EPTSjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 5
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netherDrake
Singapore1831 Posts
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
As far as using an scv to check for an FE that's just retarded early when I could send units instead. I open with 2 rax in tvz too but I send an scv ahead of marines to use it for blocking. No need to send it in way ahead. In tvt as has been said there's really no need for an scv scout if you play a safe build and don't rush for addons. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
There is definitely a lot more to it and there's a lot of builds that benefit from it. For example if you're Terran your scouting SCV should never find a stargate against a decent Protoss and thus your early scout scv should give you zero info regarding void rays. However if instead of scouting early you scout later but build your factory in a position where you can float it over his base to see all that he is doing you will have saved minerals and know everything you need to know at the time you can know about it. This could be done with a build that is safe vs 4 gate allin for example, instead of a build that needs adjustment against a 4 gate allin. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
For example. if an attack hasn't happened at whatever timing a 6pool should come then he's not 6pooling. It's a bad strat-example but I've hardly played sc2 compared to bw so if someone can give a more rewarding strategy-example to why this works please do  | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
So no, it's not overlooked. Edit: And, if the idea of now scouting doesn't already sound idiotic, look at every other pro. Sjow isn't top 10 in the world. He might be top ~500. None of those other players (except for the cheesers) don't scout. So would you rather emulate Sjow or Fruitdealer/Nestea/MC/IdrA/Jinro/everyothergoodplayer? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think it's rather on the disrespectful to call it "fucking terrible" when the person doing it has 80apm and somehow manages to win more tournaments than anyone out there. He may not be the best in the world but to win as much as he does he clearly must understand the game really well. Most likely better than most 250apm perfect macro good micro top players that get everyones respect but win a lot less. There is definitely a lot more to it and there's a lot of builds that benefit from it. For example if you're Terran your scouting SCV should never find a stargate against a decent Protoss and thus your early scout scv should give you zero info regarding void rays. However if instead of scouting early you scout later but build your factory in a position where you can float it over his base to see all that he is doing you will have saved minerals and know everything you need to know at the time you can know about it. This could be done with a build that is safe vs 4 gate allin for example, instead of a build that needs adjustment against a 4 gate allin. Add to this the fact that early scouting information is often misinterpreted or could be cleverly deceptive. | ||
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
What he's actually doing is delaying his "scout" until a time where the information he gains would be meaningful enough that he would change what he is doing to respond to it. The fact that he's doing that scouting with a unit that isn't a worker doesn't invalidate it. Ultimately though, if scouting is never bad, so why not worker scout with one of your initial 6? | ||
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kirkybaby
Korea (South)781 Posts
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knL
Germany400 Posts
And what Nazgul said is also very true. If you get cheesed with a hidden X your initial scv shouldnt find it or you opponent is just bad. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:18 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Oh ok scouting is bad. Everyone here please take note and start applying this. I wont but i would appreciate it if you guys would. This is where you go wrong incontrol. You first made a brilliant post describing why you should do it, but now that not everyone is agreeing you take it 1 step too far. This post makes the first post a lot less "good" (sorry for not thinking of a better word). Just let them think they figured out the game by not sending the scout, you explained it perfectly why it is important to do. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9392 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:19 cilinder007 wrote: it seems to be working quite fine for him so far, he won like every recent tournament he played, won the last 6 craft cups he played in so either people dont take advantage of his non scv scouting or they try and he still beats them regardles Because he does not face cheesy very often. But he kind of instaloses vs 6 pool or proxy gates. Anyway I still believe scannin is way overused, and when the meta games evolves, to hide tech more and only show a part of your army which that becoems aviavlabe to scan, scans will not be worth a mule for most of the early/early midgame. I realize that right now scans are cost effective, as people dont hide tech/hide units enough, but I dont wanna rely on builds that are based on my opp prob. not doing x or x. I wanna use build that have long-term potential. | ||
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loladin
Norway184 Posts
). It makes for fun reading. It's not that SjoW doesn't scout at all, he just doesn't do the 10-11-12 food SVC scout. There are positives and negatives with not doing that. It apparently works for him, it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do and he has the game figured out though. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
I think people need to ask themselves if they are willing to change their build according to the information they gain from early scouting. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9392 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think it's rather on the disrespectful to call it "fucking terrible" when the person doing it has 80apm and somehow manages to win more tournaments than anyone out there. He may not be the best in the world but to win as much as he does he clearly must understand the game really well. Most likely better than most 250apm perfect macro good micro top players that get everyones respect but win a lot less. There is definitely a lot more to it and there's a lot of builds that benefit from it. For example if you're Terran your scouting SCV should never find a stargate against a decent Protoss and thus your early scout scv should give you zero info regarding void rays. However if instead of scouting early you scout later but build your factory in a position where you can float it over his base to see all that he is doing you will have saved minerals and know everything you need to know at the time you can know about it. This could be done with a build that is safe vs 4 gate allin for example, instead of a build that needs adjustment against a 4 gate allin. ¨ Actually this is not entirely true, as you can gain info by seeing when he takes his second gas making it likely that he is doing vr og dt build. | ||
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Trentelshark
Canada385 Posts
Even knowing he doesn't scout, the frequency of proxy/all-in play is limited because if held off, it leaves you very vulnerable to counter-attack, or in the case of the all-in, the game is generally over. I agree with the menatlity of who cares if you lose to an all-in, unless in tournament play where he only has the BOX games to win. When I get rolled by all-ins I just GG and leave, I don't even waste my time trying to hold it off most of the time because it's a waste of my time in ladder where it simply doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
For the sake of God, of course he scouts. He uses scan and different kinds of units (Helions, Repears) as scouts just like everyone else. What he doesnt do though (Or atleast very rarily) is to scout with an initial SCV. I wish we could get SjoW in here to clear up some misunderstandings | ||
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
On December 14 2010 23:16 Brutus wrote: I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing. Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info. I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest. No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong? what the fuck...? bullshit? read the op and nazgul's post again, cus ur obviously missing the point. sjow does scout obviously. Everyone is talking about how he doesnt do the initial scv scout. he scouts later with either a helion or reaper a minute or two later. i've seen people try to cheese him and he either stops it with his BO, micro+buidling placement or with his micro + scvs. | ||
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