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Thought this would make for an interesting discussion, and seeing that there is no such thread I decided to make one.
Anyway, now to the point.
As many of you may know Sjow is pretty unique with his openings where he simply doesn't scout. People often give new players advice that scouting is one of the most important tasks to do during a game yet one of the top EU terrans seems to do the opposite.
Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play?
Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows?
Poll: Is there any benefit of not scouting early?No, you need that early scout (314) 63% Yes (186) 37% 500 total votes Your vote: Is there any benefit of not scouting early? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No, you need that early scout
edit: added poll
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He lost to lastshadow because lost shadow deicded that because he didn't scout he was just going to proxy double rax him.
I think the opinion that unscouted cheeses = you still lose is wrong, and, i may be wrong, maybe his solid builds do defend cheese, but if he goes to korea server where everyone all ins really well and often he may change it =P
Not scouting is a pretty minor mineral gain, say 50-100 or so, which, in most builds, is only a few seconds. In some other builds its significant but its going to lose you much less games than not scouting.
Remember also that he's terran and they are generally the safest from cheese. As zerg and protoss vs protoss a 1 gas 4 warpgate literally beats 95% of "solid standard builds" and we see some terrans get away with fast expanding vs 4 warpgates and still surviving because of bunkers. Again ZvZ you need to know if he's going for a fast expand or baneling bust or early pool or some other like roach, because they all need different responses. If you go roach as a solid build and he has a hatch done by the time your ovi gets to his base the game is over he just needs some speedlings early then he can afford way more roaches than you.
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Well if he doesn't want to change his build depending on what he sees, he might as well wait. I am not sure though how well his build does against double offrax + scv all in and things like that. I feel better when i know whats going on and the information can pay off if something unorthodox happens and gets discovered.
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I don't see why you would ever forgo early scouting. You literally don't lose anything by doing it and the potential information you could gather are amazing. (early double gas, 2 rax before orbital, 2gate, proxy anything, cannon rush..)
You also can get control of xel'naga watch tower or leave your worker in front of their base to see when they are moving out with what composition.
There is absolutely no reason not to scout. ever.
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tbh i don't like it, i'm for late scout for more economical build (in tvt you don't really need to scout tho only position and how many marines he has). you can very easily rush him with 2proxy gate or rax or whatever. In TvP and TvZ definately scout, always, there's always good information you can get. In TvT it's not that necessary.
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Might be possible for Terran since they are quite strong early game. However, especially as a Zerg player, it's essential to know the spawn location/rush distance of your opponent at the very least. Knowing when and what units to produce as Zerg is absolutely necessary and playing blindly only spells trouble.
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Canada1637 Posts
I think its ridiculous and if it really is viable in the long term SC2 has failed. I don't know too much about Sjow's play and to the extent that he doesn't scout, I think some MUs on some maps delaying scouting for a great deal of time may be fine, but I don't see how the economical benefits of not scouting balance out with playing completely blind.
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Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
And to back up my statement: I've seen him get caught off guard by mutalisks and other sneak attacks... That can easily be avoided by having better map awareness. Furthermore, nydus worms become a huge pain in the ass unless you have good awareness. And really, if you're floating on 2000 like he often is, you can afford that.
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Like almost any strategy/build, it has its place in certain situations.
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I can't think of a single instance where having less information about your opponent gives you any sort of advantage. Are you sure he never scouts? It seems like he'd be extremely vulnerable to both very greedy builds (Nexus first, CC first), as well as a ton of cheese.
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Its pretty simple. If he doesnt change his build depending on what he see? Why scout?
You might aswel stay in base with that one scv and gain extra minerals... Its stupid to scout if you aint looking for anything.
For example. On steppes of war vs zerg as protoss. You can scout on 9 probe to see if he does some fast pool. But you wont actually change anything in your build that early, so you might just scout on 11 probe instead.. It will gain the exact same result, just that you get slightly more minerals if you do later scout.
I dont really know what build sjow uses when he does this, but Id assume he does some kinda of 2rax stuff.. Scouting around your base with a marine or something might be just enough to stop any cheese.. And no matter what the opponent does he will do same stuffs.. Say exp into 6rax.
Then why scout if he doesnt change his gameplan ?
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On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote:
Why doesn't he scout?
Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it.
Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard.
On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote:
Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-1928-1-0-DESC
Don't miss page 2!
EDIT: Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line.
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On December 14 2010 21:49 Gigaudas wrote:Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
Well, when I played him I beat him pretty badly. Maybe he had a bad day, though, but every time I watch his stream I see him floating at 2000+ minerals + not having any map awareness at all.
Tbh though, he'd be really really good if he could spend all his money. Even with 2000 minerals in the bank, he still wins most of his games.
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he prob have a BOs in mind for every race/map
but yeh not scouting is prone to cheese
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On December 14 2010 21:51 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 21:49 Gigaudas wrote:On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote:
Why doesn't he scout? Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here: Well, when I played him I beat him pretty badly. Maybe he had a bad day, though, but every time I watch his stream I see him floating at 2000+ minerals + not having any map awareness at all.
He might have been drunk with five friends watching and a hooker sucking his c*ck for all you know 
Seriously though, statistics don't lie. SjoW is a beast when it comes to winning games.
EDIT: back to this: "Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line." on an unrelated note -holy cow, MorroW would've been such a beast if he sticked with Terran, he's still number two in number of tournament wins (purely with Terran) and he started practicing Zerg a month or two after the release :o
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He does scout. But with marines, not SCVs.
Of what I've seen atleast
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its not like hes not scouting he just does it later besides his midgame scout and map awerness is probably better than any other player i've seen (never seen anybody fighting for xelnaga tower vision he does)
anyway i think hes just stubborn and underestimates information which gives you early knowlage about opponent position (close/cross etc) and amout of gayers he has, i dont see a reason why wouldnt he sacrefice this few extra minerals for earlier scouting considering his macro is quite bad and he often end up with alot of those anyway.
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I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
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no, it's stupid, but he probably has a build order that he's determined won't change depending on his opponent's strategy, and therefore sees no need to scout.
do NOT even give credit to not scouting as to call it a style, it's just stupidity. i don't care how good anyone is at the game. you're playing russian roulette if you don't scout at some point, end of story. i don't watch sjow's stream so i don't know if he just doesn't scout or he only scouts much later than usual, so i won't say he's bad or anything. he probably knows exactly what to look for and scouts exactly at that point and not a second sooner.
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EPT
