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On February 22 2011 18:52 iEchoic wrote:
Just watched the game, here's some thoughts -
1) Hyperdub obviously ran the build a lot in practice with oGs/TL and had success with it for him to run it in his GSL match. This is a good indication that it's been successful, even if he lost this game, so that makes me happy.
2) Hyperdub's opening was a bit poorly controlled and was not successful in doing really any damage. This put him in an insurmountable hole against a FE.
3) I'm pretty happy how it fared against MVP given that he was so far behind and managed to hold on for a good while. I think if he tried to play standard from his botched opening he would have died 10 minutes earlier. There were a lot of poor control decisions from Hyperdub, probably a fair bit of nervousness.
4) He didn't run my opening, he did his own opening, which is cool. The composition worked pretty well though considering MVPs army was probably 2x as costly every single battle and he still managed to repel it multiple times.
Was really cool to watch though!
I missed the opening, but I assumed points 1,2 and 4. Agree with #3. It was very exciting to see, I think it just showed that the comp needs a "ZvT" mentality (as zerg). Hyperdub was too afraid of losing his BFH to siege tanks so he didn't produce/use enough. MVP's bio was then in no danger of over extending itself and this made the difference in the air war.
In any XvT(anks) you need to force the tanks to unsiege and move. Let the spread out and then attack undefended areas.
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Pronounced your name on an international stream, you lucky dog: Eye-Echo-Icy
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congrats on getting a shout out from the GSL iEchoic !!!!!
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It was pretty cool to hear Artosis noting that blue flame hellion/banshee/viking was a North American strategy starting to get play in Korea. If that's not an endorsement worth touting, I don't know what is. Congratulations, iEchoic!
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That was a fun to watch. I hope we can see some more of this strategy from a player like Jinro.
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On February 23 2011 02:58 Snaphoo wrote:
It was pretty cool to hear Artosis noting that blue flame hellion/banshee/viking was a North American strategy starting to get play in Korea. If that's not an endorsement worth touting, I don't know what is. Congratulations, iEchoic!
He even mentioned iEchoic except he said it weird: "EYE - ECHO - EYE - SEE".
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What I noticed in the MVP game most was that iEchoic tends to counter drop more but Hyperdub was too far behind to do it much, plus its effing MVP who is going to be way above average at drop response.
Cool build - way to go iEchoic!
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I was a little surprised that Hyperdub didn't try to get some marine kills with his hellions right after he repelled MVP's attack at the time MVP was taking his third (around 18:00 in game time, 32:00 gom video time). I'm not very familiar with this build, but it seems to me like the hellions could clean up after all the siege tanks are eliminated.
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^^
I agree and I think this partially because Hyperdub just didn't have enough hellions. I see two reasons for that, the first being that his economy was way behind (partially because of unfortunate positioning and poor control on the first drop), the second being that he only opened with one factory so it took a lot of time to get the second one running.
Hyperdub ran the composition reasonably well though, getting vikings when he needed vikings, getting banshees when he needed banshees. More hellions and he'd have been golden despite being pretty far in the hole.
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On February 22 2011 04:46 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 23:58 mTw|NarutO wrote:
One guy just went pure mech - no way you can beat it. PDD from Raven is not enough to deal with more thank 5 Thors, since Thors shoot 4 missiles (4 PDD shots) so yeah, its not really viable against mech in my opinion - since you also can't cripple his economy. If we're talking that late (the point where you have more than 5 thors), have you ran battlecruisers? I have a replay up against Perplexity in the replay pack where he runs pure thor/marine (not pure mech, but all his gas was going into thors) and by BCs mop up the thors pretty well. There were a couple battles with 4+ thors that I won cost efficiently. Also, once I realized he was trying to mass thors and turtle I mass expanded, took a 3rd and 4th, one of them being the gold. I agree you can't run just raven banshee vs mass thor, but BCs have done really well in my experience. Assuming equal resources if one person is running all their gas into thor and one person is running it all into BCs the BCs should come out on top.
He has 5 Thors before you have a good BC count. I know BC counter Thors, but he can push way earlier than you can switch to BC in my opinio, but I'll try again.
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Nice shoutout  I hope this build becomes more popular.
iEchoic is probably the TL member of the year, considering being a fairly unknown player with a background in AoE, then going to the friendsday wednesday (This is the equivilant of winning a three GSLs in a row), and then getting a shoutout on GSL O.o
Keep up the good work ♥
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United States7483 Posts
On February 22 2011 19:18 SouLja wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 18:53 iEchoic wrote:On February 22 2011 18:52 SouLja wrote:
I thought that MVP game was extremely one sided, but that's just me. It was definitely one sided, but it had to do more with the fact that he FEd and then hyperdub controlled his drop badly and did no damage. Of course if your opponent FEs and you control your attack poorly and lose it, you're going to be way behind no matter what composition you run. And that's my main problem with the build. It all relies on you doing a lot of damage in the early game and then beating him with a different composition when he's crippled. I think after you do the blue flame helion drop and take out 1/2 or more of his scvs, you can pretty much do anything to win, but instead you just have helion + viking + banshee do the killing rather than x+y+z.
No, it relies on doing economic damage if your opponent fast expands, which you should be able to do, since he'll be quite vulnerable to it. Hyperdub just screwed up, that's all.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
I think the very fact that this thread is so huge and there are so many other threads, along with the proliferation of this composition, is an indication of its success. I think there might be a better way to open, depending on the map, but I don't think anyone can doubt that this is something momentous to have witnessed...
