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OK, i rarely ever seek help here, but i'm desperate.
Right now im about 3470 points in masters, playing Zerg.
here's the game.
He opens up mass vikings on Metalo, i know, it's strange, believe me, this guy can make it happen, i lost to it before, as well as played against mass viking build of Strelok, so please dont start that it's a nub BO.
I wouldnt bother much with the early midgame, as i clearly had an advantage, i took all my 6 bases, while he was struggling to get his 4th. Eventually he got it, and here's my trouble.
I simply couldnt kill him. He had planetarys and turrets everywhere and transitioned into mech.
here's what i've been trying:
1.) Going around his army atacking his main below his third-highground / counteratacking whenever i felt like i could do demage, or run into his main
2. ) Nydusing his main then immediatly the other main which he was trying to secure, i've done this multiple times with moderate success.
3. ) As i've seen i canot take any additional base then my half of the map, i sacrificed about ~40 drone troughout the game to free up supply.
4. ) drop his new expos wiht units to prevent him from taking it.
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
Him being my teammate i asked him what to do, but i found it ridicuolus. He suggested broodlords, when he had always at least a fleet of vikings of ~6 to 10 and 2 starports with reactor, and infestors, which immedatly melt to the millions of planetarys and siegetanks before they could do anything.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140449-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
i hope the link works.
The last 5 minutes are hungarian mumble jumble, so you can exit the rep then
Please, if you have meaningful advice, i'm eager to hear it.
Guys! SOO many of you comment whithout watching it or watching half of it. Here are some key things which please dont mention.
A. Economy- if a T is passive you should expand!! <-That's precisely what i did.
You overdroned! <- thank you captain obvious, you could have also noticed i havent stayed on insane dronenumbers for more then a couple of minutes, as i sent tons of them to die to free up supply
B. Armytrading! I dont know if you noticed his 2-2 PFs on the 2 alleys as well as PFs at every expo and PF in the main + the line of siegetanks and ridicuolus ammounts of turrets.
C. Broodlords!! I've said this, i didnt consider it an option given he already had the hardcounter out and 2 port with reactors to mass even more if necessary.
D. Banelings! I used banelings. Some of you say it's not good vs mech, well it s hellout of better then lings at least vs PFs and i wanted the costliest army possible. Some of you say i should have had more. He had a lots of tanks which can clear out huge clumps very quickly, i think having 60 was a fair number
E. Why didnt i go roach-hydra vs his opening. Mass viking is tricky, and this player is very tricky. If i go roach hydra he would have had his third up so super fast with a PF it's crazy and he would have transitioned in bio i think, it's something he does, but even if he stays mech it's reasonable
EDIT2:
Thanks for pointing out i could have won somewhere in the midgame, i dont care. My question was, is there a way to brake terran from 6 base while he's trurtling on 4 and aiming to take his 5th and 6th. I refuse to believe the only way is to kill him off before that. If one race autowins in lategame, the game is terribly broken, and i dont want to believe that.
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Well, from a theorycrafting standpoint Infestor/BroodLord is a great way to break a Terran turtle that has Vikings. You could also expand towards your opponent. Letting an enemy secure half of the map to expand on sets them up for an entire game, and the focus shifts to being more about resources lost. Terran units are more cost efficient than Zerg's, so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
For instance, if you spawn at 9 o clock and expand to your natural, 12 o clock, the gold, and then 6 o clock you are forcing your opponent to respond. Otherwise he has 4 bases he can reach in total and you can prevent the gold from going up as it's on the main attack path. But this is easier said than done, just an idea (expanding map control with creep spread and hatcheries to more than just the half of your map you feel you deserve).
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EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance.
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On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing.
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On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing.
Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. It might be that my mechanics are just pretty good. Like I NEVER queu a worker with terran but I will constantly make workers. I don't even see pro's doing that. Same with injecting, I just have this mental clock. But anyway I found it a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow. I think zerg is harder, but don't exaggerate it 
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First off, great game, was fun to watch 
He really turtled and you did a really good job of being agressive.
