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On February 17 2011 07:47 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
Let me ask you something, do you play Zerg? And I can't believe I have to restate this over and over. IF ONE RACE HAS TO PLAY "BETTER" (more apm better macro etc.) THEN THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED. Obviously I know that blizzard won't change anything, so if we want to yell imbalance, then who gives a flying mutalisks glave worm hole.
That's your problem. You aren't playing better than your opponents. You make tons and tons of mistakes, and instead of being "oh, I made a mistake better fix it next time!" you are instead "Terran is imba".
There is no race that 1As to victory at high level either. I suggest you either get a hell of a lot better or switch to an easier race (Your words, not anyone elses) and when you fail to get further than you are now, come back and qq some more about how every match up is broken. The simple truth is there are no Zerg only players out there who end up switching and proceed to do a hell of a lot better afterwards. You may feel pretty cheesed when you lose because there was "nothing you could do", but so do terran players who die to a swarm of 20 well micro'd mutas or toss players who lose to a roach rush.
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The first GLARING problem I see is that you made 111 drones. Did you really expect to do any kind of damage with a 90 food army?
11k minerals? 4k gas? I'm at 24:00 and unless you sack some of those drones soon, I don't see you ever winning this.
Other issues:
Banelings ---> Why? You pretty much knew he was going mech.
Upgrades --> 24:00 in and your ground upgrades just finished. With 11k minerals, you shouldn't be getting upgrades this late!
Those 3 things are the biggest issues i see:
too many drones
useless banelings
horrible upgrades
taken individually, these might seem small.... all together, this is a big problem
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On February 17 2011 08:37 Geo.Rion wrote:
some more reactions:
ultra-queen is not viable vs terran mech, it might be vs P, not vs mech
5. I've been using some hydras, because i wanted to get rid of his vikings to be able to drop better and maybe get BLs if i see fit, deny floating production buildings and they have a nice dps from back there vs thors anyways.
ultra-queen + 160 banelings will WRECK terran mech. (Even just 60 banelings will probably wreck everything too). Its not a cost-efficient trade, but if your econ is ahead, its worth it.
Then just remax on banelings or cracklings.
As to the hydras, they can be replaced by the queen's range 7 air attack, which while not quite as strong, is still pretty good. This way you can spend more of your gas morphing banelings.
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On February 17 2011 06:49 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:45 Everlong wrote:On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. I suggest you should switch to Terran, or Protoss. There is no "1a" for Zerg. If you dont like it, you should'nt play Zerg.. If you outexpand, outmacro and outmicro your opponent, there is no way you lose to 1a since your macro means you have more units and your micro means you are not stupid to run into siege tanks. And you should'nt really complain about late game issues as Zerg playing vs Terran. You have your Broodlord/Ultralisk deadly switches, which is kinda similar to 1a if you manage to take your 6 bases where your opponent struggles to take 4th.. THAT is the answer I am saying is (no offense) useless. You don't look at an issue and say "well there isn't a solution so you should cope" No. You find a solution. If you lose a leg, they "make a solution" with a prosthetic, NOT telling you to cope by learning how to balance on one. Stop telling zergs they need to come up with creative ways to solve problems. Instead fix the problem. I don't know how to fix ZvT but a great fix to the death ball is Corrupters being range 9 like viking (notice how colossi aren't imba in PvT?)
You aren't looking for a solution, that's the problem, you just whine about Zerg being underpowered everywhere and nowhere. You don't want to get suggestions for improving your mechanics, you don't want help on timings or unit compositions and you don't want to switch races either. All you want to do is cry about having to play Zerg all day and pretend you'd be leagues higher if you played Protoss or Terran ... and we got bored with that 3 months ago.
Edit:
Watching the replay right now and the first thing that I'm noticing is that you let him get away with FAR too much greed.
It seems like he is taking advantage of knowing your playstyle since he feels comfortable 1 rax expanding whilst teching behind it. He then takes a ridiculously early third at 7:50 whilst going dual reactored Starport and he only has 2 marines and 2 hellions to defend!
