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I dont need a counter, i know how to beat this, it's just annoying i HAVE to OPEN / prepare for it every single game, i can't try anything different cause most likely ill die to some idiot copying this.
On February 22 2011 08:38 -Mav- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 07:56 danielsan wrote:
thanks for making this cheese public, now 50% of TvT is like this.
Used to be fun before. 1. Encounter new build 2.The same strat I always use doesn't work. 3.MUST BE CHEESE. But anyway, this build is in no way shape or form cheese. If you want to call it cheese im calling muta/ling/bane cheese because this build works in the same fashion as it. Hellions kill marines, banshees mop up ground forces, and vikings control the air. If they get thors you respond with battlecruisers, as a zerg would respond with broodlords.
cant find the line with me complaining i have no response.
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On February 22 2011 08:58 Victim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 08:38 -Mav- wrote:On February 22 2011 07:56 danielsan wrote:
thanks for making this cheese public, now 50% of TvT is like this.
Used to be fun before. 1. Encounter new build 2.The same strat I always use doesn't work. 3.MUST BE CHEESE. But anyway, this build is in no way shape or form cheese. If you want to call it cheese im calling muta/ling/bane cheese because this build works in the same fashion as it. Hellions kill marines, banshees mop up ground forces, and vikings control the air. If they get thors you respond with battlecruisers, as a zerg would respond with broodlords. If the m/l/b zerg strategy remained on one base until it could nydus banelings into my mineral line (or not), I'd say it was pretty cheesy too, even if the mid game plan zerg used was the same as normal.
The real question is why don't zergs do that?? I'm pretty sure nydus banelings is totally badass.
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You just got a shoutout on GSL!
Artosis mentioned you because Hyperdub is using your strat against IMMVP.
Sadly dub isn't making enough hellions
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yeah, he just lost to IMMvp with marine tank viking, woulda been cool if hyperdub won a bigshot like Mvp with ur buildbut o well, i use the build in league games and i am very successful with it, love it!
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well we just saw Hyperdub use this strat against MVP and it did pretty well. So, congrats iEchoic i don't really like the build but i am not bitter enough to know that it has potential :D Congrats your strategy was used to try to take out the best Terran :D
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you should be proud echo, your build was used (not even to its maximum potential) by a progamer 
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I was skeptical but, build seems pretty solid. Hyperdub didnt exactly play the greatest, but its definitely a build you can throw in especially against heavy bio players.
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Just watched the game, here's some thoughts -
1) Hyperdub obviously ran the build a lot in practice with oGs/TL and had success with it for him to run it in his GSL match. This is a good indication that it's been successful, even if he lost this game, so that makes me happy.
2) Hyperdub's opening was a bit poorly controlled and was not successful in doing really any damage. This put him in an insurmountable hole against a FE.
3) I'm pretty happy how it fared against MVP given that he was so far behind and managed to hold on for a good while. I think if he tried to play standard from his botched opening he would have died 10 minutes earlier. There were a lot of poor control decisions from Hyperdub, probably a fair bit of nervousness.
4) He didn't run my opening, he did his own opening, which is cool. The composition worked pretty well though considering MVPs army was probably 2x as costly every single battle and he still managed to repel it multiple times.
Was really cool to watch though!
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I thought that MVP game was extremely one sided, but that's just me.
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On February 22 2011 18:52 SouLja wrote:
I thought that MVP game was extremely one sided, but that's just me.
It was definitely one sided, but it had to do more with the fact that he FEd and then hyperdub controlled his drop badly and did no damage. Of course if your opponent FEs and you control your attack poorly and lose it, you're going to be way behind no matter what composition you run.
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the build used by hyperdup was not iechoics 2fact 2port build. he did a variation which was a 1 fact 3 port build. during the vod you can clearly see he just did not have the hellion power to take out the rines on the ground. i believe if he went 2 fact 2 port he would have had a better chance.
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On February 22 2011 18:53 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 18:52 SouLja wrote:
I thought that MVP game was extremely one sided, but that's just me. It was definitely one sided, but it had to do more with the fact that he FEd and then hyperdub controlled his drop badly and did no damage. Of course if your opponent FEs and you control your attack poorly and lose it, you're going to be way behind no matter what composition you run.
