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OK, i rarely ever seek help here, but i'm desperate.
Right now im about 3470 points in masters, playing Zerg.
here's the game.
He opens up mass vikings on Metalo, i know, it's strange, believe me, this guy can make it happen, i lost to it before, as well as played against mass viking build of Strelok, so please dont start that it's a nub BO.
I wouldnt bother much with the early midgame, as i clearly had an advantage, i took all my 6 bases, while he was struggling to get his 4th. Eventually he got it, and here's my trouble.
I simply couldnt kill him. He had planetarys and turrets everywhere and transitioned into mech.
here's what i've been trying:
1.) Going around his army atacking his main below his third-highground / counteratacking whenever i felt like i could do demage, or run into his main
2. ) Nydusing his main then immediatly the other main which he was trying to secure, i've done this multiple times with moderate success.
3. ) As i've seen i canot take any additional base then my half of the map, i sacrificed about ~40 drone troughout the game to free up supply.
4. ) drop his new expos wiht units to prevent him from taking it.
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
Him being my teammate i asked him what to do, but i found it ridicuolus. He suggested broodlords, when he had always at least a fleet of vikings of ~6 to 10 and 2 starports with reactor, and infestors, which immedatly melt to the millions of planetarys and siegetanks before they could do anything.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140449-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
i hope the link works.
The last 5 minutes are hungarian mumble jumble, so you can exit the rep then
Please, if you have meaningful advice, i'm eager to hear it.
Guys! SOO many of you comment whithout watching it or watching half of it. Here are some key things which please dont mention.
A. Economy- if a T is passive you should expand!! <-That's precisely what i did.
You overdroned! <- thank you captain obvious, you could have also noticed i havent stayed on insane dronenumbers for more then a couple of minutes, as i sent tons of them to die to free up supply
B. Armytrading! I dont know if you noticed his 2-2 PFs on the 2 alleys as well as PFs at every expo and PF in the main + the line of siegetanks and ridicuolus ammounts of turrets.
C. Broodlords!! I've said this, i didnt consider it an option given he already had the hardcounter out and 2 port with reactors to mass even more if necessary.
D. Banelings! I used banelings. Some of you say it's not good vs mech, well it s hellout of better then lings at least vs PFs and i wanted the costliest army possible. Some of you say i should have had more. He had a lots of tanks which can clear out huge clumps very quickly, i think having 60 was a fair number
E. Why didnt i go roach-hydra vs his opening. Mass viking is tricky, and this player is very tricky. If i go roach hydra he would have had his third up so super fast with a PF it's crazy and he would have transitioned in bio i think, it's something he does, but even if he stays mech it's reasonable
EDIT2:
Thanks for pointing out i could have won somewhere in the midgame, i dont care. My question was, is there a way to brake terran from 6 base while he's trurtling on 4 and aiming to take his 5th and 6th. I refuse to believe the only way is to kill him off before that. If one race autowins in lategame, the game is terribly broken, and i dont want to believe that.
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Well, from a theorycrafting standpoint Infestor/BroodLord is a great way to break a Terran turtle that has Vikings. You could also expand towards your opponent. Letting an enemy secure half of the map to expand on sets them up for an entire game, and the focus shifts to being more about resources lost. Terran units are more cost efficient than Zerg's, so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
For instance, if you spawn at 9 o clock and expand to your natural, 12 o clock, the gold, and then 6 o clock you are forcing your opponent to respond. Otherwise he has 4 bases he can reach in total and you can prevent the gold from going up as it's on the main attack path. But this is easier said than done, just an idea (expanding map control with creep spread and hatcheries to more than just the half of your map you feel you deserve).
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EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance.
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On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing.
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On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing.
Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. It might be that my mechanics are just pretty good. Like I NEVER queu a worker with terran but I will constantly make workers. I don't even see pro's doing that. Same with injecting, I just have this mental clock. But anyway I found it a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow. I think zerg is harder, but don't exaggerate it 
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First off, great game, was fun to watch 
He really turtled and you did a really good job of being agressive.
As I'm watching:
-Zerglings runby, punish his fast expand.
-When you get maxed, build aditional Hatcheries and start pushing and pushing continously.
-I feel Nydus Worms were a little too late, but still, a good choice.
-Ok, when you reach +10k and you can't spend it, there's something really wrong: Just throw stuff at him and get maxed again quickly, he can't last forever.
You missed Brood Lords and Infestors.
I think you played really well, and you could've won, just suttle things make the difference.
GL!
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On February 17 2011 06:38 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. But a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow.
I know it sort of comes with the territory as the reactionary race. But here is all my ranting presented in a more coherent way: The other two races can "mess" with zerg with a variety of cheesy ways. They can basically wall off, and it is harder to scout, and usually revolves around sacrificing 100 minerals, and 8 supply capacity. They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Now this WOULD be fine except the other races have unit compositions that are hard to beat. To beat the deathball you just have to do alot more micro and such. Now with the "issues" I just mentioned, they ALSO have to pay more attention to micro and positioning, while still not forgetting about macro (injection and such). While protoss gets to A-move their deathball. Can anyone disagree with THAT?! (not imbalance, just the points I listed)
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On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing.
Do we need to share our love for zerg in every thread and complain about how every other race is easier? How does that help the discussion. Imagine if every thread someone talked about how easy playing zerg was and how pro you had to be playing toss.
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On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance.
I suggest you should switch to Terran, or Protoss. There is no "1a" for Zerg. If you dont like it, you should'nt play Zerg.. If you outexpand, outmacro and outmicro your opponent, there is no way you lose to 1a since your macro means you have more units and your micro means you are not stupid to run into siege tanks. And you should'nt really complain about late game issues as Zerg playing vs Terran. You have your Broodlord/Ultralisk deadly switches, which is kinda similar to 1a if you manage to take your 6 bases where your opponent struggles to take 4th..
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On February 17 2011 06:38 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. It might be that my mechanics are just pretty good. Like I NEVER queu a worker with terran but I will constantly make workers. I don't even see pro's doing that. Same with injecting, I just have this mental clock. But anyway I found it a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow. I think zerg is harder, but don't exaggerate it
I played all 3 races for a while and I think zerg is much more difficult. It's less straight forward (not "make constant probes/scvs and pump out of military buildings"), requires more APM and requires more knowledge of the games strategies because you are defending the whole time.
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On February 17 2011 06:43 dcberkeley wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Do we need to share our love for zerg in every thread and complain about how every other race is easier? How does that help the discussion. Imagine if every thread someone talked about how easy playing zerg was and how pro you had to be playing toss.
Then I would stick up for Protoss, and bash Zerg. Think about it: lets say in a perfect world we play each race 33-33-33 ( the population not each person.) Zerg is 1/3rd of the total population (a minority) so 2/3rds of all viewers would be thinking its just a small minority complaining. The issue isn't a few Zergs complaining. It is a neutral observation.
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As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite.
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On February 17 2011 06:45 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. I suggest you should switch to Terran, or Protoss. There is no "1a" for Zerg. If you dont like it, you should'nt play Zerg.. If you outexpand, outmacro and outmicro your opponent, there is no way you lose to 1a since your macro means you have more units and your micro means you are not stupid to run into siege tanks. And you should'nt really complain about late game issues as Zerg playing vs Terran. You have your Broodlord/Ultralisk deadly switches, which is kinda similar to 1a if you manage to take your 6 bases where your opponent struggles to take 4th..
THAT is the answer I am saying is (no offense) useless. You don't look at an issue and say "well there isn't a solution so you should cope" No. You find a solution. If you lose a leg, they "make a solution" with a prosthetic, NOT telling you to cope by learning how to balance on one. Stop telling zergs they need to come up with creative ways to solve problems. Instead fix the problem. I don't know how to fix ZvT but a great fix to the death ball is Corrupters being range 9 like viking (notice how colossi aren't imba in PvT?)
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Can you not just wait for him to push out, then overrun him since you can remax faster? Sooner or later he will have to attack.
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On February 17 2011 06:46 link0 wrote:
As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite.
I can't remember where i read this but I read tanks for some reason prioritize infestors the highest, so any infestor in range gets destroyed before it can cast fungal basically. Not sure if that is true but I think that is what I read.
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If your able to Nydus his main perhaps you should be dropping instead. The surest way to kill a terran is take out his production.
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On February 17 2011 06:50 badcop wrote:
Can you not just wait for him to push out, then overrun him since you can remax faster? Sooner or later he will have to attack.
Nope. Because on these maps the distance is too small. Take shakuras. Two expos are near the Xelnaga tower and theyre harder to defend so you generally take them last. So as youre remaxing, the shrort walk with 30 marines and 4 thors and 3 tanks gets there too fast. Not to mention how insanely fast you can produce marines with like 8 reactor Rax
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On February 17 2011 06:46 link0 wrote:
As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite.
How come? Could you elaborate a bit? I thought the hard counter is Broodlors -> Ultralisks..
I suppose siege tanks should provide enough firepower to deal with infestors fast enough..
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Couldn't you have smashed him with NP+mass roach or just mass roach when he tried taking the gold? You had a significant lead until you decided to fight with mass mutas above Thors + turrets.
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You have stocked resources from having these bases for so long, so losing an expansion immediately shouldn't be a problem, and while that expansion is dying you have maxed army to crush his attack and put on pressure.
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I'm not in masters, but for the majority of the lategame you're floating 10 000 mins and several thousand gas with plenty of larva, but you're not using it (you're also at 105 drones, which is 25 to many).
Instead of doing the fancy Nydus stuff you should just have attacked into him with bane- and cracklings. I also noticed that you could also have started your upgrades sooner. He was turtled up, but 2-3-400 worth of supply would have broken him, which you easily could have done.
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On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote:
OK, i rarely ever seek help here, but i'm desperate.
Right now im about 3470 points in masters, playing Zerg.
here's the game.
He opens up mass vikings on Metalo, i know, it's strange, believe me, this guy can make it happen, i lost to it before, as well as played against mass viking build of Strelok, so please dont start that it's a nub BO.
I am only zerg 2700 masters (EU), so take this with a grain of salt as you are clearly the better player.
To me, it looked like you made a poor decision around 8 minutes, and didn't start trying to change it untill 20 minutes (in game time).
What I am going for is:
- You scouted 1 barrack, 1 factory with tech lab, 2 reactor starports.
- You knew he had hellions out (eventually). And later on tanks.
Why didn't you assume he was going for heavy mech & air play? Especially after seeing vikings and not medivacs (which to me would have suggested he switched it around later on and built barracks on the reactors).
Your choice after this was: Going for ling sling banelings. Which he counters very very well, especially once he gets thors out (which was later than I thought, but still in time).
His choices seemed perfect to counter your style, whereas when I look at the unit counts at 9 - 20 minutes and the supplies, I see nothing roaches, or roach hydro, wouldn't have owned. Completely. Granted, if you switched, he may have switched too - but note the supply difference.
If you know that kind of style is coming, my advice would be to go for roach, with some hydra's (protecting overlords), and by all costs, trade army continously and suicide to kill planetary's.
His supply is real low until after 20 minutes, when he have 4 bases. Some of that is because you do a great job of killing off his vikings, but some of it is also because he is cutting all corners because he assumes you won't try to all in your whole army to bust his main (which would have worked - in my opinion).
Also: you are maxed at 20 minutes. He has 100 supply (a bit below). At 27 minutes, he is basically maxed. You haven't attacked during those minutes, because you have teched and switched army. But if you know he is not going to attack - or you suspect it - keep trading armies. He is basically only building planetary, vikings, thors, tanks and turrets. It's worth nearly anything for you to keep him from maxing on that unit composition + static defenses.
This may seem overly critical, it's not meant to be. If this didn't help at all, feel free to ignore.
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how pro you had to be playing toss.
Dude, it's called PROtoss for a reason. So ignorant.
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the answer to a hard meching terra is mass mutas. A 4 base terran has a VERY hard time defending all the bases. turrets do nothing to stop lategame mutas really, and if you have 4 tanks a few marines and a thor at every base you're spread very thin. and can even be overrune by a roach army 1 aing in.
Abuse the mech immobility. if he pull his thors and marines to defend send in a second mutas group to kill his tanks. if you have enough mutas you can sneak in and kill atank in one volley even if marines are standing right next to them. imagine what you can do when his forces are spread thin.
try dropping, nydusing and muta harassing at the same time. its actually much easier to execute than to defend. and if you're on 6 base you really shouldnt have trouble remaxing.
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Lol... this strategy is a joke, right?
Your play was far from perfect - I think that's been pointed out enough in the thread. Although you managed to bounce back from a terrible opening ( why would you lose 3 queens to a non-threat force?? - stupid! )
You had 100 supply over him at one point. Uhm??
A standard roach rush build would demolish this in two shakes of a queen's tale.
You went mass mutas - which raped the vikings as expected, but then you run your wonderful and super expensive army over thors....????!?
Terran had almost no defense - 3 tanks... It's hard to believe you are a 3k+ master if you can't easily pick this replay apart and see you could have raped and pillaged so many times.
Edit: PF are very easy to get rid of if you are going banelings - I've seen plenty of pro players run 10+ banelings into a PF with ease.
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Woah. You played really well.
Let's see - you had like 6+k minerals for a ridiculous amount of time, so you can afford to get a little crazy. And you need to bust his position. Recommendation?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187434
Ultra/Baneling. Try it out next time maybe? You said he's your teammate, right? Tell him to be passive like that again while you try another strategy to bust that. I mean, it works against 3000 level master Terrans on the NA server. Would be awesome to see your results with it.
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This guy looks super breakable between the 13 and 20 minute mark, I didn't watch any further.
Also, start trading armys when you max out while being ahead in economy.
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Ok, so far what i've read:
1.Use mutaharass, drop and nyduses. Well, you didnt watch the game, i used all of those and many times. Nydus was late, taht might be the case, i'm not sure.
2. Why did i go muta vs a seemingly mech build. This guy is insane, he can keep going mass air, switch to bio or to mech, he has more builds and transitions then half of the ladder terrans i played together. So assuming he gonna go mech because he has some hellions, not a safe choise.
3. I hit 10k quickly, yes, i wanted to wait for maxed upgrades, and sacrificed drones for even more stuff. I wanted to attack with 3/3 ultra bane and some hydras, as i thought this is the costliest army i can get out.
4. BLs and infestors. BLs, he had vikings always and 2 starpots with reactors. I'm not confident going against that with BLs tbh... infestors, neural parasite, they have so high attack priority whnever they try to attack into mech with your army they will die. He has lines of siegetanks, on cliff siegtanks, several PFs and tons of thors, the chance that i can NP 6-7 thors safely is below minimal in my opinion. I have never had much success with NP, even if the T werent in such a defensive position.
5. Wait for him to attack. Well, he wont, till he s totally established then he just slowpushes forward or go for 1 punch with his 3/3. Honestly, being up 2 base and with my full tech available, i didnt feel like the best choise is to wait till he gets every base he can.
6. more hatches. I had 7 hatches, which sometimes were maxed on larvae. Enough said
I've killed some of his production, i've killed many supplies, i menaged to kill his new exp a couple of times, but he just kept on going slowly and surely and i still fel helpless about it
On February 17 2011 07:11 Enyalus wrote:Ultra/Baneling. Try it out next time maybe?
i'm not sure if you noticed my attack with ~15 ultras and ~60 banes with soe support, with 3/3 upgrades
On February 17 2011 07:14 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
This guy looks super breakable between the 13 and 20 minute mark, I didn't watch any further.
Also, start trading armys when you max out while being ahead in economy.
Well thank you, i was precisely asking for ideas after that point, btw i'm not sure what do you mean by trading armies, as i could have traded army for PFs turrets and maybe a couple of units, that's why i've been nydusing, and trying to "trade" too when i had my upgrades at full.
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ok I'm gonna list down my thoughts as I watch the replay
He has an expo up without contest and at 7 mins he has two hellions as his army and two starports. I dont see why you didnt keep poking with lings, you prob could've killed a couple of scvs before the hellion came out with just two lings
Ok at 13 mins and a few pokes with mutas to see whats up is good, and your way ahead right now by 40 food I dont see how you could lose it without some sort of huge mess up
Im looking at his nat and he has 3 tanks, if you jsut went pure roach from now till about a min later you would win or atleast do some heavy damage
Im at 16 mins and still you could just mass up raoches no scratch that units of any kind and a move these 3 tanks.
at 17 minsish giving away those mutas was baaaad watch out for clumping when you attack, but still you are ahead by 50 food.
ok you just now started upgrading, you had so much money for a long period of time why dont you have 3 evo chambers upgrading instead of just upgrading mutas you have the money I can see that you do, also 119 drones is too many your 200/200 army will be too small, which you should have by now btw, he also still has 4 tanks and a couple of thors...
ok hes catching up at 25 mins in food count, but only because you let him, why havent you gone though 20 armies at this point? Again you have the money too, also make more hatches so you can remax instantly, again you have the money just spend it damn it xD
ok Im 30 mins in and that nydus was good, but why arent you doing 3 at the same time? mech armies are strongest together you just half abusing its mobility, drops in the main nydus worms near the 3rd etc etc. abusing mobility isnt attack once every 5 mins its attack constantly all the time. Although I do like that you stopped his 4th and 5th from going up.
Im at 37 mins and this is good that your dropping after you rammed your head into those PF's. although you should could and must do this earlier and more. You where way ahead and then you where like "oh now we are both 200/200 my advantage is gone so Im gonna start dropping now"
I feel as if Im repeating myself here but you get the point, Im not even gonna bother to watch how you lost.
wall of text lol ^^ sorry if I sounded a bit mean but you could've won that so easy but you just thought of the things you needed to do too late, when its mech you should just instantly be thinking of ways to abuse the mobility.
Just use your midgame advantage its as simple as not letting him get to the point where he cannot be penitrated(lol)
Ok just read your post above I think your missing the point you could've started upgrades earlier so you didnt need to wait for them, even then that wouldn't have matter, and you could've killed him 10 times over if you didnt just sit back and let him get is super impossible to beat army.
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On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance.
You sir, are the definition of a crying zerg player and your nonsense is not welcome or appreciated.
You clearly point out things that cause you to lose games, but then instead of fixing those you yell imbalance.
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i did not wathc the game im trying to give general tips. I cant watch the game since im at work.
just muta harass isnt gonan do much, but if you drop and nydus him AT THE SAME TIME, he will be very confused. Also as a zerg you have the luxury of being able to tech switch very fast. if you have so much cash in the bank, check ou his unit composition, then use a protion of your army that you know will suck against that, sacrafice it and remax with a better composition.
if he's tech switching faster than you then there is something very wrong about the way you play zerg
Its very possible you simply got ouplayed. the way you describe slow pushing you make it sound easy. it's not. its very difficult to defend your tanks from being killed by mutas. and if you're half way across the map with your army and you attack his base he has to pull back and start the push again.
again, abuse his immobilitly
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Have you tried mass 3/3 banelings with ultras in front, and mass queen support?