Any sort of ling, bling or roach pressure would have rolled him over at this point, but he seems to be sure you're going 2-base spire even though he hasn't scouted it.
You scout he's going dual reactor starport with your ovie, that's a complete give-away of mass vikings since he only had 1 rax. So why would you continue to go mutalisks? Not making air would've made those vikings a useless expenditure, you should really make roaches to keep him honest at this point or expand way more agressively. He's basically doing a pure counter to your build so I'm assuming he already knew what you were going to do.
And even then, your mutalisk did pretty well in killing Vikings until you ran a control group of them into 3 thors 3 Turrets and 6 Vikings and lost all of them. You got remaxed at around 20 minutes and you're floating humongous amounts of resources from that point on, but you don't attack ...
There's no use to being maxed if you're not going to attack and take advantage of your food advantage and instant remax. It really seemed like you weren't comfortable being the agressor. You morphed a bunch of banelings and let them site idle for like 10 minutes ... run the fuckers in! You were maxed while having taken your half of the map while he was at 110 food and 4-base. This is the time where you can afford to suicide into his army with your Ultra-baneling and remax. When he gets equal bases and food to you it's basically GG.
You made some half-hearted attempts at Nydus'ing his bases, but you never ran the majority of your army through them, they were all small task forrces that got taken out by his army costless.
You floated more than 10k minerals and 5k gas for like 10 minutes while he was catching up and I kept asking myself why you wouldn't just go and attack him? Morph half of your drones into spinecrawlers, even 60 drones is too many considering the amounts of money you had saved up. You could lose everything and remax on ultra ling three times basically, but you're not going to win if you're playing into your opponent's race's strengths.
Basically, I think you played a good game, but failed to take advantage of Zerg agression and their ability to remax instantly late-game.
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how does the mass viking opening work? it sounds epic? i can offer no help as im only diamond player, but im very interested in that opening.
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I'm a lowly Platinum with some degree of Zerg play so take what i say as you will.
I'd suggest an infester heavy build. Essentially, they CAN beat most units in the game. Now with this Terran style i presume every base aside the first two are planetary fortresses, a mass of missile turrets around the mineral lines and planetary fortress with siege tanks and supporting thors behind them across the centre of the map by the end game?
If so then i think what you need to do is indeed just infesters really. Attack them with energy rather than units. If you spam a sufficient quantity of infested terrans i think it likely you can overwhelm him eventually, and should he himself move out of his turtle well you have all those infesters and STILL have all that saved larva and resource which otherwise would have been spent.
This seems like the main use for infested terrans is to break the unbreakable. I think every race has issues verses a terran who manages to reach this game stage.
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i faced something similar a few weeks ago but i could punish by going pure roaches and killing the ground forces - vikings are really awful against roaches especially if upgraded and if the terran upgrades vikings he wont have much upgrades on infantry and mech
against a passive terran i would suggest to suicide banelings and take out planetary fortresses whenever its possible; i wouldnt even bother making mutas but just get a few spores and queens to save your overlords
also passive play should enable to to either mass roaches and infestor with np or even tech to ultras and use np - ultras and np on terran mech units are an insane amount of supply so its like one and a half army on your side vs half of the terran
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On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle.
Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.)
If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader).
Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects.
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On February 17 2011 09:29 colanderman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.) If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader). Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects.
but if you've got the same sucess with all three races the conclusion out of this would be that as T/P missing production cycles is less of a disadvantage as missing larva injects
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Not necessarily, maybe he's better at microing with other races. Regardless thats off topic.
I stick by my infester heavy thought. Although there is one other playing on my mind and thats this ultralisk+queens business. It looks solid.