Now I just gotta get the APM up to use this build. Not accidentally suiciding all your hellions into the opponent's death-ball takes more speed than I currently have. This build FEELS vulnerable every time you use it, like you have to keep up constant harassing threat, or your opponent will just roll in with his ball of terrible doom and destroy you. 
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On February 23 2011 07:21 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the very fact that this thread is so huge and there are so many other threads, along with the proliferation of this composition, is an indication of its success.
No.
[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683
It's a build that has a very high chance of success due to unpredictability and combined one-base play plus monstrous damage potential. Nothing more.
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On February 23 2011 07:31 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 07:21 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the very fact that this thread is so huge and there are so many other threads, along with the proliferation of this composition, is an indication of its success. No. [H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683It's a build that has a very high chance of success due to unpredictability and combined one-base play plus monstrous damage potential. Nothing more.
The obvious differences being that
(a) This is a robust well thought out strategy that can be applied to an entire game, not just an opening build.
(b) This is not a cheesy build that can be easily hard countered if scouted.
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On February 23 2011 07:51 whatthefat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 07:31 danielsan wrote:On February 23 2011 07:21 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the very fact that this thread is so huge and there are so many other threads, along with the proliferation of this composition, is an indication of its success. No. [H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683It's a build that has a very high chance of success due to unpredictability and combined one-base play plus monstrous damage potential. Nothing more. The obvious differences being that (a) This is a robust well thought out strategy that can be applied to an entire game, not just an opening build. (b) This is not a cheesy build that can be easily hard countered if scouted.
This can indeed be hard countered by thor rush and thus, is cheese.
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On February 23 2011 08:25 Tierfight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 07:51 whatthefat wrote:On February 23 2011 07:31 danielsan wrote:On February 23 2011 07:21 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the very fact that this thread is so huge and there are so many other threads, along with the proliferation of this composition, is an indication of its success. No. [H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683It's a build that has a very high chance of success due to unpredictability and combined one-base play plus monstrous damage potential. Nothing more. The obvious differences being that (a) This is a robust well thought out strategy that can be applied to an entire game, not just an opening build. (b) This is not a cheesy build that can be easily hard countered if scouted. This can indeed be hard countered by thor rush and thus, is cheese.
Do you have any proof? Have you done anything but try to criticize this build and discredit the contributor? You've done nothing but shoved away evidence that this build can stand up to a large diversity of openings and spat back "Thor Rush counters this." Prove it. Upload a replay of you stopping this "cheese".
Come back to me when you've contributed to this community as much as iEchoic has and when your playstyle is featured on the most notable web show in the Starcraft community and your builds are used at the highest tier of play.
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On February 23 2011 08:25 Tierfight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 07:51 whatthefat wrote:On February 23 2011 07:31 danielsan wrote:On February 23 2011 07:21 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the very fact that this thread is so huge and there are so many other threads, along with the proliferation of this composition, is an indication of its success. No. [H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683It's a build that has a very high chance of success due to unpredictability and combined one-base play plus monstrous damage potential. Nothing more. The obvious differences being that (a) This is a robust well thought out strategy that can be applied to an entire game, not just an opening build. (b) This is not a cheesy build that can be easily hard countered if scouted. This can indeed be hard countered by thor rush and thus, is cheese.
Post replays please. Criticism is fine but at least try to match the evidence I posted instead of giving me worthless one-liners.
Thor rush doesn't counter the build, you can counter-drop and hold off the Thor by producing a siege tank, landing vikings, and attacking with SCVs. What I did say is that it's tricky, and it is - it's a micro battle and there's no simple solution like make a bunker -> win.
Banshee openings are considered a standard TvT opening and they have the same trickiness associated with stopping a Thor drop/rush. FE builds also have trouble with a rushed + repaired Thor (Boxer lost straight-up to a thor rush while FEing in GSL2). That doesn't mean they're cheese. Thor is a tricky opening to play against with a lot of builds.
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On February 23 2011 10:25 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 08:25 Tierfight wrote:
This can indeed be hard countered by thor rush and thus, is cheese. If you're not going to post replays, stop shitting up my thread please. Criticism is fine but at least try to match the evidence I posted instead of giving me worthless one-liners. Thor rush doesn't counter the build, you can counter-drop and hold off the Thor by producing a siege tank, landing vikings, and attacking with SCVs. What I did say is that it's tricky, and it is - it's a micro battle and there's no simple solution like make a bunker -> win. Banshee openings are considered a standard TvT opening and they have the same trickiness associated with stopping a Thor drop/rush. FE builds also have trouble with a rushed + repaired Thor (Boxer lost straight-up to a thor rush while FEing in GSL2). That doesn't mean they're cheese. Thor is a tricky opening to play against with a lot of builds.
I doubt he has replays. It's far more likely he gets humiliated by your build repeatedly and thus is trying some lame attempt to discredit it so that he doesn't have to face it as often. If he had REALLY discovered a counter he would instead be suggesting that people should use your build even MORE often so that he could rack up easy wins.
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Marines actually counter blue flame hellions because hellions have latency in shooting after stopping movement and thus, gives marines a chance to dodge the fire. And it is hard to get good amount of marines in line of fire if marine player microes perfectly.
Perfect marine micro > perfect hellion micro
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EPT