Mass up queens, get 80ish food in banelings (so 160 or so banelings), 3-5 ultras (18-30 more food), and the rest queens (10-20 queens). Take that ball and sweep into his bases.
Ultras soak the damage while your queens heal them, and the banelings can then get to their targets (such as a planetary fortress, or masses of mech or bio). The ultras should survive for the most part, so just keep pumping lings once you push out, and morph more banelings, and keep on sweeping through.
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On February 17 2011 07:24 Moody wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. You sir, are the definition of a crying zerg player and your nonsense is not welcome or appreciated. You clearly point out things that cause you to lose games, but then instead of fixing those you yell imbalance.
Let me ask you something, do you play Zerg? And I can't believe I have to restate this over and over. IF ONE RACE HAS TO PLAY "BETTER" (more apm better macro etc.) THEN THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED. Obviously I know that blizzard won't change anything, so if we want to yell imbalance, then who gives a flying mutalisks glave worm hole.
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zerg isnt harder though. My friend has an average of 60 APM when playing zerg (masters rank 25) and i have an average APM of 100 or higher and play terran. he crushes me every single game. oh yeah he usually has more mins banked than me too
so much for better macro and higher APM, he beats just because hes better at making decisions than i am.
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On February 17 2011 07:47 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 07:24 Moody wrote:On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. You sir, are the definition of a crying zerg player and your nonsense is not welcome or appreciated. You clearly point out things that cause you to lose games, but then instead of fixing those you yell imbalance. Let me ask you something, do you play Zerg? And I can't believe I have to restate this over and over. IF ONE RACE HAS TO PLAY "BETTER" (more apm better macro etc.) THEN THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED. Obviously I know that blizzard won't change anything, so if we want to yell imbalance, then who gives a flying mutalisks glave worm hole.
If you want to get somewhere, you need to get this attitude out of your head first. If youre looking for excuses and you see problems in racial balance instead of in your own play, this game will only cause you headaches.
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Actually having the attitude helps me. I just CRUSHED a terran doing that play (After army trade I ditched the lings (made them to banes) and went ape shit with roaches and like 8 brood lords and 20 corrupters and just demolished him. Now, in my head thinking they are OP motivated me MORE to wanna macro like hell and kill him. In fact I was thinking of this thread the whole time. I play much better when I am angry. Go figure
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On February 17 2011 07:22 Geo.Rion wrote:
i'm not sure if you noticed my attack with ~15 ultras and ~60 banes with soe support, with 3/3 upgrades
Ah, I feel stupid. The replay messed up at 28:33, and I got it mixed up with the 48:33 replay time. But they're doing shit to B.net, at least on the NA server. So maybe that's what happened. And I saw you had Ultras and banelings, so I suggested what I did. Apologies.
The Ultra/Bling attack you did around 33 min worked great. You killed 3 PFs and most of his Thors. But then I think you remaxed on Ultras and Hydras. If you look at the map around 34 minutes, nothing is defending his natural and main base - and those are the only bases with his production facilities in them. He has a bunch of tanks sitting at the 3 o'clock main, and a few Thors left over near his gold behind his PF wall. You had 3/3 cracklings at that point and were 200 supply to his 148. If you had remaxed on cracklings and not Ultra/Hydra, I think you could have crippled him tremendously.
You actually did what I'm talking about around the 41 minute mark, and it was pretty successful. But you had lost a ton of ultras up to that point and your armies were closer in size.
What do you think about that assessment?
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I think your only chance would have been to keep him from maxing. Continuously waste your army and remax once you max. Wear him down and keep him from getting his third and fourth saturated, and maxing his supply. Not stockpiling resources at all, just keep being offensive. And hope that your superior economy eventually wear him down.
If you are confident he would have beaten that, well - I have no other advice to offer.
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some more reactions:
ultra-queen is not viable vs terran mech, it might be vs P, not vs mech
1. There are lots of you suggesting i could have dont thing better in midgame, that i could have won probably. I know. But the way i learnt to play this game is to captialize with macro and tech on your opponent not rallying everything at his main. I'd hate to find out this is simply not true. My problem precisely is that even though i was in a very good position he just stayed passive as it gets and came back.
2. Again lots suggesting counters and immobility, i ve been doing that the whole game long. Probably i could have sent wawes of lings towards his production earlier, but as you've seen the later attacks didnt do as much demage, and even if i menage to break in there earlier, facts can be built at the new main or floated there. The supply depos i took out, as many as i could find.
3. I could have used the units better. Obviously. That's beside the point in an eco based rts you cant and shouldnt have to have prefect control, while doing other stuff.
4. People saying i overdroned. I did, and i sacrificed a lot of them when i knew i didnt need them anymore.
5. I've been using some hydras, because i wanted to get rid of his vikings to be able to drop better and maybe get BLs if i see fit, deny floating production buildings and they have a nice dps from back there vs thors anyways.
6. constant army trades. He had a craptone of static defence i couldnt just rally stuff there in hope to kill enough of his crap.
Basicly, i know i could have done things some small things better, but let's not neglect the fact i was lightyears ahead after earlymidgame. I'm curious about what to do when this stalemate happens. So far most of you are pointing out some specific elements of the game, while i'm more intrested in what to do when you find yourself in this horrible situation.
I'd blame the map normally, but c'mon if Metalo cross pos is borken then what isnt.
On February 17 2011 07:51 mustache wrote:
zerg isnt harder though. My friend has an average of 60 APM when playing zerg (masters rank 25) and i have an average APM of 100 or higher and play terran. he crushes me every single game. oh yeah he usually has more mins banked than me too
so much for better macro and higher APM, he beats just because hes better at making decisions than i am.
that's a very specific case. The only zerg who has low apm and had any kind of succes that i know of is Madfrog, and he has not won anything noteworthy. As for terrans, there are quite a few, Sjow and Lucifron are the two obvious picks, who are below 100 apm, and well, everybody is aware of how much they accomplished, or if not there's the TLPD
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On February 17 2011 07:22 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 07:14 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
This guy looks super breakable between the 13 and 20 minute mark, I didn't watch any further.
Also, start trading armys when you max out while being ahead in economy. Well thank you, i was precisely asking for ideas after that point, btw i'm not sure what do you mean by trading armies, as i could have traded army for PFs turrets and maybe a couple of units, that's why i've been nydusing, and trying to "trade" too when i had my upgrades at full.
I didn't mean to be offensive. You should have won when terran was weak, the rest of the game is pointless. If you want to win, everything past 20 minutes should not happen in the way it happened.
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On February 17 2011 07:47 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
Let me ask you something, do you play Zerg? And I can't believe I have to restate this over and over. IF ONE RACE HAS TO PLAY "BETTER" (more apm better macro etc.) THEN THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED. Obviously I know that blizzard won't change anything, so if we want to yell imbalance, then who gives a flying mutalisks glave worm hole.
That's your problem. You aren't playing better than your opponents. You make tons and tons of mistakes, and instead of being "oh, I made a mistake better fix it next time!" you are instead "Terran is imba".
There is no race that 1As to victory at high level either. I suggest you either get a hell of a lot better or switch to an easier race (Your words, not anyone elses) and when you fail to get further than you are now, come back and qq some more about how every match up is broken. The simple truth is there are no Zerg only players out there who end up switching and proceed to do a hell of a lot better afterwards. You may feel pretty cheesed when you lose because there was "nothing you could do", but so do terran players who die to a swarm of 20 well micro'd mutas or toss players who lose to a roach rush.
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The first GLARING problem I see is that you made 111 drones. Did you really expect to do any kind of damage with a 90 food army?
11k minerals? 4k gas? I'm at 24:00 and unless you sack some of those drones soon, I don't see you ever winning this.
Other issues:
Banelings ---> Why? You pretty much knew he was going mech.
Upgrades --> 24:00 in and your ground upgrades just finished. With 11k minerals, you shouldn't be getting upgrades this late!
Those 3 things are the biggest issues i see:
too many drones
useless banelings
horrible upgrades
taken individually, these might seem small.... all together, this is a big problem
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On February 17 2011 08:37 Geo.Rion wrote:
some more reactions:
ultra-queen is not viable vs terran mech, it might be vs P, not vs mech
5. I've been using some hydras, because i wanted to get rid of his vikings to be able to drop better and maybe get BLs if i see fit, deny floating production buildings and they have a nice dps from back there vs thors anyways.
ultra-queen + 160 banelings will WRECK terran mech. (Even just 60 banelings will probably wreck everything too). Its not a cost-efficient trade, but if your econ is ahead, its worth it.
Then just remax on banelings or cracklings.
As to the hydras, they can be replaced by the queen's range 7 air attack, which while not quite as strong, is still pretty good. This way you can spend more of your gas morphing banelings.
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On February 17 2011 06:49 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:45 Everlong wrote:On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. I suggest you should switch to Terran, or Protoss. There is no "1a" for Zerg. If you dont like it, you should'nt play Zerg.. If you outexpand, outmacro and outmicro your opponent, there is no way you lose to 1a since your macro means you have more units and your micro means you are not stupid to run into siege tanks. And you should'nt really complain about late game issues as Zerg playing vs Terran. You have your Broodlord/Ultralisk deadly switches, which is kinda similar to 1a if you manage to take your 6 bases where your opponent struggles to take 4th.. THAT is the answer I am saying is (no offense) useless. You don't look at an issue and say "well there isn't a solution so you should cope" No. You find a solution. If you lose a leg, they "make a solution" with a prosthetic, NOT telling you to cope by learning how to balance on one. Stop telling zergs they need to come up with creative ways to solve problems. Instead fix the problem. I don't know how to fix ZvT but a great fix to the death ball is Corrupters being range 9 like viking (notice how colossi aren't imba in PvT?)
You aren't looking for a solution, that's the problem, you just whine about Zerg being underpowered everywhere and nowhere. You don't want to get suggestions for improving your mechanics, you don't want help on timings or unit compositions and you don't want to switch races either. All you want to do is cry about having to play Zerg all day and pretend you'd be leagues higher if you played Protoss or Terran ... and we got bored with that 3 months ago.
Edit:
Watching the replay right now and the first thing that I'm noticing is that you let him get away with FAR too much greed.
It seems like he is taking advantage of knowing your playstyle since he feels comfortable 1 rax expanding whilst teching behind it. He then takes a ridiculously early third at 7:50 whilst going dual reactored Starport and he only has 2 marines and 2 hellions to defend!
Any sort of ling, bling or roach pressure would have rolled him over at this point, but he seems to be sure you're going 2-base spire even though he hasn't scouted it.
You scout he's going dual reactor starport with your ovie, that's a complete give-away of mass vikings since he only had 1 rax. So why would you continue to go mutalisks? Not making air would've made those vikings a useless expenditure, you should really make roaches to keep him honest at this point or expand way more agressively. He's basically doing a pure counter to your build so I'm assuming he already knew what you were going to do.
And even then, your mutalisk did pretty well in killing Vikings until you ran a control group of them into 3 thors 3 Turrets and 6 Vikings and lost all of them. You got remaxed at around 20 minutes and you're floating humongous amounts of resources from that point on, but you don't attack ...
There's no use to being maxed if you're not going to attack and take advantage of your food advantage and instant remax. It really seemed like you weren't comfortable being the agressor. You morphed a bunch of banelings and let them site idle for like 10 minutes ... run the fuckers in! You were maxed while having taken your half of the map while he was at 110 food and 4-base. This is the time where you can afford to suicide into his army with your Ultra-baneling and remax. When he gets equal bases and food to you it's basically GG.
You made some half-hearted attempts at Nydus'ing his bases, but you never ran the majority of your army through them, they were all small task forrces that got taken out by his army costless.
You floated more than 10k minerals and 5k gas for like 10 minutes while he was catching up and I kept asking myself why you wouldn't just go and attack him? Morph half of your drones into spinecrawlers, even 60 drones is too many considering the amounts of money you had saved up. You could lose everything and remax on ultra ling three times basically, but you're not going to win if you're playing into your opponent's race's strengths.
Basically, I think you played a good game, but failed to take advantage of Zerg agression and their ability to remax instantly late-game.
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how does the mass viking opening work? it sounds epic? i can offer no help as im only diamond player, but im very interested in that opening.
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I'm a lowly Platinum with some degree of Zerg play so take what i say as you will.
I'd suggest an infester heavy build. Essentially, they CAN beat most units in the game. Now with this Terran style i presume every base aside the first two are planetary fortresses, a mass of missile turrets around the mineral lines and planetary fortress with siege tanks and supporting thors behind them across the centre of the map by the end game?
If so then i think what you need to do is indeed just infesters really. Attack them with energy rather than units. If you spam a sufficient quantity of infested terrans i think it likely you can overwhelm him eventually, and should he himself move out of his turtle well you have all those infesters and STILL have all that saved larva and resource which otherwise would have been spent.
This seems like the main use for infested terrans is to break the unbreakable. I think every race has issues verses a terran who manages to reach this game stage.
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i faced something similar a few weeks ago but i could punish by going pure roaches and killing the ground forces - vikings are really awful against roaches especially if upgraded and if the terran upgrades vikings he wont have much upgrades on infantry and mech
against a passive terran i would suggest to suicide banelings and take out planetary fortresses whenever its possible; i wouldnt even bother making mutas but just get a few spores and queens to save your overlords
also passive play should enable to to either mass roaches and infestor with np or even tech to ultras and use np - ultras and np on terran mech units are an insane amount of supply so its like one and a half army on your side vs half of the terran
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On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle.
Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.)
If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader).
Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects.
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On February 17 2011 09:29 colanderman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.) If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader). Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects.
but if you've got the same sucess with all three races the conclusion out of this would be that as T/P missing production cycles is less of a disadvantage as missing larva injects
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Not necessarily, maybe he's better at microing with other races. Regardless thats off topic.
I stick by my infester heavy thought. Although there is one other playing on my mind and thats this ultralisk+queens business. It looks solid.
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On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:38 Endorsed wrote:On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. But a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow. I know it sort of comes with the territory as the reactionary race. But here is all my ranting presented in a more coherent way: The other two races can "mess" with zerg with a variety of cheesy ways. They can basically wall off, and it is harder to scout, and usually revolves around sacrificing 100 minerals, and 8 supply capacity. They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Now this WOULD be fine except the other races have unit compositions that are hard to beat. To beat the deathball you just have to do alot more micro and such. Now with the "issues" I just mentioned, they ALSO have to pay more attention to micro and positioning, while still not forgetting about macro (injection and such). While protoss gets to A-move their deathball. Can anyone disagree with THAT?! (not imbalance, just the points I listed)
Why do I keep hearing about this mythical 1A Protoss deathball? All I know is that if I 1A my entire army, my sentries don't forcefield or guardian shield, my templars dont storm. Each unit in my army moves at a different speed and becomes seperated/picked off, and when they do fight together, my stalkers/sentries are tanking for my zealots who can't fight.
When I play in this way, my army gets surrounded, picked off, stimmed, and in short just rolled over. I have to keep constant tabs on my army at all times as Protoss because I have so many abilities I need to use precisely at the beginning of an encounter or risk losing the entire army.
How much micro do you think a roach/hydra army takes? Attack move their army -- try to get a surround if possible, then move onto macroing at your base to quickly remax and roll them over..not too tough. It's not like you have any abilities to use.
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First off high Templar with sentry isn't the stalker colossus death ball. Second i find it easier to deal with the death ball. ZvP is my best matchup. It's terrans ball I have trouble with. AND GODDAMNIT I'm so sick of Terran and protoss' telling me stuff about Zerg. Yeah you lose te occasional p or tvz but you just beat them and dontthink twice. If you don't play te underpowered race then you won't realize it. If you're not a Zerg please don't lecture me about my play. I didn't ask for a Terran or protoss' advice nor do I want it.
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Easiest way to kill a turtling Terran is to simply do a Broodlord -> Ultra switch.
Mass Broodlords with a decent amount of Corruptors to support. This forces the Terran to make a large amount of Vikings or lose the game. After he kills your stuff, hard switch to Ultras. He'll still have too many Vikings out and your Ultras will destroy everything in their path. There is no way for a Terran to keep up with Zerg unit swaps and Zerg production speed at that point in the game.
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The best things about "which race is easiest" discussions:
1) Always, always are off topic.
2) Zergs are always the ones to initiate.
3) Everyone acts as if their own subjective experiences with a race is an objective fact about the race. Not taking into consideration that Blizzard designed the races to play entirely separately to each other, and that each race has it's own playstyle, as well as each player having it's own playstyle.
4) X race is always hardest where X = "the race I play"
Edit: 5) CAPS LOCK IS NECESSARY
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On February 17 2011 09:29 colanderman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.) If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader). Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects.
What I meant was if you bank up minerals you can throw down an extra gateway or two. Sure you can make an extra hatch, but the takes time to buil up larvae which is more MACRO ladies and gentlmen. One extra gateway on a hot key just means you hit w then s one more time NOT checking larvae completion. I am saying keeping up on larvae management and creep spread, harder scouting (no map hacks or scans) and overlord placement makes more macro. Forget whether you think the races (eg units upgrades etc) are imba. It is more work to play Zerg. Positionig is huge. I'm not arguing that units are imba. I just feel in order to keep upbeith players equal to you in terms of rank you need to play far more superior play. Not to mention walling off. Bcuz we can't do that rushes and stuff like 4 gates F us over. If you Protoss and terrans can't see that your head is farther up te ass of your respective race than I thought.
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On February 17 2011 10:02 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 09:29 colanderman wrote:On February 17 2011 06:43 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Sorry to be off topic but this is a pet peeve of mine. Larva injection is correctly compared to building units in the other two races, not to MULEs/chronos. In T and P, you have to time your unit building/warping in so you don't miss a production cycle, or else that cycle is just as irreversibly lost as missed larvae are. (This is less true in T where you can queue units but you generally don't want to do that anyway.) If anything, larva injection is easier than keeping up with production cycles in T and P, because all your hatcheries have the same production cycle. Not true with varying units in T and P (only exception I can think of is marine + maurader). Although I can't say my APM is the greatest, having played all three races equally I can attest that I miss T/P production cycles (especially warp-ins) far more often than larva injects. What I meant was if you bank up minerals you can throw down an extra gateway or two. Sure you can make an extra hatch, but the takes time to buil up larvae which is more MACRO ladies and gentlmen. One extra gateway on a hot key just means you hit w then s one more time NOT checking larvae completion. I am saying keeping up on larvae management and creep spread, harder scouting (no map hacks or scans) and overlord placement makes more macro. Forget whether you think the races (eg units upgrades etc) are imba. It is more work to play Zerg. Positionig is huge. I'm not arguing that units are imba. I just feel in order to keep upbeith players equal to you in terms of rank you need to play far more superior play. Not to mention walling off. Bcuz we can't do that rushes and stuff like 4 gates F us over. If you Protoss and terrans can't see that your head is farther up te ass of your respective race than I thought.
Seriously, stop going offtopic in this thread. Make a blog.