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On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:38 Endorsed wrote:On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. But a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow. I know it sort of comes with the territory as the reactionary race. But here is all my ranting presented in a more coherent way: The other two races can "mess" with zerg with a variety of cheesy ways. They can basically wall off, and it is harder to scout, and usually revolves around sacrificing 100 minerals, and 8 supply capacity. They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Now this WOULD be fine except the other races have unit compositions that are hard to beat. To beat the deathball you just have to do alot more micro and such. Now with the "issues" I just mentioned, they ALSO have to pay more attention to micro and positioning, while still not forgetting about macro (injection and such). While protoss gets to A-move their deathball. Can anyone disagree with THAT?! (not imbalance, just the points I listed)
Why do I keep hearing about this mythical 1A Protoss deathball? All I know is that if I 1A my entire army, my sentries don't forcefield or guardian shield, my templars dont storm. Each unit in my army moves at a different speed and becomes seperated/picked off, and when they do fight together, my stalkers/sentries are tanking for my zealots who can't fight.
When I play in this way, my army gets surrounded, picked off, stimmed, and in short just rolled over. I have to keep constant tabs on my army at all times as Protoss because I have so many abilities I need to use precisely at the beginning of an encounter or risk losing the entire army.
How much micro do you think a roach/hydra army takes? Attack move their army -- try to get a surround if possible, then move onto macroing at your base to quickly remax and roll them over..not too tough. It's not like you have any abilities to use.
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First off high Templar with sentry isn't the stalker colossus death ball. Second i find it easier to deal with the death ball. ZvP is my best matchup. It's terrans ball I have trouble with. AND GODDAMNIT I'm so sick of Terran and protoss' telling me stuff about Zerg. Yeah you lose te occasional p or tvz but you just beat them and dontthink twice. If you don't play te underpowered race then you won't realize it. If you're not a Zerg please don't lecture me about my play. I didn't ask for a Terran or protoss' advice nor do I want it.
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Easiest way to kill a turtling Terran is to simply do a Broodlord -> Ultra switch.
Mass Broodlords with a decent amount of Corruptors to support. This forces the Terran to make a large amount of Vikings or lose the game. After he kills your stuff, hard switch to Ultras. He'll still have too many Vikings out and your Ultras will destroy everything in their path. There is no way for a Terran to keep up with Zerg unit swaps and Zerg production speed at that point in the game.
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The best things about "which race is easiest" discussions:
1) Always, always are off topic.
2) Zergs are always the ones to initiate.
3) Everyone acts as if their own subjective experiences with a race is an objective fact about the race. Not taking into consideration that Blizzard designed the races to play entirely separately to each other, and that each race has it's own playstyle, as well as each player having it's own playstyle.
4) X race is always hardest where X = "the race I play"
Edit: 5) CAPS LOCK IS NECESSARY
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On February 17 2011 09:29 colanderman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.) If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader). Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects.
What I meant was if you bank up minerals you can throw down an extra gateway or two. Sure you can make an extra hatch, but the takes time to buil up larvae which is more MACRO ladies and gentlmen. One extra gateway on a hot key just means you hit w then s one more time NOT checking larvae completion. I am saying keeping up on larvae management and creep spread, harder scouting (no map hacks or scans) and overlord placement makes more macro. Forget whether you think the races (eg units upgrades etc) are imba. It is more work to play Zerg. Positionig is huge. I'm not arguing that units are imba. I just feel in order to keep upbeith players equal to you in terms of rank you need to play far more superior play. Not to mention walling off. Bcuz we can't do that rushes and stuff like 4 gates F us over. If you Protoss and terrans can't see that your head is farther up te ass of your respective race than I thought.
