EPTReally, you do not need to see every building your opponent makes, every unit he has. Even spotting just a few, gives you a really good idea where he is, and what he is doing.
Sjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 2
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Goolpsy
Denmark301 Posts
Really, you do not need to see every building your opponent makes, every unit he has. Even spotting just a few, gives you a really good idea where he is, and what he is doing. | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:55 Herculix wrote: no, it's stupid, but he probably has a build order that he's determined won't change depending on his opponent's strategy, and therefore sees no need to scout. do NOT even give credit to not scouting as to call it a style, it's just stupidity. i don't care how good anyone is at the game. you're playing russian roulette if you don't scout at some point, end of story. The game is about winning, the smart guy is the guy who's winning. Again, I quote this because it's pretty god damn convincing statistics: Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-1928-1-0-DESC Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line. | ||
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:36 scion wrote: I don't see why you would ever forgo early scouting. You literally don't lose anything by doing it and the potential information you could gather are amazing. (early double gas, 2 rax before orbital, 2gate, proxy anything, cannon rush..) You also can get control of xel'naga watch tower or leave your worker in front of their base to see when they are moving out with what composition. There is absolutely no reason not to scout. ever. you lose mining time from that one scv, and it is pretty huge depending on how much of an advantage you want during the early game. You know when you send a worker into your opponent's mineral line and they attempt to surround it with all their workers but dont kill it? it drastically affects their build order (depending on what you consider drastic). for those of you who think this doesnt matter and doesn't really affect your bo's, try starting off a game where you just take one of your first 4 workers to scout and you will see how behind you will get from that one worker. this applies the same way up until you establish your bo, since sc's a game of seconds, any good player will want EVERY little advantage that he can get over his opponent. I remember when sjow started his trend of not scouting, and it was a direct result of the patch where terrans had to build a depot before a rax, and he thought that there's no need to scout any more since there would a lot less cheese. so, he'd rely on his solid bo's to encompass what cheeses were possible, while gaining a slight lead in economy. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:59 Gigaudas wrote: The game is about winning, the smart guy is the guy who's winning. Again, I quote this because it's pretty god damn convincing statistics: Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-1928-1-0-DESC Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line. i editted my post to better illustrate my point. and where did i say at any point that he isn't smart or a winner even in the original post? i said not scouting is stupid, which it is. the op is making an incorrect assumption that he doesn't scout which he does, he just probably scouts exactly when he needs to, which is in my edit. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
A lot of people get observers / hallucination / suicide OL just to feel safe and even with the new information gained, they still do not do anything different with their build. So for Sjow, why bother scouting at all if this is the case. He probably uses a very standard and safe build that is immune to most cheeses anyway. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway. | ||
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daxile
Canada829 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:02 Numy wrote: I think Sjow has tons of bad habits that people shouldn't really emulate. He is a really solid player though but think if he got rid of those habits he would be far better. His lack of scouting isn't a "bad habit", he deliberately does it because he has a reason. There are so many players who don't know why scouting is important yet they do it anyway simply because everyone tells them to. Scouting/non-scouting isn't the issue here, it's really why you play the way you play, SjoW has his own style and it's worked very well for him thus far. He's beaten so many top names with relative ease and if he believes non-scouting is the way to go for him, so be it. Keep in mind he develops his own builds, he puts a lot of thought into what he does. Many people just blindly do what they see in replays or see on a strategy forum without understanding why the build works. However, does this mean that players shouldn't scout? absolutely not, scouting hands down is one of the most vital aspects of the game. However if you're at a level where you can sack an aspect of the game to improve another aspect, then that's on you. For 95% of the people on TL here, scouting is a necessity. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture. You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway. What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms? I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol. | ||
Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
TvT -> Scout early enough to get SCV before the marine is out, check gas timings since proxy rax (jinro vs polt on jungle basin style) FE builds are super popular now. TvZ -> Scout so SCV arrives when your rax is finishing so you can harass with a bunker and force them to pull drones if you want, Probably the least important for real information as I'll play similiar vs 14 hatch and 14 pool, but benefit of forcing him to pull drones is enough (as long as he can't gas steal and force you to keep your marines in your base if you're not 2 raxing) You can also see any OLs that might be ackwardly placed that might be able to get sniped by marines. TvP -> Scout so SCV arrives before the stalker comes out and with time to see all pylons in the toss base and escape before dying. Pylon placement super important for later scouting, and where the chronoboost is being spent is something I like to know. I could probably say more, but it just seems to me worker scouting is essential. Just because a lot of lower level players foolishly scout for the sake of scouting doesn't mean scouting is bad. | ||
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xzidez
Sweden147 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote: What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on.... | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote: What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms? I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol. I think you've misunderstood - the OP is talking about the fact that SjoW doesn't scout with an SCV early on in the game. | ||
Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
Say you scout with a marine in tvt, it runs into 3 marines and some scv's, insta-dies. What do you have? Pretty much nothing, you lose the game. You sent out an scv as you start your gas or rax, you catch the proxy, build a bunker, and win the game. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:08 Gigaudas wrote: I think you've misunderstood - the OP is talking about the fact that SjoW doesn't scout with an SCV early on in the game. Oh. Yeah... Sorry. It's 14:10 and I haven't slept, sorry T_T | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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fjjotizz
Sweden153 Posts
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote: What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms? I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol. what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting. On December 14 2010 22:08 xzidez wrote: I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on.... | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:18 imyzhang wrote: what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting. actually at first i got the honest impression that that was what the thread was about. sounds crazy, but i've seen enough threads that make me go "WHAT?" to believe it. i do recall having watched sjows games where he will, for instance, scout with a hellion or something, but OP makes no mention of that. he simply asks if not scouting is the future, which is obviously never going to happen for reasons already stated. | ||
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bashalisk
102 Posts
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