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On February 17 2011 06:54 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:46 link0 wrote:
As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite. How come? Could you elaborate a bit? I thought the hard counter is Broodlors -> Ultralisks.. I suppose siege tanks should provide enough firepower to deal with infestors fast enough..
Broodlords usually come too late to stop a well timing mech attack.
Basically, you have an army of mostly Roaches Lings and Infestors. You just A-move into their ball, then you neural parasite all the thors/tanks up front. The tanks in the back won't be able to target the infestors. It REALLY does work well (I've been roflstomped by it many times when I've tried Mech).
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I haven't had a chance to watch the replay. If the problem is the terran turtles with a smaller army but PFs + turrets, and you have a 200/200 army but cant bust in, can you put some of your excess gas into like 10 overseers, shut down his production and trade armies. Or at least lure away some of his vikings while you hit with air units somewhere else.
I know overseers would die pretty quick to vikings as they are armored, but if you keep them moving it might be a worthwhile investment.
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well, i only encoutered mass mech play. What anyway seems to be the problem not the harrassment early, the only thing these vikings do is they limit your map control alot and slows you down because fast mutas are really hard to deal with pure mech. [EdiT: after watching the replay i think that the terran played that far from optimal - the double starport with reactors is slowing him down way too much, he adds his additional factorys way to late so he could only reproduce like 20 supply at once for a very long time]
And TvZ when the Terran is getting mech is kinda similiar to PvZ once the protoss gets maxed it will be very hard for you to win - tanks/thor/hellion/marine balls are the most cost efficient army that a terran can get. I think its even harder to deal with than protoss death balls because you dont really have any real strong counters to the thors - stuff you can do is using infestors to control the thors if you can you should try to mindcontrol from highground and have a banenling/roach ball to support them, if you have a lot more income than him you can also try to bomb his expansions with banelings. Your main goal is to trade armys kill thors and tanks and reeinforce constantly, but this only works before he sieged up at the middle.
I also think getting mutas (~15) and harass him a lot can work, it also helps a lot against hellion harrassment drops and stuff like that. I also found that nydus worms can work because his army is very slow and attacks at multiple locations are very hard to deal for the terran.[Edit: you did that very well in the replay actually]
after watching the replay i think terrans build is far from optimal but you should try to stop him taking the middle because once he has the middle under control its very hard for you to make a cost efficient move. If i got the end of the replay right he adviced you to get broodlords? Pretty funny that he has a thor/viking/tank combo and doesnt seem to know that the reason he gets vikings with this build is to not die to broodlords.
What usally happens if the players are even skilled
a) Zerg is mined out and Terran sits maxed on 200/200 thor tank with lots of turrets and fortresses
b) Zergs wastes his army, Terran counters in the main and kills all tech
i hope this post was any usefull for you
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edit: I watched the replay. At the 24 minute mark you had six bases including one gold, he was on four and had the gold. You *had 12 thousand minerals* and *four thousand gas* and 9 extractors working with 2 more ready to go.
what do I know, I'm only bronze league! But you could have rallied banelings into his gold base and just kept making them, and sending them? He on the other hand had no spare money in the bank, and if he lost gold it would be over.
Or you could drop them on his supply depot array at his main, or muta cloud the supply depots one by one instead of going for one of TWO armories, then getting chased off ...
I can't believe zerg can't spend money.. if you don't spend it you are not on six bases you are on three and you're attacking uphill.
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If the game goes that long, if your not going to get infestors for the thors, I suggest Ultra/brood with queen back up. Ultra and brood kills the ground, Queen kills air and heals ultra and brood. It's a slow push, but should annihalate everything except 14 clumped tanks. It will only work against an opponent that never attacks.
You had enough resources to remax on ultra's 3 times. Attack earlier. Don't attack the same place twice. Make those siege tanks and thors move.
If the opponent plays passive you need to get more bases than him. If you can't do that, and don't attack, then your going to slowly die to the inevitable slow push.
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I can see the problem.
Actually I really believe that the solution is Neural parasite. He was so Thor heavy that even the atm pretty rubbish NE will have a huge effect. Remember the attack on like 12 Thors with about 15 Ultras, just imagine how this would have gone with 15 Ultras+3-5 Thors against 7 Thors...
This is one option.
The other option is a tipp by Psy. He once said, that at this point with a superior ecco against a turtle terran Infestor/Broodlord/Corrupter is the solution. It might not be cost effective, but u had a far superior ecconomy.
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"from a theorycrafting standpoint Infestor/BroodLord is a great way to break a Terran turtle that has Vikings"
LOL terran who goes for mass viking mean he has mass starport with reactor. No amount of infestor spam can help keeping the broodlord from dying.
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==>To be frank, you can easily beat this mass viking build if you go for 2 bases with extra hatchery speedling/banneling. The terran barely has any ground army in the beginning of the game. Just ton of viking, 1 marine 2-3hellions.
==>You did fine the entire game until you fall apart at endgame. You have way way more supply than terran. Practice end game I assume. I would suggest you go through the internet search for these zerg players. Fruitdealer, Idra, Ret, Nestea. Try to figure out something for the end game.
==>When terran go mech, Infestor ultra and ling is pretty much will be your standard since terran has so many vikings. With fungal and mind control from infestor, ultralisk to tank the tank slash dmg, I don't think zerg 200/200 max army will lose to mech 200/200 army.
=>Gotta try to tech early for that ultralisk army though.
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The Terran played like a zerg ( expanding fast as possible and waiting for attacks ) and the Zerg played like a Terran ( harrassing, dropping small hit squads at expos and main ).
The strategy of Terran was extra fast expanding with mass Vikings. ( trying to get a third faster than a Zerg third seems very risky ) Whereas the strategy of Zerg was mass Mutalisks. The standard expectations of the Zerg to mass up a cloud of Mutas and pick off SCVs, depots while expanding and macroing up were suboptimally shutdown by mass vikings a few Thors and a hell lot of turrets thanks to mineral mining expos.
A Kyrix style mass Lings and Banelings could have worked and like some suggest mass roaches could have worked too. Problem is the upgrades priority went to Mutas and by the time you switched to a ground army, the Terran was on 4 bases with tanks, thors and PFs.
Like a post stated, things that happened after 20 minutes weren't what was supposed to happen. There was this window where Terran didn't have a big Mech army just yet and had invested way too much in anti-air static defense that ground defense was extremely extremely weak.
And even late game it seemed those Ultralisks died in vain. You stated Queen Ultralisks don't work against Mech .. then how in the world can pure Ultralisks work against Mech? I mean at least they live longer with the Queen Transfusions right?
Really, I hope you don't think because of this that Terran is OP/IMBA. Every race has it's difficulties which you overlook when playing one race. The self-pompous attitude of playing a race that is underpowered and requires more skill than other races is pretty insulting to players of other races that are actually skilled.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On February 17 2011 13:43 whomybuddy wrote:
"from a theorycrafting standpoint Infestor/BroodLord is a great way to break a Terran turtle that has Vikings"
LOL terran who goes for mass viking mean he has mass starport with reactor. No amount of infestor spam can help keeping the broodlord from dying.
Well, I mean, if you have ENOUGH infestors, you can use neural parasite to grab his vikings so they can't shoot the broodlord. Failing that, you could fungal growth them so your brood lords can get away, especially if they're stacked up. I feel like Infested Terran are not very good AA though...
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On February 17 2011 07:47 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 07:24 Moody wrote:On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. You sir, are the definition of a crying zerg player and your nonsense is not welcome or appreciated. You clearly point out things that cause you to lose games, but then instead of fixing those you yell imbalance. Let me ask you something, do you play Zerg? And I can't believe I have to restate this over and over. IF ONE RACE HAS TO PLAY "BETTER" (more apm better macro etc.) THEN THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED. Obviously I know that blizzard won't change anything, so if we want to yell imbalance, then who gives a flying mutalisks glave worm hole.
I care that you yell imbalance because it damages the community.
If someone is thinking "Oh, la de da, I think I'll check out Starcraft 2, maybe buy it! First, I want to see what fans have to say about it! I know! I'll google it." You know what happens? Team liquid pops up, they read your post, and don't buy Starcraft.
Right now, the game is balanced enough that skill determines the outcome of a game, not "balance."
As for the "1A" unit composition, why should you even want that? Protoss HAS to have the death ball because they have shit for harassing units. Zerg however, has the best macro mechanic in the game (larvae) coupled with the best harass unit in the game (mutalisk). On top of that, you have mobility that is unmatched by any other race - your slowest unit (Hydra, off creep) is the same speed as marines and marauders (un stimmed). If you had all of this, AND an early/mid game death ball, would anything be able to beat a well played zerg? + Show Spoiler +The way you make up for the inefficiency of your main army (Roach / Hydra vs toss & Ling, Bling, Muta vs Terran) is abuse your mobility via harass and ability to recreate your army faster.
I don't know what level you're at, but from your several ranting q.q posts I would assume you're not in masters. At your level, you need to find out what you're doing wrong, and fix it. Fix the major flaws in your build, learn different build orders depending on maps /spawn positions, and tighten them up.
I'm not hating on all zergs here, but most seem to take what IdrA says as gospel. IdrA says it's imbalanced, so it must be. It couldn't be that he is simply getting out played. I honestly believe that if IdrA came out and said "Oh, patch 1.2.1 balanced the game!" ~90% of these zerg q.q threads balance discussions would stop happening.
On balance in general, what do you see as balanced? I see it as: if 2 equally skilled players play a game the have an equal chance of winning. If that is correct, then Starcraft 2 seems pretty balanced. Jinro beat IdrA last season because Jinro is better. MVP beat NesTea because MVP is better.
If you honestly feel that Terran or Protoss is so much "easier" to play than Zerg, switch. It's as simple as that. Clearly you'll jump straight into top 200, and you can post the screen shot to prove me wrong.
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you already saw that he was going double port with reactors on them both. why didn't you just transition to hydra roach and break the front?
but since you already went mutas there were a lot of weak points in that base you could have attacked. for his third you could have harassed the mineral line and then proceed onto his natural taking out that lone turret. all he had were vikings. you could have taken your third earlier too. i'm not saying that would win you the game but that's what you could have done ^_^.
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you suck though what the hell do you know sigma
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I'm a high master Terran and I abuse this passive turtle strategy versus Zerg all the time with an amazing winrate. There is no hard counter to this strategy because this strategy exploits the intrinsic weakness of the race, that is, Zerg cannot fight the other 2 races cost efficiently. This strategy is map dependent and imo the current map pool favors this kind of passive style. On small maps like BS, JB, SofW, even LT it is almost unbeatable due to scarcity of gas.
Basically the gameplan is something similar to the old Brood War mech TvZ on Destination. The idea is you limit Zerg to his half of the map with tons of defense placed in the midfield. Because Zerg can never win Terran mech cost efficiently, when two sides are under equal resources Terran eventually wins after Zerg is mined out.
Although this passive turtle strat is hard to beat, it is not impossible. Most Zerg's reaction to a turtling Terran is to counter-expand. If you do this, you have fallen into his trap. This is exactly what a turtling Terran wants you to do. You give him time to set up an impermeable defense. From my experience, the soft counter to this strategy is to organize multifront harrass when Terran tries to take his 3rd.
I would request those people who haven't tried or encountered this strategy before please refrain from commenting. I know you haven't seen this style in GSL. I believe the reasons that Korean pros are not using it is because
1. It makes the match rather unentertaining to watch.
2. The early bio advantage is just to good to pass up. Kind of the "Why not end the game sooner if I can" mentality.
3. It doesn't give pros a chance to show off their insane micro. In fact no much micro is needed if you play mech.
Again, if you don't care about whether your game is entertaining and have a lot of patience, then you definitely can win a lot of games with this strategy.
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I'm not a 4k master zerg or w/e but I can tell just by normal mechanics that 111 drones is usually too much, its better to have 6 bases and 3 mining and using your queens for larva injects + tranfuses than saturating each base. That dwindles your forces immensely.
If you just kept it at like 80-90 drones and constantly made banelings (I know it sounds cheesy, but 100 banelings will take out any army, any size, and any mech easily). You have to micro banelings against tanks the same way a terran has to micro marines against banelings, you gotta splice and split. Only difference is you are moving towards the base instead of away. And please don't put ultras infront of banelings, its like putting tanks infront of marines. Let the baneligns soak up all the damage and do all the damage then come in with mass lings and ultralisks or mass roach ultralisk or hell just mass ultralisk.
I agree that broodlords would of been your best choice. He had too many thors and not enough vikings to actually do any good against the broods. Even if you made 1 brood and the rest corruptors you could of stopped mining at the good expo.
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If a Terran doesn't attack you at all = Great! Expo, macro all day, and become beast! But really just drone super hardcore, tech up to broodlords, good use for neural parasite is smart, and ultraliskuuu!
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I feel bad for op... He made this thread to help with a situation and gets all this zerg whine bs, and a bunch of people who like muffinftw probably haven't even watched teh replay and don't realize that op was two base ahead of his opponent and DID use ultralisks... Please save your useless comments.
Point tho, some good advice has been given, you have to open yourself up to possibily admitting an alternate stratagey is possible. I'm only going to comment on game 20min(+) I'm a masters level player and I have to tell you some of your decision making was poor. You refuse to admit broods are possible b/c of the two reactor but yet throw ultras into thor which are a soft counter to ultras... the reality is that if he is only on two port all game (think he only had two ports). You could easy to broods and remax on muts or corrupters or whatever you want before he can do jack, you had like 10k 4k, ez pz. Two starports with reactors will NOT outproduce 6 hatches.
Also you were somewhat obssessed with hitting his xpo, I think this let him defend much easier, if you had gone for the main there were less planaterys there and u could hit his production which really hurts terran. You weren't really remaxing either that well, the second some untis died you should remax insta, there should of been like a wave of untis going at the terran, i think at one point his resources were at like 97ish or something after a huge trade, but your untis were like no where to be found... Also you went for a drop which I don't think you even needed to do, if you just kept remaxing like 3 times in a row real quick you woulda broken him, you had this habit of "regrouping" which took a long time mayb cause your rally was far from your base? This was like free production time for the terran to take advantage of... Again even after remaxing you had a habit of going after planaterys, if you had jsut gone for his production i think he woulda been overrun... The repair time on the planatery helped him get in position much more. It was long so I just watched it on 4x/8x and its late here. Really you could of done simple things: better unit comp, better decision making. Also you may think you were hitting him all over the map. but you never really pulled his army waaaaay out of position and hten hit the other side, you kind of did that but gave him 2 minutes in between to remax/get his army back to the middle where he could react.
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I've updated the OP, with some basic points in bold
On February 17 2011 16:49 MuffinFTW wrote:
If a Terran doesn't attack you at all = Great! Expo, macro all day, and become beast! But really just drone super hardcore, tech up to broodlords, good use for neural parasite is smart, and ultraliskuuu!
Thank you, you not only did not watch the rep, you havent even read what i wrote.
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On February 17 2011 16:49 MuffinFTW wrote:
If a Terran doesn't attack you at all = Great! Expo, macro all day, and become beast! But really just drone super hardcore, tech up to broodlords, good use for neural parasite is smart, and ultraliskuuu!
watch the replay. Guy had 100+ drones.
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You scouted him going 2 port vikings with reactors at the same time expanding to his 3rd at around 8 mins. Its impossible for him to have any sizable ground forces. Production of ANY types of your ground army could have killed him up straight or punish him severely. However, u chose to compete with him macro style instead of aggression. That's fine. You could have killed all his army with your mutas if not for the mistake that you didn't magic box. Your macro was so ahead of him (almost double income and gas), tech switch to roaches any time even after your mutas died could have killed him up straight. You did not even have the need to abuse mobility even though his forces were spread out over 4 bases (you have double his food for quite some time + his vikings is part of his food count). Or you could even tech to ultras much earlier than what you did and kill him off. You missed out countless opportunities to kill him off.
Even at late game, you still had a chance to compete with him (although it was hard) as you have way loads of resources. However, you did not pick your fights properly as you throw your waves of army into his deathball camping at chokes created by his PFs. Your army could have crushed his with proper flanking. You should be patient and pick off his base slowly, waiting for a better opportunity.
Edit: You must change your mindset that zerg is best at late game macro. They get crushed by T or P's 3-3 deathball late late game. The strength of zerg is mid-late game where you macro up using your mobility, aggressiveness, map control, at the same time preventing enemies from expanding even further and trading armies to keep their deathball small.
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On February 17 2011 17:22 kamui8899 wrote:
I feel bad for op... He made this thread to help with a situation and gets all this zerg whine bs, and a bunch of people who like muffinftw probably haven't even watched teh replay and don't realize that op was two base ahead of his opponent and DID use ultralisks... Please save your useless comments.
Point tho, some good advice has been given, you have to open yourself up to possibily admitting an alternate stratagey is possible. I'm only going to comment on game 20min(+) I'm a masters level player and I have to tell you some of your decision making was poor. You refuse to admit broods are possible b/c of the two reactor but yet throw ultras into thor which are a soft counter to ultras... the reality is that if he is only on two port all game (think he only had two ports). You could easy to broods and remax on muts or corrupters or whatever you want before he can do jack, you had like 10k 4k, ez pz. Two starports with reactors will NOT outproduce 6 hatches.
Also you were somewhat obssessed with hitting his xpo, I think this let him defend much easier, if you had gone for the main there were less planaterys there and u could hit his production which really hurts terran. You weren't really remaxing either that well, the second some untis died you should remax insta, there should of been like a wave of untis going at the terran, i think at one point his resources were at like 97ish or something after a huge trade, but your untis were like no where to be found... Also you went for a drop which I don't think you even needed to do, if you just kept remaxing like 3 times in a row real quick you woulda broken him, you had this habit of "regrouping" which took a long time mayb cause your rally was far from your base? This was like free production time for the terran to take advantage of... Again even after remaxing you had a habit of going after planaterys, if you had jsut gone for his production i think he woulda been overrun... The repair time on the planatery helped him get in position much more. It was long so I just watched it on 4x/8x and its late here. Really you could of done simple things: better unit comp, better decision making. Also you may think you were hitting him all over the map. but you never really pulled his army waaaaay out of position and hten hit the other side, you kind of did that but gave him 2 minutes in between to remax/get his army back to the middle where he could react.
a somewhat meaningful post, you noticed something wrong indeed, but i think i know what you mean.
Regrouping and hitting his main with reinforcements once i brake trough. I wanted to do that if you go to my first person view you say i really my hatches towards his main. The i 've seen that some of the stuff will go into the other, still wel defended valley, so i reallied to the gold/ left valley. But i've seen there were some tanks on the cliffs. I couldnt tell immadiatly how many, but i just rereallied my units at my half of the map.
And you say i havent attacked for like 2 minutes after losing one army. An ultralisk takes about 70-80 seconds to build and isnt the fastest unit to move trough the map, so 2 minutes feels reasonable.
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Make pure roach, use ovies, drop the whole thing in his main and kill as much production as possible. And tech. Bling bust all his Expo's at the same time.
