EPTSjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 4
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Boxxer
83 Posts
On December 14 2010 23:16 Brutus wrote: I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing. Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info. I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest. No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong? At the start of the game all that is going to get scouted is either cheese or a standard build really, very rarely anything else. Sjow is confident about stopping cheese if it comes so I'd imagine that's one reason why he doesn't see any value of SCV scouting. If you watch him he always marine scouts so he will catch any FE builds when he scouts then. His decision making is the thing that keeps him so good, he knows exactly what he needs to do at all times. You don't understand the game the way Sjow does like Nazgul said. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
However, if I had a build that I thought was good versus cheese, standard play and what not without much adaption, then obviously there is no reason to scout. Only question remains, is there such a build. | ||
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mindspike
Canada1902 Posts
Theres so many BO wins in this game that it makes absolutely no sense not to at least try to scout. | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
I guess terran have it easier in that department though =/ | ||
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Sad[Panda]
United States458 Posts
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
Sjow scouts. A lot. But he doesn't randomly throw away units to overscout like many players do. | ||
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Nihilite
Netherlands61 Posts
On top of that you can ask yourself how necessary is scouting when you basically open up with 1-1-1 or atleast a barracks/factory build most games (which he seems to do). I suppose he could get 6 pooled, other then that sending the initial scouting scv barely has any use. Hellions allow you to cost effectively defend vs zealots/slowlings (especially with how he pulls his hellions behind his mineral line and lets his scv tank zerglings for the hellions to kill them, pretty neat trick). Terran also has the advantage of a scan for detection, you don't need to go down a certain tech path (robo) or 'rush' for lair tech to avoid being killed by cloaked units (DT/Banshee). Also some people in this thread seem to think it's impossible to come back from the part where your opponent finishes a building without you scouting for it. For example: say you open with hellion/marines as terran, and your opponent gets roaches. Yes both your units are now 'countered' by one unit of his, but it's not like he can instantly walk to your base and go kill you. Marines actually do pretty decent against roaches, and with a bunker you can definitly hold off. And if you play aggresive and scout the first few roaches destroying one of your harrasing units/holding of your attack, you can easily prepare by throwing up a tech lab on a factory/barracks and start producing tanks/marauders. Just my 2cents on him not sending an scv scout.  | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
He can win games with it, but if he scouted in many of his games he would have won more. He can get away w/o scout is because: 1. When laddering at top you tend to play an opponent over and over again, you know all of his tactics, his habit...so no scout is kind of ok. 2. EU server is quite standard somehow. People don't cheese or allin that much. Don't try to copy him, cos no scout is bad, very bad. | ||
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Precipice
United States121 Posts
1. Sjow once commented that the reason he doesn't scout early in the game is that it does not help at all. "Cheese is going to be hard to stop whether or not I see it." 2. What happens when Sjow uses the metagame of not scouting to randomly scout you? You might've just lost $$$ going for a cheese. 3. Many cheese or all in builds can be held without scouting, including proxy 2 gate. 4. If a top tier player with a long list of tournament wins thinks he can hold your all in or cheese without scouting, do you have the balls to try to prove him wrong? | ||
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Boxxer
83 Posts
On December 14 2010 23:54 Fa1nT wrote: I play zerg, thus scouting is not "something helps", it's 100% ****ing REQUIRED to survive. I guess terran have it easier in that department though =/ Please don't turn the thread into "Zerg have everything harder than Terran!" because nobody wants to hear it and it's also not true. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:00 Boxxer wrote: Please don't turn the thread into "Zerg have everything harder than Terran!" because nobody wants to hear it and it's also not true. Everything? no. Scouting? Yes. It's simple really. Reactionary race, dawg. How about you don't turn this into a meta-complain about complaining topic. I am not crying, just stating facts about zerg having to scout to win. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not. | ||
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Cephei
United Kingdom79 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:02 Fa1nT wrote: Everything? no. Scouting? Yes. It's simple really. Reactionary race, dawg. How about you don't turn this into a meta-complain about complaining topic. I am not crying, just stating facts about zerg having to scout to win. Jeez you Zergs have to pop up everywhere with your whines don't you.... | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote: This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all. Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not. Good to see a high level player speak out against this. ^__^ | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
Although I also don't agree with the idea of not scouting to save money because I feel the early game knowledge is worth far more than one SCV mining I wouldn't try calling Sjow's skills into question | ||
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