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Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story.
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On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story.
again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance?
I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not
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My one advice would be that you should have kept kept drilling his 3o'clock, you killed it several times, dropped it, but you in the end you let him keep the base and tried to go for the main. Maybe you should have kept dropping all your army at that same location, spread creep and make tons of spines so it could have been a 7 bases vs 5.
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On February 17 2011 23:29 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story. again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance? I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not
the point is you shouldn't be in those situations. I think you know how to deal with this situation when you get into one but this wont guarantee you a win. killing him before he gets to that point will.
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rename this topic to "Zerg which never attacks."
20 mins into the game, your sitting on 200/200 and have 6k minerals 2k gas, and dont attack. what are you afraid of ?
nevermind, 25 mins, 12k minerals, still not attacking.
lol
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Guys! SOO many of you comment whithout watching it or watching half of it. Here are some key things which please dont mention.
A. Economy- if a T is passive you should expand!! <-That's precisely what i did.
You overdroned! <- thank you captain obvious, you could have also noticed i havent stayed on insane dronenumbers for more then a couple of minutes, as i sent tons of them to die to free up supply
B. Armytrading! I dont know if you noticed his 2-2 PFs on the 2 alleys as well as PFs at every expo and PF in the main + the line of siegetanks and ridicuolus ammounts of turrets.
C. Broodlords!! I've said this, i didnt consider it an option given he already had the hardcounter out and 2 port with reactors to mass even more if necessary.
D. Banelings! I used banelings. Some of you say it's not good vs mech, well it s hellout of better then lings at least vs PFs and i wanted the costliest army possible. Some of you say i should have had more. He had a lots of tanks which can clear out huge clumps very quickly, i think having 60 was a fair number
E. Why didnt i go roach-hydra vs his opening. Mass viking is tricky, and this player is very tricky. If i go roach hydra he would have had his third up so super fast with a PF it's crazy and he would have transitioned in bio i think, it's something he does, but even if he stays mech it's reasonable
You should check out Idra vs TLO from sometime in the beta. TLO cut Lost Temple (I think it was Lost Temple) in half with tanks and pforts. But Idra managed to get 1 extra base mining so it was about 5 vs 4 I think.
Idra went for a few brood lords and mass corruptors and just started to pick away at TLO despite TLO having a ton of Vikings. At the end of the day, TLO surrendered because could he not keep trading vikings for mass corruptors while keeping enough ground to not get rolled over by roaches. He could just not prevent the broodlords from picking away at his defenses.
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Dear Geo.Rion,
I have read the whole thread and watched your replay, and i have the feeling you are trolling us.
Perfectly viable advice has been given, and you simple deny that it is viable advice. The problem is that you never put real pressure on the terran.
You had a massive lead around the 18 min mark and lost that lead later on because terran was greedy and did not get punished, because of his then superior econ and more cost efficient unit comp, he won. Period.
Basically, punish T early if he is greedy, this has been said multiple times before, yet you deny that this is actually helpful information.
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um nydus earlier and those drops were kind of useless. just mass nydus to get him scared while hes killing them kill the pfs with mass baneling ultra and then kill his factorys not aiming towards his units. then while hes building more production facilities repeat this. keep doing this until he has to death push and win. with that many bases just throw away your units and then rebuild. nice idea of killing the armories with your mutas.
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Sry if my points have already been mentioned but I hesitate to read through 7 sites of text walls with obviously lots of agressive postings. I am a P player, so see my approach as an creative brainstorming rather than experience based.
I think you could have broke his Turtle at the later Stages of the game by using any of the following points:
- Minerals and Gas are limited, Spellcaster energy is not, Infestors Volleyball provides an endless stream of units which can be used to pierce him down
- covering that much space with turrets and PF's creates 2 imbalances you can abuse:
1. If you can sidestep his main defence line you render his whole defense investment useless
2. his units need to be grouped up to rather great chunks to be effective, while you can rely on super cheap, super fast cracklings which are devestating even in small numbers if uncontested
The first one could have been achieved with a dozen SpeedOverlords breaking through his turret line. They dont cost Supply so your army is not afflicted by creating that opening and they are pretty sturdy for the minerals they cost. The 2nd one is achieved by simply spreading the remaining Overlords all over his backalley and then creating multiple (speak 3-4) Nydus at once. Stream Cracklings//Infestors(burrowed) through them and spread them everywhere. Create new Nyduses elsewhere if he moves his units to kill them. The space is just to huge to cover everything at once, especially once you can place them everywhere your lings are. Leave is Frontdefence completly alone, there is absolutly no point in attacking that at all, focus on production facitilies then his army. He can mine as much minerals as he wants if he is not able to convert it into new Units
Whatever you do, dont engage him at his greatest strength the multi-pf's with tanksupport and Thorball in the middle of the map.
- you had a huge mineral advantage all game long; even trading all your ressources to his in a 5Min/2Gas vs 1Min/1Gas Ratio would have benefit you; avoid scenarios where you send in 150 Food worth of Ultras, wait one minute and then send another wave, keep streaming him once you comit to a breakthrough and never stop until you have won or are broke
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On February 17 2011 23:29 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story. again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance? I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not
........Once again, you'll never get into a situation like this unless you screw up. So wanting a cost efficient 100% effective way to deal with it is just being ignorant.