Remax on ultra ling, remax on pure muta, whichever is more viable. Get full upgrades and get them fast.
Siege tanks are OP, you have to attack somewhere they aren't.
Bling bust is how you kill PF, bling bust them ALL the time provided u have an ECO lead, which you usually should.
Turtling terren is a great thing. It's the terren doing drops, hellion harass, and so on which is unstoppable.
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From my Terran experience you need to keep alternating your composition between broodlord with aa support and pure ultra. Eventually the terran will over- or under-produce vikings and you can take the game.
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Against a large amount of tanks, run a few lings in at a time and let the tanks pick themselves off, or using infested terrans to do the same thing.
I advice you go to a really good Terran or Zerg and ask him for advice, theres so few players around your level (3500) that actually post here or would read it, so youre better off going directly to one of them
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Hi,
I'm _only_ a 3k Diamond Zerg and well... I watched the replay... I am not sure what to think about this Master thing, but I must admit I was SHOCKED.
I'm really sorry if appear to be some kind BM or anything, but in my eyes you and your opponent just played horrendously, I can't even believe you got no clue of why you lost this game. And I use to believe Master Zergs had such divine play compared to me that I never thought this can happen.
What is MY pov about this sad situation :
1) Your opponent FExpanded SO greedily ! He made 1 rax, no bunker, almost no units for about 8-9 minutes and you did NOTHING to punish him. Okay, I too love to macro, go into the late game, etc., but I think both of you were too much focused about that macro thing you even forgot to punish obvious mistakes and such greedy moves. The second I scout this, I go mass speedlings and kill him outright, or at least kill all of the SCVs in his expansion and force CC to lift off, or force him to make defensive structures. As a reactive Zerg, you should be a great macro player, but you should also be able to know when to go all in if shit like this happens. When your opp goes to take a third, okay you sent a handfull of speedlings and deny it, which was well played but too much shy. By this times, at 8-9 minutes you could have sent 50+ speedlings and outrun the shit out of him !
Watch the MrBitter stream, the ZvT coaching : MrBitter plays against a Fast expanding Terran, EGMachine teaches him how to macro. Then, he scouts the terran going a fast third, MrBitter asks him : "what should I do ? Should I expand again ?", and EGMachine, one of the best zergs out there, a good macro player, do you know what he says him ? This : YOU JUST CANNOT LET HIM DO THAT. JUST GO SPEEDLINGS ALL IN !, MrBitter asks : really ? EGMachine : YES. And then he goes mass speedlings, overruns the terran and he just GGs !
Its good to play a macro game, but it must be fair : if you opp tries "cheesing" you by not walling or bunkering or teching fast to 2 starports that quick, just FUCKIN KILL HIM RIGHT NOW.
2) Admittedly, you didnt scout or didnt want to go all in for a reason. Ok, lets assume It was a matter of choice. Well, you see he expands like crazy and tries to mech. You expand a lot, which is good, then SCOUT him : he has litterally NOTHING for such a long time. At 20 minute mark he had 92 pop, WTF ??? Beside his gold and his third at the right which were PF's, his only units are a few tanks and 2-3 thors, few vikings and an undefended natural. Just send 60+ upgraded speedlings and destroy everything that is not PF, then morph into banes and go for PFs !
3) There is a macro problem : the second I see T goes mech, my goal is too reach 3/3 ultra baneling 200/200 which RAPES every single thing T can throw at you. Search for the thread somewhere in this forum, a master Zerg just speeks about this composition. Its just unstoppable. In a normal game, a good terran will send 6 by 6 blue flame hellions raping shitloads of my drones while taking half of the map, and guess what ? I'm still reaching 200/200 upraded ultra banes in 16-18 min with 4-5 bases no matter what, my only fear is that T decides to push and sustain before 15 and micro really well his tanks, and applies constant pressure. In your replay T did not do any real pressure at all, you were almost playing alone for 20 minutes, and guess what ? At 20 min mark he was FUCKIN 92 SUPPLY !!!!!!! YES ! You were 200/200, but in fact you got nothing beside drones, useless mutas, and some zerglings/banes that you didn use to do anything with. Even if you didn want to overrun him by zerglings, 20 min with no pressure means you have 200/200 ultra banes fully upgraded by this time.
Please look at your own replay and see what T gets at this time. NOTHING that is able to stop that.
4) Okay, so you are starting your FIRST ground upgrade (which is carapace) at something like 20 minutes in the game. O_O WTF MAN ! And you are going to tell me ultra bane suck against him ? OF COURSE THEY SUCK MAN, they are naked ! You will not beat any mech army if you are not 3/3 upgraded and dont tell me you didnt have the time or the money to do this.
5) Terran Mech is strong, but really beatable if you know what he is doing. Of course in your case, it was hopeless : he had 30 minutes to take the map uncontested, then buils PFs everywhere, your units were not fully upgraded... of course he rapes you man. If a Terran is playing alone 30 minutes and he takes the whole map and builds 9526874351 PFs everywhere, why should he loose ? What was so amazing in your macro or you skills that makes him deserve to loose this game ? What did you do ? Nydus dropping 2 poor Ultras into his main when he already took the map ? No man, this is not an incredible, game winning move. Your opponent was slow, didn apply pressure, has limited map awarness, you just didn exploit his mistakes nor made any attemps beside waiting until you mine out a billion bases and then start pumping some unupgraded cost inefficient crap and send it to death.
I am sorry being so harsh, but for me the reasons you lose this game were just too obvious, there is so many things you could have done in order to win, it is just insane. I hope I will help anyway.
EDIT : about the viking opening, just go "no-muta-no bane-speedling infestor" strat, run speedlings in the tanks and scvs and own vikings with your infestors. If will save you so much gas you would not believe, you can tech hive out of 3 bases and start your upgrades so early that the speedlings will quicly become a real pain in the ass. And all of this while expanding (just think of your 30+ extra drones you made that could have been 60 2/2 speedlings, watch the rep and see what you could have done with these).
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On February 17 2011 18:36 L3g3nd_ wrote:
Against a large amount of tanks, run a few lings in at a time and let the tanks pick themselves off, or using infested terrans to do the same thing.
I advice you go to a really good Terran or Zerg and ask him for advice, theres so few players around your level (3500) that actually post here or would read it, so youre better off going directly to one of them
i know, but there are a couple of good Zergs such as Morrow, Darkforce, Zelniq who post regurally on the forums, as well as some of the one thousand terrans who are really high up there in masters.
I thought about messaging some of these guys, but honestly, i guess some of them at least are coaches too, so asking for free advices is like bagging, so i thought i'll try my luck this way. I'd love to hear Morrow's take on this, as i remember him palying on Metalo back then with T somewhat similarily, i might send him a PM.
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Well, I´m only 2800 masters but this is what I see: You stayed on mutas too long imo and you let him take his 4th too easy. If you had switched to a ground based army there would have been no way for him to take the 4th with 3 tanks + 2 thors. You should have just tried to outright kill him instead of harrassing with mutas. Once he had the 2 Pfs and the turrets standing there was just no way you could win this.
The only thing you can do is not letting it come to this point.
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I am watching the replay with your point of view.
So,
here is some of my thoughts:
1. At 7:30 you scouted the two reactor airport -> Ton of zerglings (he tries to take his third too) and attack
At that moment if you do that you win. And it is possible you scouted everything he was doing.
2. You always have a lot of minerals piled up. If you used those minerals to make zerglings. He would have never taken his third for example.
3. 17 You lost all you mutalisk to two thors and missile thurets.
Why did you feel vikings where the problem?
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I just started watching the replay and I already see that you basically didn't do ANYTHING aggressive early on and let the Terran take 2 free expos. A good Zerg player will always remember to punish greedy T's. He didn't have any units early game, no bunkers, no siege tanks, just a handful of marines, you could have run over him at the start with like 20 speedlings. It wouldn't even be a big investment.
Edit: That Muta suicide was terrible as well. This replay doesn't even feel like a Masters game.
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@ DjayEl
I appreciate you trying to give feedback, but you see things in black and white, and wrongly many times.
1. For the 100th time. I did not want to go allin even if i could have won with it. I refuse to believe this is the correct, screw that, that this is the only way of winning vs terran. I think we can all agree i piled up a horrendous lead instead of winning right ahead.
2. a few tanks, thors and PFs are more then enough to hold off stuff thrown at it. If you watched the rep you could ahve noticed he was not afraid to use all his scvs for repair and even calling down mules to repair. Again it could have worked, could have been throwing my lead away.
3. My ups were late, that is true, for a long time i thought i could do more with mutas, i realized a bit late i needed my meele ups yesterday, but again, i was still in a lead. I did not know he's at 92 supply, i ve seen he doesnt have enough to be agressive, but is in a good defensive position, so i macroed and teched as best as i could.
4. i'm not sure if you watched the rep, i attacked with good upgrades. My ups were going on constantly, once i started them.
5. My units were fully upgraded. I did not nydus drop 2 ultras, i nydused his main and his new main expo 2-3 times each with cracklings and ultras, not two, there was a time when i sent my entire army trough the nydus.
About the viking opening, what you say, it would have been good then, but if i was doing that, you erally think he would have played the same? Dont be silly please.
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Nobody told you to go all-in. Making 20 zerglings and killing a Terran that takes 2 expos super fast with NO defense is not "all-in".
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On February 17 2011 19:18 Scila wrote:
Nobody told you to go all-in. Making 20 zerglings and killing a Terran that takes 2 expos super fast with NO defense is not "all-in".
it was said i should have went allin, dont say it wasnt, read back. When he tried to took that super fast third i took it out with speedlings. I dont remember any other time where he had no means to defend 20 speedlings, when was this time exactly in your opinion?
and it's way beside the point.
My question was, is there a way to brake terran from 6 base while he's trurtling on 4 and aiming to take his 5th and 6th. I refuse to believe the only way is to kill him off before that. If one race autowins in lategame, the game is terribly broken, and i dont want to believe that.
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On February 17 2011 19:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
My question was, is there a way to brake terran from 6 base while he's trurtling on 4 and aiming to take his 5th and 6th. I refuse to believe the only way is to kill him off before that. If one race autowins in lategame, the game is terribly broken, and i dont want to believe that.
Yes, with brood lords.
But, it's hard because of vikings.
The only way to kill off a turtling Terran without mass suicide is brood lords. They are the only real ranged damage dealer zerg have.
Problem is that they are hard to use because of vikings.
But that's the only thing that really break a terran, because of planetary and repair.
Coupled with infestors (to lock down vikings so they can't retreat) and corruptors, it can work. It's really hard to make work though.
Thors do very little damage to armored air, so brood lords and corruptors are vulnerable to vikings and marines basically.
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@ DjayEl
I appreciate you trying to give feedback, but you see things in black and white, and wrongly many times.
1. For the 100th time. I did not want to go allin even if i could have won with it. I refuse to believe this is the correct, screw that, that this is the only way of winning vs terran. I think we can all agree i piled up a horrendous lead instead of winning right ahead.
2. a few tanks, thors and PFs are more then enough to hold off stuff thrown at it. If you watched the rep you could ahve noticed he was not afraid to use all his scvs for repair and even calling down mules to repair. Again it could have worked, could have been throwing my lead away.
3. My ups were late, that is true, for a long time i thought i could do more with mutas, i realized a bit late i needed my meele ups yesterday, but again, i was still in a lead. I did not know he's at 92 supply, i ve seen he doesnt have enough to be agressive, but is in a good defensive position, so i macroed and teched as best as i could.
4. i'm not sure if you watched the rep, i attacked with good upgrades. My ups were going on constantly, once i started them.
5. My units were fully upgraded. I did not nydus drop 2 ultras, i nydused his main and his new main expo 2-3 times each with cracklings and ultras, not two, there was a time when i sent my entire army trough the nydus.
About the viking opening, what you say, it would have been good then, but if i was doing that, you erally think he would have played the same? Dont be silly please.
1. I am sorry to insist, but I think this a big misunderstanding of yours. You constatnly insist of "not all in" and that you are still "in the lead". In the lead of what ? Actually you were not in the lead of anything. The games does not consist of building SCV/drones as fast as you can with do defensive structures at all, and just compare ressources at 20 minutes and say "hey ! I got more than you ! I win ! Lets rematch". I'm amazed you can't get that. Players play macro to be safe, if you plays macro no matter what and your oppenents know, he will cheat. Like bronze players who say : "hey ! lets no rush until 15min, okay ?". You dont want to kill him outrigh. Good, so If he made ONLY scvs and Command Centers for 30 mintues, THEN started to make units, you would not have done anything to him beside "standard", "good mannered pollitically correct" muta harass at 10 with lil speedling poke from times to times ?
I think you dont want to play the actual game, but a game by your own standards, like macro because its cute, look pro and lead to more interested games. I agree with this 100%, but efficiently-wise the only reason one must go macro instead of all in is safety, because dfensive capabilities of his opp makes all in too much of a gamble, so they wait until opp make a bad move to sneak in.
But what if your opp makes bad move and you did not punish ? If he just knows attack xont come, sure he will not make bunkers, defensive structure, will be building his army much slowly and have a better eco, and you will have no way to win at all in the late game. Why did you opp even made PFs ? Mules would have helped him a lot ! Would have you run in glings if there were no PFs ? Or would you macro no matter what ?
I'm not talking about going all in like, you know really all in, blindly and with no way to recover from. Just test him with 20 glings if you scout ne defenses, see what you do, and if he manage to push you back, do some damage and go back macroing.
2) Everything that was not in the range of PFs was in danger of being ovverrun by constant waves of upgraded speedlings, and not even that much of them. Trading minerals agaist his gas heavy mech is a great economical move at this stage of the game. What do you mean by throwing you r lead away ? You got no lead at all ! Maybe you would have with good trades, but having more stuff into the banks is by no means a lead. Unused money is inexistant money. You must manage your game time so you can spend the money you gather in order to make the best use of it.
3) Again this lead thing.... If you didn know he was on 92 supply, that mean you were scouting bad, period. You did not macroed as well as you could. Macro does not mean pressing v with queens, then s and ddddddddddddd as much as you possibly can. It means making good investments that maximize your economy WHILE being able to delay opp, trade ressources, build up an invincible position. Again, its not about the biggest drone count. Okay, it may be until diamond league, but above you need more game sense.
4-5) You attacked WAY to late. You like to put enphasis on how good is you macro. Again, good macro would be 200/200 upgraded ultra ling at 15-16 min mark if upressured, then attack, remax if needed, take the map, etc. Ofc your units where upgraded 40 min in the game, who cares ?
About viking oppening : of course he would not have played the same, thats exactly my point : you must react to what to see to be able to set up threats yourself and force your opponent to react and not to turtle, or at least invest much more money into early defense. Even if your goal is to macro as hard as you can, just put in your opp mind that you *COULD* be dangerous at any time, that's the way a good zerg should play at high level, imho.
EDIT : just saw your last post : you right, a race should not be able to win in the late game no matter what, and no race would have to kill another one early on in order to survive. BUT you need to FORCE MONEY into defensive structures, not allowing him to be too much greedy. What if you took 3 hatches before pool and got killed ? Would argue it was a silly 2 rax all in ? Of course it would be, and the Terran would have been right for killing you for such a bad play. If he plays good, there is no reason you all in him. I told you to do that so the next time you play against him, he would make mode defenses, making your game way easier. thats called pressure. You must threat him. What if you pressure and scout NO DEFENSE AT ALL ? Like you know 100% you would kill him right know if you can ? Of course you will do that. Thats what I mean by all in, like when you play as safe as possible, and the second you are sure 100% he has lost, you kill him for punishing bad play. Only zerg can do such all in all way long during the game, some call it "the good moment to attack", but when you do your remax thing and never stop attacking thats exactly what you do. If your opp plays good it occurs late, if he plays bad he deserves to dies earlier otherwise his "bad play" can give him an utterly good and unbalanced advantage once the window of vulnerability closes and he can make returns on his greedy investments. And if you allow him to play unsafely, you deserve to loose.
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On February 17 2011 19:38 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +@ DjayEl
I appreciate you trying to give feedback, but you see things in black and white, and wrongly many times.
1. For the 100th time. I did not want to go allin even if i could have won with it. I refuse to believe this is the correct, screw that, that this is the only way of winning vs terran. I think we can all agree i piled up a horrendous lead instead of winning right ahead.
2. a few tanks, thors and PFs are more then enough to hold off stuff thrown at it. If you watched the rep you could ahve noticed he was not afraid to use all his scvs for repair and even calling down mules to repair. Again it could have worked, could have been throwing my lead away.
3. My ups were late, that is true, for a long time i thought i could do more with mutas, i realized a bit late i needed my meele ups yesterday, but again, i was still in a lead. I did not know he's at 92 supply, i ve seen he doesnt have enough to be agressive, but is in a good defensive position, so i macroed and teched as best as i could.
4. i'm not sure if you watched the rep, i attacked with good upgrades. My ups were going on constantly, once i started them.
5. My units were fully upgraded. I did not nydus drop 2 ultras, i nydused his main and his new main expo 2-3 times each with cracklings and ultras, not two, there was a time when i sent my entire army trough the nydus.
About the viking opening, what you say, it would have been good then, but if i was doing that, you erally think he would have played the same? Dont be silly please. 1. I am sorry to insist, but I think this a big misunderstanding of yours. You constatnly insist of "not all in" and that you are still "in the lead". In the lead of what ? Actually you were not in the lead of anything. The games does not consist of building SCV/drones as fast as you can with do defensive structures at all, and just compare ressources at 20 minutes and say "hey ! I got more than you ! I win ! Lets rematch". I'm amazed you can't get that. Players play macro to be safe, if you plays macro no matter what and your oppenents know, he will cheat. Like bronze players who say : "hey ! lets no rush until 15min, okay ?". You dont want to kill him outrigh. Good, so If he made ONLY scvs and Command Centers for 30 mintues, THEN started to make units, you would not have done anything to him beside "standard", "good mannered pollitically correct" muta harass at 10 with lil speedling poke from times to times ? I think you dont want to play the actual game, but a game by your own standards, like macro because its cute, look pro and lead to more interested games. I agree with this 100%, but efficiently-wise the only reason one must go macro instead of all in is safety, because dfensive capabilities of his opp makes all in too much of a gamble, so they wait until opp make a bad move to sneak in. But what if your opp makes bad move and you did not punish ? If he just knows attack xont come, sure he will not make bunkers, defensive structure, will be building his army much slowly and have a better eco, and you will have no way to win at all in the late game. Why did you opp even made PFs ? Mules would have helped him a lot ! Would have you run in glings if there were no PFs ? Or would you macro no matter what ? I'm not talking about going all in like, you know really all in, blindly and with no way to recover from. Just test him with 20 glings if you scout ne defenses, see what you do, and if he manage to push you back, do some damage and go back macroing. 2) Everything that was not in the range of PFs was in danger of being ovverrun by constant waves of upgraded speedlings, and not even that much of them. Trading minerals agaist his gas heavy mech is a great economical move at this stage of the game. What do you mean by throwing you r lead away ? You got no lead at all ! Maybe you would have with good trades, but having more stuff into the banks is by no means a lead. Unused money is inexistant money. You must manage your game time so you can spend the money you gather in order to make the best use of it. 3) Again this lead thing.... If you didn know he was on 92 supply, that mean you were scouting bad, period. You did not macroed as well as you could. Macro does not mean pressing v with queens, then s and ddddddddddddd as much as you possibly can. It means making good investments that maximize your economy WHILE being able to delay opp, trade ressources, build up an invincible position. Again, its not about the biggest drone count. Okay, it may be until diamond league, but above you need more game sense. 4-5) You attacked WAY to late. You like to put enphasis on how good is you macro. Again, good macro would be 200/200 upgraded ultra ling at 15-16 min mark if upressured, then attack, remax if needed, take the map, etc. Ofc your units where upgraded 40 min in the game, who cares ? About viking oppening : of course he would not have played the same, thats exactly my point : you must react to what to see to be able to set up threats yourself and force your opponent to react and not to turtle, or at least invest much more money into early defense. Even if your goal is to macro as hard as you can, just put in your opp mind that you *COULD* be dangerous at any time, that's the way a good zerg should play at high level, imho.
i'm not sure anymore if you are serious or trolling. First i believed it's serious, but i have doubts now.
