines of siegetanks, on cliff siegtanks, several PFs and tons of thors, the chance that i can NP 6-7 thors safely is below minimal in my opinion. I have never had much success with NP, even if the T werent in such a defensive position. 5. Wait for him to attack. Well, he wont, till he s totally established then he just slowpushes forward or go for 1 punch with his 3/3. Honestly, being up 2 base and with my full tech available, i didnt feel like the best choise is to wait till he gets every base he can. 6. more hatches. I had 7 hatches, which sometimes were maxed on larvae. Enough said I've killed some of his production, i've killed many supplies, i menaged to kill his new exp a couple of times, but he just kept on going slowly and surely and i still fel helpless about it On February 17 2011 07:11 Enyalus wrote:Ultra/Baneling. Try it out next time maybe? i'm not sure if you noticed my attack with ~15 ultras and ~60 banes with soe support, with 3/3 upgrades On February 17 2011 07:14 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: This guy looks super breakable between the 13 and 20 minute mark, I didn't watch any further. Also, start trading armys when you max out while being ahead in economy. Well thank you, i was precisely asking for ideas after that point, btw i'm not sure what do you mean by trading armies, as i could have traded army for PFs turrets and maybe a couple of units, that's why i've been nydusing, and trying to "trade" too when i had my upgrades at full. | ||
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Johnranger-123
United Kingdom341 Posts
He has an expo up without contest and at 7 mins he has two hellions as his army and two starports. I dont see why you didnt keep poking with lings, you prob could've killed a couple of scvs before the hellion came out with just two lings Ok at 13 mins and a few pokes with mutas to see whats up is good, and your way ahead right now by 40 food I dont see how you could lose it without some sort of huge mess up Im looking at his nat and he has 3 tanks, if you jsut went pure roach from now till about a min later you would win or atleast do some heavy damage Im at 16 mins and still you could just mass up raoches no scratch that units of any kind and a move these 3 tanks. at 17 minsish giving away those mutas was baaaad watch out for clumping when you attack, but still you are ahead by 50 food. ok you just now started upgrading, you had so much money for a long period of time why dont you have 3 evo chambers upgrading instead of just upgrading mutas you have the money I can see that you do, also 119 drones is too many your 200/200 army will be too small, which you should have by now btw, he also still has 4 tanks and a couple of thors... ok hes catching up at 25 mins in food count, but only because you let him, why havent you gone though 20 armies at this point? Again you have the money too, also make more hatches so you can remax instantly, again you have the money just spend it damn it xD ok Im 30 mins in and that nydus was good, but why arent you doing 3 at the same time? mech armies are strongest together you just half abusing its mobility, drops in the main nydus worms near the 3rd etc etc. abusing mobility isnt attack once every 5 mins its attack constantly all the time. Although I do like that you stopped his 4th and 5th from going up. Im at 37 mins and this is good that your dropping after you rammed your head into those PF's. although you should could and must do this earlier and more. You where way ahead and then you where like "oh now we are both 200/200 my advantage is gone so Im gonna start dropping now" I feel as if Im repeating myself here but you get the point, Im not even gonna bother to watch how you lost. wall of text lol ^^ sorry if I sounded a bit mean but you could've won that so easy but you just thought of the things you needed to do too late, when its mech you should just instantly be thinking of ways to abuse the mobility. Just use your midgame advantage its as simple as not letting him get to the point where he cannot be penitrated(lol) Ok just read your post above I think your missing the point you could've started upgrades earlier so you didnt need to wait for them, even then that wouldn't have matter, and you could've killed him 10 times over if you didnt just sit back and let him get is super impossible to beat army. | ||
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Moody
United States750 Posts
On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote: EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. You sir, are the definition of a crying zerg player and your nonsense is not welcome or appreciated. You clearly point out things that cause you to lose games, but then instead of fixing those you yell imbalance. | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
just muta harass isnt gonan do much, but if you drop and nydus him AT THE SAME TIME, he will be very confused. Also as a zerg you have the luxury of being able to tech switch very fast. if you have so much cash in the bank, check ou his unit composition, then use a protion of your army that you know will suck against that, sacrafice it and remax with a better composition. if he's tech switching faster than you then there is something very wrong about the way you play zerg Its very possible you simply got ouplayed. the way you describe slow pushing you make it sound easy. it's not. its very difficult to defend your tanks from being killed by mutas. and if you're half way across the map with your army and you attack his base he has to pull back and start the push again. again, abuse his immobilitly | ||
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Morik
65 Posts
Mass up queens, get 80ish food in banelings (so 160 or so banelings), 3-5 ultras (18-30 more food), and the rest queens (10-20 queens). Take that ball and sweep into his bases. Ultras soak the damage while your queens heal them, and the banelings can then get to their targets (such as a planetary fortress, or masses of mech or bio). The ultras should survive for the most part, so just keep pumping lings once you push out, and morph more banelings, and keep on sweeping through. | ||
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Mr. Enchilada
United States274 Posts