I'll repeat, this is not sim city. The object of the game is to kill your opponent. If you pass up multiple ridiculously easy ways to kill your opponent, then whatever happens afterwards is irrelevant. This kind of conversation is the equivalent of wanting a cost efficient way to kill 3/3 200/200 thors. The answer is, there isn't, the problem is letting him get there in the first place.
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On February 17 2011 23:50 plainsane wrote:
Dear Geo.Rion,
I have read the whole thread and watched your replay, and i have the feeling you are trolling us.
Perfectly viable advice has been given, and you simple deny that it is viable advice. The problem is that you never put real pressure on the terran.
You had a massive lead around the 18 min mark and lost that lead later on because terran was greedy and did not get punished, because of his then superior econ and more cost efficient unit comp, he won. Period.
Basically, punish T early if he is greedy, this has been said multiple times before, yet you deny that this is actually helpful information.
i always said that it is probably right that i should have killed him
I repeadetly said, that regardless of that i'm seeking help, say, if i was unable to kill him early on if i get into this position, what can i do in your opinion.
And people totally neglect that and focus on teh 18th or whatever minute. It is not true i did not put any pressure at terran, i stopped for a while, maybe i shouldn't have.
I'm not neglecting, and i never said there werent anything valid in the comments, there are lots of good things, but the specific problem i was asking about keeps being unadressed by most of the posts
and about trolling you guys, i keep being told i'm not even in masters probably and i suck by bronze level players, are you sure I'm the one who is trolling?
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On February 18 2011 00:21 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:29 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 17 2011 23:22 Sm3agol wrote:
Another one of these.......
Guys, you're not playing Sim City. Your goal is to kill your opponent, not out macro him. If you scout him doing crap like only having 92 farking supply at 20 minutes in, HE SHOULD BE DEAD ALREADY. I doesn't matter what happened after that really. You passed the point of good play. You basically let him eco cheese for 25 minutes, and then expected to just win because you had "better macro". No, better macro is more and better units than him. You had no such thing. 2 more bases is not better macro if you're not using them for anything that directly results in KILLING HIM. If anything, all his PFs means he had more like a 300/200 army, because they can fight too, so he outmacroed you to a 300/200 army.
You're making up your own rules for the game, and then wondering why the game isn't balanced for those rules. It takes a T a lot longer to reach Z in macro...and yet you let him do that without even attempting to punish him. You bank thousands of minerals before you even try to fight him......WTF? At that point you're not ahead any more. If the solution to your problem is merely spending 1k of those minerals on speedlings at the 15 minutes mark.......and just walking in and raping his base.....then you're doing something wrong. If you can easily punish him for incredibly greedy play, and don't, you aren't playing the game correctly, end of story. again why are you so agressive, and why do you make me look like i complain about balance? I seek help for dealing with this kind of situations, regardless if i could have ended this one earlier or not ........Once again, you'll never get into a situation like this unless you screw up. So wanting a cost efficient 100% effective way to deal with it is just being ignorant. I'll repeat, this is not sim city. The object of the game is to kill your opponent. If you pass up multiple ridiculously easy ways to kill your opponent, then whatever happens afterwards is irrelevant. This kind of conversation is the equivalent of wanting a cost efficient way to kill 3/3 200/200 thors. The answer is, there isn't, the problem is letting him get there in the first place.
okey man, taht is totally cool, your answer is Not let it happen, if it happens, you die. It's ok, taht's a valid opinion, i'm wondering if there are others who think that situation still can occur on normal basis, and they know a way to deal with it, there were a couple who made suggestions, which im thankful for, once again
@ Antisocialmunky
I've seen the game, Broodlords back then had +50 health, +1 armor, and +5 demage, as well as ultras had slightly bigger cleave, with those units i believ ei would have been able to break him this game too
On February 17 2011 23:38 Toxi78 wrote:
rename this topic to "Zerg which never attacks."
20 mins into the game, your sitting on 200/200 and have 6k minerals 2k gas, and dont attack. what are you afraid of ?
nevermind, 25 mins, 12k minerals, still not attacking.
lol
that's right i was afraid of attacking, because i lost many games like that, attacking into a passive terran.
I genuinly think in every eco based RTS if one player commits 100% into defence the other player
s respound should not be commit 100% into attack. I committed to eco and tech, which might not have been the correct choise but again, it happened, and i ended up in a situation, which some of you consider canot happen in a normal game, i consider it can, and i d love to hear different ways of approaching that, as mine was clearly not the best one
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On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote:
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
You seriously cant see where you went wrong?
1. He should never have been able to get that 3rd up and running. That should be stopped easily by some lings and the mutas.
2. I would maybe open with infestors instead of mutas. Or at least GET the infestors to really own the vikings.
3. If you had gone Hive and got ultras, you could easily won by the 15 min mark. He had no ground army dude. Just use 400 gas to get the hive.