Everything which was not in range of PFs were undefended, that leaves, what, about half of the map, my half.
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I'm not talking about 30 minute mark, but at 20 min when he got 92 supplies and 2 PFs and basically NOTHING consistant enough beside that !
You really cant undestant what I say ? I spend 2 hours to watch you rep, make good advice, and all you can say is that I am trolling ?
You said you need advice from Morrow and Zelniq, etc., do you really mean what you say ? How can you be so arrogant ? Why are you posting there so ? Just PM those guys.
I am a crappy high diamond player and I am able to point every of your mistakes. All that I said is right, cant just a renowed Zerg player come here and tell him this ? This is becoming a joke.
Do you want me to send replays of mine beating exactly the same strat with what I said ? Or maybe I am too crappy of a player for you to spend your precious time learning something good from me ?
I think I will just stop losing my time there.
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On February 17 2011 20:01 DjayEl wrote:
I'm not talking about 30 minute mark, but at 20 min when he got 92 supplies and 2 PFs and basically NOTHING consistant enough beside that !
You really cant undestant what I say ? I spend 2 hours to watch you rep, make good advice, and all you can say is that I am trolling ?
You said you need advice from Morrow and Zelniq, etc., do you really mean what you say ? How can you be so arrogant ? Why are you posting there so ? Just PM those guys.
I am a crappy high diamond player and I am able to point every of your mistakes. All that I said is right, cant just a renowed Zerg player come here and tell him this ? This is becoming a joke.
Do you want me to send replays of mine beating exactly the same strat with what I said ? Or maybe I am too crappy of a player for you to spend your precious time learning something good from me ?
I think I will just stop losing my time there.
i said it would be very nice if those guys would answe, BUT i cant expect them to do so.
As i stated in my first response, i'm glad you are trying to give feedback, but i repedately said i m satisfied with the position i got myself into, and you are constantly stressing the idea i should have went and kill him off and i scouted poorly. From what i could scout was that i can focus more on eco and tech, i canot count how many units he has he got turrets all over the place. I would have liked people giving suggestion past the 25th minute mark. And from that point your advices are not very helpful, as the omnipresense of staticdefence makes lings useless, among other things. You said my ups were late, that's a good observation, and i agreed upon it, but i still believe this wasnt or at least should not have been game changing at that point.
If you have reps at beating this kind of thing done properly, please do so, im sure you could kill off greedy terrans with lots of speedlings, not intrested in that. Half map vs Half map, go ahead, post those, regardless of that not being high master level.
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200/200 army and larvae and money for another 3-4 of those, just go suicide 3-4 armies into his, it's not all in when you can remax before he can unsiege to come after you - outside of his PF wall protection as a bonus for you.
If you had 2 worms popped why didn't you send everything you had in those, crippling production/supply limit for a bit while you can instantly recreate (ok 1 minute but it takes him more than that to reinforce/rebuild supply). Then send another wave and another. I really don't think that when people say keep your minerals low they mean just at the start of the game. Bank enough for your next switch, decide where to attack and waste 130 or so supply, rebuild, decide again, go back in. As long as you manage to cripple his production/supply by like 20-30%, every new attack will do more damage, will hit harder and will just slowly kill him.
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From what i could scout was that i can focus more on eco and tech
Okay, macro and teck, uh ?
Okay I am providing you with a replay. Since you didnt not want to have any advice before 25 minute mark, I had hard time finding one of my ZvMech were I was late enough not to be maxed at 16-18, fortunately I found one, but I'm still sorry because I could not go as far as 25 minutes.
Actually in this game I played quite bad, anyway the game ending situation happens at 20th minute mark, which should be enough for my demonstration.
Here is the file : files.me.com/jeanlucmetz/018jr7
I dont care my opp didnt do exactly the same thing as yours, or anything different, because we are speaking of expanding Terran turtling builds and almost no harass of any sort occured form T in both games (I got some minor harassment, you undergone some 2 hellion poke as well, it does not count for real pressure, I mean it did not really impact your macro nor mine in theses games. Basically, we both did whatever we wanted during 20 minutes or so because these were similar situations were we both could predict that Terran won't move out until late).
I dont want to comment on my play (bad or not), only to open the army tab and go straight to the 20th minute mark.
When you are at 20 minutes, stop completely the replay. Please note my food count, what units I have and what is the food count of my opponent. Please click on a zergling or and ultra and see what are their upgrades.
Then, go back to your replay at 20th minute mark and press army tab. At this time your opponent had exactly 2 PFs, and a 92 food count. Check your upgrades as well.
Now imagine my army (the one I got at 18-20 minutes), with its upgrades, walking over the same exact army your opponent had at the exact same time. If needed, do this in the unit tester. You can even think of the most horrendous manner of engagement, like a big choke, being shot by a PF in the meantime, or any bad positionning you can think of (lets assume you opp had incredible positionning, which he obviously had not, but lets assume it).
Now please, be open minded, and sincerely tell me if you think there is a single, slightest possibility for your opponent not to be totally overrun as well as getting his PFs crushed in the same time.
Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance. I just want you to watch the two reps at the 20th minute mark because 20 minutes are a reasonable time when you can start thinking about doing some huge attack, even if we are talking about 2 masters playing a safe, macro game.
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@Geo.Rion
First of all, just calm down because you're right: a TONS of comments to your thread are PURE trolls.
The fact is that, as you said, you had the lead, clearly, obviously, you had more expos, map control, tech, upgrades, etc ... in SC1 the game was just over at 15 min mark or something.
The problem is that, it's NOT SC1, it's SC2, a game which lack of "finish him" combos. As a Zerg you don't have any crazy BUT expansive combination of units which just destroy anything and allow you to end the game as soon as you have a decent macro advantage (as you had).
Your clause analysis is fine: you've just tried anything, and even if there are good counters to that camping Terran, those are NOT cost efficient AT ALL. You will just lose a tons of units/resources to kill some thors, maybe a PF or 2, then what? Nothing, he just rebuild and HE now has the advantage. Going for Broodlords would have been the same: a HUGE investment of min/gas so he can switch easily to Viks and blast your army. Same for infestors, was totally useless in that situation.
What is so crazy is that i'm pretty sure of what was going on in your head at the mid-game mark, you were like: "Ok he's camping, i should care for the counter but also be agressive so he does not expand that much, i'm going to avoid frontal attack and drop/nydus, etc ..." which was the right thing to do.
So, even having the macro advantage (more bases), the micro advantage (you had more apms) and the knowledge advantage (you were expecting that kind of play), you just couldn't do anything.
This is totally stupid. But as usual, some people will come here and say that: "the game is too young", "let's wait some new strategies from pro", "you should have ...", "why no Broodlords, or infestors, or mass overseers", but NOONE will give you the unstoppable combo you should be able to use with 10k/5k resources, because it just does not exist.
To beat a gay strategy, you need a gay strategy: i would have used mass creep, then mass spines/spores attack (everywhere on the map), and mass Broodlords/hydras harass. Absurd (you have to play passive while having the lead) but more efficient than sacrificing all your units with a classic attack, whatever (useless) units you have.
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This game is not balanced around the late late late game scenario. It takes into consideration both sides macro up while trading army in the process. Terran and Toss units are just more cost (& food) efficient late game. Adding to the fact that both terran and toss has better static defences, at the same time using structures to modify the terrain to their own advantages (more chokes).
If you really want an answer to when your situation really occurs, my best bet would be spending all your resources on 50-60 magic boxed mutas. Vikings and thors anti air capabilities are pitiful and air units solve your concave issues.
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On February 17 2011 20:40 DjayEl wrote:Okay, macro and teck, uh ? Okay I am providing you with a replay. Since you didnt not want to have any advice before 25 minute mark, I had hard time finding one of my ZvMech were I was late enough not to be maxed at 16-18, fortunately I found one, but I'm still sorry because I could not go as far as 25 minutes. Actually in this game I played quite bad, anyway the game ending situation happens at 20th minute mark, which should be enough for my demonstration. Here is the file : files.me.com/jeanlucmetz/018jr7 I dont care my opp didnt do exactly the same thing as yours, or anything different, because we are speaking of expanding Terran turtling builds and almost no harass of any sort occured form T in both games (I got some minor harassment, you undergone some 2 hellion poke as well, it does not count for real pressure, I mean it did not really impact your macro nor mine in theses games. Basically, we both did whatever we wanted during 20 minutes or so because these were similar situations were we both could predict that Terran won't move out until late). I dont want to comment on my play (bad or not), only to open the army tab and go straight to the 20th minute mark. When you are at 20 minutes, stop completely the replay. Please note my food count, what units I have and what is the food count of my opponent. Please click on a zergling or and ultra and see what are their upgrades. Then, go back to your replay at 20th minute mark and press army tab. At this time your opponent had exactly 2 PFs, and a 92 food count. Check your upgrades as well. Now imagine my army (the one I got at 18-20 minutes), with its upgrades, walking over the same exact army your opponent had at the exact same time. If needed, do this in the unit tester. You can even think of the most horrendous manner of engagement, like a big choke, being shot by a PF in the meantime, or any bad positionning you can think of (lets assume you opp had incredible positionning, which he obviously had not, but lets assume it). Now please, be open minded, and sincerely tell me if you think there is a single, slightest possibility for your opponent not to be totally overrun as well as getting his PFs crushed in the same time. Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance. I just want you to watch the two reps at the 20th minute mark because 20 minutes are a reasonable time when you can start thinking about doing some huge attack, even if we are talking about 2 masters playing a safe, macro game.
well thank you for posting that, i watched it and it is perfectly irrelevant. He had 0 PFs in your way as well as he put his army out there and waited till you just surround it and kill it.
You had nice upgrades, which is cool, but i couldnt possibly start my upgrades as early as you did, as i needed all my gas from 3 base on dealing with his mass viking, maintaining mapcontrol and air supperiority.
"Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance."
thank, you that's what you should have wrote down to begin with, i'm looking for solutions at that stage, if you dont know any, thank you for watching it, and end of story. I personally never said it is a matter of balance, i stated i felt helpless.
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As a Zerg you don't have any crazy BUT expansive combination of units which just destroy anything and allow you to end the game as soon as you have a decent macro advantage (as you had).
YES YOU HAVE ! Please be merciful, watch my replay... I think i'm gonna cry :D
Ultra / banes RAAAPE everything Terran has, period. Ofc if you wait the game for 30+ minutes he will ust build 20 PF and you're done, but we are not speaking about late game anymore ! 15-20 minutes IS late game, anything else is VERY late game and nobody should wait until more that 25 minutes to play then, or begin upgrades at 20 mn ! If a game goes in this stage its because players started trading armies way before and because the games keeps going on a even state.
NO pro player never ever did nothing until 25min or maybe for joking, trading begin at 15mn maximum. The game is balanced because of timings, if you throw away all timings with so much game time that every timing become irrelevant, of course the game is not "balanced" but its not the way its supposed to be.
3/3 ultra bane is so powerfuls its insane, and the reason its powerful is you can get them SO FAST if you just open standard muta ling bling, then cut the mutas and expand as soon as you notice turtling. Its transitions so good its just insane, I never loose to any T turtling with that unless they manage to put insane harassement/pressure or try a desperate push before game hits 16 minutes. There is no way to wait more till you are 3/3 and have 5+ bases.
Of course if he builds 50 PFs his army is not 200/200 anymore as he have lot of "static units" that does count for food, but who waits that long ??
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Wow, that was certainly an interesting game to watch! Of course, I think there were early-midgame timings which could have won you the game, but it appears that you both were looking to play the long macro game.
So, I think the key timing is before your opponent splits the map and fortifies it with PFs and turrets. Before that, drops and nydus play is still possible. I thought it was pretty cool when you were doing the nydus worms one after another on opposite sides of the map. However, a few things you could do to make it even more effective considering you had so much money:
1. multiple nydus worms: so multiple units can exit at once
2. mass stationary defences: you had 12k minerals and 100+ drones, instead of running excess drones into the tank line, why no make them into spores and spines?
3. infestors: let's say you nydus into one end of his map, and out come your ultras, hydras, etc. He pull his mass thors to deal with it. If he pulls all of his thors, you do a bit of damage, then run away and exit out the nydus on the other side of his map. If he pulls just a few thors, you NP 5-6 of them and your army will crush it. This way, he has to make a judgement each time you make an attack like that.
4. Brood lords: yes, I understand he has vikings, which are extremely good at countering brood lords. However, with infestors, you can lock vikings down if he chases too far. If you made a lot of spore crawlers with your excess drones, and have excess queens not needed for larvae, you might even be able to do a slow broodlord/spore crawler push down the middle. You can also fly a few groups of 2-3 corruptors to random spots on the map, morph them into brood lords and just let your opponent deal with them. This puts a tax on his attention, and in the meantime you can do your main attack. The best thing about broodlords is that when you engage tank lines, each shot causes a tank to blow up from friendly fire. Alternatively, infested terrans thrown from infestors can have the same effect (but it costs mana).
Ultimately, I think throwing mass ultras was not the solution, considering the thor+tank heavy composition, plus the PFs.
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On February 17 2011 21:27 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +As a Zerg you don't have any crazy BUT expansive combination of units which just destroy anything and allow you to end the game as soon as you have a decent macro advantage (as you had). YES YOU HAVE ! Please be merciful, watch my replay... I think i'm gonna cry :D Ultra / banes RAAAPE everything Terran has, period. Ofc if you wait the game for 30+ minutes he will ust build 20 PF and you're done, but we are not speaking about late game anymore ! 15-20 minutes IS late game, anything else is VERY late game and nobody should wait until more that 25 minutes to play then, or begin upgrades at 20 mn ! If a game goes in this stage its because players started trading armies way before and because the games keeps going on a even state. NO pro player never ever did nothing until 25min or maybe for joking, trading begin at 15mn maximum. The game is balanced because of timings, if you throw away all timings with so much game time that every timing become irrelevant, of course the game is not "balanced" but its not the way its supposed to be. 3/3 ultra bane is so powerfuls its insane, and the reason its powerful is you can get them SO FAST if you just open standard muta ling bling, then cut the mutas and expand as soon as you notice turtling. Its transitions so good its just insane, I never loose to any T turtling with that unless they manage to put insane harassement/pressure or try a desperate push before game hits 16 minutes. There is no way to wait more till you are 3/3 and have 5+ bases. Of course if he builds 50 PFs his army is not 200/200 anymore as he have lot of "static units" that does count for food, but who waits that long ??
As I said, this is NOT COST EFFICIENT: how many banelings to kill just ONE Planetary ? Not even talking about the fact that if you fail attacking, you'll prolly lost to the ultimate "press A button counter". His replay also show how Ultras were useless against Thors, i mean, again, not cost efficient. Terran has the stronger static non-food unit (PF), and the ability to spend extra minerals repairing while being 200/200. So once he's supply blocked, he becomes more and more powerfull; it's the total opposite for Zerg.
ps: you really think that you're a genius using ultra/bane? Yes most of the Zergs know about it, we've all tried that, it's powerful, but that is not the topic.
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well thank you for posting that, i watched it and it is perfectly irrelevant. He had 0 PFs in your way as well as he put his army out there and waited till you just surround it and kill it.
You had nice upgrades, which is cool, but i couldnt possibly start my upgrades as early as you did, as i needed all my gas from 3 base on dealing with his mass viking, maintaining mapcontrol and air supperiority.
"Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance."
thank, you that's what you should have wrote down to begin with, i'm looking for solutions at that stage, if you dont know any, thank you for watching it, and end of story. I personally never said it is a matter of balance, i stated i felt helpless.
Sorry man, I didnt told you to compare my compo to MY opponent who didn have PFs. I asked you to see my compo and try it against 2 PFs and what your opponent get at this time. Man, please ! He got 92 food !! You could add 2, 3 or 4 PF if does not change anything for a 200/200 upgraded ultra bane ! Please why dont u try in the unit tester. Try. He just cant do anything ! I promise.
And yes you can start upgrades, why dont you care for air control at all ?
When I see T open mass viking as didn even bother to go mutas as it is too late. I just do 4-5 infestors to prevent harassement, and thats the only gas spent I got for 15mn !
You look at solutions of a stage taht does not exist because no players wait for that long, actually long games happen because of even trades, NEVER EVER because players refuses to attack before 25 minutes. Whatch Idra vs Idontrememberwho games in the beta, where the guy has shitloads of PFs constantly dying to Ultras Idra's made, which die instantly after, then ressupplied. And Idra wins after a very long time, because he took the lead INT TIMING and in putting constant pressure, not a lead of minerals and staying totally passive.
A'm amazed you dont understand that.
You know what ? I know who you are. You're a believer. You like theses guys who just want to believe something because it makes them comfortable and when reality contradict their believes, they just reject it and deny. Yourself said in the OP that you wanted to believe something, at first glance I didnt get exaclty what you meant,but here it is. I should not have lost my time.
Its the hard truth, it its serve any purpose : you CANT win with Zerg in a veeeery late game when timings vanishes and T just do anything he wants for too much time. The game is not balanced the way a zerg can win not punishing T, never ever, just by having an economic lead. Its not true, its not the reality. Your reasonning behind Zerg is partially correct, but it becomes wrong at a point.
To show you the divergence, lets talk about the infinite, cause it makes many thinks appear : imagine you have INFITINE ressources and INFINITE space and INFINITE time, e.g a situations where the timings disapear. Its not a RTS anymore. In this case, you got the best possible super strong 200/200 army witch maxed upgrades and Terran has the same. You got infinite hatcheries and he got infinite building structures.
