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[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 31

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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valheru
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia966 Posts
February 19 2011 06:03 GMT
#601
^^ That's happened to me a few times it all really comes down to scouting. If you see it then build marines and a bunker there is no reason to follow the build to the letter if it will get you killed. If the all-in comes later you should have some hellions, if you position them in an arc at the top of the ramp they murder any and every light unit that comes up.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
jacosajh
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
2919 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 08:50:49
February 19 2011 08:48 GMT
#602
I always took TvT to be a toss-up despite playing TvP and TvZ fairly well. I loved TvT in SC1 and considered it my best matchup, but I just didn't understand SC2 TvT until I read this. Everything just seemed to be like it was in SC1 PvP where builds had a rock-paper-scissor effect on each other, more so than any other matchup anyways (not like in ZvZ where it was all Muta-ling since this was the most effective build for the matchup). I haven't even tried it yet, but I think everything just clicked. If this doesn't become the standard for playing Terran for a while, I'll be really surprised.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
February 19 2011 14:20 GMT
#603
About the all-ins, if you take the xel'naga towers you can see it coming. I personnally use my marines (of course it's easiest on maps like XNC or SP) and retreat them when I spot the attack/all-in, so that I can defend.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
February 20 2011 08:26 GMT
#604
iEchoic,how do you deal with a terran that does a hellion drop of his own? or does some really early 3 rax push.
Fedor
Profile Joined January 2011
United States42 Posts
February 20 2011 10:38 GMT
#605
I boil this build down to three things:


1. make more vikings, if they have more vikings. (throw in a raven if you're feeling snarky)
2. making more banshees, if they have marauders/tanks.
3. make some BCs, if they have thors.

Expand, expand, and macro.

Fun for all.

Drinc
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden98 Posts
February 20 2011 11:06 GMT
#606
Thor + Viking counters this.

They target fire your BC with vikings and Thors, and then you just have vikings left against a few thors and a few vikings and then you're done with.

This is the buildorder i lost against with this build.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
February 20 2011 15:05 GMT
#607
I don't think a full transition to battlecruisers is that good : they are great against marines and thors because they die slowly, but they are not so good against the rest (tanks, marauders, etc.) because they don't kill it fast.
You need to keep making banshees also (in some way, the BC is great to draw fire to him, and the yamato to snipe thors).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Bleak
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Turkey3059 Posts
February 20 2011 16:31 GMT
#608
Battlecruisers are really good in lategame. Once thors are out, they kill banshees before they can deal any damage. Besides, a fleet of 3/3/3 battlecruisers are almost unstoppable if your opponent does not have a shitton of vikings which in this case you would kill him.
"I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance. "
Kujawa
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States137 Posts
February 20 2011 16:37 GMT
#609
i was able to beat this with marauder viking......no lie would post replay but don't know how .
get the fuck out ball- hot_bid
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 17:14:46
February 20 2011 16:53 GMT
#610
You can host them here (you have to register to upload though).

To respond to Bleak, the thing is that before you get 3/3 BCs, you'll get them out either because you have a lead which (what? that?) allows you to, or because you scout a thor switch. In this case you don't have a fleet yet, and they don't have that great a dps is your opponent upgrades his units' armor.
They are powerful, but before you get a critical mass you'll need something else besides hellions to kill stuff quickly.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
VashTS
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1675 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-21 13:34:22
February 21 2011 13:33 GMT
#611
On February 18 2011 13:19 iEchoic wrote:
SjoW ran the Hellion/Air composition (with a different build order) v KawaiiRice with success in a recent clan war, a link to the replay pack is below (it's game 1 on Xelnaga) -

link

I clicked on the REPLAYS HERE button, but the replay you are talking about wasn't in the file. Little help, anybody? =(


On February 19 2011 02:02 Hawkke wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2011 10:50 entropius wrote:
On February 17 2011 09:53 Hawkke wrote:
Ghost Marauder > Hellion Banshee.



Ghosts cost more, are less mobile, have less health, and do less damage than banshees. If you're spending your gas on ghosts and I'm spending my gas on banshees I win, because -- as day9 says -- I just fucking kill your ghosts, while your marauders watch.

If you're suggesting ghosts as a way to kill hellions, then, sure -- ghosts don't take extra damage from them. But this is only relevant if you have a pile of marines to kill the banshees with, and I don't think the ghosts will kill the hellions before the hellions kill most of your marines and then the banshees eat everything else.

Ghosts don't seem all that useful unless you're planning on using their spells, neither of which is relevant here. (Remember the banshees in this strategy do not rely on cloak.)

If you want ghost/marine/marauder, where the marauders and ghosts try to keep the marines safe, then it comes down to micro, where you have a disadvantage. If the marines are in the ball or in front of it the hellions kill them; if the marines are behind then the banshees start blowing up marauders/ghosts.

Plus, the banshee/hellion player is more mobile than you; that marine force that you're trying to keep safe from the hellions is the only thing you have that can shoot up well enough to kill banshees, and they have to cover anywhere in your base that's not covered by turrets while simultaneously not getting killed by hellions.


http://www.youtube.com/edwardstarcraft#p/u/4/nFz9g5cHsEI

Looks like he saw Ghosts and didn't bother to get a Raven. You can't blame the build for that, only the player.

EDIT: Typo.
VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009
Tierfight
Profile Joined February 2011
Belgium49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-21 14:45:42
February 21 2011 14:45 GMT
#612
This build will loose against normal and solid marine tank build with turrets around base.

The point is, that it is not answer to try and win this build in air dominancy, it is about keeping static defence with turrets and securing ground with tanks and marine shootin both air and ground. Marines will do fine against even blue flame hellions if they are in proper formation and keep moving which effectively nullifies hellions aoe damage. I know iEchoic has talked about marines and how "spreading" does not help, but he is wrong about that. Proper marine control will absolutely kill all blue flame hellion attempts.