On February 17 2011 07:24 Moody wrote: You sir, are the definition of a crying zerg player and your nonsense is not welcome or appreciated. You clearly point out things that cause you to lose games, but then instead of fixing those you yell imbalance. Let me ask you something, do you play Zerg? And I can't believe I have to restate this over and over. IF ONE RACE HAS TO PLAY "BETTER" (more apm better macro etc.) THEN THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED. Obviously I know that blizzard won't change anything, so if we want to yell imbalance, then who gives a flying mutalisks glave worm hole. | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
so much for better macro and higher APM, he beats just because hes better at making decisions than i am. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On February 17 2011 07:47 Mr. Enchilada wrote: Let me ask you something, do you play Zerg? And I can't believe I have to restate this over and over. IF ONE RACE HAS TO PLAY "BETTER" (more apm better macro etc.) THEN THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED. Obviously I know that blizzard won't change anything, so if we want to yell imbalance, then who gives a flying mutalisks glave worm hole. If you want to get somewhere, you need to get this attitude out of your head first. If youre looking for excuses and you see problems in racial balance instead of in your own play, this game will only cause you headaches. | ||
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Mr. Enchilada
United States274 Posts
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Enyalus
United States135 Posts
On February 17 2011 07:22 Geo.Rion wrote: i'm not sure if you noticed my attack with ~15 ultras and ~60 banes with soe support, with 3/3 upgrades Ah, I feel stupid. The replay messed up at 28:33, and I got it mixed up with the 48:33 replay time. But they're doing shit to B.net, at least on the NA server. So maybe that's what happened. And I saw you had Ultras and banelings, so I suggested what I did. Apologies. The Ultra/Bling attack you did around 33 min worked great. You killed 3 PFs and most of his Thors. But then I think you remaxed on Ultras and Hydras. If you look at the map around 34 minutes, nothing is defending his natural and main base - and those are the only bases with his production facilities in them. He has a bunch of tanks sitting at the 3 o'clock main, and a few Thors left over near his gold behind his PF wall. You had 3/3 cracklings at that point and were 200 supply to his 148. If you had remaxed on cracklings and not Ultra/Hydra, I think you could have crippled him tremendously. You actually did what I'm talking about around the 41 minute mark, and it was pretty successful. But you had lost a ton of ultras up to that point and your armies were closer in size. What do you think about that assessment? | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
If you are confident he would have beaten that, well - I have no other advice to offer. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
ultra-queen is not viable vs terran mech, it might be vs P, not vs mech 1. There are lots of you suggesting i could have dont thing better in midgame, that i could have won probably. I know. But the way i learnt to play this game is to captialize with macro and tech on your opponent not rallying everything at his main. I'd hate to find out this is simply not true. My problem precisely is that even though i was in a very good position he just stayed passive as it gets and came back. 2. Again lots suggesting counters and immobility, i ve been doing that the whole game long. Probably i could have sent wawes of lings towards his production earlier, but as you've seen the later attacks didnt do as much demage, and even if i menage to break in there earlier, facts can be built at the new main or floated there. The supply depos i took out, as many as i could find. 3. I could have used the units better. Obviously. That's beside the point in an eco based rts you cant and shouldnt have to have prefect control, while doing other stuff. 4. People saying i overdroned. I did, and i sacrificed a lot of them when i knew i didnt need them anymore. 5. I've been using some hydras, because i wanted to get rid of his vikings to be able to drop better and maybe get BLs if i see fit, deny floating production buildings and they have a nice dps from back there vs thors anyways. 6. constant army trades. He had a craptone of static defence i couldnt just rally stuff there in hope to kill enough of his crap. Basicly, i know i could have done things some small things better, but let's not neglect the fact i was lightyears ahead after earlymidgame. I'm curious about what to do when this stalemate happens. So far most of you are pointing out some specific elements of the game, while i'm more intrested in what to do when you find yourself in this horrible situation. I'd blame the map normally, but c'mon if Metalo cross pos is borken then what isnt. On February 17 2011 07:51 mustache wrote: zerg isnt harder though. My friend has an average of 60 APM when playing zerg (masters rank 25) and i have an average APM of 100 or higher and play terran. he crushes me every single game. oh yeah he usually has more mins banked than me too so much for better macro and higher APM, he beats just because hes better at making decisions than i am. that's a very specific case. The only zerg who has low apm and had any kind of succes that i know of is Madfrog, and he has not won anything noteworthy. As for terrans, there are quite a few, Sjow and Lucifron are the two obvious picks, who are below 100 apm, and well, everybody is aware of how much they accomplished, or if not there's the TLPD | ||
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PepperoniPiZZa
Sierra Leone1660 Posts
On February 17 2011 07:22 Geo.Rion wrote: Well thank you, i was precisely asking for ideas after that point, btw i'm not sure what do you mean by trading armies, as i could have traded army for PFs turrets and maybe a couple of units, that's why i've been nydusing, and trying to "trade" too when i had my upgrades at full. I didn't mean to be offensive. You should have won when terran was weak, the rest of the game is pointless. If you want to win, everything past 20 minutes should not happen in the way it happened. | ||
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