Guess what ? You screwed. Because he can put infinite PFs and you just infinite Spines, and spines did not do anything to a T maxed army while PF count as actual fighting units. So everytime you fight, you will just get decimated if you take PF into account, and no matter how much you are rebuilding, there will be no divergence in ressoucees, or maybe one can demonstrate you will loose them at a higher rate than Terran. So its tends to be zero versus infinite in favor of T.
Why is this ? Because of the 200/200 supply limit. Everything else grows bigger, but you only can have 200/200 limited army, and that it becom less and less useful while Terran builds static defenses.
BUT NO ONE DONT CARE. Because in an actual game, with actual timings, Terran CANNOT set up a bigger army that ultra ling at the time Zerg attacks and have in the meatime that many PF that the game becomes imbalanced.
Therefore your premise is just wrong, and you dont seek advice to an actual game issue. You seek people who believe in the same fantasies you do about this game, and you are just disrespectful of people's time and brain content, which is arrogant and will lead you nowhere to become a better player, which would help you a lot.
Enough said, I was trapped by the master thing and thought about it being a true discussion, I didn think master scrubs actually exist.
Goodbye.
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On February 17 2011 21:47 DjayEl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +well thank you for posting that, i watched it and it is perfectly irrelevant. He had 0 PFs in your way as well as he put his army out there and waited till you just surround it and kill it.
You had nice upgrades, which is cool, but i couldnt possibly start my upgrades as early as you did, as i needed all my gas from 3 base on dealing with his mass viking, maintaining mapcontrol and air supperiority.
"Ofc if you wait 45min when he has 10+ PF standing all around, this is another story. And yes, by this time I think you cant win anymore, but I dont know if at this stage it has anything to do with balance."
thank, you that's what you should have wrote down to begin with, i'm looking for solutions at that stage, if you dont know any, thank you for watching it, and end of story. I personally never said it is a matter of balance, i stated i felt helpless. Sorry man, I didnt told you to compare my compo to MY opponent who didn have PFs. I asked you to see my compo and try it against 2 PFs and what your opponent get at this time. Man, please ! He got 92 food !! You could add 2, 3 or 4 PF if does not change anything for a 200/200 upgraded ultra bane ! Please why dont u try in the unit tester. Try. He just cant do anything ! I promise. And yes you can start upgrades, why dont you care for air control at all ? When I see T open mass viking as didn even bother to go mutas as it is too late. I just do 4-5 infestors to prevent harassement, and thats the only gas spent I got for 15mn ! You look at solutions of a stage taht does not exist because no players wait for that long, actually long games happen because of even trades, NEVER EVER because players refuses to attack before 25 minutes. Whatch Idra vs Idontrememberwho games in the beta, where the guy has shitloads of PFs constantly dying to Ultras Idra's made, which die instantly after, then ressupplied. And Idra wins after a very long time, because he took the lead INT TIMING and in putting constant pressure, not a lead of minerals and staying totally passive. A'm amazed you dont understand that. You know what ? I know who you are. You're a believer. You like theses guys who just want to believe something because it makes them comfortable and when reality contradict their believes, they just reject it and deny. Yourself said in the OP that you wanted to believe something, at first glance I didnt get exaclty what you meant,but here it is. I should not have lost my time. Its the hard truth, it its serve any purpose : you CANT win with Zerg in a veeeery late game when timings vanishes and T just do anything he wants for too much time. The game is not balanced the way a zerg can win not punishing T, never ever, just by having an economic lead. Its not true, its not the reality. Your reasonning behind Zerg is partially correct, but it becomes wrong at a point. To show you the divergence, lets talk about the infinite, cause it makes many thinks appear : imagine you have INFITINE ressources and INFINITE space and INFINITE time, e.g a situations where the timings disapear. Its not a RTS anymore. In this case, you got the best possible super strong 200/200 army witch maxed upgrades and Terran has the same. You got infinite hatcheries and he got infinite building structures. Guess what ? You screwed. Because he can put infinite PFs and you just infinite Spines, and spines did not do anything to a T maxed army while PF count as actual fighting units. So everytime you fight, you will just get decimated if you take PF into account, and no matter how much you are rebuilding, there will be no divergence in ressoucees, or maybe one can demonstrate you will loose them at a higher rate than Terran. So its tends to be zero versus infinite in favor of T. Why is this ? Because of the 200/200 supply limit. Everything else grows bigger, but you only can have 200/200 limited army, and that it becom less and less useful while Terran builds static defenses. BUT NO ONE DONT CARE. Because in an actual game, with actual timings, Terran CANNOT set up a bigger army that ultra ling at the time Zerg attacks and have in the meatime that many PF that the game becomes imbalanced. Therefore your premise is just wrong, and you dont seek advice to an actual game issue. You seek people who believe in the same fantasies you do about this game, and you are just disrespectful of people's time and brain content, which is arrogant and will lead you nowhere to become a better player, which would help you a lot. Enough said, I was trapped by the master thing and thought about it being a true discussion, I didn think master scrubs actually exist. Goodbye.
goodbye, use less capslook in the future
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On February 17 2011 21:27 DjayEl wrote:
Show nested quote +
YES YOU HAVE ! Please be merciful, watch my replay... I think i'm gonna cry :D
Ultra / banes RAAAPE everything Terran has, period. Ofc if you wait the game for 30+ minutes he will ust build 20 PF and you're done, but we are not speaking about late game anymore ! 15-20 minutes IS late game, anything else is VERY late game and nobody should wait until more that 25 minutes to play then, or begin upgrades at 20 mn ! If a game goes in this stage its because players started trading armies way before and because the games keeps going on a even state.
NO pro player never ever did nothing until 25min or maybe for joking, trading begin at 15mn maximum. The game is balanced because of timings, if you throw away all timings with so much game time that every timing become irrelevant, of course the game is not "balanced" but its not the way its supposed to be.
3/3 ultra bane is so powerfuls its insane, and the reason its powerful is you can get them SO FAST if you just open standard muta ling bling, then cut the mutas and expand as soon as you notice turtling. Its transitions so good its just insane, I never loose to any T turtling with that unless they manage to put insane harassement/pressure or try a desperate push before game hits 16 minutes. There is no way to wait more till you are 3/3 and have 5+ bases.
Of course if he builds 50 PFs his army is not 200/200 anymore as he have lot of "static units" that does count for food, but who waits that long ??
As I said, this is NOT COST EFFICIENT: how many banelings to kill just ONE Planetary ? Not even talking about the fact that if you fail attacking, you'll prolly lost to the ultimate "press A button counter". His replay also show how Ultras were useless against Thors, i mean, again, not cost efficient. Terran has the stronger static non-food unit (PF), and the ability to spend extra minerals repairing while being 200/200. So once he's supply blocked, he becomes more and more powerfull; it's the total opposite for Zerg.
ps: you really think that you're a genius using ultra/bane? Yes most of the Zergs know about it, we've all tried that, it's powerful, but that is not the topic.
Please gimme a break...
Who talks about cost efficiency here ???? I'm talking about getting a 3/3 maxed army at 16 that CRUSHES through the terran compo provided by his replay and ending the game right there. The OP himself told us he wants anything at any cost, as he said he has sooo many ressources it didnt event matter. Im not saying ultra bane is invicible, he just say that it is POSSIBLE to make an army that would have raped the compo showed in the replay, thus proving that playing better is actually possible, and showing an expemple of how could this have been done, not even saying it is the best solution.
Did you watch MY replay ? "His replays shows blabla..." all it shows is a WEAK terran army at 20 minutes (92 supply and, YES, 2 PFs) that could have easily be crushed by an army composition build by a non master, crappy, noobish diamond-only Zerg that I am.
So as soon as 2 PFs are build, a Zerg is done, even if a terran as a poor 50 food supply ? Gimme a break man, gimme a fuckin break, watch my rep !!!!
I dont believe im actually arguing about this.... I'm starting go completely crazy !
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Make 200 zerglings, turn them all into banelings.
I call it, The Green Tide
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A couple of things that i'm going to point out.
17 min mark - whyd you suicide those mutas against those thor/viking/missileturrets? terrible terrible decision making.
why did you make so many drones? You had 114 drones at one point in the game, that's about 40 larvae that you could have used on units. It's only efficient to have ~70-80 drones at a time. There's a thread about it somewhere in TL. Building a trustfund of 10k wont do you any good, if you had used all of that money at the 20-25 minute mark, you'd have won and not made this topic.
Why did it take you so long to tech up? Hydralisks would have had a kickass time against those thors/vikings. So would brood lords/corruptors.
What was the point of dropping ultras when he has like 20-30 vikings right there? O_O he killed off most of those overlords (37 minute mark) and you also lost the ultras. If you actually wanted to make use of overlord dropping why didn't you baneling bust his workers? I doubt PF can hit air units. There is a crapload of space where the overlords could have snuck in from at the 4-5oclock base (one with a crapload of turrets), and theres only one turret defending the space behind the one on the right of that base. o_o You've scouted all of that too.
The second you went from 200/200 to 124/94 and just continued to make a crapload of ultralisks was when you actually died.
I think you should revisit the basics, watch some day9>newbie-tuesday and stuff.
Oh yeah, just as a point of reference, I'm a bronze league player struggling to get out of it.
O_O
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On February 17 2011 22:02 [TA]eccentric wrote:
A couple of things that i'm going to point out.
17 min mark - whyd you suicide those mutas against those thor/viking/missileturrets? terrible terrible decision making.
why did you make so many drones? You had 114 drones at one point in the game, that's about 40 larvae that you could have used on units. It's only efficient to have ~70-80 drones at a time. There's a thread about it somewhere in TL. Building a trustfund of 10k wont do you any good, if you had used all of that money at the 20-25 minute mark, you'd have won and not made this topic.
Why did it take you so long to tech up? Hydralisks would have had a kickass time against those thors/vikings. So would brood lords/corruptors.
What was the point of dropping ultras when he has like 20-30 vikings right there? O_O he killed off most of those overlords (37 minute mark) and you also lost the ultras. If you actually wanted to make use of overlord dropping why didn't you baneling bust his workers? I doubt PF can hit air units. There is a crapload of space where the overlords could have snuck in from at the 4-5oclock base (one with a crapload of turrets), and theres only one turret defending the space behind the one on the right of that base. o_o You've scouted all of that too.
The second you went from 200/200 to 124/94 and just continued to make a crapload of ultralisks was when you actually died.
I think you should revisit the basics, watch some day9>newbie-tuesday and stuff.
Oh yeah, just as a point of reference, I'm a bronze league player struggling to get out of it.
O_O
i dont understand why people are so agressive about this whole thing.
1. i suicided those mutalisks. So? what exactly should have i done with them, they did what i needed tehm for, namely harass and deny the vikings, and get terribly ahead. At that point killing 2 thors and a couple if vikings was an OK thing to do even if terribly cost infefficient.
2. i overdroned, and i suicided lots of it very soon, you could notice i was down to below 80 well before the game was over.
4. it took long as i aws massing air to deal with him and get ahead in economy. I used hydralisks not tons of it but i always had around some.
5. i didnt drop them per se i elevated them to the highgroundto avoid some PFs, and he did nto have 30 vikings, what are you talking about, and if you think he had that many and drops were a bad idea why are you saying i should have dropped banes on his workers, which means a longer drop-path.
I watched almost every Day9 episode starting from the first one, the nubey thusdays i find very detrimential actually as awesome as day9 is he gives a lot of bad advices too, and besides that im quit confident my zerg is stronger then his, even if his analytical game understanding is way above mine. I still watch them an try to learn from them, where i can. Some of day9's basic advices:
get more ahead
dont attack when you feel you re in a good position, tech or focus on eco
abuse immobility with drops and nyduses
Sounds familiar? Yeah, good advices, and i was trying to implement them.
You are like the 5th person in here who suggests that i simply suck at this game, very depressing considering the average skill level of these posters.
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broodlord infestor is a nice way dealing with this on meta, you can take your gold he can't. And since the zerg losses are a bit smaller then the terran losses you will win. (especially since he needs sensor towers against harassment while you simply have creep tumors which are free)
The fight at the gold works nice as the terran can't magic box, or he will get a few vikings fungaled for no infestor kills. if he clumps up on max range he will lose all his vikings for a few infestors, if he uses only a few vikings transfuse will negate the damage. If he adds thors to guard his siege tank advance neural parasite will do the job. The little advantage the terran has in ground range doesn't help him against the broodlords, its a real issue, because the terran defenses are so expensiv that you will end up loosing because he could invest more into pure army.
Its beating the turtle with a better more effectiv turtle hehe. I think nukes would make it able to advance little by little but that are also ressources. These situations happen to rarely so it will take a long time to see who is ahead, right now it seems to be the zerg, but that may be only due to the fact that the terran doesn't go away from his mech+ viking. And the zerg abuses the his strong defense position to regain energy.
At the moment i just wish pdds would stop broodlings, as i only have my nukes/ suicide ghosts and suicide seeker throwing ravens to gain ground xD. And at the end i run out of ressources because my defenses were so expensiv, while is run away and setup a bit behind heh.
I guess the terran has to control an opponents side expansion for some time so at the end the zerg will run out instead of the terran heh.
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On February 17 2011 22:19 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 22:02 [TA]eccentric wrote:
A couple of things that i'm going to point out.
17 min mark - whyd you suicide those mutas against those thor/viking/missileturrets? terrible terrible decision making.
why did you make so many drones? You had 114 drones at one point in the game, that's about 40 larvae that you could have used on units. It's only efficient to have ~70-80 drones at a time. There's a thread about it somewhere in TL. Building a trustfund of 10k wont do you any good, if you had used all of that money at the 20-25 minute mark, you'd have won and not made this topic.
Why did it take you so long to tech up? Hydralisks would have had a kickass time against those thors/vikings. So would brood lords/corruptors.
What was the point of dropping ultras when he has like 20-30 vikings right there? O_O he killed off most of those overlords (37 minute mark) and you also lost the ultras. If you actually wanted to make use of overlord dropping why didn't you baneling bust his workers? I doubt PF can hit air units. There is a crapload of space where the overlords could have snuck in from at the 4-5oclock base (one with a crapload of turrets), and theres only one turret defending the space behind the one on the right of that base. o_o You've scouted all of that too.
The second you went from 200/200 to 124/94 and just continued to make a crapload of ultralisks was when you actually died.
I think you should revisit the basics, watch some day9>newbie-tuesday and stuff.
Oh yeah, just as a point of reference, I'm a bronze league player struggling to get out of it.
O_O i dont understand why people are so agressive about this whole thing. 1. i suicided those mutalisks. So? what exactly should have i done with them, they did what i needed tehm for, namely harass and deny the vikings, and get terribly ahead. At that point killing 2 thors and a couple if vikings was an OK thing to do even if terribly cost infefficient. 2. i overdroned, and i suicided lots of it very soon, you could notice i was down to below 80 well before the game was over. 4. it took long as i aws massing air to deal with him and get ahead in economy. I used hydralisks not tons of it but i always had around some. 5. i didnt drop them per se i elevated them to the highgroundto avoid some PFs, and he did nto have 30 vikings, what are you talking about, and if you think he had that many and drops were a bad idea why are you saying i should have dropped banes on his workers, which means a longer drop-path. I watched almost every Day9 episode starting from the first one, the nubey thusdays i find very detrimential actually as awesome as day9 is he gives a lot of bad advices too, and besides that im quit confident my zerg is stronger then his, even if his analytical game understanding is way above mine. I still watch them an try to learn from them, where i can. Some of day9's basic advices: get more ahead dont attack when you feel you re in a good position, tech or focus on eco abuse immobility with drops and nyduses Sounds familiar? Yeah, good advices, and i was trying to implement them. You are like the 5th person in here who suggests that i simply suck at this game, very depressing considering the average skill level of these posters.
1) At the time you suicided those mutas, you could have gone back into his main and picked off some depots, done some more micro to kill SCVs, etc. You shouldnt just kill your units because they've done their job. If you're 7rring, will you just suicide your roaches after killing a few workers and making sure he/she's made a crapload of static defence? If you're speedling expanding will you just let your speedlings die if you scout banshee/viking play and have to adjust your tech accordingly? durr no.
2) See theres two mistakes in that, and both of them could be solved by fixing the initial one - dont overdrone. Even i've already reached a point where I know whether to drone or build units.
3) you dont have a 3 >_>
4) Having hydras to deal with thors and having hydras to pick off random vikings that wander into your base to scout are completely different things. If you had made more creep tumours (which would have been very easy to do seeing as all 6 of your queens had near max energy at all times - if not max), the hydras would have been even more effective, bait a thor, kill it. Bait another one, kill it. etc.
4.5) you say that you dont like to all-in yet you're massing air units? why? to suicide them? oh wait...
5) 30 = exaggeration. Yeah, ok I get that. but you ran them through a path where he had his army posistioned. -_- Running them through an army and winding them through the back are completely different things.
Oh yeah, another advice day9 gives is "if your opponent is dicking around, just go fucking kill him".
I'm not suggesting that you suck at this game, but there are many things you need to work on.
Maybe you're slumping. Maybe you're just having a bad day. OR, maybe you suck at your division.
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On February 17 2011 22:33 [TA]eccentric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 22:19 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 17 2011 22:02 [TA]eccentric wrote:
A couple of things that i'm going to point out.
17 min mark - whyd you suicide those mutas against those thor/viking/missileturrets? terrible terrible decision making.
why did you make so many drones? You had 114 drones at one point in the game, that's about 40 larvae that you could have used on units. It's only efficient to have ~70-80 drones at a time. There's a thread about it somewhere in TL. Building a trustfund of 10k wont do you any good, if you had used all of that money at the 20-25 minute mark, you'd have won and not made this topic.
Why did it take you so long to tech up? Hydralisks would have had a kickass time against those thors/vikings. So would brood lords/corruptors.
What was the point of dropping ultras when he has like 20-30 vikings right there? O_O he killed off most of those overlords (37 minute mark) and you also lost the ultras. If you actually wanted to make use of overlord dropping why didn't you baneling bust his workers? I doubt PF can hit air units. There is a crapload of space where the overlords could have snuck in from at the 4-5oclock base (one with a crapload of turrets), and theres only one turret defending the space behind the one on the right of that base. o_o You've scouted all of that too.
The second you went from 200/200 to 124/94 and just continued to make a crapload of ultralisks was when you actually died.
I think you should revisit the basics, watch some day9>newbie-tuesday and stuff.
Oh yeah, just as a point of reference, I'm a bronze league player struggling to get out of it.