So, solid marine tank build, maybe with additional thors will counter this iEchoic build easily. I would not ever call this eEchoic build "solid", it relies heavily on winning enemy outright due to poor response and looses in later stages of the game because iEchoic is behind in production of tanks, marines, and whatnot. Sure he could try to go battlecruisers, but they will get killed by mass marines and additional vikings/seeker missiles which probably are in the game at this point.
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
February 21 2011 14:58 GMT
#613
I think I met someone on EU who solved the build completely. I may have played it a bit wrong, but I worked on it and on my level (atm 3800+ EU) you can't stay 2 factory / 2 starport all game, because you can't really deal economic damage early on.

One guy just went pure mech - no way you can beat it. PDD from Raven is not enough to deal with more thank 5 Thors, since Thors shoot 4 missiles (4 PDD shots) so yeah, its not really viable against mech in my opinion - since you also can't cripple his economy.

Another build that is insanely good against it is no Gas FE with bunker and 3 supply wall fast tech to tanks. He can prevent Hellion harass with the bunker (slide scvs if you are scared) and Siegetanks - he gets turrets against Banshee and he will get fast ports for Vikings. If he has more vikings than you, you are screwed, if you make vikings you can't really make lots of banshees. So if he wins the airwar because has a superiorvikingcount, your hellions can't beat siegetank / marine. If he sees you have lots of vikings, he'll land his vikings and your banshees (won't have a lot) are probably not enough to beat his force.

That are at least 2 builds I saw countering it pretty hard - all other builds are beatable so far.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-21 19:52:29
February 21 2011 19:46 GMT
#614
On February 21 2011 23:58 mTw|NarutO wrote:
One guy just went pure mech - no way you can beat it. PDD from Raven is not enough to deal with more thank 5 Thors, since Thors shoot 4 missiles (4 PDD shots) so yeah, its not really viable against mech in my opinion - since you also can't cripple his economy.


If we're talking that late (the point where you have more than 5 thors), have you ran battlecruisers? I have a replay up against Perplexity in the replay pack where he runs pure thor/marine (not pure mech, but all his gas was going into thors) and by BCs mop up the thors pretty well. There were a couple battles with 4+ thors that I won cost efficiently.

Also, once I realized he was trying to mass thors and turtle I mass expanded, took a 3rd and 4th, one of them being the gold.

I agree you can't run just raven banshee vs mass thor, but BCs have done really well in my experience. Assuming equal resources if one person is running all their gas into thor and one person is running it all into BCs the BCs should come out on top.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
danielsan
Profile Joined December 2010
Romania399 Posts
February 21 2011 22:56 GMT
#615
thanks for making this cheese public, now 50% of TvT is like this.

Used to be fun before.
HardCorey
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States709 Posts
February 21 2011 22:59 GMT
#616
On February 22 2011 07:56 danielsan wrote:
thanks for making this cheese public, now 50% of TvT is like this.

Used to be fun before.


This build is far from cheese. Just because many people interpret this as rushing for fast blue-flame in a cheesy manner and perform the build in subpar ways does not mean it is cheesy.
Don't Worry, Be Happy.
rysecake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2632 Posts
February 21 2011 23:00 GMT
#617
On February 22 2011 07:56 danielsan wrote:
thanks for making this cheese public, now 50% of TvT is like this.

Used to be fun before.


It's far more than 50% lol.
The Notorious Winkles
-Mav-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States50 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-21 23:38:41
February 21 2011 23:38 GMT
#618
On February 22 2011 07:56 danielsan wrote:
thanks for making this cheese public, now 50% of TvT is like this.

Used to be fun before.


1. Encounter new build

2.The same strat I always use doesn't work.

3.MUST BE CHEESE.


But anyway, this build is in no way shape or form cheese. If you want to call it cheese im calling muta/ling/bane cheese because this build works in the same fashion as it. Hellions kill marines, banshees mop up ground forces, and vikings control the air. If they get thors you respond with battlecruisers, as a zerg would respond with broodlords.
Victim
Profile Joined August 2010
United States188 Posts
February 21 2011 23:58 GMT
#619
On February 22 2011 08:38 -Mav- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 07:56 danielsan wrote:
thanks for making this cheese public, now 50% of TvT is like this.

Used to be fun before.


1. Encounter new build

2.The same strat I always use doesn't work.

3.MUST BE CHEESE.


But anyway, this build is in no way shape or form cheese. If you want to call it cheese im calling muta/ling/bane cheese because this build works in the same fashion as it. Hellions kill marines, banshees mop up ground forces, and vikings control the air. If they get thors you respond with battlecruisers, as a zerg would respond with broodlords.


If the m/l/b zerg strategy remained on one base until it could nydus banelings into my mineral line (or not), I'd say it was pretty cheesy too, even if the mid game plan zerg used was the same as normal.



Sleight
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
2471 Posts
February 21 2011 23:59 GMT
#620
Play a standard Fact Port into Siege Expand is very safe vs this build. You opening with a VIking first and staying active with it prevents any real danger of hellion drops and the early Tank lets you threaten their front safely. There is no rush to "counter" this build. Opening nice and solidly and playing Viking Marauder or Thor Bio feels very reasonable and whoever is playing better will win. I like having a ton of mediocre players attempt this because they don't understand the play between Vikings and ground control, meaning hard switches to pure Bio or pure Viking to wipe out either air or ground is a nice little midgame trick.

If you play safely, this opening is a blessing because its tricks are nothing particularly overwhelming individually.
One Love
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