As I'm watching:
-Zerglings runby, punish his fast expand.
-When you get maxed, build aditional Hatcheries and start pushing and pushing continously.
-I feel Nydus Worms were a little too late, but still, a good choice.
-Ok, when you reach +10k and you can't spend it, there's something really wrong: Just throw stuff at him and get maxed again quickly, he can't last forever.
You missed Brood Lords and Infestors.
I think you played really well, and you could've won, just suttle things make the difference.
GL!
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On February 17 2011 06:38 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. But a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow.
I know it sort of comes with the territory as the reactionary race. But here is all my ranting presented in a more coherent way: The other two races can "mess" with zerg with a variety of cheesy ways. They can basically wall off, and it is harder to scout, and usually revolves around sacrificing 100 minerals, and 8 supply capacity. They need to pay MORE attention to production cycles, because missing an injection is harder to come back from IMO than missing a chronocycle. Now this WOULD be fine except the other races have unit compositions that are hard to beat. To beat the deathball you just have to do alot more micro and such. Now with the "issues" I just mentioned, they ALSO have to pay more attention to micro and positioning, while still not forgetting about macro (injection and such). While protoss gets to A-move their deathball. Can anyone disagree with THAT?! (not imbalance, just the points I listed)
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On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing.
Do we need to share our love for zerg in every thread and complain about how every other race is easier? How does that help the discussion. Imagine if every thread someone talked about how easy playing zerg was and how pro you had to be playing toss.
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On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance.
I suggest you should switch to Terran, or Protoss. There is no "1a" for Zerg. If you dont like it, you should'nt play Zerg.. If you outexpand, outmacro and outmicro your opponent, there is no way you lose to 1a since your macro means you have more units and your micro means you are not stupid to run into siege tanks. And you should'nt really complain about late game issues as Zerg playing vs Terran. You have your Broodlord/Ultralisk deadly switches, which is kinda similar to 1a if you manage to take your 6 bases where your opponent struggles to take 4th..
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On February 17 2011 06:38 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Your opinion. I played all three races a good amount and I didn't find zerg harder. It might be that my mechanics are just pretty good. Like I NEVER queu a worker with terran but I will constantly make workers. I don't even see pro's doing that. Same with injecting, I just have this mental clock. But anyway I found it a bit more luck based. When I knew what my opponent was doing. I could basically crush it almost always. But the scouting is just extremely hard. Like you expect a hellion expand and he does a tank marine timing push.... Defending against things like getting atacked at 2 places at once is really hard for a terran player that has this mech style. Because you are so freaking slow. I think zerg is harder, but don't exaggerate it
I played all 3 races for a while and I think zerg is much more difficult. It's less straight forward (not "make constant probes/scvs and pump out of military buildings"), requires more APM and requires more knowledge of the games strategies because you are defending the whole time.
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On February 17 2011 06:43 dcberkeley wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:35 Mr. Enchilada wrote:On February 17 2011 06:26 CapnAmerica wrote:
so unless you outplay your opponent it's not a good situation to be in.
Exactly. Why does the Zerg have to be soooo much better and beyond a player in their OWN division? I could see needing insane tactics and strategery against a player in a higher division? But come on, not in the same. I don't care who the worst Zerg in the "pro circuit" is. He is automatically better than any terran or protoss in MY BOOK (my opinoin, no flaming) because to rise to that level and get past all the hardships, and basially anti-zerg cheese is amazing. Do we need to share our love for zerg in every thread and complain about how every other race is easier? How does that help the discussion. Imagine if every thread someone talked about how easy playing zerg was and how pro you had to be playing toss.