O_O i dont understand why people are so agressive about this whole thing. 1. i suicided those mutalisks. So? what exactly should have i done with them, they did what i needed tehm for, namely harass and deny the vikings, and get terribly ahead. At that point killing 2 thors and a couple if vikings was an OK thing to do even if terribly cost infefficient. 2. i overdroned, and i suicided lots of it very soon, you could notice i was down to below 80 well before the game was over. 4. it took long as i aws massing air to deal with him and get ahead in economy. I used hydralisks not tons of it but i always had around some. 5. i didnt drop them per se i elevated them to the highgroundto avoid some PFs, and he did nto have 30 vikings, what are you talking about, and if you think he had that many and drops were a bad idea why are you saying i should have dropped banes on his workers, which means a longer drop-path. I watched almost every Day9 episode starting from the first one, the nubey thusdays i find very detrimential actually as awesome as day9 is he gives a lot of bad advices too, and besides that im quit confident my zerg is stronger then his, even if his analytical game understanding is way above mine. I still watch them an try to learn from them, where i can. Some of day9's basic advices: get more ahead dont attack when you feel you re in a good position, tech or focus on eco abuse immobility with drops and nyduses Sounds familiar? Yeah, good advices, and i was trying to implement them. You are like the 5th person in here who suggests that i simply suck at this game, very depressing considering the average skill level of these posters. 1) At the time you suicided those mutas, you could have gone back into his main and picked off some depots, done some more micro to kill SCVs, etc. You shouldnt just kill your units because they've done their job. If you're 7rring, will you just suicide your roaches after killing a few workers and making sure he/she's made a crapload of static defence? If you're speedling expanding will you just let your speedlings die if you scout banshee/viking play and have to adjust your tech accordingly? durr no. 2) See theres two mistakes in that, and both of them could be solved by fixing the initial one - dont overdrone. Even i've already reached a point where I know whether to drone or build units. 3) you dont have a 3 >_> 4) Having hydras to deal with thors and having hydras to pick off random vikings that wander into your base to scout are completely different things. If you had made more creep tumours (which would have been very easy to do seeing as all 6 of your queens had near max energy at all times - if not max), the hydras would have been even more effective, bait a thor, kill it. Bait another one, kill it. etc. 4.5) you say that you dont like to all-in yet you're massing air units? why? to suicide them? oh wait... 5) 30 = exaggeration. Yeah, ok I get that. but you ran them through a path where he had his army posistioned. -_- Running them through an army and winding them through the back are completely different things. Oh yeah, another advice day9 gives is "if your opponent is dicking around, just go fucking kill him". I'm not suggesting that you suck at this game, but there are many things you need to work on. Maybe you're slumping. Maybe you're just having a bad day. OR, maybe you suck at your division.
ok, you make no sense. Ive told you why i made mutas. I had creep spread till the place he had PFs, it's hard to spread more then that. I had energy on queens, at times i was maxed on larvae / hatcehrys, so your point?
I clearly have a lot of things to work on, but even more clearly you have to work on analyzing what you see as it's straight up nonsense what you are writing in some of your paragraphs.
I dont want to say anything bad for you being in bronze, but maybe you should be less convinced on your opinions.
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Well I watched your rep.
First if you notice, when he added 2 starports and started pumping vikings he had pretty much no ground army at all. You could just come with speed roaches and/or speedling and killed him. That's of course is easier to say than to do, but next time you could consider this option.
What about late game I think you made everything right, maybe your attacks could have been more succesful if you attacked with speedlings and ultras at the same time, because just ultras running into mass thors aren't very effective, +thors overkill on lings.
Overall I think you should make more cracklings.
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day9 is he gives a lot of bad advices too, and besides that im quit confident my zerg is stronger then his
You are unbelieviablely aggrogant and bad.
You can't be Master, you are trolling us all, or maybe the ladder system has't ajusted your MMR yet, or maybe you just suck at ZvT for a crazy reason or are the luckiest gamer ever, but truth is you just suck at this game. Usually I'd never say that to a Master guy and think first about me being wrong, as I usually do, but you being bad is now plain evidence.
You played an awful game. Your macro sucks. Yes, it sucks : macro is not gathering money. It's all about using it at the right times.
You are all trapping us into believing that as soon as a T as 2 PF, no matter his army is weak and unupgraded at 20 min, there is nothing possible to do.
Any mediocre Zerg is able to build an army that defeats your T opp in 20 min. Ultra bane is an exemple, but full 200/200 3/3 mutas magix boxing would have done exactly the same, as well as constant waves of 200/200 3/3 cracklings, roaches... litterally anything in Zerg arsenal apart from Drone and Overlord. And everything is achievable in 20 minutes. You know it, I know it, and every Gold Zerg out there knows it.
If you reach 20 minutes in game and are not able to set up an army crushing for good 92 Terran food (wich more that half were SCVs, so basically we are speaking of 40 food of units, and 2 PFs, that means your macro is horrible, period. You are just incredibly bad. You deserve to loose. You can be desperate about that, because that would be the same for me if I was in such a situation after playing the game for two weeks.
I just rewatched the rep : apart from minor harassment and little muta gimmicks almost no real engagement happened at all, and our Master Terran players mmanage to build up, at 20 minutes in game :
- 91 pop
- 45 of which consists of SCVs
- 2 Hellions
- 3 Vikings
- 3 Thors
- 4 Tanks
Yes, ladies and gentlemen. That's all he got at 20 mintutes. And two PF's. A macro mad man, for sure !
Here is a new game : first prize to anyone able to macro up some a-moving dumb one-dimensonnal zerg force that can crush this during a 20 minutes unpressured game.
Oh yes, and with unlimited cash sustain, of course, and several hatcheries. Just in case you dont win with the first attack.
But I'm not sure any of you guys that are not in Masters were able to display such macro skills, so be warned.
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On February 17 2011 22:47 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +day9 is he gives a lot of bad advices too, and besides that im quit confident my zerg is stronger then his You are unbelieviablely aggrogant and bad. You can't be Master, you are trolling us all, or maybe the ladder system has't ajusted your MMR yet, or maybe you just suck at ZvT for a crazy reason or are the luckiest gamer ever, but truth is you just suck at this game. Usually I'd never say that to a Master guy and think first about me being wrong, as I usually do, but you being bad is now plain evidence. You played an awful game. Your macro sucks. Yes, it sucks : macro is not gathering money. It's all about using it at the right times. You are all trapping us into believing that as soon as a T as 2 PF, no matter his army is weak and unupgraded at 20 min, there is nothing possible to do. Any mediocre Zerg is able to build an army that defeats your T opp in 20 min. Ultra bane is an exemple, but full 200/200 3/3 mutas magix boxing would have done exactly the same, as well as constant waves of 200/200 3/3 cracklings, roaches... litterally anything in Zerg arsenal apart from Drone and Overlord. And everything is achievable in 20 minutes. You know it, I know it, and every Gold Zerg out there knows it. If you reach 20 minutes in game and are not able to set up an army crushing for good 92 Terran food (wich more that half were SCVs, so basically we are speaking of 40 food of units, and 2 PFs, that means your macro is horrible, period. You are just incredibly bad. You deserve to loose. You can be desperate about that, because that would be the same for me if I was in such a situation after playing the game for two weeks. I just rewatched the rep : apart from minor harassment and little muta gimmicks almost no real engagement happened at all, and our Master Terran players mmanage to build up, at 20 minutes in game : - 91 pop - 45 of which consists of SCVs - 2 Hellions - 3 Vikings - 3 Thors - 4 Tanks Yes, ladies and gentlemen. That's all he got at 20 mintutes. And two PF's. A macro mad man, for sure ! Here is a new game : first prize to anyone able to macro up some a-moving dumb one-dimensonnal zerg force that can crush this during a 20 minutes unpressured game. Oh yes, and with unlimited cash sustain, of course, and several hatcheries. Just in case you dont win with the first attack. But I'm not sure any of you guys that are not in Masters were able to display such macro skills, so be warned.
didnt you say you're out of here? Like twice?
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Well I don't know if I can give you advice since you're higher ranked than me, but I think you should get maxed as soon as possible and just kill him before he's able to turtle up completely.
Just ask your teammate to play that style and try to get a super early third, saturate it and go for something like ultralisk baneling roach and don't let him get his third, make sure you have some anti air to deal with drops and stuff.
I mean if a terran is passive you should have enough units to stop him from taking a third.
Try to starve him.
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On February 17 2011 22:47 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +day9 is he gives a lot of bad advices too, and besides that im quit confident my zerg is stronger then his You are unbelieviablely aggrogant and bad. You can't be Master, you are trolling us all
Normally I wouldn't say this, but ... you are an idiot. It's clear from the replay that he is in fact a very good player. Anyone who have watched a few good replays and understand the game should see that quite easily.
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The most logical answer is to not invest too much in all that tech like brood lords, etc. Obviously, Brood Lords move RIDONCULOUSLY slow. That way, he doesn't really need as fast a reaction time in order to deal with the broodlords. Indeed, in this situation I've commonly been abusing Nydus worms and drops simply because you can be in two places at once. With Nydus, you can easily commit your ENTIRE army and still be able to pull out when the need arises. To be honest, I believe that mobility would be the answer to the problem you seem to be having. I personally hate greater spire tech because of how undeniably slow Brood Lords are. I'm a much bigger fan of Ultralisks because at least you can drop those. Basically, whenever I encounter lategame situations as Zerg, I try to be all over the place at the same time to at least keep him honest. The best part, if you ask me, about the Nydus worm is if your Terran opponent figures he can just all-in you, you can sense that and go back into the Nydus worm and reemerge at your base in the speed of light.
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Ok lets sum it up the main point that you dont seem to be getting.
Yes having loads of PF and Thors and tanks late game where your running low on reasorces and he still has 2 bases means that you are eventually gonna lose.
you didnt capitalise on your advantage and you let him back into the game, if you didnt do this you would've won simple as.
Its not imbalanced cause you had plenty of time to win, but you didnt you let him get everything he wanted you didnt punish him for not having enough units and by the time you tried he had enough to defend.
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edit: dont feel like BMing anyone today
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@Geo.Rion
I just want to point out that if as zerg you took 4 bases and made 80 drones before making any units and then started massing units and attacked when maxed and your opponent (any race) played standard making army and eco but never attacked you. There is absolutely no way they could hold off your maxed army as you only made 80 drones for 12minutes.
Would you say that this makes late game Zerg imba or would you say theyd be stupid for not killing you when you make 80 drones before any units.........
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I'm around 2900 masters terran and yes there is a way to break the passive terran.
So at this point in the game when the terran was going for the 5th and 6th base you were maxed with 100 supply of drones and 31 banelings. he was also 3/2 on upgrades so his mech army is very very cost effective vs your roach/bane army. I think that you dont need to deny his bases more than trade your army to kill his mech. You can remax much faster than him remaking mech back to the death ball. So my solution would be to kill his mech and do the 300 food push with roaches because the reinforcements will be too much for him to handle because mech takes so long to build. But you need to do this before pfs go up in allies or not let him put them up.
Actually Id just watch my own replay and see what I could have done better at each point in the game...and see where I lost
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Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story.
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On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story.
again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance?
I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not
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My one advice would be that you should have kept kept drilling his 3o'clock, you killed it several times, dropped it, but you in the end you let him keep the base and tried to go for the main. Maybe you should have kept dropping all your army at that same location, spread creep and make tons of spines so it could have been a 7 bases vs 5.
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On February 17 2011 23:29 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story. again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance? I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not
the point is you shouldn't be in those situations. I think you know how to deal with this situation when you get into one but this wont guarantee you a win. killing him before he gets to that point will.
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rename this topic to "Zerg which never attacks."
20 mins into the game, your sitting on 200/200 and have 6k minerals 2k gas, and dont attack. what are you afraid of ?
nevermind, 25 mins, 12k minerals, still not attacking.
lol
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Guys! SOO many of you comment whithout watching it or watching half of it. Here are some key things which please dont mention.
A. Economy- if a T is passive you should expand!! <-That's precisely what i did.
You overdroned! <- thank you captain obvious, you could have also noticed i havent stayed on insane dronenumbers for more then a couple of minutes, as i sent tons of them to die to free up supply
B. Armytrading! I dont know if you noticed his 2-2 PFs on the 2 alleys as well as PFs at every expo and PF in the main + the line of siegetanks and ridicuolus ammounts of turrets.
C. Broodlords!! I've said this, i didnt consider it an option given he already had the hardcounter out and 2 port with reactors to mass even more if necessary.
D. Banelings! I used banelings. Some of you say it's not good vs mech, well it s hellout of better then lings at least vs PFs and i wanted the costliest army possible. Some of you say i should have had more. He had a lots of tanks which can clear out huge clumps very quickly, i think having 60 was a fair number
E. Why didnt i go roach-hydra vs his opening. Mass viking is tricky, and this player is very tricky. If i go roach hydra he would have had his third up so super fast with a PF it's crazy and he would have transitioned in bio i think, it's something he does, but even if he stays mech it's reasonable
You should check out Idra vs TLO from sometime in the beta. TLO cut Lost Temple (I think it was Lost Temple) in half with tanks and pforts. But Idra managed to get 1 extra base mining so it was about 5 vs 4 I think.
Idra went for a few brood lords and mass corruptors and just started to pick away at TLO despite TLO having a ton of Vikings. At the end of the day, TLO surrendered because could he not keep trading vikings for mass corruptors while keeping enough ground to not get rolled over by roaches. He could just not prevent the broodlords from picking away at his defenses.
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Dear Geo.Rion,
I have read the whole thread and watched your replay, and i have the feeling you are trolling us.
Perfectly viable advice has been given, and you simple deny that it is viable advice. The problem is that you never put real pressure on the terran.
You had a massive lead around the 18 min mark and lost that lead later on because terran was greedy and did not get punished, because of his then superior econ and more cost efficient unit comp, he won. Period.
Basically, punish T early if he is greedy, this has been said multiple times before, yet you deny that this is actually helpful information.
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um nydus earlier and those drops were kind of useless. just mass nydus to get him scared while hes killing them kill the pfs with mass baneling ultra and then kill his factorys not aiming towards his units. then while hes building more production facilities repeat this. keep doing this until he has to death push and win. with that many bases just throw away your units and then rebuild. nice idea of killing the armories with your mutas.
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Sry if my points have already been mentioned but I hesitate to read through 7 sites of text walls with obviously lots of agressive postings. I am a P player, so see my approach as an creative brainstorming rather than experience based.
I think you could have broke his Turtle at the later Stages of the game by using any of the following points:
- Minerals and Gas are limited, Spellcaster energy is not, Infestors Volleyball provides an endless stream of units which can be used to pierce him down
- covering that much space with turrets and PF's creates 2 imbalances you can abuse:
1. If you can sidestep his main defence line you render his whole defense investment useless
2. his units need to be grouped up to rather great chunks to be effective, while you can rely on super cheap, super fast cracklings which are devestating even in small numbers if uncontested
The first one could have been achieved with a dozen SpeedOverlords breaking through his turret line. They dont cost Supply so your army is not afflicted by creating that opening and they are pretty sturdy for the minerals they cost. The 2nd one is achieved by simply spreading the remaining Overlords all over his backalley and then creating multiple (speak 3-4) Nydus at once. Stream Cracklings//Infestors(burrowed) through them and spread them everywhere. Create new Nyduses elsewhere if he moves his units to kill them. The space is just to huge to cover everything at once, especially once you can place them everywhere your lings are. Leave is Frontdefence completly alone, there is absolutly no point in attacking that at all, focus on production facitilies then his army. He can mine as much minerals as he wants if he is not able to convert it into new Units
Whatever you do, dont engage him at his greatest strength the multi-pf's with tanksupport and Thorball in the middle of the map.
- you had a huge mineral advantage all game long; even trading all your ressources to his in a 5Min/2Gas vs 1Min/1Gas Ratio would have benefit you; avoid scenarios where you send in 150 Food worth of Ultras, wait one minute and then send another wave, keep streaming him once you comit to a breakthrough and never stop until you have won or are broke
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On February 17 2011 23:29 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story. again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance? I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not
........Once again, you'll never get into a situation like this unless you screw up. So wanting a cost efficient 100% effective way to deal with it is just being ignorant.
I'll repeat, this is not sim city. The object of the game is to kill your opponent. If you pass up multiple ridiculously easy ways to kill your opponent, then whatever happens afterwards is irrelevant. This kind of conversation is the equivalent of wanting a cost efficient way to kill 3/3 200/200 thors. The answer is, there isn't, the problem is letting him get there in the first place.
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On February 17 2011 23:50 plainsane wrote:
Dear Geo.Rion,
I have read the whole thread and watched your replay, and i have the feeling you are trolling us.
Perfectly viable advice has been given, and you simple deny that it is viable advice. The problem is that you never put real pressure on the terran.
You had a massive lead around the 18 min mark and lost that lead later on because terran was greedy and did not get punished, because of his then superior econ and more cost efficient unit comp, he won. Period.
Basically, punish T early if he is greedy, this has been said multiple times before, yet you deny that this is actually helpful information.
i always said that it is probably right that i should have killed him
I repeadetly said, that regardless of that i'm seeking help, say, if i was unable to kill him early on if i get into this position, what can i do in your opinion.
And people totally neglect that and focus on teh 18th or whatever minute. It is not true i did not put any pressure at terran, i stopped for a while, maybe i shouldn't have.
I'm not neglecting, and i never said there werent anything valid in the comments, there are lots of good things, but the specific problem i was asking about keeps being unadressed by most of the posts
and about trolling you guys, i keep being told i'm not even in masters probably and i suck by bronze level players, are you sure I'm the one who is trolling?
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On February 18 2011 00:21 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:29 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story. again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance? I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not ........Once again, you'll never get into a situation like this unless you screw up. So wanting a cost efficient 100% effective way to deal with it is just being ignorant. I'll repeat, this is not sim city. The object of the game is to kill your opponent. If you pass up multiple ridiculously easy ways to kill your opponent, then whatever happens afterwards is irrelevant. This kind of conversation is the equivalent of wanting a cost efficient way to kill 3/3 200/200 thors. The answer is, there isn't, the problem is letting him get there in the first place.
okey man, taht is totally cool, your answer is Not let it happen, if it happens, you die. It's ok, taht's a valid opinion, i'm wondering if there are others who think that situation still can occur on normal basis, and they know a way to deal with it, there were a couple who made suggestions, which im thankful for, once again
@ Antisocialmunky
I've seen the game, Broodlords back then had +50 health, +1 armor, and +5 demage, as well as ultras had slightly bigger cleave, with those units i believ ei would have been able to break him this game too
On February 17 2011 23:38 Toxi78 wrote:
rename this topic to "Zerg which never attacks."
20 mins into the game, your sitting on 200/200 and have 6k minerals 2k gas, and dont attack. what are you afraid of ?
nevermind, 25 mins, 12k minerals, still not attacking.
lol
that's right i was afraid of attacking, because i lost many games like that, attacking into a passive terran.
I genuinly think in every eco based RTS if one player commits 100% into defence the other player
s respound should not be commit 100% into attack. I committed to eco and tech, which might not have been the correct choise but again, it happened, and i ended up in a situation, which some of you consider canot happen in a normal game, i consider it can, and i d love to hear different ways of approaching that, as mine was clearly not the best one
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On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote:
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
You seriously cant see where you went wrong?
1. He should never have been able to get that 3rd up and running. That should be stopped easily by some lings and the mutas.