4. Expand more and drone harder/faster.
Just dont let him get that 3rd so easy. Just get some units out and stop it. Vikings suck vs ground. Also when they go so heavy on the air, why not focus on the ground and own him with owerwhelming forces. If you have a infestor or 2 you can just fungle them and the ovis will be protected by 1 infestor and some hydras.
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On February 18 2011 00:36 Neivler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote:
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
You seriously cant see where you went wrong? 1. He should never have been able to get that 3rd up and running. That should be stopped easily by some lings and the mutas. 2. I would maybe open with infestors instead of mutas. Or at least GET the infestors to really own the vikings. 3. If you had gone Hive and got ultras, you could easily won by the 15 min mark. He had no ground army dude. Just use 400 gas to get the hive. 4. Expand more and drone harder/faster. Just dont let him get that 3rd so easy. Just get some units out and stop it. Vikings suck vs ground. Also when they go so heavy on the air, why not focus on the ground and own him with owerwhelming forces. If you have a infestor or 2 you can just fungle them and the ovis will be protected by 1 infestor and some hydras.
ok, +1 for IT never should happen, thank you for your input
although im not sure what you meant by expand more and drone harder
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Whenever your opponent turtles, you get map control.
With that, you can take the entire map and just get to 200/200 while making sure your opponent never gets to take a third.
As Zerg, build tons of hatches once you max out and stockpile larva.
Once he finally pushes out, trade armies, and instantly remake your whole army from all your larva and you'll kill him.
Never walk your army into his super-duper-tank-battlecruiser-PF-fortress line.
It's what he wants. Make him come to you and kill him the second he does.
If he really never ever moves out at all, just take the entire map and spam 200 food armies at him till he dies, since he won't have any income to replenish his units.
You'll have the entire map so he can't kill you before you kill him.
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On February 18 2011 00:36 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:36 Neivler wrote:On February 17 2011 06:13 Geo.Rion wrote:
I really canot think of any other way to deal with 100% passive terran. Against a passive opponent one usually takes the map very quickly and tries to multi-front attack constantly. I've done this. I've tried to be as supply efficient as possible, morhping all my lings into banes, it simply didnt matter.
You seriously cant see where you went wrong? 1. He should never have been able to get that 3rd up and running. That should be stopped easily by some lings and the mutas. 2. I would maybe open with infestors instead of mutas. Or at least GET the infestors to really own the vikings. 3. If you had gone Hive and got ultras, you could easily won by the 15 min mark. He had no ground army dude. Just use 400 gas to get the hive. 4. Expand more and drone harder/faster. Just dont let him get that 3rd so easy. Just get some units out and stop it. Vikings suck vs ground. Also when they go so heavy on the air, why not focus on the ground and own him with owerwhelming forces. If you have a infestor or 2 you can just fungle them and the ovis will be protected by 1 infestor and some hydras. ok, +1 for IT never should happen, thank you for your input although im not sure what you meant by expand more and drone harder
When you see him tying to take a 3rd that quick of 2 port vikings you know he cant have an army. So a few extra lings to stop it should be there. When he first got it you could go to 80 drones very quickly and almost stop unit production, then get +2 bases up to 5. So you could get a lot of gas. That 5th base was way to late. With that extra gas you could have gone hive a lot earlier and won with ultras.
Expanding off 6 vikings is not something a 3400 master zerg should allow.
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What i understand from all those comments is:
Once a Terran have 2-3 expos, no matter how much more bases or minerals you have (10K/5K in this case), you can't win anymore (or "it's hard"), you should have kill him earlier.
Is that right?
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@ parn : Absolutely not. If you let a Terran build 3-4 Command centers and only SCV with almost no army at all during 20 minutes, letting him unpunished (== not kill him, but at least force him to waste ressources to defend, therefore making his expanding slower) and missing 10-12 opportunities to gain control of the game, then yes, you can't win anymore.
Basically what it means is you cannot let your opp make 10 big mistakes absolutely unpunished while making a lot yourself, and then hope to win just because you stacked more money than him. Not playing fair, e.g not making defenses, is exactly like a cheese : as a Zerg when you dont scout a cheese, you loose. Same happens with economic cheese, at the difference you dont loose outright but later. Droning hard is good but it doesnt win you games by itself.
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There's alot of emphasis in the foreign scene to outmacro your opponent, and while this is good, if the opportunity arises where you can kill him/pressure him effectively, you should be doing it. This isn't GhandiCraft. There's no reason to be so passive!
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On February 18 2011 02:58 DjayEl wrote:
@ parn : Absolutely not. If you let a Terran build 3-4 Command centers and only SCV with almost no army at all during 20 minutes, letting him unpunished (== not kill him, but at least force him to waste ressources to defend, therefore making his expanding slower) and missing 10-12 opportunities to gain control of the game, then yes, you can't win anymore.
Is it 10 or 12 opportunities?
Total dishonest post.
You all know that if the Terran had lose the game, came here to ask why, you would all answer: "you were to passive, don't let the Zerg expand, etc ...".
Both players went for a macro game, the Zerg did better, the Zerg lost, it's as simple as that. This is not why he loses the game.
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EPT