Then I would stick up for Protoss, and bash Zerg. Think about it: lets say in a perfect world we play each race 33-33-33 ( the population not each person.) Zerg is 1/3rd of the total population (a minority) so 2/3rds of all viewers would be thinking its just a small minority complaining. The issue isn't a few Zergs complaining. It is a neutral observation.
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As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite.
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On February 17 2011 06:45 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:32 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
EXACTLY. I have this same problem with the same build myself. People just say stuff like "macro better." Honestly the big issue with questions like this is: there is no right answer. Zergs say do X to beat Terran strategy X. But if a Terran asks how to beat said strategy then you do another thing Y. The point is, there is no "right answer" to each build, because likely that build is the right answer to one of yours. The way the game should end is by the better player, NOT because of the "do this to beat this (and then they do this to beat this) phenomenon we seem so caught up in. SO if you out macro, out expand, out micro and somehow lose to a "1-A" attack then there IS something unbalanced. People saying stuff like "oh do this to beat that" are SOO wrong, because then that person asks how to beat THAT strategy and the cycle repeats. EVERY ZvT I find myself in this situation, and after my half of the map is taken, I CANT break the turtling terran, all this "attack two places at once" type of strategy IS good, and it should win you the game because you are the better player for using strategy like that. BUT 1-A deathballs (toss) and the kind of terran "blah yucky" composition vs Zerg is just incredibly imbalanced that I'm actually starting to get physically worked up. ZERG HAS NO 1-A easy win strategy and that is the imbalance. I suggest you should switch to Terran, or Protoss. There is no "1a" for Zerg. If you dont like it, you should'nt play Zerg.. If you outexpand, outmacro and outmicro your opponent, there is no way you lose to 1a since your macro means you have more units and your micro means you are not stupid to run into siege tanks. And you should'nt really complain about late game issues as Zerg playing vs Terran. You have your Broodlord/Ultralisk deadly switches, which is kinda similar to 1a if you manage to take your 6 bases where your opponent struggles to take 4th..
THAT is the answer I am saying is (no offense) useless. You don't look at an issue and say "well there isn't a solution so you should cope" No. You find a solution. If you lose a leg, they "make a solution" with a prosthetic, NOT telling you to cope by learning how to balance on one. Stop telling zergs they need to come up with creative ways to solve problems. Instead fix the problem. I don't know how to fix ZvT but a great fix to the death ball is Corrupters being range 9 like viking (notice how colossi aren't imba in PvT?)
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Can you not just wait for him to push out, then overrun him since you can remax faster? Sooner or later he will have to attack.
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On February 17 2011 06:46 link0 wrote:
As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite.
I can't remember where i read this but I read tanks for some reason prioritize infestors the highest, so any infestor in range gets destroyed before it can cast fungal basically. Not sure if that is true but I think that is what I read.
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If your able to Nydus his main perhaps you should be dropping instead. The surest way to kill a terran is take out his production.
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On February 17 2011 06:50 badcop wrote:
Can you not just wait for him to push out, then overrun him since you can remax faster? Sooner or later he will have to attack.
Nope. Because on these maps the distance is too small. Take shakuras. Two expos are near the Xelnaga tower and theyre harder to defend so you generally take them last. So as youre remaxing, the shrort walk with 30 marines and 4 thors and 3 tanks gets there too fast. Not to mention how insanely fast you can produce marines with like 8 reactor Rax
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On February 17 2011 06:46 link0 wrote:
As a Terran player who's tried Mech against zerg many times, the hard counter to it is Neural Parasite.
How come? Could you elaborate a bit? I thought the hard counter is Broodlors -> Ultralisks..
I suppose siege tanks should provide enough firepower to deal with infestors fast enough..
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Couldn't you have smashed him with NP+mass roach or just mass roach when he tried taking the gold? You had a significant lead until you decided to fight with mass mutas above Thors + turrets.
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You have stocked resources from having these bases for so long, so losing an expansion immediately shouldn't be a problem, and while that expansion is dying you have maxed army to crush his attack and put on pressure.
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EPT