It was one sided but IT WAS LESS one sided then it should of been if hyperdub tried to play standard.
This is the best Terran player in the world and the game went to about 20 minutes. I think if Hyper would of expanded WAY faster it would of turned out differently.
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On February 22 2011 18:55 Deesedlack wrote:
the build used by hyperdup was not iechoics 2fact 2port build. he did a variation which was a 1 fact 3 port build. during the vod you can clearly see he just did not have the hellion power to take out the rines on the ground. i believe if he went 2 fact 2 port he would have had a better chance.
More hellions wouldn't of done anything against MVP's siege tank numbers. He scouted siege tank so there was no reason.
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but all he needed to do was take out all of mvps rines. you will see mvps rines straight up against blue flame hellions at least one time in the match and there just were not enough hellions to take out the marines. i thought the idea was to trade helions for marines and then the bansehees with your proper viking support can finish the rest
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On February 22 2011 19:08 BetterFasterStronger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 18:53 iEchoic wrote:On February 22 2011 18:52 SouLja wrote:
I thought that MVP game was extremely one sided, but that's just me. It was definitely one sided, but it had to do more with the fact that he FEd and then hyperdub controlled his drop badly and did no damage. Of course if your opponent FEs and you control your attack poorly and lose it, you're going to be way behind no matter what composition you run. It was one sided but IT WAS LESS one sided then it should of been if hyperdub tried to play standard.
Definitely, he managed to repel more expensive armies several times. His economy couldn't catch up but his composition was doing a damn good job.
His army was about 1/2 as expensive a few times he managed to hold off - imagine if he had 1/2 cost in bio or tanks? Probably a GG right there.
His opening actually wasn't bad, personally I like the 2fact2port a bit more because I think being able to open a can of 2x banshees on that FE would have been really strong, and he'd have a 2nd factory so he could get hellions faster. But I think 8marine/hellion drop against a FE is a reasonably strong opening as well, he just had a poor drop position and a bit of mis micro that made the drop pretty weak.
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Just wanted to say to iEchoic: THANK YOU
I was struggling to find a solid build in TvT and this build is the one for me.
Critics of the build, although mostly correct, need to remember that you can't assume that your opponent will do this build, or you lose badly to other stuff. And that's the beauty of this build, the counters are quite non-standard which would put the player into disadvantage, if the player doesnt actually go for the iEchoic build!
Great build. Winning 60%+ of my TvTs with this.
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On February 22 2011 18:53 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 18:52 SouLja wrote:
I thought that MVP game was extremely one sided, but that's just me. It was definitely one sided, but it had to do more with the fact that he FEd and then hyperdub controlled his drop badly and did no damage. Of course if your opponent FEs and you control your attack poorly and lose it, you're going to be way behind no matter what composition you run.
And that's my main problem with the build. It all relies on you doing a lot of damage in the early game and then beating him with a different composition when he's crippled. I think after you do the blue flame helion drop and take out 1/2 or more of his scvs, you can pretty much do anything to win, but instead you just have helion + viking + banshee do the killing rather than x+y+z.
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Seems pretty good however I think it needs a transition, I have a hard time thinking of a way it can deal with thors unless you manage to rush cruizers. I also think some additional diversity could be good, the huge strength with the build is it's mobility and it punishes your opponents mistakes, however mixing in some tanks to hold key positions so you can devote more to drops could be effective.
Another thing I was thinking of - wouldn't mass vikings deal with it fairly well? As long as you have more vikings than your opponent they can't go bc, and vikings should deal well with the helions on the ground, so if one devotes entirely to viking doesn't it deal well with the build?
Edit 2 ~ To me it seems that thors are the most apt way to deal with the build considering the basis of the current meta-game. It's pretty easy to transition into thors if you're already going marine tank rolling upgrades. I do like the style but think it needs moar =p
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Mind.SC
To go mass pure viking, you would need to know for sure 100% that he is going hellion/banshee/viking. Anything else will roflstomp you. In other words, the guy has to literally tell you he is doing the iechoic build.
I thinnk that Thors are a far better option in countering this, as you are not overextending yourself.
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If you open 1/1/1 you already have the tech for vikings and the build reveals itself in the first ~7 minutes, I'm not saying open 3 port viking unless you really want to =p
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EPT