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On February 17 2011 10:02 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 09:29 colanderman wrote:On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.) If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader). Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects. What I meant was if you bank up minerals you can throw down an extra gateway or two. Sure you can make an extra hatch, but the takes time to buil up larvae which is more MACRO ladies and gentlmen. One extra gateway on a hot key just means you hit w then s one more time NOT checking larvae completion. I am saying keeping up on larvae management and creep spread, harder scouting (no map hacks or scans) and overlord placement makes more macro. Forget whether you think the races (eg units upgrades etc) are imba. It is more work to play Zerg. Positionig is huge. I'm not arguing that units are imba. I just feel in order to keep upbeith players equal to you in terms of rank you need to play far more superior play. Not to mention walling off. Bcuz we can't do that rushes and stuff like 4 gates F us over. If you Protoss and terrans can't see that your head is farther up te ass of your respective race than I thought.
Seriously, stop going offtopic in this thread. Make a blog.
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On February 17 2011 06:54 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:46 link0 wrote:
As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite. How come? Could you elaborate a bit? I thought the hard counter is Broodlors -> Ultralisks.. I suppose siege tanks should provide enough firepower to deal with infestors fast enough..
Broodlords usually come too late to stop a well timing mech attack.
Basically, you have an army of mostly Roaches Lings and Infestors. You just A-move into their ball, then you neural parasite all the thors/tanks up front. The tanks in the back won't be able to target the infestors. It REALLY does work well (I've been roflstomped by it many times when I've tried Mech).
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I haven't had a chance to watch the replay. If the problem is the terran turtles with a smaller army but PFs + turrets, and you have a 200/200 army but cant bust in, can you put some of your excess gas into like 10 overseers, shut down his production and trade armies. Or at least lure away some of his vikings while you hit with air units somewhere else.
I know overseers would die pretty quick to vikings as they are armored, but if you keep them moving it might be a worthwhile investment.
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well, i only encoutered mass mech play. What anyway seems to be the problem not the harrassment early, the only thing these vikings do is they limit your map control alot and slows you down because fast mutas are really hard to deal with pure mech. [EdiT: after watching the replay i think that the terran played that far from optimal - the double starport with reactors is slowing him down way too much, he adds his additional factorys way to late so he could only reproduce like 20 supply at once for a very long time]
And TvZ when the Terran is getting mech is kinda similiar to PvZ once the protoss gets maxed it will be very hard for you to win - tanks/thor/hellion/marine balls are the most cost efficient army that a terran can get. I think its even harder to deal with than protoss death balls because you dont really have any real strong counters to the thors - stuff you can do is using infestors to control the thors if you can you should try to mindcontrol from highground and have a banenling/roach ball to support them, if you have a lot more income than him you can also try to bomb his expansions with banelings. Your main goal is to trade armys kill thors and tanks and reeinforce constantly, but this only works before he sieged up at the middle.
I also think getting mutas (~15) and harass him a lot can work, it also helps a lot against hellion harrassment drops and stuff like that. I also found that nydus worms can work because his army is very slow and attacks at multiple locations are very hard to deal for the terran.[Edit: you did that very well in the replay actually]
after watching the replay i think terrans build is far from optimal but you should try to stop him taking the middle because once he has the middle under control its very hard for you to make a cost efficient move. If i got the end of the replay right he adviced you to get broodlords? Pretty funny that he has a thor/viking/tank combo and doesnt seem to know that the reason he gets vikings with this build is to not die to broodlords.
What usally happens if the players are even skilled
a) Zerg is mined out and Terran sits maxed on 200/200 thor tank with lots of turrets and fortresses
b) Zergs wastes his army, Terran counters in the main and kills all tech
i hope this post was any usefull for you
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edit: I watched the replay. At the 24 minute mark you had six bases including one gold, he was on four and had the gold. You *had 12 thousand minerals* and *four thousand gas* and 9 extractors working with 2 more ready to go.
what do I know, I'm only bronze league! But you could have rallied banelings into his gold base and just kept making them, and sending them? He on the other hand had no spare money in the bank, and if he lost gold it would be over.
Or you could drop them on his supply depot array at his main, or muta cloud the supply depots one by one instead of going for one of TWO armories, then getting chased off ...
I can't believe zerg can't spend money.. if you don't spend it you are not on six bases you are on three and you're attacking uphill.
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EPT