2. I would maybe open with infestors instead of mutas. Or at least GET the infestors to really own the vikings.
3. If you had gone Hive and got ultras, you could easily won by the 15 min mark. He had no ground army dude. Just use 400 gas to get the hive.
4. Expand more and drone harder/faster.
Just dont let him get that 3rd so easy. Just get some units out and stop it. Vikings suck vs ground. Also when they go so heavy on the air, why not focus on the ground and own him with owerwhelming forces. If you have a infestor or 2 you can just fungle them and the ovis will be protected by 1 infestor and some hydras.
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On February 18 2011 00:36 Neivler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote:
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
You seriously cant see where you went wrong? 1. He should never have been able to get that 3rd up and running. That should be stopped easily by some lings and the mutas. 2. I would maybe open with infestors instead of mutas. Or at least GET the infestors to really own the vikings. 3. If you had gone Hive and got ultras, you could easily won by the 15 min mark. He had no ground army dude. Just use 400 gas to get the hive. 4. Expand more and drone harder/faster. Just dont let him get that 3rd so easy. Just get some units out and stop it. Vikings suck vs ground. Also when they go so heavy on the air, why not focus on the ground and own him with owerwhelming forces. If you have a infestor or 2 you can just fungle them and the ovis will be protected by 1 infestor and some hydras.
ok, +1 for IT never should happen, thank you for your input
although im not sure what you meant by expand more and drone harder
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Whenever your opponent turtles, you get map control.
With that, you can take the entire map and just get to 200/200 while making sure your opponent never gets to take a third.
As Zerg, build tons of hatches once you max out and stockpile larva.
Once he finally pushes out, trade armies, and instantly remake your whole army from all your larva and you'll kill him.
Never walk your army into his super-duper-tank-battlecruiser-PF-fortress line.
It's what he wants. Make him come to you and kill him the second he does.
If he really never ever moves out at all, just take the entire map and spam 200 food armies at him till he dies, since he won't have any income to replenish his units.
You'll have the entire map so he can't kill you before you kill him.
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On February 18 2011 00:36 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:36 Neivler wrote:On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote:
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
You seriously cant see where you went wrong? 1. He should never have been able to get that 3rd up and running. That should be stopped easily by some lings and the mutas. 2. I would maybe open with infestors instead of mutas. Or at least GET the infestors to really own the vikings. 3. If you had gone Hive and got ultras, you could easily won by the 15 min mark. He had no ground army dude. Just use 400 gas to get the hive. 4. Expand more and drone harder/faster. Just dont let him get that 3rd so easy. Just get some units out and stop it. Vikings suck vs ground. Also when they go so heavy on the air, why not focus on the ground and own him with owerwhelming forces. If you have a infestor or 2 you can just fungle them and the ovis will be protected by 1 infestor and some hydras. ok, +1 for IT never should happen, thank you for your input although im not sure what you meant by expand more and drone harder
When you see him tying to take a 3rd that quick of 2 port vikings you know he cant have an army. So a few extra lings to stop it should be there. When he first got it you could go to 80 drones very quickly and almost stop unit production, then get +2 bases up to 5. So you could get a lot of gas. That 5th base was way to late. With that extra gas you could have gone hive a lot earlier and won with ultras.
Expanding off 6 vikings is not something a 3400 master zerg should allow.
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What i understand from all those comments is:
Once a Terran have 2-3 expos, no matter how much more bases or minerals you have (10K/5K in this case), you can't win anymore (or "it's hard"), you should have kill him earlier.
Is that right?
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@ parn : Absolutely not. If you let a Terran build 3-4 Command centers and only SCV with almost no army at all during 20 minutes, letting him unpunished (== not kill him, but at least force him to waste ressources to defend, therefore making his expanding slower) and missing 10-12 opportunities to gain control of the game, then yes, you can't win anymore.
Basically what it means is you cannot let your opp make 10 big mistakes absolutely unpunished while making a lot yourself, and then hope to win just because you stacked more money than him. Not playing fair, e.g not making defenses, is exactly like a cheese : as a Zerg when you dont scout a cheese, you loose. Same happens with economic cheese, at the difference you dont loose outright but later. Droning hard is good but it doesnt win you games by itself.
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There's alot of emphasis in the foreign scene to outmacro your opponent, and while this is good, if the opportunity arises where you can kill him/pressure him effectively, you should be doing it. This isn't GhandiCraft. There's no reason to be so passive!
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On February 18 2011 02:58 DjayEl wrote:
@ parn : Absolutely not. If you let a Terran build 3-4 Command centers and only SCV with almost no army at all during 20 minutes, letting him unpunished (== not kill him, but at least force him to waste ressources to defend, therefore making his expanding slower) and missing 10-12 opportunities to gain control of the game, then yes, you can't win anymore.
Is it 10 or 12 opportunities?
Total dishonest post.
You all know that if the Terran had lose the game, came here to ask why, you would all answer: "you were to passive, don't let the Zerg expand, etc ...".
Both players went for a macro game, the Zerg did better, the Zerg lost, it's as simple as that. This is not why he loses the game.
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On February 18 2011 03:15 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:58 DjayEl wrote:
@ parn : Absolutely not. If you let a Terran build 3-4 Command centers and only SCV with almost no army at all during 20 minutes, letting him unpunished (== not kill him, but at least force him to waste ressources to defend, therefore making his expanding slower) and missing 10-12 opportunities to gain control of the game, then yes, you can't win anymore.
Is it 10 or 12 opportunities? Total dishonest post. You all know that if the Terran had lose the game, came here to ask why, you would all answer: "you were to passive, don't let the Zerg expand, etc ...". Both players went for a macro game, the Zerg did better, the Zerg lost, it's as simple as that. This is not why he loses the game.
He asked for a way to beat a terran who doesn't attack. The specific one in the replay he linked is a macro terran, who seems to have holes in his early game. Tell me, which is the easier option;
A: Figuring out a unit combination/positioning to defeat him on 6 bases when he has 5
B: Killing the shit out of him in the early game
My vote is on B, personally!
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On February 18 2011 03:15 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:58 DjayEl wrote:
@ parn : Absolutely not. If you let a Terran build 3-4 Command centers and only SCV with almost no army at all during 20 minutes, letting him unpunished (== not kill him, but at least force him to waste ressources to defend, therefore making his expanding slower) and missing 10-12 opportunities to gain control of the game, then yes, you can't win anymore.
Is it 10 or 12 opportunities? Total dishonest post. You all know that if the Terran had lose the game, came here to ask why, you would all answer: "you were to passive, don't let the Zerg expand, etc ...". Both players went for a macro game, the Zerg did better, the Zerg lost, it's as simple as that. This is not why he loses the game.
That statement is complete false.
Also the one you quote is correct. He lost the game because of no pressure. He let the terran expand freely, and did next to nothing to stop it.
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@ parn : dont treat me as dishonnest. We both know what you are trying to do there. I already listed these opportunities in my first post, and later. Count them if you want.
And please stop with this macro thing : Zerg had better economy, not better macro. Macro is economy + spending all of your ressources in time at key moments, the last is the harder part.
If you just want to argue, then let me say you are right and discussion is over. Otherwise, try to understand my explanations. You keep saying Im wrong but cant say yourself exactly why the Terran won. What others can do.
And peace, I did not meant to hurt you man...
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On February 18 2011 00:28 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:21 Sm3agol wrote:On February 17 2011 23:29 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story. again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance? I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not ........Once again, you'll never get into a situation like this unless you screw up. So wanting a cost efficient 100% effective way to deal with it is just being ignorant. I'll repeat, this is not sim city. The object of the game is to kill your opponent. If you pass up multiple ridiculously easy ways to kill your opponent, then whatever happens afterwards is irrelevant. This kind of conversation is the equivalent of wanting a cost efficient way to kill 3/3 200/200 thors. The answer is, there isn't, the problem is letting him get there in the first place. okey man, taht is totally cool, your answer is Not let it happen, if it happens, you die. It's ok, taht's a valid opinion, i'm wondering if there are others who think that situation still can occur on normal basis, and they know a way to deal with it, there were a couple who made suggestions, which im thankful for, once again @ Antisocialmunky I've seen the game, Broodlords back then had +50 health, +1 armor, and +5 demage, as well as ultras had slightly bigger cleave, with those units i believ ei would have been able to break him this game too Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:38 Toxi78 wrote:
rename this topic to "Zerg which never attacks."
20 mins into the game, your sitting on 200/200 and have 6k minerals 2k gas, and dont attack. what are you afraid of ?
nevermind, 25 mins, 12k minerals, still not attacking.
lol that's right i was afraid of attacking, because i lost many games like that, attacking into a passive terran. I genuinly think in every eco based RTS if one player commits 100% into defence the other player s respound should not be commit 100% into attack. I committed to eco and tech, which might not have been the correct choise but again, it happened, and i ended up in a situation, which some of you consider canot happen in a normal game, i consider it can, and i d love to hear different ways of approaching that, as mine was clearly not the best one
I'll give my two cents. I apologize in advance if someone has already mentioned what I am about to say.
First off, many of your attacks were half-hearted, and only consisted of about half of your army. I believe that these attacks would have been much more successful had you committed your entire army, instead of leaving behind many of your units to idle. Your economy earlier on was much more powerful, so you would have been able to rebuild much faster than him.
Many of your attacks were also disorganized. You allowed your armies to be split, to attack a variety of targets which weren't priorities (such as turrets) and be baited into killing grounds filled with PFs and sieged tanks when there were plenty of unprotected targets nearby.
I feel that you used drop too much. It has its uses, but you lost a good number of pricey units just by getting your overlords sniped by the large number of vikings. Sticking with nydus worms would have been a better idea, if you absolutely felt the need to be sneaky.
Your upgrades were considerably behind the Terran's in the mid to mid-late game. This was devastating, and should not happen.
I wont repeat what people have said about the early to early-mid game, since you've already heard what you had to hear countless times.
TL; DR:
a) Once you're maxed and are floating a considerable amount of money, commit yourself to one alleyway of attack and commit all of your forces there. Don't attack with only half of your forces. He won't be able to resist against the multiple armies you'll have due to your booming economy.
b) Don't go drop tech when nydus is working, if not better.
c) Upgrades.
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I'm not a zerg player but here are my suggestions based no first hand experience.
Try using your banelings earlier, they sat around for half an hour.
Prioritize units with your banelings. (as opposed to buildings)
Set baneling mines outside the base you choose to attack and bait units into them when your roach force seemingly retreats.
Next time you wanna sac drones with that kind of economy try making mass spine crawlers out of them, then pushing a lane with the crawlers to fall back behind. (I know you're thinking siege/thor army beat crawlers, but with unit support they'll do decent)
Alternatively you could try mass spore crawlers and use broodlords over them, the broodlings will tie up the ground units, and you can fall back if the vikings swing in.
try mass Corruptor, some Broodlords, and a few Infestors to fungal his viking if they try to pull back?
But these wont single handedly win you the game, which is the type response you're looking for. You're just going to have to keep playing him over and over until you find something that works for you.
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Sorry Geo.Rion, but how did you expect this to go?
You post a replay of a game you lost versus a macro Terran and ask advice on how you could've won that game. As such, people are going to look at your replay and pick apart your play bit by bit till they come to a conclusion.
It wasn't even one of those "WTF just happened?" games, the reasons you lost were quite obvious and numerous. If you're not going to accept people's analysis of your game, why would you even waste our time with it? People take the time to watch a rather bad 30 minute game and comment on it step by step, and you respond to them by implying they haven't watched the replay/ that they're silly/ that they're wrong and seeing things black and white?
Wake up man, you're too caught up in the notion of an attack being inherently all-in and immoral. Do you actually think any top Zerg would let his Terran opponent get three bases and dual reactor starports of off 2 marines and 2 hellions before the 8 minute mark? Do you think any pro Zerg will look at your replay and say "I particularly liked your gameplan revolving around floating 12k minerals and 5k gas whilst not confronting the Terran with your maxed army for 10 minutes so he could take his half of the map with his 90 food army and construct it into a 200 food 3/3 death-ball and roll you ... I think you really got into his head".
Really, everyone in the thread is coming to the same conclusions and it's not because we're all being unreasonable or unknowledgeable. Maybe you should actually consider that your playstyle is less than optimal and work on that. If you're still doubting I'm very willing to PM Dark_Force on whether he wants to comment on your replay.
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I dont even have to watch the replay to tell you that you force a lot of vikings with broods...then you go ultras.
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I saw the replay and ... stopped at 22:18 and HAD ENOUGH. Worst spent 15 minutes of my life.
0. U ARE A FUCKHEAD - STOP WHINING AND ANALIZE YOUR PLAY !
1.  First of all - at a "given" time - i see u with 200/200 supply ( 4500 - 1500 resources) vs 100/200 supply ( he was taking his 4th). U HAD 109 DRONES vs 50 scvs !!!
2. BOTH OF U WERE PASSIVE ! Except - 2-3 battles ( 8 vikings vs 14 mutas, biggest of all around 25 mutas vs 15 vikings and a zergling "harras" in his main - u sent 14-18 lings vs 1 thor).
3. U had sooo many resources and no army at all except mutas and u persevered in loosing 2 controls of mutas vs his thor / missle turets mix WITH NO BACKUP ARMY !!! All he had was 3 TANKS ALL THE TIME and 2 hellion and 1-2 thors later.
4. U LET HIM MACRO UP soooo easy ... u saw double STARPORT with reactor - and he was pumping ONLY VIKINGS at 7-8 minutes mark into the game. HE HAD NO ... i mean no - i mean 0 defence. EXCUSE ME !!! 1 RHINE FOR DEFENCEEEE ! How the heck is that possible ?
5. With the risk of repeating myself - U NEVER ATTACKED HIM - all u've done is HARRAS with mutas vs turrets ... how do u expect he will not expand . FOR EXAMPLE : at 9:15 u are taking your 3rd ; after you scout u see all he makes are 4 vikings at a time ; his army IS composed of : 2 rhines , 1 hellion .... NO BUNKER, NO ANYTHING !!!
PS : how can u all other zerg player be as FUCKHEADS and all whine - withouth seeing the reply - or even by seeing it - can t see that OBVIOUS ... shitty play ?!
PS 2 : sorry for flamming , but how the heck can i not ?! In the 1st page - all are talking - yep, imba ... and i wonder myself - WOW - not i can really beat zerg - let's see and learn ... and all zerg does is let terran expand and play muta harras.
PLZ ATTACH A REPLAY WITH U AND YOUR FRIEND of BIG GAME HUNTERS !!! I think it will be no difference!
PS3 : ALL I VE LEARNT is ... u can HOLD zerg at 9 minute mark - with 1 rhine , 2 hellion , no bunker ! I will try this , just so i can loose.
PS 4 : now i see ... 114 drones vs 49 scv-s ... CONTACT BLIZZARD ! THIS GAME IS REALY IMBAAAA !!! O_o Call for your money back !!!
GL HF !
User was temp banned for this post.
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0. U ARE A FUCKHEAD - STOP WHINING AND ANALIZE YOUR PLAY !
wow, could we please keep stuff like this in the battle.net forums?
edit: on topic, I just did something similar to this on a TvZ on LT. PFs get kind of ridiculous in the late game. You can completely defend one half of the map exclusively with PFs, turrets (both remarkably cost-effective at 550/150 and 100/0), and Vikings and whatever else you decide to throw in there. If you let the Terran get his turtle secured then it's very hard to stop since terran units are ridiculously cost-effective. Ravens with their upgrades become stupid in the late game.
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If he's committing super hard to turtling, why are you bothering to break him at all? Deny extra bases and snipe tanks/etc.Be in an adventageous spot when he does move out to deal allot of damage to his army. It's pointless to run into a giant defense of seige/turret, just don't let him get any bigger.
I'd recommended watching old BW games of really good ZvT mech and figure out what the zerg did to win the game. Obviously, some things aren't completely the same, but luckily, Dark Swarm wasn't the linchpin of ZvT mech. Certain things are analogous, like thors and Goliaths, or broods and guardians, etc.
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IMO, you should have been able to win with around 200 banelings and 8 ultras. That is around 150 food so you might have to sac some surplus drones(you had 12 supply in queens, I find that too much). Then remax on roach and head for his main. What I could see you had the economy and larvae for this.
When you tried out Ultra-Bane combo in the game, you had around 50 banes only, but if you would have added 150 banelings more, I am pretty sure the outcome would have been different. You remaxed on ultra after that battle, but if you instead remaxed with 70 roaches would have been better.
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If we cut the slack of most of the posts, most seem to agree that a Zerg can't hope to win against a Terran who maxed out, got upgrades and secured (PF, sieged tanks, vikings nearby) his expansions. This comes from the usually accepted fact that Zerg units aren't cost efficient. They aren't made to attack into fortified positions unless they are absurdly higher in supply counts (or tech). This however leads to the conclusion that, if both players can secure their half of the map relatively freely, it's the Zerg who gets in a more and more disadvantageous position. (This is by no means different in BW. A winning Zerg was ahead in bases by 2-3.).
Long story short: If a Zerg player and his non-Zerg opponent can both take their 50% of the map freely, Zerg is behind. He can try to circumvent the defense if possible (mutas, drops, nydus, zergling runbies), but if Terran prevents that, Zerg has a hard time. This is how the game is designed.
So imo you have two possibilities: a) deny his expansions and starve him or b) "go fucking KILL him" (as Day9 would state it). That's the counter to greed.
To point b): You saw that yourself (I read the thread). But what I also took from your posts is that you want the fact to be true that a Zerg who outmacroes his opponent must win. I think this is a misconception of the saying that "Zerg is a reactionary race" which I consider being true.
But it does not mean that surviving till the end of time will get you the win. SC2 is not space invaders. It just means you have to react what your opponent does. And I know, we as Zergs are used to aggressive opponents because other races excel at aggression more than we do, but that does not mean there aren't times when it's the right thing to do to actually win.
I hope I didn't forget anything. Have a nice day (despite the heat in this threat).
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If he has 4-5 bases, he can't be defending all at the same time. If you got tons of resources, Nydus away or do drops, you can afford it, and just wreak havoc somewhere where he is not. He CANNOT defend 4-5 bases well with mech. Just chip away a little at a time.
Suicide 20ish blings into one of his PF's which he is not defending.
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when you maxed out at ~20 minutes I think you needed to start using your advantage somehow. but you only start trying to attack/nydus/drop/whatever much later... when you do nydus around 10 minutes later it's always half-hearted... where's the rest of your army? you could have killed the whole base! after this there's just this long succession of small attacks where you deal a little damage with a lot of army lost, and slowly you accumulate disadvantage, and by the time 40m rolls around you're out of money on your half of the map while T is still mining. these inefficient army engagements from 20-40 minutes lost you the game i believe.
how exactly you should engage as to not be totally inefficient is up to you. once you maxed out at 20 minutes you could have had broodlords attacking his gold with infestor/fungal+hydra support, for instance.
+ Show Spoiler +also lmao at some of these comments. the rage in this thread, oh man...
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EPT
